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Work on new code: 16 values

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Okay, I'm awaiting some input on the best way to rewrite the char. specific codes (I'm somewhat out of my depth here - it should be an interesting learning experience). But while I wait, I figure I would provide details on the basis of how I will make it work, and ask for input from y'all in preparation for the values I should plug in.

Each character will be assigned their own little line of memory of the form:

XXABCDEF

XX is the character's ID, and the following characters define the value for up to 6 different things: Short Hop Height, Full Hop Height, Gravity, Downwards Gravity, Fast Fall Speed, and one other, to be assigned at a later time (air mobility seems like a candidate for this - dash speed also if we decide not to have a straight increase across the board). Because this value can be anything from 0 to F, we have 16 values that can be used. Because of the structure of the code, there is no efficiency loss (and only half a line per value loss) for using this many, which should be suitable for customizability.

I would appreciate your comments on what should be changed at this time - I clearly lack the experience or testing power to make the changes by myself. Please give quantitative changes.

16 Values:
Code:
0: 0.85
1: 0.9
2: 0.95
3: 1.0
4: 1.05
5: 1.1
6: 1.115
7: 1.15
8: 1.2
9: 1.25
A: 1.3
B: 1.4
C: 
D: 
E: 
F:
Current character values:
Code:
Character	ID	Grav	Dgrav	FH	SH	FF
Mario	0	1.2	1	1.1	1.15	1.05
DK	1	1	1	1	0.9	1.4
Link	2	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Samus	3	1.1	1	1.05	0.85	1.2
Yoshi	4	1.2	1	1	1.1	1.05
Kirby	5	1	1	1	1	1.35
Fox	6	1.3	1	1.15	1.1	1
Pikachu	7	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Luigi	8	1.1	1	1.05	0.95	1.2
Falcon	9	1.3	1	1.15	1.15	1
Ness	A	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Bowser	B	1	1	1	0.9	1.4
Peach	C	1.2	1	1.1	1	1.05
Zelda	D	1.1	1	1.05	1	1.2
Sheik	E	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Climbers	F	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Marth	11	1.2	1	1.1	1.115	1.05
G&W	12	1.1	1	1.05	1	1.2
Falco	13	1.3	1	1.15	1	1
Ganon	14	1	1.3	1	1	1.1
Wario	15	1.1	1	1.05	1	1.2
MK	16	1	1	1	1	1.35
Pit	17	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
ZSS	18	1.2	1	1.1	1	1.05
Olimar	19	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Lucas	1A	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Diddy	1B	1.2	1	1.1	1	1.05
Charizard	1D	1.1	1	1.05	1.1	1.2
Squirtle	1E	1	1.1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Ivysaur	1F	1	1	1	1	1.4
Dedede	20	1	1	1	1	1.4
Lucario	21	1.2	1	1.1	1.115	1.05
Ike	22	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
ROB	23	1.2	1	1.1	1.1	1.05
Jiggs	25	1	1	1	1	1.3
Toony	29	1.1	1	1.05	1	1.2
Wolf	2C	1.3	1	1.15	1.1	1
Snake	2E	1.2	1	1.1	1.115	1.05
Sonic	2F	1	1.3	1	0.9	1
Planned changelog:
Code:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
interesting idea, but I wonder how you are gonna code this
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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Location
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Where exactly is the description for all of these numbers mapped out at so I can wrap my head around it?
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
That's how the best programs are written :D

Slight change of subject, but could we do something like this for balance purposes? Make 6 different modifier codes for things like "offense, defense, weight, etc..."?

Also on that note, are we interested in making characters like MK "clumsy" with this code? Could we modify him so his shorthop is non-existent, or make his upward gravity so low that he dies at low-%s?

Finally, what are these values? 1.1 is what, 1.1 times normal?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
yes, they are multiplications.
and my idea of nerfing MK was lowering knockback on Dsmash and other kill moves and make him less floaty
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Sorry, yes, they're multiplications. I think your best bet is trying the current code and then making tweaks based on that. Launch power is opposed by some form of gravity, so if you give someone, say, 0.7x launch power on their shorthop, often they won't even leave the ground.

