X or Y? - PT Social

[Youngster Joey]

is squirtle a very technical character? i see a lot of hydro u smash and grabbing when i watch videos

 

[Bomber7]

is squirtle a very technical character? i see a lot of hydro u smash and grabbing when i watch videos

I wouldn't consider him as technical as let's say Link or TL. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest, I'd give squirtle a 1. TL/Link being a 10.

 

[Myollnir]

I totally disagree, Squirtle is quite technical. I don't see how Link is more technical than Squirtle. TL's ATs are really easy (afaik) but I can understand your point of view you're pretty much forced to know them and use them correctly, while it's not compulsory with Squirtle.

And if TL and Link are 10, where are the Ice Climbers? 11?

 

[Youngster Joey]

i dont really consider TL or Link technical.. idk tho i dont use them. i mean like diddy is what i consider one of the most technical characters because of his banana slide thing. basically a character that uses a lot of AT's. i thought squirtle would be at least an 8 since i see a ton of tech skill in videos i think

 

[Rizen]

ICs and Squirtle are much less technical than Link (and TL).
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10503832&postcount=2

 

[Myollnir]

Do you really want me to link you the desync thread and sopo chaingrab thread?

 

[Youngster Joey]

rizen dont make me go wanna main link. how many of his techs are actually necessary? i know the auto arrow thing and the c4. i know the ledge tricks too. actually dont answer this. i dont wanna get into link. or ic. i kinda mean more awkward button combinations to do a technique. i feel like dsync is timing so not a weird button combo but i could be wrong

 

[Rizen]

actually dont answer this.

Okay.

______________________
ICs are more about rhythm, so I'm told. But grab>rhythm CG to take a stock is a lot easier than successfully working with bombs.

 

[Bomber7]

ICs and Squirtle are much less technical than Link (and TL).
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10503832&postcount=2

Thank you, because I was about to do it myself if people kept doubting. I know what I'm talking about.

Spoiler

For once.

Also, Link and TL maybe technical, but they are pretty fun. You can pull off some incredible stuff with them which could be defined as combos. Yes they have their flaws, but it's so satisfying when you set your opponent up for sexy combos with projectiles to finish off with some sort of killing move.

 

[Myollnir]

Hey, since there no activity atm, let's talk about some matchups:

MK : I feel like it's almost impossible to win against him. However, I realized that starting with Charizard was better (at least for me) so maybe I'll find the MU a bit easier, but with Squirtle and Ivysaur there's just no hope... I HATE MK >.<

Marth : It's not that bad! The more I play with good Marths (Leon, Deimos, etc...), the more I think it's not -3, but -2. Charizard probably goes even with him, RS is just so good against his F-air. Our ground game helps a lot, too.
Squirtle **** him when he gets a grab (U-throw -> Juggle. He's like, super easy to juggle) but after ~30%, it's hopeless unless the stage allows you to survive the spike (YI, CS (1st part), etc...).
Ivysaur is bad, but you can still make something happen.
This is my favorite MU though and I know it by heard so I may be biased...

DDD : I don't see how it's -3, seriously. Charizard ***** him with FT and if he chooses to camp you with Waddle Dees/Doos, you can just Jab them away to refresh your moves. If you play right it's probably going to be a very long first stock...
Squirtle is okay, Ivysaur, not so bad but avoid him. Probably -2, but seriously I don't see how it can be -3.

ICs : I don't know yet... I feel like if you're really precise and make no mistakes after separating them, you can kill Nana really easily with both 3 Pokémons. Reflex made me realize that you don't want to rack up damage quickly and you need to be really patient. A mistake will ruin your switch strategy. I'm starting to like this MU a lot with Charizard... Again, you can Jab the Ice Blocks (if they're desynched and spam it, just Jab1 then Jab2 then Jab3 so you refreshed 3 moves! )
I hesitating between -2 and -1.

What do you think about these matchups? Or others!

