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WIP Internal Tier List for Balancing Purposes [LOW RESULTS OUT]
- Thread starter Shell
- Start date
I think I forgot to put Wolf on my bottom 10 so I put in bottom 9 instead or something...lol. <.<
My list was:
Falcon
Ivysaur
Ganondorf
King Dedede
Yoshi
Bowser
PT
Link
Ike
Wolf
Falcon - Yeah GoG probably said everything obvious. I mean it's the Captain. =/
Ivysaur - Kinda like Falcon in how knowing the match-up makes her not look so grand, without the getting comboed like hell part. However she seems to have zero practical offstage options to try to defend herself or fight for the ledge other than Razor Leaf.
Ganondorf - He has terrible defensive options, but it is offset by the fact that he can wrack up damage quick. Giving him his Side-B would bring back a core of his vB game and support his image in Brawl+.
King Dedede - Since he lost his CG to edgeguard, I think making uair a move to juggle more be better. Giving him the option to juggle trap would be good since his vertical killers are already good...even though it doesn't seem like you can combo into them. Maybe give his uthrow less lag? He moveset looks (imo) that it could work more with juggling than anything else.
Yoshi - I'll be honest I don't know a single thing on him in Brawl+. Taking him on a test run, he seems to have a crazy problem with killing people. He seems like he has potential but feels limited all the same. Perhaps make the hitbox on his UpB eggs a little bigger, maybe make his nair sex kick send up and away (it seems to be a good move even in its current state, just a suggestion)? Make usmash larger, and/or make fair have more stun (fair to uair on stage at higher %'s?).
Bowser - Buffing up his grab game and/or his tilts' size would probably benefit him. He needs to relieve pressure and take people the ledge quick, which is where he starts to **** people. That seems to be the general idea anyway.
PT - Err...I can't really find anything except maybe Ivysaur. <_< But seriously, there is little reason to use him as of now. A lot of PT's lack of rep in vB is because a lot of players just wanted to use ONE Pokemon, not be forced to learn 3 knowing Ivy kinda sucks and probably brings the other two down. Implementing a less punishable switch system is pretty much the only way to make using him seem rewarding over Squirtle.
Link - Bombs having set knockback would help out his combo game more. Give utilit less winddown (Marth treatment). Uair should be a good finisher of all of this. I believe it has already been buffed to be similar to TL's "sex kick deluxe" uair.
Ike - He feels almost subpar but I also think there's not much one can do to 'fix' him. He has great strengths, with awesome moves like Quick Draw which was created for the sake of tech chasing, yet he seems to have problems linking into kill moves and on the other hand gets comboed relatively well. His character really speaks to higher level players exploiting what they can, as Ike himself is relatively shallow.
Wolf - Bad recovery, mediocre edgeguarder, only a handful of combos, yet gets comboed badly himself. Making utilt have less lag after hitbox or/in conjunction with a larger hitbox would help him have another option to juggle the opponent. Buffing his jab's damage while compensating with KBG would help too (9 dmg for all three hits is -_-).
Wolf does shine (pun) in the department of ****** his fellow spacies.
Although I didn't vote for this, he seems like he needs help (seems like ppl are already working on him):
Pit. Terrible recovery due to gravity changes, laggy moves with lots of windown...and even when fastfell, his moves lag considerably more than other characters. Fix side-B, sour bair, maybe give a higher ALR reduction to nair and less winddown on dair. Uair seems fine due to how ridiculous it is if it all links together anyway.
Hard to say when it comes to the lower tiers for me. I really don't have much experience with any of them except for Ganon. But that's because of Zeon lol. -_-
My list was:
Falcon
Ivysaur
Ganondorf
King Dedede
Yoshi
Bowser
PT
Link
Ike
Wolf
Falcon - Yeah GoG probably said everything obvious. I mean it's the Captain. =/
Ivysaur - Kinda like Falcon in how knowing the match-up makes her not look so grand, without the getting comboed like hell part. However she seems to have zero practical offstage options to try to defend herself or fight for the ledge other than Razor Leaf.