Yeah, I can foresee this being used to weaken characters.

It's possible to change globally for one character;
Damage Dealt, Damage Received, Knockback Dealt, Knockback Received, Gravity. However I'm still working on the ones other than gravity. Somewhere along the line, specific move modification also comes into play.
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
yes, they are multiplications.
and my idea of nerfing MK was lowering knockback on Dsmash and other kill moves and make him less floaty
And added lag to B moves?

Almas, I am going to start testing on all characters.
We can have people do cross references, but this seems to be the only way to properly do this is to have everyone test every character.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
ROB, CF, MK, diddy, ganon, kirby, lucas and fox

I'll test those, but I might need to port stuff first (might? :p)
 

The Cape

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PK, lets just test all the characters and see how they feel so we can all cross reference notes.

IMO they should be able to auto cancel MOST aerials on a SH (not Ganon fair for example) and just feel like they have nice flow.

Seem like a good way to do this?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
sure, but I need to make sure all codes are ported correctly
 

Dark Sonic

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Messages
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Location
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IMO they should be able to auto cancel MOST aerials on a SH (not Ganon fair for example) and just feel like they have nice flow.

Seem like a good way to do this?
In the case of some characters you should allow them to retain SH double aerials as well (Marth, DK, ect.)

For adjusting full jumps, I think it's more important to look at their double jump height (so that they can ledgehop effectively, and move from platform to platform more smoothly).

Also....where's the code? Are we still testing the one in the "first codeset" thread?
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Yes. The char. specific codes themselves are stable and fully functional, but there are a couple of glitches that need to be ironed out from spunit's codes. I thought I'd just draw discussion into this thread, to focus the conversation on the specific changes to make. It seems my plan was somewhat inefficient, though ;p.
 

The Cape

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Messages
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Location
Carlisle, PA
No changers:
Mario: No issues
Luigi: No issues
Yoshi: No issues
Diddy kong: No issues
Donkey Kong: Feels excellent
Zelda: Feels ok
Rob: Feels great
Gayimar: Feels right
King Dedede: Feels great. Feels a bit extra floaty, I dont know if thats from playing him with more grav, or from the slightly reduced speed of the game, but he feels right
MK: Feels excellent
Kirby: Feels great
***glypuff: Feels perfect. No change
Squirtle: Good
Ness: feels good I think (definetely welcome more on this one
Lucas: Feels great actually. Low SH really helps
Sonic: I feel no change to how he was before this code, and thats excellent. PERFECT feel
GW: Feels good

SH Boosters:
Bowser: SH height increased a wee bit (SH koopa claw inf jump)
Samus: SH feels higher than before, anything changed?
ZSS: SH feels too low, should be able to SH double uair
Pit: SH is too short. Should be able to autocancel uair (and maybe dair) - might be a grav issue
Marth: SH needs a SLIGHT height improvement, should be able to SH double fair and have second fair slightly below horizontal with the stage

FJ/Mid Air Boosters:
Ganon: SH seems fine, full and mid air jump need more height
Falco: Feels AMAZING. Mid air and full jumps could use a BIT more height though to compensate for the increased grav. SH is perfect though,
Falcon: feels like he falls too fast. He has a great SH, but his second and full jumps need a boost (to compensate for the fast falling)
Lucario: Second jump and full jump buff, SH is good
Ivysaur: Great (second and full jump boosts for recovery?)
Ikeasaurus: Needs mid air and full jump boost. SH feels good
Snake: WTF? SH and full hop feel the same. Full hop needs a DEFINETE boost. At least make it so he can do all four kicks in nair before he hits the ground (like before) - pretty sure this is a grav problem.

