Q&A "Worthy Opponents Indeed!" - Match-up Q&A Thread

[AC NuBurs]

Thanks man, I actually get to play against the said rob in a few online matches soon, so armed with your advice I will do my best.

Its a small tourney im going to, but im happy to rep robin.

 

[Dathx]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hVmblcX5ZdZFD9rdjRkxYuM5_2bE_jHqn1mTDYhkf_E/edit?usp=sharing

I finally completed/updated it! My fabled Robin MU list spreadsheet that I have mentioned sometimes. It's still not completed yet though because I don't have all the experience in every MU, but its pretty close, and I have most of the important MUs down. The characters towards the top tend to be a little less explained that the characters towards the bottom because I got more involved the further I got in, but I tried to go back and add info in, so sometimes that's just all I know.

Some basic keys/code deciphering:

-The MU % is how I think Robin does in the MU, as an example vs. Bowser it is 60-40 Robin.
-Every "bad MU" (anything less than 50) is in red
-Every MU I am too unfamiliar with to say anything confidently is in grey, I do put my best guess and what I do know down sometimes
-The "comments" and "extra notes" sections are pretty much random info. There is no organization on what information is where. That will have to be on a later patch
-The customs section is how much worse/better the MU gets with customs on. Since customs is not a format I am too familiar with, I can definitely expect people to disagree. My region does not like them, and I honestly don't see them returning. Red (bad) --> Yellow (neutral) --> Green (good) ---> Blue (this can save the MU)
-The XP section is what notable/non-notable players I have played that play those characters in tournament.
-"Rando" means random players with little skill. "Half-rando" means players who are known within our region, but are only decent. "Quarter-rando" means someone that is really good in our region, but you have probably never heard of them. If they are named then they are someone notable, and people outside our region can recognize them.

I think that covers everything for that...

Anyway, this is still a work in progress, so I'm looking for criticism/praise/comments or whatever. However, I do want these to be CONSTRUCTIVE. Do not just say "lawl we lose to sonic hard". I want not only reasons, but also WHO you got that MU experience from and I am going to weigh it against who I got that MU experience from. Videos help. As an example, if you tell me there's a good Lucas player in your region who consistently top 8's at locals and he BODIES you and you kind of know why, I'll probably take your word for it because I don't have any experience. But if you try to say that a decent ZSS in your region who sometimes gets top 8 is free to your Robin I'm going to shrug it off in most cases.

I think that's it...if there's any questions please do ask away and I can try to elaborate a bit more. There's also a good chance I have video footage of a specific MU if you ask. And if I don't have video footage, I can setup something with players to get video footage, so if you want like general MU ideas or don't understand my weird writing, then ask away.

Halp senpais: @ Raziek @ PK Gaming @ Mr. Johan @ Zareidriel and I'm probably missing a lot more important people because I don't know anyone here but I want everyone's input ;_;

This will maybe turn into a guide eventually? I dunno. Maybe its own topic? I put it here for now cause it made the most sense which is why I tagged people so people realize it is a thing.

 

[Zareidriel]

Holy wow @ Dathx that is an amazing body of work! You obviously put a lot of time and effort into this. I've been reading it for the last 20 minutes. I mostly agree with you, as a whole, but here's a couple things I think I disagree on:

The Zero Suit Samus matchup. I've played our resident power-ranked ZSS a number of times (#4 in the state) as well as various randos and I disagree that we lose the matchup. Rather than Arcfire being useless, I think that it can be very useful when used aggressively rather than as a spacing/neutral tool. I think the key to this one is to go right in and get your hands dirty. If we try to out-camp her she'll be able to use her setups and conversions to deal that crazy damage. But if we aggressively pelt her with approaching Arcfires, Elthunders, etc, she seems to have a hard time getting her **** together. Arcfire and her grab range seem to be about the same, so using one when we're at grab range, or rolling behind her if we're closer than that and you think she's going for a grab, will make it very difficult for her to get one off and will allow us to punish her heavily if she whiffs it. We win in the air as long as we're not above her (duh) and she doesn't have a good diagonal up/forward attack so a descending Nosferatu onto her shield is pretty easy to hit thanks to her tall hitbox. Not saying it's an easy matchup but we have the tools to tip the scales in our favor. It's hard to say, I personally think it's 45: at worst if not an even 50.

Samus is an awful matchup. I have to change my guide's rating on the subject, but I think we're at a 45: or 40: on this one. Fought the power-ranked "honorable mention" Samus player in our state for a few hours recently and it's pretty terrible for us. Thanks to our slow speed, she can stay charged all day. And once she's charged, what do we do? We're slow as hell so can't get to her quickly; if we try to Arcfire, we eat a Charge Shot; if we try to Elthunder, Arcthunder, or Thoron, we eat a Charge Shot. And we could try to out-camp her but her camping tools beat ours entirely. The key to fighting Samus is to keep the pressure on her so that she can't get the Charge Shot; but that is something we simply cannot do. I think I'd put her at around a 40 for us.

There's probably more I could say but that's enough for the moment. Thanks for putting all that together.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Gonna have to disagree with Luigi. There is nothing stopping Luigi from taking his own time, fireball approaching, and when in range, just start jabbing back at you. His Jab clanks with Robin's, because Luigi, and since it's frame 2, he eventually overtakes you. And that's if he's not Forward Rolling at you, and Frame 2 Jabbing you immediately. Having a faster Fair that's almost as large as ours kills our attempts to outrange in the air too.

I regularly fight the No. 1 of the state PR and his Luigi. The matchup's a nightmare.