Ganondorf - He has terrible defensive options, but it is offset by the fact that he can wrack up damage quick. Giving him his Side-B would bring back a core of his vB game and support his image in Brawl+.
King Dedede - Since he lost his CG to edgeguard, I think making uair a move to juggle more be better. Giving him the option to juggle trap would be good since his vertical killers are already good...even though it doesn't seem like you can combo into them. Maybe give his uthrow less lag? He moveset looks (imo) that it could work more with juggling than anything else.
Yoshi - I'll be honest I don't know a single thing on him in Brawl+. Taking him on a test run, he seems to have a crazy problem with killing people. He seems like he has potential but feels limited all the same. Perhaps make the hitbox on his UpB eggs a little bigger, maybe make his nair sex kick send up and away (it seems to be a good move even in its current state, just a suggestion)? Make usmash larger, and/or make fair have more stun (fair to uair on stage at higher %'s?).
Bowser - Buffing up his grab game and/or his tilts' size would probably benefit him. He needs to relieve pressure and take people the ledge quick, which is where he starts to **** people. That seems to be the general idea anyway.
PT - Err...I can't really find anything except maybe Ivysaur. <_< But seriously, there is little reason to use him as of now. A lot of PT's lack of rep in vB is because a lot of players just wanted to use ONE Pokemon, not be forced to learn 3 knowing Ivy kinda sucks and probably brings the other two down. Implementing a less punishable switch system is pretty much the only way to make using him seem rewarding over Squirtle.
Link - Bombs having set knockback would help out his combo game more. Give utilit less winddown (Marth treatment). Uair should be a good finisher of all of this. I believe it has already been buffed to be similar to TL's "sex kick deluxe" uair.
Ike - He feels almost subpar but I also think there's not much one can do to 'fix' him. He has great strengths, with awesome moves like Quick Draw which was created for the sake of tech chasing, yet he seems to have problems linking into kill moves and on the other hand gets comboed relatively well. His character really speaks to higher level players exploiting what they can, as Ike himself is relatively shallow.
Wolf - Bad recovery, mediocre edgeguarder, only a handful of combos, yet gets comboed badly himself. Making utilt have less lag after hitbox or/in conjunction with a larger hitbox would help him have another option to juggle the opponent. Buffing his jab's damage while compensating with KBG would help too (9 dmg for all three hits is -_-).
Wolf does shine (pun) in the department of ****** his fellow spacies.
Although I didn't vote for this, he seems like he needs help (seems like ppl are already working on him):
Pit. Terrible recovery due to gravity changes, laggy moves with lots of windown...and even when fastfell, his moves lag considerably more than other characters. Fix side-B, sour bair, maybe give a higher ALR reduction to nair and less winddown on dair. Uair seems fine due to how ridiculous it is if it all links together anyway.
Hard to say when it comes to the lower tiers for me. I really don't have much experience with any of them except for Ganon. But that's because of Zeon lol. -_-
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
Okay, the results are in. I don't think that the exact order matters at this point, but if you feel compelled to write one here that's fine.
Now, continue to post your ideas for final tweaks in the respective WBR character threads so that we can keep things organized.
Now, continue to post your ideas for final tweaks in the respective WBR character threads so that we can keep things organized.
Okay. So now will someone considering disjointing bowser's hitboxes? Move them out further and away from his hurtbox. V:
If anyone cares, another idea is to shrink his hurtbox either by making him smaller or his hitboxes
If anyone cares, another idea is to shrink his hurtbox either by making him smaller or his hitboxes
Veril
Frame Savant
There are only a few characters that really stand out to me as being really sub-par, so it was tough to think of a bottom ten.