Grav fixes:
Sheik: Wow to grav on Sheik (she feels REALLY heavy) (can barely SH fair and autocancel)
Toon Link: Feels heavy, dont know if its grav or his jump. He no longer feels floaty, cant sh double bair, feel heavier in the air, but SH looks right on height. - Prob down grav problem
ICers: Up grav needs fixed. They feel heavy in the air, and their up and B goes nowhere. Lose height with individual forward B
Wolf: Lighten grav a bit. Should be able to AC sh fair, and should be able to full jump double bair. Other than that he feels great, heights are right. - Seems to go up hard, and come down a bit too fast
Charizard: Feels like he has weights on his feet (soften up down grav?)
***achu: Too much down grav, should be able to SH AC fair

Other changes:
Peach: FF and Parasol FF too slow?
Fox: Can we make fair still make him rise (move specific grav change)? Other than that he feels EXCELLENT
Wario: Gets no real height off bike jump (about as much as a full jump), cant SH bair autocancel. Neither really problems, just there

Need major work:
Link: Second jump feels like he has on the iron boots, up and B still blows, I cant decide if the SH is good or not
Full jump stinks (cant even jump on the battlefield platform)
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
Code:
RSBE01
Smash Bros Brawl (US)

A
4A000000 90000000
1416A904 BF800000
22623090 00000014
22623090 0000001C
22623090 00000023
22623090 00000024
1416A904 3F800000
E0000000 80008000

B
C2766C20 0000000F
D01F0010 807D007C
80630038 80BD0014
80DD0068 C0250040
FC210028 2C030018
40A20008 C002FFEC
2C030074 40A20008
C002FFF0 2C030005
40A2001C C046003C
C062B81C FC601850
FC021840 41A10008
C002BDB8 2C03000A
40A20008 C002FFF4
FC21002A C04283D8
FC21106E D0250040
60000000 00000000

C
C28753FC 00000005
83810034 8083013C
2C040000 41810014
1F9C000B 3B9C0016
38800005 7F9C23D6
60000000 00000000

D
C2816AF4 0000000A
3E408062 3A523320
3A60FFFF 3E730001
7E732038 1E730244
7E529A14 80120000
2C00001D 41800024
2C000022 4181001C
2C170115 41820014
38A5FFFF 2C050000
40800008 38A00002
7C0802A6 00000000

E
C27812B0 00000006
2C04000A 40A20020
8181003C 816C0018
C00B0010 C02B001C
FC000840 40A10008
38000000 5400CFFF
60000000 00000000

F
C285765C 0000005C
3FA0805A 63BD92DC
4800003C C3FD0004
480002C0 C3FD000C
480002B8 C3FD0018
480002B0 C3FD001C
480002A8 C3FD0020
480002A0 C3FD0024
48000298 C3FD002C
48000290 2C002F20
408200D4 83C3C594
C3FD0014 2C1E0000
4182FFCC 2C1E0001
4182FFAC 2C1E0003
40820008 C3FD0000
2C1E0005 4182FFA0
2C1E0008 40820008
C3FD0008 2C1E0009
4182FF9C 2C1E000B
4182FF7C 2C1E000C
4182FF7C 2C1E000D
4182FF74 2C1E0011
4182FF74 2C1E0012
4182FF64 2C1E0013
4182FF5C 2C1E0014
4182FF54 2C1E0015
4182FF4C 2C1E0016
4182FF44 2C1E0018
4182FF3C 2C1E001B
4182FF34 2C1E001F
4182FF2C 2C1E0020
4182FF24 2C1E0021
4182FF24 2C1E0025
4182FF14 2C1E0029
4182FF0C 2C1E002E
4182FF0C 2C1E002F
4182FEF4 2C002F5C
408200C0 83C3C558
C3FD0010 2C1E0001
4182FF0C 2C1E0003
4182FEF4 2C1E0005
40820008 C3FD0028
2C1E0006 4182FEC8
2C1E0008 4182FED8
2C1E0009 4182FEB8
2C1E000B 4182FED8
2C1E000D 4182FEC0
2C1E0012 4182FEB8
2C1E0013 4182FE98
2C1E0014 40820008
C3FD0014 2C1E0015
4182FE9C 2C1E0016
40820008 C3FD0028
2C1E001D 4182FE88
2C1E001F 4182FE90
2C1E0020 4182FE88
2C1E0025 4182FE78
2C1E0029 4182FE68
2C1E002C 4182FE48
2C1E002F 4182FE40
C3FD0010 480000F4
2C002F14 408200B4
83C3C59C C3FD0014
2C1E0001 4182FE28
2C1E0003 4182FFDC
2C1E0004 4182FE10
2C1E0005 4182FE08
2C1E0006 4182FE10
2C1E0008 4182FFBC
2C1E0009 4182FE00
2C1E000B 4182FE10
2C1E000D 4182FFA4
2C1E0012 4182FFA0
2C1E0013 4182FDE0
2C1E0014 4182FDC8
2C1E0015 4182FF84
2C1E0016 4182FDB8
2C1E001D 4182FF74
2C1E001F 4182FDA8
2C1E0020 4182FDA0
2C1E0025 4182FD98
2C1E0029 4182FF54
2C1E002C 4182FD98
2C1E002F 4182FD80
2C002F40 40820028
83C3C574 C3FD000C
2C1E0014 4182FD88
2C1E001E 40820008
C3FD0014 2C1E002F
4182FD74 2C002F00
4082000C C3FD001C
EC3F0072 4E800020
60000000 00000000

