Yoshi General Discussion Thread!!

[GOD!]

So Yoshi players, I decided (and got the approval from the powers that be) that the Yoshi boards needs one of these, seeing as practically every other character has one.

Plus this sub-forum is like a ghost town.

I just started playing Yoshi the other day because fox and sheik are kind of boring. Plus every character knows how to play against them. But NO one knows how to play against yoshi I bet, so I think he'll be fun to play around with.

Approaches are something I need to work on. bair to utlit seems to be a good option (fumi used it so there), but besides that I don't know what else works. Running grab is punishable, plus yoshi is slow. DJC nair or bair seem good too. And is run -> hold down -> dtilt/dsmash a good approach?

Lastly: colors? I think pink gives the opponent false confidence, while red is so blinding that it makes yoshi hard to look at.

And if you are reading this, you are the resistance (name that reference) ..

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't know anything about him but the other day I tried using him in a friendly and failed miserably because I tried to do DJC Bairs and fancy waveland stuff. Eventually gave up on it entirely and just did Nair and jump away DJC back Fair and SH Bairs away from them, and an assload of spaced WD / dash cancel D-tilt. It seemed to work much better. And WD back F-tilt / D-tilt.

This post doesn't really have a purpose, I just felt like saying my Yoshi is terrible. Because it is.

 

[rustedfencepost]

i dont have much to say except djc fair approach because it has a bigger hit box and can lead into somthing else. as for the colour issue i would go blue so when you go Final Destination you will blend in slightly

 

[GOD!]

I feel like there is no yoshi player who has changed his metagame since fumi who, for all I know, hasn't played in 2 years.
He has to have some use. Maybe as a falcon or marth counterpick? He has super armor, eggs, combos off his throws.. just give him a blaster or sword and he'd be top tier.
And he has a great taunt.

 

[DstyCube]

I'm not so sure of a marth cp... he doesn't really have anything to bring to the matchup really. Marth's range > Yoshi's. You may be able to djc through attacks, but I wouldn't say it's enough to make him a cp.

A note on spacing: Try keep your head facing away from opponents when you can; it makes up like half of your hit box.

WD dsmash/fsmash can work as decent approaches.
Dsmash: wd with back facing opponent, and throw out a pivot dsmash, it covers a bit of range, great speed.
Fsmash: If you can space it right, you can avoid many attacks with the start up animation and retaliate.
Eggs: If they give you room for it throw them out there. If you hit them it gives you time to approach, keep the pressure up after that and try to keep them on the defensive.

You can also smash out of rolls... not that you would use that often...

 

[Pakman]

Subscribing...

I find that it is hard to have a defensive strategy with Yoshi. His out of Shield game sucks because it doesn't exist. So I resort to being super aggressive and end up getting destroyed by shield grabs and dash dancing because most of my approaches are from the air. Asside from spacing, what is the best way to slow Yoshi down and deal with these things?

Sometimes against a shielding opponent I will throw an egg while landing so it hits hit if he grabs, otherwise I try to neutral B. Sometimes I attack the shield and ftilt hoping they hit grab late (works a lot more then you would think).

Anyway, I still get beat a lot. Any help?

 

[Rin10-10]

Counter pick against a marth? Don't get knocked off the stage and it might work. Of course, nearly everything Marth does breaks the cute little super armor you get from the DJ, so trying to use a really fancy DJC usually just sends you flying with no jump. Plus the sword eats your priority. No nair camping here.

Falcon I can see working a little better, but like Pakman said, Yoshi doesn't have a good defensive game, and Falcon can out manuver you. Eggs can keep an idiot falcon at bay, but the dair and knee eat eggs for breakfast, so he just throws one out there on the approach. On the bright side, dsmash makes a decent edgeguard (so freakin' hard to tech - and even then it leaves them open to do it again most of the time) until you train them to sweetspot, and then you can get the ledge really quickly with the DJ. It's give and take, but it's a fun matchup at least.

As for colors ... Blue, obviously. It's Boshi. You want to instill FEAR into your opponents! And now that you mention it. Yoshi ... with a sword. I'd run away.

 

[rustedfencepost]

if you have good egg skils (like me lol) yo can do a run in jumping egg to get through his sword and quickly pull of some combo that will make people j!zz their pants

 

[rustedfencepost]

all you need to kill a marth is to trick him into a f smash (mabye power shielding it or somthin like that) then pull of a combo that makes everyone j!zz their pants. 1 more thing( off topic) but the only reason marth has a sword is to make up for his lack of PEN!S !!!!! pwned

edit: oops my bad double post ignore the first one

 

[DstyCube]

lol how can that work? marth's fsmash would destroy the egg and yourself as you jump in. Power shielding with yoshi does not let you bypass the shield release animation.