 

[PK Gaming]

Good stuff dath

While I disagree with you on how hard we beat some characters, the fact that you feel comfortable against some of them speaks to Robin's potential, imo. There's been a lot of doom and gloom regarding that character (and i'll readily admit i'm guilty of contributing to that, lol) but it definitely isn't hopeless, especially since you have matchup experience against good players to back up your claims. The thing we need to focus on now is working on our worst matchups and improving our options against them.

From your list, we've got:

Large Disadvantages
Pikachu, ZSS, Mii Brawler, Diddy Kong, and Captain Falcon as disadvantages

and

Disadvantages
ROB, Fox, Sheik, Game and Watch, Zelda, Olimar, Metaknight, Mario and Lucario as slight disadvantages

Mii Brawler is a lost cause, but thankfully he isn't that common in tournament play. That leaves us with 4 characters to really watch out for, and imo they're beatable if you play well enough. We should focus on getting matchup data against these characters.

Thanks again for posting this btw. Definitely gonna incorporate some of that against characters i've been struggling with, haha. What customs do you use?

@Nairo since you're also a really strong player who subs Robin, what are your thoughts on some of these matchups?

 

[Nah]

I gotta ask though, what exactly gives Mii Brawler a 85:15 matchup (one I've never heard of for any character in Smash 4) in it's favor? I have like zero experience fighting human-controlled Miis so......

 

[Gamegenie222]

A doc about the Mu's nice. Are you planning to talk about stages in this as well?

 

[Dathx]

Holy wow @ Dathx that is an amazing body of work! You obviously put a lot of time and effort into this. I've been reading it for the last 20 minutes. I mostly agree with you, as a whole, but here's a couple things I think I disagree on:

The Zero Suit Samus matchup. I've played our resident power-ranked ZSS a number of times (#4 in the state) as well as various randos and I disagree that we lose the matchup. Rather than Arcfire being useless, I think that it can be very useful when used aggressively rather than as a spacing/neutral tool. I think the key to this one is to go right in and get your hands dirty. If we try to out-camp her she'll be able to use her setups and conversions to deal that crazy damage. But if we aggressively pelt her with approaching Arcfires, Elthunders, etc, she seems to have a hard time getting her **** together. Arcfire and her grab range seem to be about the same, so using one when we're at grab range, or rolling behind her if we're closer than that and you think she's going for a grab, will make it very difficult for her to get one off and will allow us to punish her heavily if she whiffs it. We win in the air as long as we're not above her (duh) and she doesn't have a good diagonal up/forward attack so a descending Nosferatu onto her shield is pretty easy to hit thanks to her tall hitbox. Not saying it's an easy matchup but we have the tools to tip the scales in our favor. It's hard to say, I personally think it's 45: at worst if not an even 50.

Samus is an awful matchup. I have to change my guide's rating on the subject, but I think we're at a 45: or 40: on this one. Fought the power-ranked "honorable mention" Samus player in our state for a few hours recently and it's pretty terrible for us. Thanks to our slow speed, she can stay charged all day. And once she's charged, what do we do? We're slow as hell so can't get to her quickly; if we try to Arcfire, we eat a Charge Shot; if we try to Elthunder, Arcthunder, or Thoron, we eat a Charge Shot. And we could try to out-camp her but her camping tools beat ours entirely. The key to fighting Samus is to keep the pressure on her so that she can't get the Charge Shot; but that is something we simply cannot do. I think I'd put her at around a 40 for us.

There's probably more I could say but that's enough for the moment. Thanks for putting all that together.

I'd be really interested in seeing any recorded matches that you have for the ZSS MU. If we arcfire and ZSS reacts to it or isn't forced into shield by it, we get hit by nair for free and then get combo'd into grab or w/e else she wants. I'll experiment some more with aggression + projectiles though and see if that helps. I sat down and played Nick Riddle for probably 3 hours a week or two ago and I think the MU is kinda bad. We played a "serious" Bo5 that we recorded at the end (I'll try to post asap) that ended up 3-2 his favor, with two of his wins being 2 stocks, both of my wins being comfortable one stocks, and the last game going to last hit (which we unfortunately forgot to record that one). The MU can just get too extreme if we make mistakes in my opinion.

I assumed Samus would be awful because of charge shot, but I think we should be able to do well close range. Just try not to let her charge with mid-range small projectiles and large Levin aerials. I'll change it to 45 though, because zair can possibly be annoying as well. I'd be interested in seeing what others think of the MU as well.

Gonna have to disagree with Luigi. There is nothing stopping Luigi from taking his own time, fireball approaching, and when in range, just start jabbing back at you. His Jab clanks with Robin's, because Luigi, and since it's frame 2, he eventually overtakes you. And that's if he's not Forward Rolling at you, and Frame 2 Jabbing you immediately. Having a faster Fair that's almost as large as ours kills our attempts to outrange in the air too.

I regularly fight the No. 1 of the state PR and his Luigi. The matchup's a nightmare.

I simply cannot accept that the Luigi MU is bad. There's too many things we have on him for this MU to be bad. He gets destroyed off-stage from elwind, Thoron on stage stops his approach, if he gets roll heavy then stay mobile or predict it (his roll is pretty god-like though). He has really low aerial mobility so if he's above you he pretty much has to go through you somehow. If you have footage of gameplay against his Luigi that would be great. There might be something that he does that's godlike or something you're not doing. As a bonus, the Luigi I practice against and team with (Lancelot) actually plays Robin now, so there's nothing I'm doing that he doesn't understand.

I gotta ask though, what exactly gives Mii Brawler a 85:15 matchup (one I've never heard of for any character in Smash 4) in it's favor? I have like zero experience fighting human-controlled Miis so......

It's a combination of him being super fast and floaty (so he doesn't care about zone/projectiles) and he can start his grab combos from his super safe nair. I'm exaggerating by saying 15-85, but its probably like 30-70 which is still awful.

