Q&A "Worthy Opponents Indeed!" - Match-up Q&A Thread

[Zoramine Fae]

Just a random Little Mac/Roy main here, with Robin as one of the characters that I really love and know decently well in Smash Bros, passing through here. I was working back a week ago on a Roy guide and asked the Roy mains there some questions on matchups and stage selections, and I got like one person to reply and I was seriously disappointed. I finished the guide in ten days, posted it, and only with help from one friend IRL, one friend over Pokemon Showdown, and one on the Roy boards.

Now, I've got the same question, and some more, for you Robin mains: What, do you say, are Robin's worst and best Matchups, your favorite and least favorite stages (I especially need this, as I do not own a Wii U), and some combos/strings that I could quickly put down? I know mostly basics on these three, but I'm just missing a bit and once I start heavily working on this tomorrow I'll be needing tons of information so I can make it as good and well-informed, if not better, than my Roy guide. As well as this, if possible, if anyone has a 3DS and would mind teaching me some techs that Robin has, that'd be perfect.

Thanks a lot!

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin's worst and best Matchups,

Best: Heavies, generally: Ganondorf, Bowser, DDD
Worst: Brawler, ZSS, Diddy, Pikachu

your favorite and least favorite stages

Favorite: Platform stages
Least: Stages with few platforms

and some combos/strings that I could quickly put down

Fair strings at low %s, Utilt --> stuff, Arcfire --> Levin aerial (or Usmash if you're close enough), Arcthunder --> Fsmash/Dair/Footstool/Fair/Uair (depending on distance when it hit), Dthrow --> Jab (low %)/Utilt (mid %)/Uair (high %).

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Best: Heavies, generally: Ganondorf, Bowser, DDD
Worst: Brawler, ZSS, Diddy, Pikachu

Favorite: Platform stages
Least: Stages with few platforms

Fair strings at low %s, Utilt --> stuff, Arcfire --> Levin aerial (or Usmash if you're close enough), Arcthunder --> Fsmash/Dair/Footstool/Fair/Uair (depending on distance when it hit), Dthrow --> Jab (low %)/Utilt (mid %)/Uair (high %).

Mind adding some reasonings for the worst MUs? For the heavies I can understand why immediately, but I'm also putting down archetypes of characters Robin struggles with (Characters that can get past his projectiles with ease, rushdown characters, reflectors, etc)

 

[Nah]

@Pika Kong fwiw I don't really think that Robin wins the Mega Man MU

Mind adding some reasonings for the worst MUs? For the heavies I can understand why immediately, but I'm also putting down archetypes of characters Robin struggles with (Characters that can get past his projectiles with ease, rushdown characters, reflectors, etc)

It's basically some of what you listed: they get in on Robin fairly easily, and once they do she has a hard time getting them off of her since she has no combo breakers, poor OoS options, and limited landing options. Mario and Sheik are bad MUs for pretty much the same reasons (Sheik also can pick between forcing her to approach with Needles or invading her space, most characters can only do one or the other).

 

[alexthepony]

how would you recommend fighting robin as rosalina

 

[LochTessMonster]

Now, I've got the same question, and some more, for you Robin mains: What, do you say, are Robin's worst and best Matchups.!

Little Mac is probably one of our worst matchups, him being exceedingly fast and short, whiff an arcfire and you'll eat some of the strongest ground attacks in the game. I agree with ARGETH and Nah, ZSS, Diddy, and Mii Brawler are exceedingly hard for Robin to handle. Pikachu being my personal most loathed character while playing Robin, Thunder jolt cancels out every projectile except for Thoron and his small stature means he's exceedingly difficult to hit with aerials.

your favorite and least favorite stages

Robin's best stages will be large ones with a good amount of platforms and a low ceiling. Robin needs space to run around so that you're not constantly in your opponents face, and because Robin's aerials are so incredible platforms help Robin a lot on offense, and allow for more landing options which he doesn't have many to begin with. The low ceiling also helps Robin kill with his already god-like upair. I'd say the best stages for Robin are Battlefield and Town and City. Depending on the opponent Robin can do okay on FD, since it's fairly large, but the lack of platforms makes landing tricky. Probably the worst stage (from my experience) is Smashville. Being one of the smallest stages, Robin always gets stuck in the opponents face, even with the platforms.

and some combos/strings that I could quickly put down?