G
C281CAD0 00000021
2C080000 418200F8
8008F5A0 3C80805A
608492DC 4800001C
C004000C 480000DC
C0040014 480000D4
C0040024 480000CC
C0040020 2C000001
4182FFE0 2C000002
4082000C 2C09FFFF
4182FFD0 2C000003
4182FFD0 2C000005
4182FFC0 2C000006
4182FFC8 2C000008
4182FFB8 2C000009
4182FFB8 2C00000B
4182FFA0 2C00000D
4182FFA0 2C000012
4182FF98 2C000013
4182FF98 2C000014
4182FF80 2C000015
4182FF80 2C000016
4182FF70 2C00001D
4182FF70 2C00001E
4182FF60 2C00001F
4182FF58 2C000020
4182FF50 2C000025
4182FF48 2C000029
40820010 2C09FFFF
4082FF40 4BFFFF34
2C00002C 4182FF3C
2C00002F 4182FF24
EC200072 4E800020
60000000 00000000

H
C2771EAC 00000003
1C840005 38840014
39C0000A 7C8473D6
2C040000 00000000
C2876220 00000003
1C840005 38840014
39C0000A 7C8473D6
80660064 00000000

I
065A92DC 0000003C
3F59999A 3F666666
3F733333 3F800000
3F866666 3F8CCCCD
3F8EB852 3F933333
3F99999A 3FA66666
3FACCCCD 3FB33333
40000000 40800000
3FA66666 00000000

J
02FC098A 00110000

K
0481CB34 C0220020
045A9340 00000000

L
0485B784 38600001

M
04858DCC 38830003

N
02B88F48 00030001
04B87AA8 3EF851EC

O
0485E27C 40A20008

P
04B88F20 00000002

Q
C271F474 00000004
81830058 2C0C000E
4182000C C0230040
48000008 FC20D090
60000000 00000000
Thats what I am testing with. Try it
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
and my idea of nerfing MK was lowering knockback on Dsmash and other kill moves and make him less floaty
Nerfing/boosting individual moves is probably a bit unrealistic. Wouldn't that require a LOT of work, not to mention codespace? I'm just thinking that we should nerf characters using global values, such as...

It's possible to change globally for one character;
Damage Dealt, Damage Received, Knockback Dealt, Knockback Received, Gravity. However I'm still working on the ones other than gravity.
These are exactly what I'm talking about. If we can modify these on a per-character basis, then we can actually start talking about character balance in Brawl+.

Also, forgive me again for being the slow one of the bunch, but what exactly does downward gravity do?
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
I updated my jump values and SH values, but I dont want to screw with Grav until I understand the difference between Grav and D. Grav.