 

[Rizen]

MK has the god-tier shuttle loop. He's fast with crazy long disjointed reach which shuts down squirtle bad. All the pokemon are easy to gimp. -3

Marth is a fun MU. He has grab release combos on PT, right? Char can space him okay and Squirt has enough speed and a good grab game to not be dominated too bad. Ivy gets pressured and gimped; he (Ivy) needs good reads but doesn't have the speed/mobility to keep up. -2
(for reference, Link is -2 vs Marth)

DDD: I don't have much DDD/PT experience, tbh. Based on when I've used other characters, I can see this being a -3. DDD's shield grab is just insane and he can Bair wall too. DDD out camping us forces an approach. He has the air-grab suck and swallowcide to make things worse. If Wolf loses -3, PT could easily be -3 too.

vs ICs, Squirt has little attack range, Ivy has bad mobility and is slower and Char is big and loses his safe grab game because there are 2 ICs. PT switching unsafely means a free grab and stock loss. I can easily see this as -3 but IDK. Not -1 though, it's at least -2.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Rock Smash loses to Marth F-Air, though, as far as I'm aware. Where are you placing it to hit him?

 

[Bomber7]

Marth : It's not that bad!

I've been saying this for years!

I've found that watergun is a REALLY useful move in this match-up. It allows you to take away his advantage of having a farther reach. Not 100% obviously, but with watergun, you hold him in place while he's throwing out his moves which allows you to easily counter attack. Especially with a fair happy Marth player, which is what I'm use to playing, a patient game and well placed watergun really makes the difference.

 

[T-block]

I agree Marth is not as bad as we used to think, Myo.

Marth's f-air does "beat" Rock Smash though imo, just because it comes out so much faster.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wolf only goes -3 with Dedede because of an easy-to-make-happen INFINITE. Dedede doesn't have anything like that on us.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

I'd like so much to join in on this discussion.
Unfortunately, 90% of the time, I have no idea what I'm talking about...

 

[Rizen]

Unfortunately, 90% of the time, I have no idea what I'm talking about...

That's only stopped 7% of the non-mute population in the last 50 years from talking.
/jk

 

[Myollnir]

When I see marth jumping, or predict it, or when he's going to land, I just dash into his F-air range (but still space it so I don't get hit with Zard, I just want him to break the rock, which appears on frame 3 so it's faster than his F-air ) and rock smash.
It'll beat his f-air if he doesn't retreat (I often get the sweetspot) and if he spaces perfectly and retreat, he can't punish us because of the shards. Besides, he can't retreat forever. We also have shield and U-smash to beat his F-airs.
Also, provided both characters do it at the same time and you space it well, uncharged watergun will beat Marth's F-air because it'll hit his hand.
That's'pretty cool since you'll often find yourself charging it to help your spacing so you can trick your opponent if he tries to punish you when you charge it.
Oh and use it in the air so it can't clank (except vs projectile priority) because it behaves like an aerial.

 

[xzx]

Hi PTs! We Warios are currently discussing you in our MU-thread, so an input + a ratio would be appreciated!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15094235#post15094235

 

[Bomber7]

Why bother coming here when you have Luis in the same board? He knows those PT and Wario way better than any one of us.

 

[dettadeus]

Got a balancing question for anyone who plays Ivysaur:

If you were to buff Ivysaur to around Falco's level, what sorts changes would you make? Feel free to change some attacks entirely if you'd like.
Assume Fatigue is removed, first and foremost.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Got a balancing question for anyone who plays Ivysaur:

If you were to buff Ivysaur to around Falco's level, what sorts changes would you make? Feel free to change some attacks entirely if you'd like.
Assume Fatigue is removed, first and foremost.

Jesus. Well, I'll keep it simple (tweaking current moves).

Fix some or all of his grabs. Make the grab "taller," and cut out some of the startup frames.

Add one more frame of invulnerability to Neutral-B's startup. Make the startup hit capable of hitting opponents even if they're not grounded.

Cut out some of Up-B's startup frames and allow Ivysaur to "steer" left or right during it, like Olimar can.

Increase the damage of B-Air. Decrease the landing lag on F-Air. Decrease the endlag on U-Smash to make it safe on shield or cut out some of the startup frames to make it a little faster to come out.

Give Razor Leaf laser priority (so attacks can't clank with it) and cut out some of the startup frames.

Make Jab actually combo correctly (you can currently shield between hits). Raise the damage of Jab as a whole. Do both things with D-Tilt, as well (make it so you can't SDI over the first hit).

Make either F-Tilt or D-Tilt a safe poke on shield.