Yoshi lacks combo's on marth, the entire matchup is based on how well you can space.

 

[Dogysamich]

Subscribing...

I find that it is hard to have a defensive strategy with Yoshi. His out of Shield game sucks because it doesn't exist. So I resort to being super aggressive and end up getting destroyed by shield grabs and dash dancing because most of my approaches are from the air. Asside from spacing, what is the best way to slow Yoshi down and deal with these things?
?

Well, from my experience with yoshi and playing yoshi players (yes, i've played good competent yoshi players) I'd imagine you want your defense to be based on evasion and/or evasion/zoning. (Read: N***A DONT BLOCK).

The general standpoint, in smash (along with every other fighting game, actually) you generally have 3 kinds of defense; blocking (shielding for us), evasion, zoning (which is sometimes misworded as spacing around here).

As yoshi, like you said (and we all know), yoshi's shield game is horrid. He cant do much from it. You can lightshield and slide away (which is actually a great tool), but your punishment options MUST have 2nd shield option tacked onto it. (i.e. spotdodge -> downsmash, roll -> f.smash. Why I call that a 2nd shield option goes into my "philosophy". Dont read into it too much)

So with that being said, you obviously want to avoid this one. Moving is always your best option because well, yoshi is actually very **** mobile. Has a regular jump speed with a decent wavedash, a special double jump to greatly change angles of attack or routes of escape. Along with that, he has attacks that evade in themself, F.smash, U.Smash and d.tilt.

What happens is, you wind up having to play yoshi differnetly than the cookie cutter method. (Surprise surprise). Like, with luigi, where you would shieldgrab something, as yoshi you have to think to pivot grab/WD back f.smash, etc etc.

As for zoning itself, yoshi's aight at it, but he's not great. Eggs are great for controlling arcs, or a trap for anybody who tries to call you and run in. (lets just say eggz to make him show up. XD), b.air and d.tilt are both great for keeping people out, fast, safe, decent reward for both. Beyond that, yoshi's zoning isnt spectacular or anything.

---

tl:dr. Stop putting your **** shield up and move.

 

[Shiri]

Or you can supershield, but that's harder and doesn't work consistently against some characters.

Yeah, moving and abusing your tilt range is the best way to slow the pace of a match and try to regain control of things. Using Egg Lay is also a great reset, especially if you get blocked a lot by passive-aggressive players.

When it comes to projectiles, remember that Yoshi eats projectiles for brunch with jabs, tilts, and crouch powershielding. They shouldn't force the pace of a match (for the most part) if you're on your game and know which ones to cancel out (and how) and which ones to avoid.

 

[rustedfencepost]

dsty if he does fsmash the egg then your supposed to go in after, not egg and jump in at the same time, that would just be silly (he says as he drinks laundry soap to keep his stomach clean) and you can hit quite quickly after a power shield and here is a bit of demonstartion by fumi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGd_MPsAsvc

 

[DstyCube]

There's much better things you could do than a laggy egg toss if you're going to punish them for a missed fsmash.

That is not power shielding, that is jumping out of the invincibility frames prior to shielding which is beyond impossible to do in an actual match, fumi doesnt even do it in actual matches. Very impractical.

 

[rustedfencepost]

when did the egg become the punishment? any ways i done arguing because i dont like being a$$, so i apologize dsty for being so stuborne and for any inconvienence i may have caused dsty and anyone else who read my odd posts, and now i will use a big words in a random sentance to make myself sound smart.

it is odd how fox and marth are juxtaposed on the tier list, but dont misconstrue what i say, i do not think of one as more of an apotheosis. i hope this paragraph dosnt make you feel maladroit, because all yoshi players are camaraderies to me :D
please dont stop posting on this thread i just wanted to sound smart

 

[DstyCube]

Sorry if I gave the impression that i was mad or something lol. Don't take it personally, it's just constructive criticism.

 

[Rin10-10]

Haha ... find someone who can predictably perfect sheild things with yoshi, and you've got someone with tech skill being wasted on this silly green dinosaur.

Though in my experience, an egg hit close to your person is a decent (not wonderful - mind you) setup for some follow-up air moves. It might be an okay punish option for a low damage marth ... if it isn't alltogether too slow ...