Arcfire --> Fair --> Fair at low to mid percents is an easy way to rack up 37%
Arcfire --> Double Jump --> Upair is an incredible kill move and is pretty easy to land.
If your opponent has been abusing their shield, Arcthunder --> Smash Thrown Book will easily break their shield.
Down Throw --> Wind jab works on most characters without an extremely fast and long ranged nair. Also works with Down Throw --> uptilt
This is more of a mixup, but Forward Throw --> Thoron will net you a kill if your opponent is not expecting it, jbut it won't work unless your opponent is offstage.
Arcthunder --> Nosferatu or Arcfire --> Nosferatu work well too.

That works too
Finally, there's a lot of information I probably forgot, but if you want to learn more, you can always check out Zareidriel's guide, i'll link it here because it's probably one of the best Robin guides i've read.
http://smashboards.com/guides/superior-tactics-deity-level-robin-guide.128/
I also know that Raizek has a guide about Robin's preferred stages.

Phew, sorry for that wall of text, but I kinda felt like dumping everything I knew here lol
Hopefully some of this will be helpful to you, and possibly others as well!

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Little Mac is probably one of our worst matchups, him being exceedingly fast and short, whiff an arcfire and you'll eat some of the strongest ground attacks in the game. I agree with ARGETH and Nah, ZSS, Diddy, and Mii Brawler are exceedingly hard for Robin to handle. Pikachu being my personal most loathed character while playing Robin, Thunder jolt cancels out every projectile except for Thoron and his small stature means he's exceedingly difficult to hit with aerials.



Robin's best stages will be large ones with a good amount of platforms and a low ceiling. Robin needs space to run around so that you're not constantly in your opponents face, and because Robin's aerials are so incredible platforms help Robin a lot on offense, and allow for more landing options which he doesn't have many to begin with. The low ceiling also helps Robin kill with his already god-like upair. I'd say the best stages for Robin are Battlefield and Town and City. Depending on the opponent Robin can do okay on FD, since it's fairly large, but the lack of platforms makes landing tricky. Probably the worst stage (from my experience) is Smashville. Being one of the smallest stages, Robin always gets stuck in the opponents face, even with the platforms.



Arcfire --> Fair --> Fair at low to mid percents is an easy way to rack up 37%
Arcfire --> Double Jump --> Upair is an incredible kill move and is pretty easy to land.
If your opponent has been abusing their shield, Arcthunder --> Smash Thrown Book will easily break their shield.
Down Throw --> Wind jab works on most characters without an extremely fast and long ranged nair. Also works with Down Throw --> uptilt
This is more of a mixup, but Forward Throw --> Thoron will net you a kill if your opponent is not expecting it, jbut it won't work unless your opponent is offstage.
Arcthunder --> Nosferatu or Arcfire --> Nosferatu work well too.

That works too
Finally, there's a lot of information I probably forgot, but if you want to learn more, you can always check out Zareidriel's guide, i'll link it here because it's probably one of the best Robin guides i've read.
http://smashboards.com/guides/superior-tactics-deity-level-robin-guide.128/
I also know that Raizek has a guide about Robin's preferred stages.

Phew, sorry for that wall of text, but I kinda felt like dumping everything I knew here lol
Hopefully some of this will be helpful to you, and possibly others as well!

Thank you SO much. I've decided to postpone doing Robin, although it will remain saved under my Word files on my flashdrive, and begin working on it once I finish two others: Little Mac and Cloud. Cloud I promised a friend I would do, as well as a few other people, and as such I feel more obliged to do that beforehand and I know Robin less than Cloud. Little Mac, while I have already done two guides on him, both are rather poor quality and don't do enough of a job explaining each and every move like my Roy guide did so I'm going even further with this one.