Can someone explain it to me please?

Gonna go with some possible values and retest hopefully and go from there.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Nerfing/boosting individual moves is probably a bit unrealistic. Wouldn't that require a LOT of work, not to mention codespace? I'm just thinking that we should nerf characters using global values, such as...



These are exactly what I'm talking about. If we can modify these on a per-character basis, then we can actually start talking about character balance in Brawl+.

Also, forgive me again for being the slow one of the bunch, but what exactly does downward gravity do?
first post in the public B+ thread shows a knockback code, so it should be more than possible
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
BRoomer
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Jun 22, 2003
Messages
7,739
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Indiana
While I agree in principle that MK should be nerfed, I think that we should be far more focused on raising other characters. I also would like to stick to the point that simpler is better. The rebalancing of SF2HDR was done with very minor changes and the addition of perhaps one move to each character. Until moves can be changed, focus on the things that we can control, and change as little as possible. Can MK be balanced simply by reducing his weight to be the lowest in the game? Thus, you'd have an offensive powerhouse that dies at 60-70.

I won't try to argue against the gravity changes anymore since it seems like everyone is devoted to them. However Cape, what are your impressions based on? I'd appreciate knowing some specific testing criteria that you are using, since certainly you don't main every character enough to know how they "feel," right?

I'll do some massive group testing this weekend with Iggy and maybe Blood Hawk. Blood is one of the Top 3-5 players in the Midwest, and enjoys Brawl+ as well. There are some very minor modifications we can make to a lot of characters that will make them insanely better.
 

The Cape

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May 16, 2004
Messages
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Carlisle, PA
I went through and tested all the aerials, SHs, full jumps, B button moves, mid air moves, recoveries, etc

I dont have someone to play with now so I cant zero in on any changes, but I can still definetly know what definetly feels wrong. I have played all the characters enough to at least get a feel for what should work with them.

I am trying to get an initial change in so they all feel a bit nicer, then we have people play them in matches (including me when I get home) and get a feel for whats right and what needs changed off of the initial changes I am looking to make with some assistance from the people here now. The things that I have pointed out are some things that feel wrong all the way to things that are glaringly wrong (Snake's full jump for example).

To reiterate. I dont think I can make the characters all feel perfect, but I can at the very least pick up on glaring problems, which will hopefully lead to a slight change. This should allow those people that main the character to get the specifics worked out from what I have found.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Sorry - Upwards Gravity applies to when the character is going up due to jumps of pretty much every variety, and SOME Up+B moves.

Downwards Gravity applies to any time the character is going down, or whenever he is made to go upwards against his will (by an attack).

I can already do character specific changes of those described above, actually. It's just in a fairly line inefficient way, and doesn't work fully in training mode (if YOU are character X, the training dummy would get the changes).
 

The Cape

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May 16, 2004
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Location
Carlisle, PA
Yea, I was doing everything in versus mode vs a CPU GW.

Let me go back and edit my list so I can properly alert to the problems between the two gravs

These have changes on the list that I found

Snake
Pit
Toon Link
Charizard
Wolf
Pika
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Cape did you figure out how to modify Almas' codeset? :-O
I tested every character, but have yet to type everything out. This was tested against 2-3 different players in 1v1's and felt pretty great.

Main gripes:

Wolf: Too heavy, no double bair is not so hot
Falcon: You can't ledgehop nair which is terrible, falls too fast. His upgrav needs to be killed a bit and downgrav lessened slightly
Olimar: Slightly more downgrav or FF speed would feel better
MK: Feels actually a little too floaty, but probably fine (I personally would add a bit more downgrav to him), he feels nerfed now compared to the other characters. We might not even need to nerf his knockback if the settings remain comparable.
Lucario: Would like to see him able to FF a bit faster, he seemed a little too dull/floaty (feels almost unchanged :O)