And me, I never manage to avoid the f-smash in the first place. Ouch.

 

[Jihnsius]

And me, I never manage to avoid the f-smash in the first place. Ouch.

Space and short throw eggs. Short thrown eggs give you plenty of time to followup if they hit.

 

[rustedfencepost]

my power shields are pretty bad,its only about %80-%85 successful. is it true that on the 1st frame of an air dodge that you can power shield? my friend said it was possible but i think he was just messin with me

 

[Shiri]

That is not power shielding, that is jumping out of the invincibility frames prior to shielding...

True.

...which is beyond impossible to do in an actual match, fumi doesnt even do it in actual matches. Very impractical.

False.

That game was fun. Let's play again! :D

But really, supershielding has been a staple of my game ever since I've learned how to incorporate it. It makes LIFE easier and is probably more important than mastery of the DJC.

 

[DstyCube]

I want to see it! I often block a few hits with it prior to shielding or dodging, but I don't know what frames you are able to jump out of it.

 

[Shiri]

It works like this.

On its own, you have six frames to both absorb hits and jump. These six frames come in at the very beginning of the shield animation. So as soon as the R trigger is pulled and the animation starts, you have six frames to absorb hits or jump.

If you absorb a hit during the first four frames of the shielding animation (1-4), you can jump out the frame after you are hit since there is no stun associated with this type of invulnerability.

If you absorb a hit during the last next two frames of the shielding animation (5-6), you will experience stun. Whether this is hitstun or the type of stun you would experience on block is something I never tested, but you have to wait for that period of stun to finish and attempt your jump with what seems like a 1 frame window. In a way this is good and bad. The stun blatantly lets you know the timing for the jump. The timing for the jump is small, however.

The entire six frame window can be used to completely avoid moves that have no stun association with them (grabs, for instance). You will be able to immediately jump out once you have interacted with a grab hitbox and will not fall prey to that same hitbox thanks to the game engine's rule: you cannot be affected by the same hitbox more than once. Since the grab hitbox, in this example, has already come in contact with the invulnerable Yoshi, you can safely jump out even while the grab hitbox is still active and not get grabbed.

I will admit the the latter window, frames 5 and 6, don't lend to my argument that supershielding is a practical choice, but the 4 frame window with virtually instant jumping and a 6 frame grab invulnerability window, in my opinion at least, more than justify the integration and use (or even abuse) of supershielding.

If I somehow manage to get some footage of myself playing this terrible game, you'll get to see what makes Link a fairly advantaged matchup and what makes Sheik closer to even than ever before.

 

[Jihnsius]

The entire six frame window can be used to completely avoid moves that have no stun association with them (grabs, for instance). You will be able to immediately jump out once you have interacted with a grab hitbox and will not fall prey to that same hitbox thanks to the game engine's rule: you cannot be affected by the same hitbox more than once. Since the grab hitbox, in this example, has already come in contact with the invulnerable Yoshi, you can safely jump out even while the grab hitbox is still active and not get grabbed.

This sounds too good to be true. Anyone manage to put this to good use yet?

Does supershield have the same properties as powershield in that you can do any ground attack instantly without dropping your shield?

 

[DstyCube]

I've only done it in practice so far...

I don't think you can do ground attacks out of supershield because the game registers you are still sheilding. If you hit either left, right, or down on the control stick will result in a roll or spot dodge (jab results in a grab). Which leaves you the only option to 'jump' out of shield like other characters. Since you're not actually in your shield yet, the game allows for this jump to cancel the shield animation.

I think you can Usmash out of supershield, but that's about it.

 

[rustedfencepost]

I've only done it in practice so far...

I don't think you can do ground attacks out of supershield because the game registers you are still sheilding. If you hit either left, right, or down on the control stick will result in a roll or spot dodge (jab results in a grab). Which leaves you the only option to 'jump' out of shield like other characters. Since you're not actually in your shield yet, the game allows for this jump to cancel the shield animation.

I think you can Usmash out of supershield, but that's about it.

what if you used the C-stick?

 

[DstyCube]

C-stick serves the same functions as the control stick when shielding.

 

[Shiri]

You can jump and grab.

Jumping, however, can be canceled into many things. Don't forget that you can also wavedash out of supershields.

Sometimes it's best to just supershield something and drop shield into an attack or maneuver. Sometimes it's better to wavedash out or jump into an attack. The proper procedure generally comes to you with experience.