Although now I have info for how to play Robin and what to expect, LOL

 

[Janno]

so

• Jab 1 BKB: 35 -> 40
• Jab 2 BK: 30/35 -> 45

is it a buff or a nerf? cant quite tell lol

 

[ARGHETH]

so

• Jab 1 BKB: 35 -> 40
• Jab 2 BK: 30/35 -> 45

is it a buff or a nerf? cant quite tell lol

Jab works on fast-fallers at 0, so...it's something?
Honestly, Robin was basically unchanged.

 

[Janno]

Jab works on fast-fallers at 0, so...it's something?
Honestly, Robin was basically unchanged.

thats actually quite a buff (more a qol buff but its pretty good)
what about chars like mario with his upb? is he still able to upb out of our jab?

 

[ARGHETH]

thats actually quite a buff (more a qol buff but its pretty good)
what about chars like mario with his upb? is he still able to upb out of our jab?

I dunno. No damage/hitstun changes, so probably. I can't test it, though (only one 3DS).

 

[Janno]

More knockback equals more hitstun, doesnt it?

 

[Zoramine Fae]

More damage does more hitstun. However, once they get to the percent where they are put into the tumbling animation by an attack, THEN they also get more hitstun. That's as far as I know.

 

[Touchebag]

More damage does more hitstun. However, once they get to the percent where they are put into the tumbling animation by an attack, THEN they also get more hitstun. That's as far as I know.

Are you absolutely sure about this? Because it seems like Jab2 combos much better into Fire Finisher now. Previously anyone (except possibly Mewtwo I believe) could easily airdodge the Fire jab. Testing with friends suggests otherwise even at 0% so hitstun is increased at low % as well.

Or am I just misinterpereting you completely and making a fool out of myself here?

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Are you absolutely sure about this? Because it seems like Jab2 combos much better into Fire Finisher now. Previously anyone (except possibly Mewtwo I believe) could easily airdodge the Fire jab. Testing with friends suggests otherwise even at 0% so hitstun is increased at low % as well.

Or am I just misinterpereting you completely and making a fool out of myself here?

Misinterperting here, I believe. I forgot to mention that, attacks with absurdly low knockback at low percents have basically no hitstun - So, things like Little Mac's Neutral Air, Sheik's Jab 1, Fireballs/Thunder Jolt... And with this buff, the knockback MIGHT be just enough to get them airborne and in enough hitstun. It might just be in general them being closer to the hitbox, though.

That's just off information I have gathered through a bunch of hours of testing crap, so forgive me if I'm wrong. Almost certain that's whats going on.

 

[ARGHETH]

HEY
NOSFERATU IS NOW F15
THANK YOU SAKURAI, THIS IS TOTALLY WHAT NOSFERATU NEEDED CHANGED.

 

[alexthepony]

Sometimes I see people do empty sh when they pressure their oppenents. Why do people do this. I don't really understand air footies so can someone help

 

[Janno]

Empty hops are a mindgame thats not just a Robin thing nor just a Smash4 thing. Empty hops are usually followed by a grab, since you make the opponent think you are going to attack with an aerial.
Since Robin has a poor grab its often not that usefull to go for an empty hop -> grab (sometimes it is tho) but i usually tend to go for an empty hop -> sideb to make the opponent stuck in shield stun

 

[Touchebag]

HEY
NOSFERATU IS NOW F15
THANK YOU SAKURAI, THIS IS TOTALLY WHAT NOSFERATU NEEDED CHANGED.

To be fair, Nos is probably the most powerful attack in the game. Command grab, decent damage, insane healing. Makes sense it should be hard to hit. That extra frame might actually be the difference between a grab or a spotdodge punish. Well take every little buff we can get?

 

[ARGHETH]

To be fair, Nos is probably the most powerful attack in the game. Command grab, decent damage, insane healing. Makes sense it should be hard to hit. That extra frame might actually be the difference between a grab or a spotdodge punish. Well take every little buff we can get?