A doc about the Mu's nice. Are you planning to talk about stages in this as well?

Probably not. There's plenty of guides on here that talk about that. @ Raziek 's guide on stages is very good: http://smashboards.com/guides/survey-the-battlefield-robin-stage-tactics.147/

Although it is a little outdated because T&C is definitely a great stage for us.

 

[Zareidriel]

Sorry Dathx but we never record any matches around these parts, though it probably would be a good investment to make. Beyond just the MU, there's something to be said about Nick Riddle being 21st ranked whereas you're around 200th. Not to be insulting or anything, just trying to say that his relative skill (he's goddamn Nick Riddle) is probably going to give him an advantage regardless of the MU. Maybe you could fight other ZSS to see if my hypothesis is true?

Nevertheless, we certainly have a disadvantage, though I believe it's only a minor one. And I would love to see that video when you get the chance.

 

[Dathx]

Sorry Dathx but we never record any matches around these parts, though it probably would be a good investment to make. Beyond just the MU, there's something to be said about Nick Riddle being 21st ranked whereas you're around 200th. Not to be insulting or anything, just trying to say that his relative skill (he's goddamn Nick Riddle) is probably going to give him an advantage regardless of the MU. Maybe you could fight other ZSS to see if my hypothesis is true?

Nevertheless, we certainly have a disadvantage, though I believe it's only a minor one. And I would love to see that video when you get the chance.

You're not wrong in saying that he is a great player and I probably have less skill, but I have tournament wins on him using Yoshi. There is no other ZSS close enough in skill locally that I can play, but I am taking skill into account. As an example I played Shaky and Nakat's Ness, and lost more games than I've won. But, the MU should be even if two equally skilled players played.

 

[Deleted member]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hVmblcX5ZdZFD9rdjRkxYuM5_2bE_jHqn1mTDYhkf_E/edit?usp=sharing

I finally completed/updated it! My fabled Robin MU list spreadsheet that I have mentioned sometimes. It's still not completed yet though because I don't have all the experience in every MU, but its pretty close, and I have most of the important MUs down. The characters towards the top tend to be a little less explained that the characters towards the bottom because I got more involved the further I got in, but I tried to go back and add info in, so sometimes that's just all I know.

Some basic keys/code deciphering:

-The MU % is how I think Robin does in the MU, as an example vs. Bowser it is 60-40 Robin.
-Every "bad MU" (anything less than 50) is in red
-Every MU I am too unfamiliar with to say anything confidently is in grey, I do put my best guess and what I do know down sometimes
-The "comments" and "extra notes" sections are pretty much random info. There is no organization on what information is where. That will have to be on a later patch
-The customs section is how much worse/better the MU gets with customs on. Since customs is not a format I am too familiar with, I can definitely expect people to disagree. My region does not like them, and I honestly don't see them returning. Red (bad) --> Yellow (neutral) --> Green (good) ---> Blue (this can save the MU)
-The XP section is what notable/non-notable players I have played that play those characters in tournament.
-"Rando" means random players with little skill. "Half-rando" means players who are known within our region, but are only decent. "Quarter-rando" means someone that is really good in our region, but you have probably never heard of them. If they are named then they are someone notable, and people outside our region can recognize them.

I think that covers everything for that...

Anyway, this is still a work in progress, so I'm looking for criticism/praise/comments or whatever. However, I do want these to be CONSTRUCTIVE. Do not just say "lawl we lose to sonic hard". I want not only reasons, but also WHO you got that MU experience from and I am going to weigh it against who I got that MU experience from. Videos help. As an example, if you tell me there's a good Lucas player in your region who consistently top 8's at locals and he BODIES you and you kind of know why, I'll probably take your word for it because I don't have any experience. But if you try to say that a decent ZSS in your region who sometimes gets top 8 is free to your Robin I'm going to shrug it off in most cases.

I think that's it...if there's any questions please do ask away and I can try to elaborate a bit more. There's also a good chance I have video footage of a specific MU if you ask. And if I don't have video footage, I can setup something with players to get video footage, so if you want like general MU ideas or don't understand my weird writing, then ask away.

Halp senpais: @ Raziek @ PK Gaming @ Mr. Johan @ Zareidriel and I'm probably missing a lot more important people because I don't know anyone here but I want everyone's input ;_;

This will maybe turn into a guide eventually? I dunno. Maybe its own topic? I put it here for now cause it made the most sense which is why I tagged people so people realize it is a thing.

Yeah if you've only played the Link MU against Randoms I'm going to assert that you have the wrong projection for the MU.

I've played the MU against strong players here many many many many times and that MU is completely even IMO.

------------------------------

[collapse=Reasoning]

You marked in the comments "Thoron Punish outrange outspeed", well, if a Link is applying the pressure he can as he is supposed to, then Robin should rarely get to Thoron.

Link's projectile pressure as long as Robin is in range means that Robin will not have an easy time at all charging to Thoron, especially if Speed Thunder isn't in play (and with Speed Thunder a Thoron charge isn't dangerous).

And because Robin is so slow, it's hard for her to get out of Link's range without getting hit or without having to directly challenge him.

Even at full stage length, Robin being able to potentially outrange Link's projectiles is almost completely irrelevant, Link can literally walk right through Elthunder (default Thunder) and all other variants (Speed Thunder). Furthermore, Link's bombs will absorb (default) Thunder and Arcthunder always, and will absorb Elthunder during Elthunder's startup. For Speed Thunder the bombs have an easier time as they will absorb Elthunder no matter how far it's traveled.

Bombs also go right through Arcfire, the only things that Robin has that will 100% beat bombs are Thoron and her Fire Wall custom.