The good:
Toon Link: I personally think he feels pretty spot on
Link: Excellent
Fox: Amazing, ridiculously good character and feel with these settings
Falco: Seemed pretty spot on, feels like a heavy fast faller now :D
Sonic: Felt Fantastic
Lucas: Seems fine
Ness: Good
Ganon: Good
Diddy Kong: Good
DK: Very very good
GAW: very good
Snake: Excellent settings
 

The Cape

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May 16, 2004
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Carlisle, PA
Seems pretty similar results and yours are prob more accurate due to you playing matches :-p

As for Snake, did you try his fulljump?
I think MK feels right
Toon Link doesnt really feel floaty enough

Other than that I agree with everything you said. (I dont know much about Link)
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Seems pretty similar results and yours are prob more accurate due to you playing matches :-p

As for Snake, did you try his fulljump?
I think MK feels right
Toon Link doesnt really feel floaty enough

Other than that I agree with everything you said. (I dont know much about Link)
Snake personally felt fine, his weight felt massive though, but I personally think it seemed appropriate. His jumps seemed a bit nerfed, I might need to test him a bit more. Toon Link felt almost like a mid–weight character, and not a lightweight. I kind of liked it in that it let people be able to combo against him, but your prolly right, he does need to have a little more float factor.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
And for the rest of the characters:

Mario–seemed fine, only played one quick match with him though
Samus–I'm not very good with samus, hard to say on this one
Yoshi–Same as samus situation, felt ok?
Kirby– Seemed good
Pikachu– I didn't personally play, but my friend did and said pika felt fine, I'll need to get my hands on
Luigi– Beastly good.
Bowser–He's just a troubled character, man does he get combo'd
Peach–Had trouble judging her, I've never been a good peach
Zelda–Pretty good, I personally would want her Short Hop a tad shorter to make the fair/bair more hitable
Sheik– Crashed my game twice, hard to test her
Climbers– Excellent
Marth–Double fairs are a bit tight, tweak gravity or jump height to fix
G&W–amazing character
Wario–Perfect
Pit–Not too different
Squirtle–Was good, I'd want to see if we could get his jump speed any higher, though, felt kinda slow in that regard
Ivysaur–forgot to test
Dedede–same as before mostly
Ike–excellent
ROB–excellent
Jiggs–perfect
 

Dark Sonic

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Jun 10, 2006
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Sonic feels good except for one major flaw. He really needs a much faster fast fall. There is barely any difference between his normal fall and his fast fall speeds.

Marth could use a higher full jump/double jump as well. It would help him move more fluidly along platforms. It also would let him ledgehop double fair.

Pit could use a higher double jump. It feels like he gains almost no vertical distance. And none of his ledgehopped aerials autocancel anymore (he used to auto cancel fair, bair, and nair)

Other than that, I agree with The Cape's changes

@Shanus-When you say Marth's double fairs are broken, do you mean ledgehop double fairs or SH double fairs? SH double fairs are working just fine for me. And Ike definitely needs a full hop/double jump boost. He can't ledgehop side B anymore, or even do empty ledgehops, and he can't even reach the top platform on battlefield with both his full hop and his second jump.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Sonic feels good except for one major flaw. He really needs a much faster fast fall. There is barely any difference between his normal fall and his fast fall speeds.

Marth could use a higher full jump/double jump as well. It would help him move more fluidly along platforms. It also would let him ledgehop double fair.

Pit could use a higher double jump. It feels like he gains almost no vertical distance. And none of his ledgehopped aerials autocancel anymore (he used to auto cancel fair, bair, and nair)


@Shanus-When you say Marth's double fairs are broken, do you mean ledgehop double fairs or SH double fairs? SH double fairs are working just fine for me.

Other than that, I agree with The Cape's changes
It just felt too short, like it wasnt all the way out. I'm not a good marth but it just seemed like a slightly bigger window would work better. I'm not a great marth though, so if you think its right, fine with me!
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
It just felt too short, like it wasnt all the way out. I'm not a good marth but it just seemed like a slightly bigger window would work better. I'm not a great marth though, so if you think its right, fine with me!
I think his SHDF works fine. Although I do think he needs a SH increase (and full jump and double jump).