It's a buff, but it's literally the least helpful buff we could've gotten. While Nosferatu was kind of slow, it wasn't slow enough that one frame would have made a difference. It's still a situational mixup option on landing that'll get used less than our other moves (-Dair).
Also, Nosferatu is nowhere near the most powerful/bet attack in the game. It's not even our best move.

 

[Touchebag]

It's a buff, but it's literally the least helpful buff we could've gotten. While Nosferatu was kind of slow, it wasn't slow enough that one frame would have made a difference. It's still a situational mixup option on landing that'll get used less than our other moves (-Dair).

Yeah sure. I would love to get reduced end lag or a bigger hitbox instead but a buff is still a buff. I'll take anything I can get with Robin.

Also, Nosferatu is nowhere near the most powerful/bet attack in the game. It's not even our best move.

I was talking purely numbers-wise. It is a really powerful move if it connects. Mostly because of the healing. That's why they wanted to make it hard to do so and why they didn't change that aspect or make it safer on miss.

 

[ARGHETH]

It doesn't heal that much until high percents, though.

 

[Touchebag]

True. But even at the minimum the only healing special that comes close are Ness and Lucas I believe. And 30+% after killing an opponent is not that uncommon.

 

[The_Devious]

How's the Mario matchup?

 

[Waymas]

Hi fellow Robin mains, the Wario boards are currently discussing the MU, if you want to join the conversation click the Wario icon

 

[atticusfinch7]

I really struggle against robin a lot, and by a lot I mean a lot. I'm used to many top tier characters like Luigi, Mario and Sheik but I fought a robin for the first time and really got screwed over big time. So if you guys are kind enough to let me know 1. How should I DI the dthrow to not get killed by Uair? 2. What is the best thing to do to get out of Arcfire and not get Fair'ed or nosferato grabbed? 3. How can I approach safely without worrying about getting hit by an arcfire/thunderbolt out of nowhere?

 

[ARGHETH]

1. How should I DI the dthrow to not get killed by Uair?

If it's at the right percents...you can't. At certain percents, Dthrow-->Uair is true.

2. What is the best thing to do to get out of Arcfire and not get Fair'ed or nosferato grabbed?

SDI, mainly.

 

[atticusfinch7]

If it's at the right percents...you can't. At certain percents, Dthrow-->Uair is true.

SDI, mainly.

Can you explain specifically how to SDI, I've heard different explanations.

 

[ARGHETH]

Can you explain specifically how to SDI, I've heard different explanations.

There's different kinds; I use quarter-circle SDI because I use the 3DS as a controller, but there's stuff involving the C-stick that I have no idea about.
For quarter-circle SDI, you pick which direction you want to go in and move your stick quickly between the directions directly outside of it, making sure to go on the outside of the stick's circle. For example, if you want to SDI up, you'd do this:: \|/|\|/. For diagonally right, it's like this: |/_/|/_ repeatedly until you escape.

 

[Avokha]

So I came across a pretty skilled Ike on For Glory recently, who kicked my but quite a bit early on. To describe this Ike, he often approached via the air, but played tomahawk mindgames quite a lot; I shield, expecting an aerial, but he fast falls and grabs instead- proceed to get thrashed by throw combos. Recovering was difficult, as he knew to neutral b when I recovered low, and his f throw sent me to low to recover high, and when I could recover high, he would jump after me, and I was clearly disadvantaged in that position.

This proved to be quite a learning experience, however, as I slowly picked up after MANY games. Some of the things I learned about Ike vs. Robin :

-Arcfire in neutral is bad, Ike easily punishes.
-Elthunder is the truth; use this above arcthunder, at least until a checkmate is possible.
-Thoron can be used to intercept side b recoveries, though only if he prepares it early, and you have to have thoron at the ready.
-Thunder/Elthunder/Arcfire can stop Ike from erupting at the ledge, use when possible
-Challenge Ike when he approaches from the air, but don't allow him to get his back towards you; bair is deadly.
-Ragnell can be frightening when used right; don't let Ike intimidate you.
-Nosferatu landing mixups came in handy, especially when b reversed.
-Elwind, though risky,can be used as a means of escape if he attempts to kill with uair.
-Jab, like Elthunder, is the truth, just don't use the wind finisher; Ike can SDI out of it with ease.
-Nair can prove efficient as a 'get of me' move if the Ike gets air dodge-happy.
-Checmate is very effective on Ike (as it is on everyone); this has proved to be a win condition.