If you are within bomb throw range (which is a longer range than you might think) and Link has a bomb in hand, if you throw down Arcfire you're often going to eat the bomb in his hand, and because Link can put his shield up ridiculously fast after a bomb throw, you probably won't get damage from the stray Arcfire either. You'll take 5% or 8-9% from the bomb (depending on direct contact or splash damage) and lose a use of Arcfire.

Robin doesn't have the mobility in spam that Link does, in a straight projectile war Robin will often lose simply because she can't move nearly as much as Link can while putting up projectiles. Link can bury Robin under 2 bombs and Gale Boomerang quite easily if Robin gets stuck at the edge of the stage trying to charge to Thoron.

What Robin does have is an easier time gimping Link because his recovery is so predictable (he'll either Zair if next to or above the ledge, or U-B below it, simple). Robin can also juggle Link well because of Link's poor aerial mobility and the fact that Robin's Uair is one of the few things that can challenge Link's Dair, which he can sometimes (not all the time as lower level players tend to do) throw out to interrupt a Uair juggle.

I give Robin a slight advantage in CQC because her options are overall safer, although Z-drop bombs add an interruption factor for that and can confirm into almost all of Link's moves in CQC to start a juggle or something else. Essentially, in CQC Robin can more easily do damage because her options tend to be faster and safer (frame-wise) but Link can easily do more damage if he starts getting hits because his tilts do more average damage than Robin's, Jab has cancels into Smash attacks or Grab, etc.

Link can also very easily SDI out of Elwind jab and at lower percents I believe will actually land and be able to put up Shield before the Arcfire Gentleman.

Kill power is roughly the same, Robin has better (read: either more damaging, faster, or safer, or a combination) kill power in the air because of Levin U-air, Fair, and Bair. Link has better kill power on the ground because of the damage his tilts do and because his Smash attacks are all relatively quick with decent range, D-Smash being the safest, followed by Swing 1 F-Smash and then U-Smash which is the "commitment" of his Smash Attacks but kills early. He also has Spin Attack but that's only for reads because it takes so long and because the strong hitbox is only on startup. Swing 1/2 F-Smash will kill Robin at the edge extremely early, as well as relatively early on all other points of the stage. Swing 1 Tipper F-Smash can also kill surprisingly early, and can be dangerous given the decent speed and good range of Swing 1. Link also has a kill throw in U-throw, which kills later than Robin's B-throw % wise but isn't as DI affectable or stage position dependent since it kills off the top. Although Robin moreso has the advantage with grabs at later % now because of the Checkmate setup.

Link can't juggle Robin as well because Robin can usually escape with Elwind, but Link's Uair can possibly go through both Elwind hits and leave him available to chase Robin in her helpless state, Link's Uair also beats airdodge and all of Robin's aerials range-wise so it's not a good idea to directly challenge it. Also, if attempting to land after Elwind, Link's huge grab range can often allow him to get a grab if Robin isn't careful when coming back down to the stage (if she doesn't go out to the ledge).

Link can't do too much to mess with Robin's recovery offstage aside from FF -> Late Nair or Dair, because Robin is vulnerable from above when using Elwind, although the fact that Link can effectively use Dair is dangerous not only because of it's great damage output and absurdly long duration of its hitbox but also because it can very very easily stagespike Robin if she is recovering from below the ledge.

The MU is campy either way since both characters tend to rely so much on projectiles, and most stocks will go pretty late % wise as such, but it really depends on Robin's ability to avoid getting buried by Link's constant spam while taking advantage of her faster CQC options and much better gimping ability, as well as her aerial kill potential which has much more utility than Link's. For Link it depends on his ability to avoid the gimp and either chip to U-tilt or U-throw kill % (which he has an easier time doing than Robin because of his spammability and mobility while using projectiles, this of course can be harshly disrupted by a Nosferatu, however) or get an early kill with one of his Smash Attacks (especially F-Smash) or F-tilt (especially at the ledge), or a Dair stage spike.
[/collapse]

------------------------------

As I said I believe this MU to be even or at worst 55:45 for either character (I honestly couldn't say that Link would win it then or if Robin would, that's how much I believe this MU to be even), but it is in no way 60:40 in 's favor IMO.

 

[FullMoon]

Hello Robin mains, the Greninja boards is discussing you guys: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...m-week-8-24-8-31.369356/page-25#post-20005284

 

[Raziek]

So Dath and I talked about all the matchups. It took 4 hours.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Going through the discussions one at a time, will add info sporadically.

-Pit/Dark Pit-
- Dash Attack is not only fast, it's also deceptively large. If you Arcfire at him hoping for the fireball to contact, Pit can clip you with Dash Attack and trade for it, popping you in the air and making you try to land.
- Upperdash Arm's and Electroshock Arm's hitbox comes out Frame 2 at the earliest. The armor comes out Frame 7. If they're close range, that's an option they can try if you panic and try to swat them away with a move.
- Dair has set knockback if he hits you while you're on the ground. If you don't tech the hit, you're getting Fsmashed.

-Falco-
- Never ledge roll when recovering. Usmash covers the entire distance. Just do a normal get up or drop down ledge jump.
- Dthrow is the truth, leads to everything. Try to DI up I guess? Just to avoid Fair links.
- Bthrow has so much stun it's possible for the single laser to hit you and KO you at 130% on the ledge. It's silly. Don't fall for it.

-Ganondorf-
- In the case that Ganondorf does get in on you...Ganondorf has infinitesimally little endlag on his BnB moves. Dash Attack, Uair, Bair, Das Boot, Usmash, etc. If you try and shield a move and try to punish, Ganondorf's already backed away, ready to Choke you for it. Be cautious and avoid going gun-ho just because you shielded a move.