Falcon is an obvious one, since he suffers so much from CGs and gets absolutely ***** by combos. He has great vertical survivability, a good punishing game, sick combos... doesn't balance out since his priority is so low that actually landing the hit to start a combo isn't especially difficult. I really don't like the idea of giving him many buffs simultaneously. A change in how much hitstun he suffers would eliminate what I feel is the core problem. While goodoldganon's ideas as to how to buff him are all good individually, I don't think we should go out of our way to make a character "above the curve". Following the "poster-child" logic, which I understand but strongly disagree with, Mario should be put above the curve as well, maybe Link, etc. We shouldn't play favorites or fix what isn't broken. The weakness to combos is so bad that it truly deserves fixing. Whether that is possible at the moment isn't really relevant. Its a shame if we can't do it, but that doesn't mean we should buff him in other ways, only to be forced to totally rethink him once we can change character specific hitstun (can we?).
Yoshi isn't terrible, but he's pretty unimpressive in every way. The only exception to this is probably the eggs, which can be free damage after throws, and any vertical hit really. If an aerial combo is pretty much finished, you can usually egg the person. I tested it, admittedly in a cursory manner, and eggs tacked onto an aerial combo are often true combos. The eggs aren't what I think need fixing. Egg buffs... ugh, no. The eggs aren't amazing, but they aren't his real problem. Like Bowser, he's lost his grab releases, and his followups from throws are pretty unimpressive (not Jiggs bad, but not good). This is a shame since his pivot grab is fantastic. Reducing the start-up on his f-air would be a great place to start for making his aerial game less meh. Obviously there are other things but I really do believe in making one change at a time, at least in experimental sets. Changes that improve his combo game could work as well. While some people have been saying Yoshi has crazy combos... he doesn't, not compared to most of the cast.
Bowser is bad, but not because he's easy to combo. I'm sure you all know that's a fallacy, but some people still believe it. He's not as hard to vertically KO, but he still can live for quite a while. He really has problems with projectiles though, his fat a** effectively has a bulls-eye painted on it. No grab-releases. There's a huge loss for him. So, as far as I've seen, his grab-game is lame.
Improving Ivysaur (basically just improving his recovery somehow) would fix the problem to a large extent. Gurukid has a fantastic squirtle, and I f***ing hate playing against it. But, he plays PT because he likes all of them and having the option to switch (he also hates the Marth vs. Squirtle matchup). I don't think Charizard requires a buff at this point. When we have a clearer idea as to the matchups for each of the 3, it will be easier to decide what to do to balance the 3 against eachother and make sure they have a diverse set of matchups.
Falcon is an obvious one, since he suffers so much from CGs and gets absolutely ***** by combos. He has great vertical survivability, a good punishing game, sick combos... doesn't balance out since his priority is so low that actually landing the hit to start a combo isn't especially difficult. I really don't like the idea of giving him many buffs simultaneously. A change in how much hitstun he suffers would eliminate what I feel is the core problem. While goodoldganon's ideas as to how to buff him are all good individually, I don't think we should go out of our way to make a character "above the curve". Following the "poster-child" logic, which I understand but strongly disagree with, Mario should be put above the curve as well, maybe Link, etc. We shouldn't play favorites or fix what isn't broken. The weakness to combos is so bad that it truly deserves fixing. Whether that is possible at the moment isn't really relevant. Its a shame if we can't do it, but that doesn't mean we should buff him in other ways, only to be forced to totally rethink him once we can change character specific hitstun (can we?).
Yoshi isn't terrible, but he's pretty unimpressive in every way. The only exception to this is probably the eggs, which can be free damage after throws, and any vertical hit really. If an aerial combo is pretty much finished, you can usually egg the person. I tested it, admittedly in a cursory manner, and eggs tacked onto an aerial combo are often true combos. The eggs aren't what I think need fixing. Egg buffs... ugh, no. The eggs aren't amazing, but they aren't his real problem. Like Bowser, he's lost his grab releases, and his followups from throws are pretty unimpressive (not Jiggs bad, but not good). This is a shame since his pivot grab is fantastic. Reducing the start-up on his f-air would be a great place to start for making his aerial game less meh. Obviously there are other things but I really do believe in making one change at a time, at least in experimental sets. Changes that improve his combo game could work as well. While some people have been saying Yoshi has crazy combos... he doesn't, not compared to most of the cast.