Have I got the right of it?

 

[AC NuBurs]

Suprised nobodys asked this yet, but what the HELL can this pos character do against Bayonetta?

 

[Nah]

Not sure where to put this but oh well

A little bit ago in the CCI thread this was posted:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Basically a guide on how to DI/SDI Bayo combos. Given that Bayonetta's becoming a major metagame force and her Witch Twist+ABK combos are widely complained about, it's probably worth looking into, at least to see if it even works at all. Test character was Diddy so adjustments would likely need to be made for when testing with other characters.

 

[LochTessMonster]

There was a recent discovery about bayo's side and up b,
https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/719714260637462528
Basically it doesn't seem to matter what character bayo is comboing, all her combos work the same. Which should mean that the DI is the same for all characters.

 

[ARGHETH]

There was a recent discovery about bayo's side and up b,
https://twitter.com/KuroganeHammer/status/719714260637462528
Basically it doesn't seem to matter what character bayo is comboing, all her combos work the same. Which should mean that the DI is the same for all characters.

More specifically, weight is set to 100 for all characters. Fall speed still applies, but the DI should essentially be the same for all characters.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Gravity does not apply, only fall speed does.

 

[theMichael]

Hey everyone. I am looking for some advice on the Robin vs diddy matchup which in my experience has been brutal. Diddy's pressure with bananas and spread makes it easy for first to get close where Robin is weak and once in the air, it is very hard to land. I seem to have more luck on stages like town and city where I can create a little more space but stages like battlefield seem impossible.

 

[Cherpumple]

Looking for some help with the Robin vs Zelda matchup. My friend who mains Zelda and I have been playing lots of matches as of late and I'm having major trouble with Farore's Wind. Everytime I cast Arcfire or any Thunder variant, he'll use Farore's Wind to teleport directly on me to punish my attack. I can also be short hopping (retreating, aerials, Thunder charging) and the reentry of Farore's Wind will hit me. How can I go about playing this matchup without being punished from across the entire stage after casting pretty much any projectile? Farore's Wind tends to kill reliably above 80% so avoiding this punish would be optimal.

I know it has about 40 frames of endlang after the hitbox ends, so punishing it when it's whiffed or shielded doesn't tend to be a problem unless I'm really not expecting it or it's spaced really well. Do I really just have to stop using Arcfire all together for this matchup? But it's not just Arcfire that's being punished.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Dream Cancel]

Looking for some help with the Robin vs Zelda matchup. My friend who mains Zelda and I have been playing lots of matches as of late and I'm having major trouble with Farore's Wind. Everytime I cast Arcfire or any Thunder variant, he'll use Farore's Wind to teleport directly on me to punish my attack. I can also be short hopping (retreating, aerials, Thunder charging) and the reentry of Farore's Wind will hit me. How can I go about playing this matchup without being punished from across the entire stage after casting pretty much any projectile? Farore's Wind tends to kill reliably above 80% so avoiding this punish would be optimal.

I know it has about 40 frames of endlang after the hitbox ends, so punishing it when it's whiffed or shielded doesn't tend to be a problem unless I'm really not expecting it or it's spaced really well. Do I really just have to stop using Arcfire all together for this matchup? But it's not just Arcfire that's being punished.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

Remember that Zelda is low tier for many reasons. Absurd landing lag on everything but Nair, mediocre mobility, poor pressure and approach game, unfortunate Up B jank when recovering up slopes, limited off-stage options, etc. You need to exploit these things.

Anyhoo, as you mentioned, it takes 40 frames for her to hit you. Average reaction time is 13~ frames and Shield comes out on Frame 1. Shield the move and move on with your life. If you're charging, shield it. If you're spacing or short hopping, double jump and air dodge for good measure. She should never be hitting you with this move, especially if you don't commit to an arcfire. Also, why are you throwing out aerials when you can't reach her with them?