-Greninja-
- Water Shurikens startup was decreased, not endlag.
- Jab is god in this matchup once you get the lead. Seems to beat all of Greninja's aerial attacks, and Greninja's not really the best at coming for you from the ground.
- Wind Jab gets Shadow Sneaked out, resetting the situation at best, and getting punished at worst.
- Fully charged Shuriken can be Short Hopped over and Fair punished if its done at the range that Greninja can follow up with a Fair or another move.

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Robin mains. The Marth boards have begun discussion on the Robin matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth player for matchup knowledge, please join us.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-robin-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.415677/

 

[Gamegenie222]

So Dath and I talked about all the matchups. It took 4 hours.

Nerd looking forward to watching it.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Why is CFalc considered a bad MU. Even on stages which help him I still would not put him as having an advantage. Probably even but on a stage like Duck Hunt or FD I would definitely say Robin has an advantage.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I saw the thread of one of your Smashers having a couple issues with playing against Falco.
I understand that many people don't see Falco often, so here's a couple tips.


First is probably one of the most important:
-Make Falco approach you
We only have RAR bair and fair as our "strong" approach moves, while bair is still pretty quick the spacing has to be near perfect for us to not get shield grab punished or just bopped in general, learn the spacing and punish accordingly. Also be careful about punishing the fair on stage, it has a hitbox upon landing that seems to catch people often.
Robin has the better projectile game hands down, even with our reflector we can get pinned down when the correct pressure is put down.
-What to do when grabbed
Don't let Falco's flashy strings get the better of you, stay calm, DI away and look for a way to get out of his range or disrupt him. Falco has pretty "meh" air mobility, and he's not too fast on the ground either.
-Edgeguarding
While it is a guessing game he still has one of the most easiest to interrupt recoveries in the game. Use an aerial that has a lot of active frames, (bair maybe?) and smack him away from stage. If we manage to get to ledge while you're still on stage you've got arcfire to cover almost every option Falco has to get himself on stage (he surprisingly has many between lasers and aerials).

Hopefully this helps a bit.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

-Make Falco approach you
We only have RAR bair and fair as our "strong" approach moves, while bair is still pretty quick the spacing has to be near perfect for us to not get shield grab punished or just bopped in general, learn the spacing and punish accordingly. Also be careful about punishing the fair on stage, it has a hitbox upon landing that seems to catch people often.
Robin has the better projectile game hands down, even with our reflector we can get pinned down when the correct pressure is put down.

Falco has pretty "meh" air mobility, .

As odd as it may be, reflector is a nice approach option to throw your opponent off. Obviously not every time but it can help. If we are going to play the projectile game all we really have is Thoron. Arcfire doesn't reach. Thunder doesn't reach. Elthunder can reach depending on range but will get reflected. Arcthunder is definitely going to be reflected. Thoron is left and a good Falco can see that coming it may be reflected or we may get one off but lasers will impede us from constantly charging that high.

Do you really think his air mobility is meh? I play Falco as a secondary and I truly like his movements. His air mobility is great to me.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

You've got to mix it up, be ambiguous.
Robin's range is much bigger than Falco's. It's all about waiting for the moment that they feel like you wouldn't throw out something and playing with their mind.

Maybe not "meh", but alot of the Falcos agree he should be able to cover a tad more space horizontally, I sort of downplayed it too much.

 

[Daxter]

I know this is off the current topic, but what in the world can Robin do against R.O.B? The robot's just as disjointed as us, has faster projectiles, better stage control, better recovery, a reflector, and he's a heavyweight to top it off. I've yet to defeat one as Robin, because it feels like I have no answer to him, except arguably for my F-Air and B-Air.

 

[ARGHETH]

As long as it's talking about matchups, it's on topic.
@ Raziek , you play a ROB regularly, right?

 

[Raziek]

As long as it's talking about matchups, it's on topic.
@ Raziek , you play a ROB regularly, right?

I actually haven't played him in quite a while due to our schedules, but Dath plays 8bitman literally all the time.

We even review one of his sets in the video in that specific section of the matchup.

 

[GwJ]

I know this is off the current topic, but what in the world can Robin do against R.O.B? The robot's just as disjointed as us, has faster projectiles, better stage control, better recovery, a reflector, and he's a heavyweight to top it off. I've yet to defeat one as Robin, because it feels like I have no answer to him, except arguably for my F-Air and B-Air.

If anyone has anything on this matchup, can they help out here? http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-33-robin.413754/

 

[Meneil]

Could someone give me a primer on Robin vs TL? I know that TL's bthrow and usmash are his main kill moves, but thats about it. Is bomb -> usmash a real combo thing? Also videos or players to look up would be really helpful. I noticed that there's a TL in my pool at Big House who placed top 8 at Rebirth. The only plus I have is I seriously doubt he'll have much exp on the MU either.

edit: I got beat by him at BH5 lol, in loser's of my bracket :'( I started to understand the MU way too late.

 

[CSWooly]

I took the document and put it into Smash Compendium's MU Chart Maker.

http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/lctnrkseigjwdbay/

Values have been rounded, because otherwise the app throws a hissy fit, and unknown matchups have been excluded.

 

[Wintropy]

So I just noticed and I have to ask...

Dathx , why do you think Robin has an advantage over Pit? That seems to be something only Robin players believe, because I don't think I've ever seen a Pit player that shares the same opinion.

I'm not telling you you're wrong, just that I can't see it and I don't think I'm the only one who will say that.

EDIT: So I did some digging into your reasoning and I gotta say, I think it's either flawed rationale or you haven't been playing very good Pits.

Pit will never use Orbis to reflect unless he is sure it will do the job. It's basically a reflector that requires a hard read, so the amount of times you will see Pit using it is...practically non-existent unless you're a very daft Robin. At most, I'd expect it to be useful if you try to throw out a Thoron that we can get a read on and punish. Otherwise, it barely even factors into the matchup. Don't use that as a point against Pit.