Bowser is bad, but not because he's easy to combo. I'm sure you all know that's a fallacy, but some people still believe it. He's not as hard to vertically KO, but he still can live for quite a while. He really has problems with projectiles though, his fat a** effectively has a bulls-eye painted on it. No grab-releases. There's a huge loss for him. So, as far as I've seen, his grab-game is lame.
This.
Blasphemy!
The basic concept of trading consistency for forced diversity is what makes this character... a character really. Switching should not be safe for the above reasons, I think it should be somewhat faster, but the idea of a safer entrance is terrible.
Improving Ivysaur (basically just improving his recovery somehow) would fix the problem to a large extent. Gurukid has a fantastic squirtle, and I f***ing hate playing against it. But, he plays PT because he likes all of them and having the option to switch (he also hates the Marth vs. Squirtle matchup). I don't think Charizard requires a buff at this point. When we have a clearer idea as to the matchups for each of the 3, it will be easier to decide what to do to balance the 3 against eachother and make sure they have a diverse set of matchups.
Yup. That's about it. Ganon is mad fun, and he isn't meant to be a defensive character. He gets the s*** comboed out of him, then lands like a 3-hit combo, and the person is half dead already. The side-b must be brought back though. When people tech out of that move a little piece of me dies.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
So are you guys gonna start this over since the new wbr members joined? I doubt most of them agree with this list. (I certainly don't. I'll post about it later.)
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Well I got my low votes in, and as for my top 10 it'd probably go:
Marth
ROB
MK
Shiek
Diddy
Pikachu
Falco
Squirtle
ZSS
We don't necessarily have to reset anything, just add our votes to the current total. Since its all saved and all.
Marth
ROB
MK
Shiek
Diddy
Pikachu
Falco
Squirtle
ZSS
We don't necessarily have to reset anything, just add our votes to the current total. Since its all saved and all.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
uh....Fox?
Marth is overrated. He's probably borderline mid/high tier.
Diddy's recovery is too horrible to be top ten.
ZSS has nice combos but can't kill.
idk enough about pika but I haven't been impressed by any to date.
ROB is meh because he gets combo'd easily. His offstage game is nice but that's about it.
Sheik would be up there if she could kill.
Killing isn't ZSS's problem so much as it's just her downright ****ty approach game. She gets kills off just about any hit she can land at high %, the problem is she has no real options but to play gay and pseudo-camp the entire match if you want to win with her.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
ZSS has just as many setups, combos and kill moves with better ranged options and recovery. Fox was close behind though.
I think a good Marth that always combos into tippers and spaces well can clean up most the cast. There are only a few characters I'd say have an advantage against him, those being Snake and ROB. Though he probably has a few even matchups too.
And Fox's isn't? Diddy can save his jump, jump with airdodge, has a decent side-B, can still arc his rockets to sweetspot, and overall he still goes farther then a lot of characters. His recovery just takes smarts.
Like Yeroc said, that isn't really a problem. Most her moves can combo into a RAR'd Bair, she has a few combos with Side-B, and of course her armor is always useful for quick stock leads.
Pikachu is amazing, I'd say hes better then Squirtle easily. His combos are just as if not more devestating, he has better range, easier kill setups, better recovery, and a projectile.
I think ROB's projectile and punishment game is what makes him. Really he doesn't get combo'd any easier then Fox, and he does have good follow-ups too.
Her DACUS and gimps are great for killing. She really doesn't have trouble comboing or getting people off-stage either.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
uh...all i have to say is...fox? seriously? you don't think he's top 10 at least?! like...what? 
anyway...
Like yeroc said, zss can't approach. Fox can. SHDL's, shff'd nairs, amazing speed, and he has combos that can kill. Dair upsmash?
Marth is borderline mid/high tier. His combos are weak, has no safe kill moves, and has a terrible recovery. Speed and range are all he has.
Fox is much much much better than diddy both onstage and off. diddy still has trouble killing, and diddy offstage is pretty much a dead diddy, while the same doesn't apply for fox.
Pikachu might be good but he's not top tier like squirtle is.
He gets combo'd easier than fox because of his size.