You can't mindlessly throw out aerials as Robin against anyone with a burst option like Farore's Wind.

Try playing Marth against your friend to get the spacing mindset. It doesn't matter if you lose because you're being punished for playing too campy, and Marth has no reason to be outside his tipper range. Neither does Robin when being punished at long range.

 

[Cherpumple]

Remember that Zelda is low tier for many reasons. Absurd landing lag on everything but Nair, mediocre mobility, poor pressure and approach game, unfortunate Up B jank when recovering up slopes, limited off-stage options, etc. You need to exploit these things.

Anyhoo, as you mentioned, it takes 40 frames for her to hit you. Average reaction time is 13~ frames and Shield comes out on Frame 1. Shield the move and move on with your life. If you're charging, shield it. If you're spacing or short hopping, double jump and air dodge for good measure. She should never be hitting you with this move, especially if you don't commit to an arcfire. Also, why are you throwing out aerials when you can't reach her with them?

You can't mindlessly throw out aerials as Robin against anyone with a burst option like Farore's Wind.

Try playing Marth against your friend to get the spacing mindset. It doesn't matter if you lose because you're being punished for playing too campy, and Marth has no reason to be outside his tipper range. Neither does Robin when being punished at long range.

Thanks for the advice, though I'm not sure what her being low tier has to do with what I'm asking. My main problem isn't necessarily beating her in general as it is Zelda being able to punish with Farore's Wind. I've read some other posts about this matchup and everywhere I've read says Robin should just camp to force Zelda to approach. But, I can cast Elthunder from over halfway across the stage and Zelda can just teleport on top of me before my animation is done. I don't see how camping works that well against Zelda. But I digress, I usually am able to either perfect shield or get hit right at the end of my endlag. Maybe it's just a timing thing.

Empty aerials are not the problem. I've been approaching with LSFairs as per usual and my friend will sometimes Farore's Wind, and then reenter in the same spot. This either clanks them out or in some cases just outright hits me. Not sure what to do about that but it's not something that happens too often.

Also I don't quite understand what you're saying about trying Marth. Could you maybe elaborate on that?

EDIT: Upon reading your post again, I understand what you're saying about Marth.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Thanks for the advice, though I'm not sure what her being low tier has to do with what I'm asking. My main problem isn't necessarily beating her in general as it is Zelda being able to punish with Farore's Wind. I've read some other posts about this matchup and everywhere I've read says Robin should just camp to force Zelda to approach. But, I can cast Elthunder from over halfway across the stage and Zelda can just teleport on top of me before my animation is done. I don't see how camping works that well against Zelda. But I digress, I usually am able to either perfect shield or get hit right at the end of my endlag. Maybe it's just a timing thing.

Empty aerials are not the problem. I've been approaching with LSFairs as per usual and my friend will sometimes Farore's Wind, and then reenter in the same spot. This either clanks them out or in some cases just outright hits me. Not sure what to do about that but it's not something that happens too often.

Also I don't quite understand what you're saying about trying Marth. Could you maybe elaborate on that?

EDIT: Upon reading your post again, I understand what you're saying about Marth.

Sorry if I came off as a bit aggressive.

You can sit at long distance and charge your thunder tome to try and bait her to use Farore's Wind. Of course, if you fully charge it then you'll have Thoron and she'll have to choose between three options, Farore's Wind, pre-emptively using Neutral B, and approaching you to take stage control. You can react appropriately from that position.

As for short hop LFairs and aerials, simply land and wait to see her option of choice. An aggresive option (dash attack or grab) can be beaten by attacking, you can wait out Farore's Wind, and you can get a defensive reaction to your short hop approaches for potential reads and conditioning later on.

I haven't played against any skilled Zeldas like you have, but I've had my fair share of problematic match ups like Link and Toon Link, (at the tournament level) and I've overcome Link but Toon Link is still one of my issues. I hope I helped out with Zelda at least a little bit.