"Zone" makes sense, but I don't understand how you intend to do that. Pit doesn't care if you want to play patient, he can play just as patient, he's not going anywhere. If you want to try zone him out with spells, you're gonna burn out your tomes. Pit doesn't have that difficulty. Pit's a reactive fighter with good defensive and offensive options, he is quite happy to play your zoning game until you drop your guard and then punish you for it. We're not going to rush in and beat the crap out of you just because we can. You said it yourself: Pit is fast. Faster than Robin. Robin may hit harder and have better zoning options, but Pit's a tricky devil and has the footsies to back it up.

Mr. Johan made some good points too.

Incidentally, some of these matchup values seem...weird. Why is Pikachu 63 / 37 as opposed to just 60 / 40 or 70 / 30? Why do you think Robin beats Ryu so well? Ike? Greninja? Sheik? Sonic?

Sorry, I just don't see it. I respect the work you put into it and you definitely know Robin better than I do, but I don't think any mains of these characters share your optimism.

 

[Nah]

Wintropy I don't agree with some of Dath's numbers either (but when does the majority of a character's mains agree on most of the MUs really? lol). At the very least I don't think that the matchups are anything better than even for Robin, and there's a few others I feel differently about too.

Dunno why some of the ratios aren't multiples of 5 but oh well.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't think it's better or worse than even for either side. Pit has a small handful of bad matchups (but nothing undoable) and a small handful of good matchups (not great either, but good) and a hell of a lot of even matchups. I don't think Pit beats Robin, despite what other Pits might say, but there's no way Robin objectively beats him.

This matchup spread for Robin is better suited for a very high-tier or even top-tier, in my opinion. Dath's list suggests Robin only has difficulty with Mii Brawler and maybe Pikachu and they have good matchups with other top-tiers including Diddy and Ryu, but that just isn't realistic. No character below the top has that kind of matchup spread.

 

[ARGHETH]

Incidentally, some of these matchup values seem...weird. Why is Pikachu 63 / 37 as opposed to just 60 / 40 or 70 / 30? Why do you think Robin beats Ryu so well? Ike? Greninja? Sheik? Sonic?

I think he's said that he doesn't really have much Ike experience, so he's mainly going by theory at that point. Honestly, shifting most of the MUs 50-50 and better (for us) on the chart except for Ike (up to ~55-45 or so), Jigglypuff, and Samus (which I agree with being even) would make a matchup spread that makes more sense to me.
Then again, I don't really go to tournaments, so I'd really like to hear Dath's explanations (There is that 4 hour video somewhere, but that's probably kind of old by now).

 

[Dathx]

"Zone" makes sense, but I don't understand how you intend to do that. Pit doesn't care if you want to play patient, he can play just as patient, he's not going anywhere. If you want to try zone him out with spells, you're gonna burn out your tomes. Pit doesn't have that difficulty. Pit's a reactive fighter with good defensive and offensive options, he is quite happy to play your zoning game until you drop your guard and then punish you for it. We're not going to rush in and beat the crap out of you just because we can. You said it yourself: Pit is fast. Faster than Robin. Robin may hit harder and have better zoning options, but Pit's a tricky devil and has the footsies to back it up.

That's something a lot of people seem to not understand about Robin. If I lose my fire book, I just gained an 18% frame 3 (?) Thoron, which is infinitely better than arcfire (about the same for thunder book). I almost WANT to run out of spells so that I can punish any move you do OR have insane shield pressure with catching off your shield. The only time Robin has trouble in the MU is when she runs out of Levin (can't outrange in the air anymore). Building off that, Robin is faster in the air than pit (with bigger hitboxes), so if Pit ever gets pressured off the ground, he's going to get hit.

Incidentally, some of these matchup values seem...weird. Why is Pikachu 63 / 37 as opposed to just 60 / 40 or 70 / 30? Why do you think Robin beats Ryu so well? Ike? Greninja? Sheik? Sonic?

I felt like 65/35 was too much and 60/40 was too little. Looking back I'd say 65/35 is fine though.
As for beating Ryu, Robin just has all the right tools to fight him: big sword + enough aerial mobility + projectiles. Trela even agreed that Ryu has trouble with Robin. It's probably not any worse than 45:55 for Ryu though.
I think I covered pretty much everything about those other MUs in the video I did with Raziek...except for Ike. I just recently got the chance to play Ryo (the FL Ike god) and most of my assumptions were right. Except his sword is just as big, so Robin sort of just has to camp it out and edge-guard harder, also Robin can combo Ike harder I think. Probably 55:45 Robin's favor or 50:50.

Sorry, I just don't see it. I respect the work you put into it and you definitely know Robin better than I do, but I don't think any mains of these characters share your optimism.

Well, no surprise. Everyone that thinks Robin has garbage MUs probably doesn't have a relevant Robin in their region (considering there's probably a maximum of 5). I've made some effort to make sure the players I judge the MU's in are of comparable skill level (hence the whole right column). I highly doubt that those mains of all the characters are doing the same. Judging a MU when both players are not at a high skill level or know each other's character is very silly.

I also think Robin is ~#15 on the tier list btw.

 

[Raziek]

Co-signing Dath's entire post.

 

[ARGHETH]

Co-signing Dath's entire post.

Oh yeah, have you guys played any Lucases since you made the video?

 

[Raziek]

Oh yeah, have you guys played any Lucases since you made the video?

Casually, but not one I would qualify as good enough to make matchup claims.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah, no, sorry, I don't buy it. I think you're massively overstating Pit's weaknesses and Robin's strengths in the matchup, because this is literally the only time I've ever heard somebody say Robin beats him.