He needs the SH increase so that he can do things after his SH bair (before he could fair or jump). He needs double jump so that he can ledgehop double fair again, and so that he can move more easily across platforms (it's not nearly as fluid as before). He doesn't really need Full hop...is once again for faster platform movement, but this time to be able to reach upper platforms more quickly. Right now he has to wait until the apex of his full hop and then double jump and then just barely reaches the upper platforms. It needs to be faster.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Yeah, I thought that Fast Fall and DGrav multiplied from some delusion (so if you had 1.3 DGrav you'd also have 1.3 FF). They don't - Grav will multiply with either of them, but they won't interact with each other. So the characters with >1 DGrav need their FF changed to similar values.
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
Hmmm... would it work best to make individual topics for each character, and discuss 3-4 per week until we go through them all? I feel like this discussion is going all over the place and some comments are getting missed.

Also:
Bowser–He's just a troubled character, man does he get combo'd
I think Bowser needs some extra defense, but gravity probably isn't the best way to go there. But I'm not sure why his SH and FH are changed at all. I really didn't like it when I tried it.

Who set Bowser's values? Can anyone explain why they are the way they are?

(For anyone that doesn't know, I'm a Bowser main)
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
3,577
Location
Playing melee and smash ultimate
No. At least not for our initial release. Why split testing among a dozen or so people for something that ultimately we will need the input of everyone on? We only need to get the values "about right" for now. Tweaking things can be done later as people play more with the characters.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
No. At least not for our initial release. Why split testing among a dozen or so people for something that ultimately we will need the input of everyone on? We only need to get the values "about right" for now. Tweaking things can be done later as people play more with the characters.
100% agreed. I think right now we all agree on a few characters who just need to be tweaked before we can do a true beta release of the code.

Then we can really split the work up.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
@Squared
I set all of the characters initial values. I obviously don't have extensive character knowledge so yeah, there are a few problems here and there. I think overall I did a good job though :-P. As far as balancing Bowser goes, I have a topic on the Brawl+ forums. I post it here in it's own topic, most people seemed to agree with it, I'd like your take on it too.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
I guess I'm going to try and get the framework for this code down tomorrow. If someone could copy my list and set up another one to use (with the suggestions implemented) it'd save me some time, thanks. Remember you have 16 variables to choose from!
 

The Cape

Smash Master
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
4,478
Location
Carlisle, PA
I think Dark Sonic, Shanus, and myself had about the same stance on all of the values. We should be able to rewrite your numbers for another test and see if the chars feel a bit more right.

We arent going for perfect right now, but we definetly want it closer than it is. (About half the cast feels just right, but the other need some tweaks)

Edit: Found this on my youtube. Made me happy (because we are on target)

capefeather has made a comment on Nakamaru (Samus) vs Cape (Wolf):
Wow. All this time, I thought Brawl+ was just a collection of small tweaks to make Brawl play more like Melee, but I guess I was wrong...
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
@Squared
I set all of the characters initial values. I obviously don't have extensive character knowledge so yeah, there are a few problems here and there. I think overall I did a good job though :-P. As far as balancing Bowser goes, I have a topic on the Brawl+ forums. I post it here in it's own topic, most people seemed to agree with it, I'd like your take on it too.
Cool man, I meant no offense by it, I was just wondering who set the initial values :D I'm definitely planning on playing with it, and I'll post my thoughts in the Bowser thread you made.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
so we have 16 variables to mess with?
upgrav, downgrav, dashspeed, sh height, fullhop height, second jump height, damage, fastfall.

and thats just 8. **** we have a lot of options
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 22, 2003
Messages
7,739
Location
Indiana
What exactly can we do with moves? I'd like clarification on this, because as of now I thought we could do nothing with them, and even if we could, I thought codespace would become a problem so fast it would be silly.
 
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