Her gimps are good vs bad recoveries. Sheik's recovery sucks so being offstage isn't safe for her. Her combos are meh and her killing is abysmal.
Actually, never mind. Forget everything I said. Fox isn't top ten. I suggest we buff him to help him out a bit.
anyway...
Like yeroc said, zss can't approach. Fox can. SHDL's, shff'd nairs, amazing speed, and he has combos that can kill. Dair upsmash?
Marth is borderline mid/high tier. His combos are weak, has no safe kill moves, and has a terrible recovery. Speed and range are all he has.
Fox is much much much better than diddy both onstage and off. diddy still has trouble killing, and diddy offstage is pretty much a dead diddy, while the same doesn't apply for fox.
Pikachu might be good but he's not top tier like squirtle is.
He gets combo'd easier than fox because of his size.
Her gimps are good vs bad recoveries. Sheik's recovery sucks so being offstage isn't safe for her. Her combos are meh and her killing is abysmal.
Actually, never mind. Forget everything I said. Fox isn't top ten. I suggest we buff him to help him out a bit
.
Veril
Frame Savant
Ugh, I gotta go to work now. I'll be back at 10:30ish to explain why Pikachu is nuts.
The Cape
Smash Master
Yes!
You keep assuming that Marth has to kill to win. Spaced fair and sideB makes approaching nearly impossible for the opponent if used correctly. If Marth can take an early lead with a gimp or lucky F smash then its game over since its very hard to approach him. You keep making the assumption that Marth has to kill someone to win, instead of running out the clock. Thats my biggest argument on him.
You keep assuming that Marth has to kill to win. Spaced fair and sideB makes approaching nearly impossible for the opponent if used correctly. If Marth can take an early lead with a gimp or lucky F smash then its game over since its very hard to approach him. You keep making the assumption that Marth has to kill someone to win, instead of running out the clock. Thats my biggest argument on him.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
I didn't know this was the back room for vBrawl, my bad
. Forcing marth to run out the clock to win is pretty silly if I do say so myself. I'd be pretty frustrated if the only way for my main to win was by playing a game that I turned to in order to avoid the BS of vbrawl is to play exactly like vbrawl...
The Cape
Smash Master
Thing is, you dont HAVE to be aggressive to win. It may be one of his best strats as it forces the enemy to approach. Marth has always been a campy little **** and always will be. Its just how his moveset it.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
Marth in melee could either camp or be aggressive. That choice depends on the player's style. Dash dance camping was very powerful. I've heard Lord Knight does it a lot. Marth was able to overwhelm opponents with his aggressive style as well if he wanted.
Marth (and pretty much everyone in brawl) had to camp in vbrawl because being aggressive in vbrawl had a horrible risk/reward ratio of attacking.
Marth not having to approach in brawl+? Have fun being camped by Fox, Falco, Pikachu, ROB, Sheik, Wolf, Snake, Ivysaur, Mario, and pretty much anyone else with a good projectile then. As a Fox player I would have no problem simply shooting lasers at a Marth who won't approach me.
If that's seriously your mentality then what makes brawl+ marth different from vbrawl marth?
Seems like you have some bias against Marth. Don't let that ruin Marth main's chances of winning *in Brawl+ please.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
The most Fox has to help with approaching is his speed though. ZSS has speed, range, and really I think her Dtilt is a great approach. It leads in to most her bread and butter.
His tippers are all great kill moves, and being able to combo into them period is worth mentioning. He really doesn't need to capitalize too much on combos, hes hard to combo himself and hard to approach too.
I disagree. Diddy's pressure and setups, with or without banana just wrecks people now that he can capitalize with a combo. Diddy's Fair helps him kill better now that he has momentum with it, and Diddy never had trouble with his weak kill moves before and now he can setup better for them. Diddy's recovery is better then you give credit, and I'd arguably say him and Fox are a little short of being equal in that regard so long as the Diddy is good at recovering.
I don't understand what Squirtle has over Pika, elaborate?
Fox is a fast faller, so size doesn't make a bit of difference. ROB's a bigger target, but thats not really relevant as far as comboing him goes.