I don't think you're objectively wrong, but I can't see it myself. If you can cite the opinion of good, relevant Pits to back it up, I will accept your thesis. Preferably good Ikes too, because I know every Ike I've conversed with on the subject has the exact opposite opinion.

Re: Robin's matchup spread, I don't agree with you, and I don't think it's as simple as there not being an abundance of good Robins in relevant regions. I think that's a factor, but it isn't the be-all / end-all. The fact that you put Robin in the top 15 of the cast means you have an exceedingly high opinion of the character relative to most other top players (or really any players that I have personally encountered), which is great and I respect that, but you will forgive me if I don't think you're being objective here. It's fine to compare two players of equal skill, but do bear in mind that, unless you co-main a handful of characters, your knowledge of other characters and their matchups is probably not as good as the knowledge of your main's matchups.

I respect what you've done and I can see that you've put quite a bit of effort into it, but I can't see it as anything more than an educated opinion. Unless you want to tell the many Pits, Ikes, etc that their research is incorrect and the Robin board's is the objectively superior set of data, I am not willing to believe your theses.

EDIT: And why do you "highly doubt" the other mains don't do the same thing? To me, that's very disrespectful to other character boards and I can't imagine how you have cogent reason to believe that.

And I mean this with all due respect, but comparing the opinions of a couple of (very good) Robins to a couple of (very good? I've never heard of any of these Pits, for example) mains of other characters doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things. If I heard Nairo and Nick Riddle say that Robin beats Pit and that data was verified by Earth and Pink Fresh (to cite a rhetorical example; Pink isn't as good as Nairo or Earth, but there is a dearth of good Pits at the top of the meta), then I'd be more inclined to believe it.

EDIT2: I realise I'm discussing this in the Robin board, so it's not exactly the best place to doubt Robin's viability, but...I doubt Robin's viability (in the way it's presented). Don't think the opinion of a scrub like me is worth much, but I've said my piece and that's that.

 

[Raziek]

You seem awful fanny-flustered over something that's entirely a matter of opinion.

Why should we put any more weight on the words of the other characters when clearly none of them have played us? (Being myself and Dath)

It's equally invalid to claim their word is more credible than ours when neither has played the other side.

 

[Dathx]

Re: Robin's matchup spread, I don't agree with you, and I don't think it's as simple as there not being an abundance of good Robins in relevant regions. I think that's a factor, but it isn't the be-all / end-all. The fact that you put Robin in the top 15 of the cast means you have an exceedingly high opinion of the character relative to most other top players (or really any players that I have personally encountered), which is great and I respect that, but you will forgive me if I don't think you're being objective here. It's fine to compare two players of equal skill, but do bear in mind that, unless you co-main a handful of characters, your knowledge of other characters and their matchups is probably not as good as the knowledge of your main's matchups.

I think that since barely any top players get to play good Robins it is very close to being the sole reason why she is underrated by so many top players. It's not like the one top player that has a Robin in his region made a tier list with Robin as #17 (ESAM 1.10 list). I might be over-estimating Robin by maybe 2-3 spots (hence the ~) but that's really it. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with bringing up co-mains, but I usually ask what the other mains think the vs. Robin MU is from their view to understand what it might be. As an example, Master Raven thinks Sheik v. Robin is probably 40:60, and I think its 45:55. Who's right? Who knows? Maybe neither of us? In the end, its just my educated opinion, as you said.

EDIT: And why do you "highly doubt" the other mains don't do the same thing? To me, that's very disrespectful to other character boards and I can't imagine how you have cogent reason to believe that.

Link me to a single MU thread or ANYTHING where any other character's main talks about playing relevant Robin mains. I would be willing to bet that their MU experience is with a Robin that is considered a random in their scene. In my spreadsheet I label how strong the players are in my region with a system (which sort of acts like an evidence rating). I think the highest rating for Pit is currently True Blue (known for his Sonic, and currently my doubles partner) who although only has Pit as a secondary, has used him with success against people like Xaltis. Next would be what I label a "quarter rando" (really good player in our region who nobody out of state would know because they don't travel) who plays Dark Pit, but has a Falcon that is currently positive against MVD in tournament (just demonstrating that his skill level is very high, he technically doesn't main anyone though). They both agree that Pit probably loses to Robin.

And I mean this with all due respect, but comparing the opinions of a couple of (very good) Robins to a couple of (very good? I've never heard of any of these Pits, for example) mains of other characters doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things. If I heard Nairo and Nick Riddle say that Robin beats Pit and that data was verified by Earth and Pink Fresh (to cite a rhetorical example; Pink isn't as good as Nairo or Earth, but there is a dearth of good Pits at the top of the meta), then I'd be more inclined to believe it.

In a way, you're right. But, you're also challenging the opinions of the two most relevant Robins (me and Raz, Nairo does not know Robin MUs) with what you said: the opinions of non-relevant (?) Pits. This is why I include the ratings in the right column and why some MUs I literally have no idea and put ?'s or I say (in the video) its mostly theory.


And as a follow-up, the current people who are technically qualified to talk about the Pit-Robin MU: NOBODY. The people qualified to talk about the Ike-Robin MU: Me, Ryo, and nobody else (as an aside he thinks its slightly in Ike's favor or even while I think the opposite, but we didn't talk about it that much and played maybe 5-6 games?). All I can do is give my side of the argument and take into account what I see when I play against the character. Is my opinion biased? Maybe. I try my hardest to be realistic on both sides though. I think the best example of that is my opinion on Sheik. In the past 3 months or so, I have lost to the combination of Master Raven and Ed (our most relevant Sheiks, with Raven being ranked 3 spots higher than me on our PR) only ONCE (Ed beat me 3-2 in a set a month ago). But I still think that MU is 45:55 (note: I learned how to play the MU by playing Master Raven for about 3-4 hours straight so he KNOWS the MU).