P.S. - Jihnsius, supershielding is how I avoid Sheik grabs. Too impractical against Marth and Fox, however.

P.P.S. - I'm also not saying that supershielding solves everything, but that people should exploit it and experiment with it more; it's a really good tech that nobody used back when playing Yoshi in tournament was possible.

 

[Jihnsius]

I played with it for about an hour and came to the conclusion that the timing is much too small and fast to be useful on reaction. If you knew something was coming and had the quarter second to mentally prepare for it and have practiced the timing it would be an amazing substitute for spotdodge, but otherwise nay.

 

[rustedfencepost]

I played with it for about an hour and came to the conclusion that the timing is much too small and fast to be useful on reaction. If you knew something was coming and had the quarter second to mentally prepare for it and have practiced the timing it would be an amazing substitute for spotdodge, but otherwise nay.

you not alowed to come to conclusions unless you have played for 3 weeks strait, if you need to take a piss do it in a bottle or your pants, and if you didnt get it im joking of course. if you had the tech skill of silent wolf, M2K,fumi (had to put a yoshi in there)with a splash of ken's D I because i felt like it, and mabye a knee duct taped to his face then it would be 100% but that would just be messed up.......and pretty cool. but i do not suggest it becase you may get aressted.but in all seriousness, i agree completely, the timing is way to small to be put to amazing use but is definetly somthing that should be attempted more. now have a cookie

and here is a monkey :monkey:

 

[Mind Trick]

While a different game, parry in ssb64 is very similiar to supershielding.
As you can see here demonstrated by Sossy, it can definitely be very usefull to implement into your game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZjByn4hd3U

He does it at least 10 times here. Now it's probably a bit harder to anticipate in Melee to use it than it is in 64, but it definitely has potential. I'm not saying though I myself can put supershielding to good use (yet). The only times I've done it were completely by accident and weren't followed up by anything. Then again... it might be easier to just learn a secondary character than to implement supershielding :/

 

[Shiri]

Agreed.

Just play Fox.

It's much easier and you'll win a lot more.

 

[Mind Trick]

Certain (top/high tier) matchups are definitely manageable though, like Marth & Sheik (in PAL :D). Although Fox, Falco, Peach, Samus, Falcon (with a good techchase game) is just... ugggghgghg, makes me sad when I have to choose my fox

 

[GOD!]

I have come to the conclusion that:

Yoshi sucks. I can't play him, it isn't even fun anymore. I tried. Top through mid tiers, I'm back forever.

 

[Pakman]

Eggm put up some decent yoshi vids. Check em out.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheEggm

 

[The Phenom]

hmmm...So we all know HugS and how he would Ftilt his legs right? So I'm going to adapt this play style of his to my Yoshi; hopefully I'll find success out of it. I'm thinking to use it threw out matches I think it could prove applicable towards(for some reason I think this would be fun and interesting to do).
-So basically I want to shape my Yoshi to move like HugS's Samus; I think it would best fit my style to/make me a little different from the rest of other Yoshi mains.

ideas/thoughts/opinions guys?

 

[DstyCube]

I try to use ftilt quite a bit, it's a pretty quick move. At higher percents (maybe 70? might be character specific) you can bust this out and it cant be crouch canceled, good for starting combos on fastfallers.

 

[The Phenom]

thanks for stating the 70% can't CC against specific characters. Since you use Ftilt yourself plenty of times, which one do you find using more of? A diagonal or a horizontal tilt.

 

[DstyCube]

I guess I normally throw out horizontal ones, but it depends on the situation. Angling it down can catch stop some recoveries that are going towards the ledge (ie. fox illusion).

 

[Mind Trick]

SUPER LION 4
Hosted by porc, Salepâte and Slhoka
August 7 - 9th
Lyon, France

MELEE SINGLES : 113 entrants

Bracket

33: Mind Trick

uggghhh...........
Im gonna be focusing on my falco/fox from now on I think :/

 

[YOSHIDO]

Ohhh snap, people still post in the yoshi forums. Hey everyone, shout outs to dsty, dogy and shiri. But yeah just listen to what they said. I don't know if someone posted this already. But I've found neutral jabs to be affective as well in zoning people. And even though the whole supershielding might be hard, it is sooo useful. I can't say that i've exploited it completely. But i have been able to use the invincibility frames of the shield to avoid getting grabbed by marth. It's also helped against punk tale moves that are hard to get around. Good luck with playing yoshi.