Her combos are amazing if you techchase and read right, as far as gimps go she still racks up damage really fast off-stage and I fail to see how her recovery is really that bad. The chain is pretty good when both players are off-stage. So it doesn't affect her edgeguarding abilities. Like I said, DACUS or just Usmash in general is great for killing. Techchase or combo into it and she has no problems in that area. Fair really isn't bad either.
Also, most the people you mentioned with projectiles get wrecked by Marth in other ways. Mario and Ivysaur first off, their projectiles get broken by any move Marth has. Just fair through them. Fox, Falco and Wolf just get gimped to heck by him. Sheik and Pika may be about even if not 55:45, and I agree that Snake and ROB may have the advantage.
And I wish people would stop mentioning Melee Marth. Melee was a different game with chars who made better use of momentum, 1 frame punishment options, movement options, crouch canceling, shield pressure, and overall just had different factors that need to be taken into account. Marth's tippers kill better now, his dancing blade is that much more reliable, and people just don't have the same ways to deal with him as before. He does still have top tier potential.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
Diddy is amazing. Easily some of the best combo's in the game. Easily. Add that with some of the most **** projectiles, which can be comb'd into, camped with, etc and you see how well he can play. Also, it isn't that hard to recover as diddy. At all. Any diddy who says that just hasn't practiced enough diddy+. Hell I barely even play diddy and I can sweetspot it pretty easily.
Pika is easily top 10. Even after we fix that CG, easy top 10. Absurd combos, easy thunder kills. When you fight a good one, its scary.
ROB is ~top 10. He has epic camping, which is augmented by his ability to now combo out of it. An aggressive ROB will get **** on, but when played right, he has easy 30-50% combos out of any crap, epic spacing, and can combo/throw into nair for kills.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
This is all a mess
People want some start over for new recruits
I personally really disagree with choosing top 10 and low 10.
I'm going to restart my old tier list project later today. It made A LOT more sense to this, and gave a better look over the whole cast.
People want some start over for new recruits
I personally really disagree with choosing top 10 and low 10.
I'm going to restart my old tier list project later today. It made A LOT more sense to this, and gave a better look over the whole cast.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
Mauser I'll respond to you in a bit, but following your logic, I guess it's safe to say that Fox is rather mediocre
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Not top 10 doesn't necessarily mean mediocre.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
Chibo, if you want to restart the voting process a different way, go for it.
I don't, however, think that it really matters at this point. We've got the list of the characters that could use a bit of help.
Other than a few disagreements about the absolute top, we're pretty much on the same page there now, too. What would starting over with a different system accomplish right now? We don't really need a super accurate list with perfect order, just something to get us on track for final tweaks. I agree that it needs to be done properly a bit after Gold is released, though.
I don't, however, think that it really matters at this point. We've got the list of the characters that could use a bit of help.
Other than a few disagreements about the absolute top, we're pretty much on the same page there now, too. What would starting over with a different system accomplish right now? We don't really need a super accurate list with perfect order, just something to get us on track for final tweaks. I agree that it needs to be done properly a bit after Gold is released, though.
Veril
Frame Savant
This.
Something about Ganon that I feel is worth mentioning: his up-b grab... you can still nair him post-release with a bunch of the cast. That has got to get fixed. If a person actually gets grabbed by that, they do not deserve a free hit. Ganon's recovery isn't exactly stellar as it is.
is cute. He's fun to play as. He's an iconic character in the smash series... and he is ****. Even without the CG, he has several amazing attributes.-Fantastic recovery as well as multiple tools for edgeguarding.
-unique, fast and versatile movement options via QAC.
-a sick combo game (ignoring the grabs for now): up-air, f-air, and up-tilt are fantastic comboing moves. They can all lead into eachother as well as d-smash, thunder (which can be possible even if they DI), etc. QAC is so good here. I'm testing some OOQAC combos tonight, and I have off tomorrow so I'll be retesting with DI (yay friends), so I should have some hard data for everyone.