EDIT2: I realise I'm discussing this in the Robin board, so it's not exactly the best place to doubt Robin's viability, but...I doubt Robin's viability (in the way it's presented). Don't think the opinion of a scrub like me is worth much, but I've said my piece and that's that.

I appreciate that you challenge my opinions because it brings discussion. I could definitely be wrong about some of these numbers. Maybe someone else will come around and have the same doubts/questions that you have so its definitely worth bringing them up.

 

[Nah]

It's not exactly hard to be skeptical of someone's claims of their main's MU spread and/or tier list position. Yes, it's possible that the skeptic doesn't fully understand what the character is and isn't capable of and so has an incorrect view of how the character fares in MUs, but at the same time because the other person mains the character they're prone to be biased....idk if y'all noticed, but the majority of people on this site tend to either overrate or underrate their main.

edit: What I mean to say in this first paragraph is that saying "you don't play this character/don't play against 'relevant' mains of this character and therefore don't understand their MUs and/or potential" is a poor line of reasoning since that legit applies to half the cast (since half the cast is hella underrepresented), and doesn't make it true at all. Think Ganondorf or Zelda optimists.

Also top 15 is basically high tier. I don't think Robin is high tier.

But anyway, one other question I wanna ask about your MU chart Dathx (and I assume you agree with his ratio on the matchup Raziek ), but why do you think that the is even? I get that Fox is a lightweight fastfaller so he's a little easier to Checkmate and Wind Jab eats him alive and he has a literally linear recovery, but I don't see how that makes things even. Not when he has the mobility to maneuver around our projectiles (and is straight up way faster than us) plus a reflector, is one of the best at CQC in the game, and can tack on damage at long range with his Blaster. It seems to me like he can better exploit our weaknesses than we can exploit his.

 

[Zio~]

It's not exactly hard to be skeptical of someone's claims of their main's MU spread and/or tier list position. Yes, it's possible that the skeptic doesn't fully understand what the character is and isn't capable of and so has an incorrect view of how the character fares in MUs, but at the same time because the other person mains the character they're prone to be biased....idk if y'all noticed, but the majority of people on this site tend to either overrate or underrate their main.

Also top 15 is basically high tier. I don't think Robin is high tier.

But anyway, one other question I wanna ask about your MU chart Dathx (and I assume you agree with his ratio on the matchup Raziek ), but why do you think that the is even? I get that Fox is a lightweight fastfaller so he's a little easier to Checkmate and Wind Jab eats him alive and he has a literally linear recovery, but I don't see how that makes things even. Not when he has the mobility to maneuver around our projectiles (and is straight up way faster than us) plus a reflector, is one of the best at CQC in the game, and can tack on damage at long range with his Blaster. It seems to me like he can better exploit our weaknesses than we can exploit his.

I second this, I've seen foxes being able to force robin to aproach just by camping with blaster and reflecting robins projectiles with ease.

 

[MVD]

I think that since barely any top players get to play good Robins it is very close to being the sole reason why she is underrated by so many top players. It's not like the one top player that has a Robin in his region made a tier list with Robin as #17 (ESAM 1.10 list). I might be over-estimating Robin by maybe 2-3 spots (hence the ~) but that's really it. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with bringing up co-mains, but I usually ask what the other mains think the vs. Robin MU is from their view to understand what it might be. As an example, Master Raven thinks Sheik v. Robin is probably 40:60, and I think its 45:55. Who's right? Who knows? Maybe neither of us? In the end, its just my educated opinion, as you said.




Link me to a single MU thread or ANYTHING where any other character's main talks about playing relevant Robin mains. I would be willing to bet that their MU experience is with a Robin that is considered a random in their scene. In my spreadsheet I label how strong the players are in my region with a system (which sort of acts like an evidence rating). I think the highest rating for Pit is currently True Blue (known for his Sonic, and currently my doubles partner) who although only has Pit as a secondary, has used him with success against people like Xaltis. Next would be what I label a "quarter rando" (really good player in our region who nobody out of state would know because they don't travel) who plays Dark Pit, but has a Falcon that is currently positive against MVD in tournament (just demonstrating that his skill level is very high, he technically doesn't main anyone though). They both agree that Pit probably loses to Robin.



In a way, you're right. But, you're also challenging the opinions of the two most relevant Robins (me and Raz, Nairo does not know Robin MUs) with what you said: the opinions of non-relevant (?) Pits. This is why I include the ratings in the right column and why some MUs I literally have no idea and put ?'s or I say (in the video) its mostly theory.


And as a follow-up, the current people who are technically qualified to talk about the Pit-Robin MU: NOBODY. The people qualified to talk about the Ike-Robin MU: Me, Ryo, and nobody else (as an aside he thinks its slightly in Ike's favor or even while I think the opposite, but we didn't talk about it that much and played maybe 5-6 games?). All I can do is give my side of the argument and take into account what I see when I play against the character. Is my opinion biased? Maybe. I try my hardest to be realistic on both sides though. I think the best example of that is my opinion on Sheik. In the past 3 months or so, I have lost to the combination of Master Raven and Ed (our most relevant Sheiks, with Raven being ranked 3 spots higher than me on our PR) only ONCE (Ed beat me 3-2 in a set a month ago). But I still think that MU is 45:55 (note: I learned how to play the MU by playing Master Raven for about 3-4 hours straight so he KNOWS the MU).



I appreciate that you challenge my opinions because it brings discussion. I could definitely be wrong about some of these numbers. Maybe someone else will come around and have the same doubts/questions that you have so its definitely worth bringing them up.

eden isnt positive vs me -.-