Allow Ivysaur to "steer" left and right throughout the entirety of the D-Air animation.

That might be a little overkill, but, I'm not sure. Some of the changes are more important than others, like the Bullet Seed tweak. It's hard to compare new ideas with the extremes of Falco's moveset. Ivysaur has some really useful tools in concept, but little unfortunate aspects of them make them work much worse than they could.

 

[T-block]

i think

jigglypuff aerial mobility
olimar-like up-b
much faster f-air (like marth f-air fast in terms of startup, cooldown can stay)
b-air doing ~4% for each hit

would be enough to make her a really solid character

 

[Myollnir]

Better aerial mobility, more damage on B-air, less startup and cooldown on SideB (+transcendant priority ) would make him a really nice character imo.

 

[Bomber7]

I'm just happy Reflex listed most the stuff I was thinking of. Especially listing the stuff about the her grab, because that was the first thing that came to mind.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Thing is, there are so many things that could improve her as a character, but I wanted to preserve her general feel.

Jigglypuff aerial mobility certainly doesn't do that.

Bullet Seed tweak would be amazing, since characters would have a significantly harder time juggling Ivysaur, and shorthop Bullet Seed would become a very strong out-of-shield option as well as a generally good poke.

 

[Bomber7]

Ivy's too fat to have jiggly aerial mobility. :I

 

[Rizen]

^But he floats down like a leaf.

 

[dettadeus]

Thanks for the suggestions!

And when I said to Falco's level, I meant to his level of tournament viability. Didn't have to have anything to do with Falco's moveset itself, just his high/top tier placement but not quite being MK/Oli/Icies level.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Right, but, it's difficult to compare the "goodness" of wildly different moves and properties without seeing them applied firsthand, you know?

 

[T-block]

wouldn't preserve the feel, but it would capture what i feel is her character design, just done correctly

 

[Youngster Joey]

i was good with bowser (still am for my level) and i found that any mu is possible. just that some characters have tricks on certain characters. its really easy to bait an mk into bowsers side b. so with PT why cant we bait an mk into something? im not very experienced with PT but i feel theres a way through everything. i saw someone use squirtle on an mk and almost win. it might have been reflex but i dont really remember. so we can compete with squirtle and charizard. that seems good enough to hold our ground on mk.

ic's is dont get grabbed. thats hard to do but thats the main goal. once again im not experienced so i cant really help.

i got nothing on DDD either

wow i just responded to something on a different page.. it might seem like i randomly listed a few mu's

 

[Rizen]

i found that any mu is possible.

Any MU is possible but bad (-3, -4) MUs have incredibly hard disadvantages if the opponent knows what they're doing. In tourney settings with stage strikes, CPs and best of 3 games (or 5) it's even harder to go 1 character. That's the idea behind character/stage CPing, not that it matters too much vs MK.
People have done a lot with non-high tiers (you mentioned Reflex) but going all 1 low tier or even mid-tier character to win a good sized tourney is not realistic.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A matchup thatrequires the opponent to make obvious mistakes is only realistically possible with a large gap in skill and/or matchup experience. That's not something you can count on in high-level play, so it's not something you should get comfortable with in mid-level play.

 

[Myollnir]

Below -2 it should not be possible imo.

 

[Youngster Joey]

does PT really have any all out -3 or -4? like chant charizard and squirtle handle a lot?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dedede, Meta Knight, Falco, and Marth are all pretty terrible. -3, for sure. Mayyyyybe -2 for Dedede, but it's doubtful.

 

[Youngster Joey]

well i just went through my first day maining PT. i learned so much! i can see how those mus suck for ivy. maybe charizard. does squirtle do well in those? he seems so small and hard to hit. maybe i can see it but i feel like squirtle is a really slippery character and can possibly help the mu a lot on his own. then again it is hard to get a safe switch :/

 

[Tesh]

Reflex how to I decimate toon link with pokemon trainer.

 

[Bomber7]

Reflex how to I decimate toon link with pokemon trainer.

use squirtle to penetrate the wall of projectiles, be careful of u-tilt, be careful you can get KO'd early. You have an advantage of being a small target.

Avoid using Charizard because you will get walled so hard by projectiles.

Ivysaur might be ok, not as big of a target as charizard and has the KO power to take out TL. Use sparingly.