-the BEST grab game: he has multiple tools for landing the grab and when he does, there are several options out of it. D-throw n-air is hard to escape and can easily KO. My best friend, not pro by any means, nearly always lands killing n-airs on my Jiggs out of d-throw. ON JIGGS! WITH DI! wtf pikachu. F-air > QA forced getup > f-smash... there's a whole plethora of options open to pikachu regardless of how the opponent DIs.
-KOing: n-air and thunder. While Pikachu can't KO very early, there are solid setups for these moves and QAC helps counteract an opponents DI.
-thunderjolt: nuff said really.
The CG: now, I know its getting the ax ASAP, but currently, ie. not at some unknown future date, the CG is insane. It makes me think of brawl DDD, its that good. On FFers, it makes the matchups insanely one-sided. And if the opponent DIs to the edge of the stage, you can just n-air instead of a regrab. You can also QA to force them to stand up and regrab (spacing and % dependent, but still). Or if you're a huge jerk, like me, you can pivot grab CF. At low % the CG doesn't work on its own, but I think it might be possible to jab the and force them to stand (no tech roll for you
)Pikachu has some of the most one-sided matchups of any character at this point imo. Its very difficult to "not get grabbed" by Pikachu, especially for Falcon. I'm testing this tonight: FH thunderjolt > QAC grab. If its legit... well... idk, I'll be kinda sad.
I think for the game, now, if it is to be used competitively, we need to find a way to fix this. GHNeko has told me there's no way to do it without ruining Pika's d-throw. Personally, I think that's acceptable, and I'm using Pika as a second. Pika won't suddenly be in the bottom ten without his options out of that move, and besides, this is a really talented group. Is there really nothing we can do?
Revven
FrankerZ
Pika's CG could probably get fixed given the two options:
1) PK or Almas gets us that Throw Modifier code asap and we can start messing with the knockback on the move so it's not possible to CG with but, possible to AT LEAST get Utilt from it.
2) Character specific hitstun comes and saves the day (more unlikely unless Almas is secretly working it into his rewritten engine codes).
1) PK or Almas gets us that Throw Modifier code asap and we can start messing with the knockback on the move so it's not possible to CG with but, possible to AT LEAST get Utilt from it.
2) Character specific hitstun comes and saves the day (more unlikely unless Almas is secretly working it into his rewritten engine codes).
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Falco, that's not the point. Fact is, at least according to Veril, Pikachu is 8 tons of **** in a 15 pound package. Adjusting the D-throw with out current codes would probably horribly ruin the d-throw, but maybe Pikachu doesn't need an amazing grab game. Nerfs are never fun to give it, but we'll just have to wait and see I guess.
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
The problem with fixing the down throw is its all or nothing. We've tried adjusting it with semi nerfs, but its still can CG for a while, just starting at higher percents!. His utilt and upsmash have similar startup lag to the regrab as well. Its just
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Yeah. And the only way to nerf the dthrow while keeping utilt setups would be to decrease utilt's startup by a considerable amount, which isn't too appealing of an option.
We need the throw modifier =(
We need the throw modifier =(
Veril
Frame Savant
I refuse to post a video explaining the CG on Youtube. However, I recently opened up a mediafire account so I'm gonna try and get my CG methods up. Probably not today, but its in the works.
doesn't matter, jab regrab... it works now on characters who can't be CGed at low %
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
On a lot of FF'ers, so long as Pikachu can Dthrow into Utilt he could just regrab them after the Utilt. Dthrow > Utilt > DAC Reverse grab even works. Honestly, I would be happy if Pikachu could just still combo Dthrow into Nair or Uair.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
If you mean using a throw modifier... that could be acceptable (I'd still like to see utilt, though), but if you're talking about using the tools we currently have available, then that would be impossible without also enabling the regrab. It takes longer to jump and perform an aerial than it does to grab.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Yes, I mean using a throw modifier if/when we get one.
Also, if we do eventually have to nerf Dthrow to the point there is no use, how about buffing Fthrow to have guaranteed follow-ups of its own? Fthrow Usmash is something I already do a lot, simply because Usmash has just enough range. I'm not sure what it would take for Fthrow Nair to be legit though.