Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[Crispy4001]

Only posting this here because it's the only dedicated Final Smash discussion thread I've seen at the moment, but this thread has someone state that Peach's Final Smash is actually any one of her "vibes" from Super Princess Peach, and one other that is known is one that "makes spiky balls rain down", most likely Rage Vibe. So if this is true, we don't know yet about what her other Vibes will do (Gloom and Joy), but it makes for interesting news, 'cause a Peach Player can't expect to get her rain of recovery every time she gets the Smash Ball. Interesting prospect.

Just great, more randomness.

 

[ripa9]

I hope its not an item so they couldnt ban it from tournaments.

 

[Zauron]

Personally, I really hope crates, barrels, and capsules can be turned off, so tourneys can have Smash Orbs as the only item allowed without having to turn them on too. Yes, Smash Orbs give some randomness, which I hate. However, so does Luigi's Side+B, Peach's turnips/death turnips, and several other moves, as well as stage hazards on many tournament-allowed stages.

Final Smashes aren't at all like other items in that they have a completely different effect per character. To me, this means that they are part of the balancing factors of the characters. I would guess that the tier list may look quite different depending on whether or not Final Smashes are taken into account.

While I wish they were more non-random, the smash orbs are still the most fair item I've heard of in Smash. You have to hit it several times, and it moves away from you when you as you attack it, giving another a chance at it. Faster characters can get to it quicker, however, heavy characters can smash it open faster, making it more fair than normal items where the fast guy always has the advantage.

It also adds to the meta game and mind games. Once you get it, you have 2 options - to use it immediately and risk not getting its full benefit, or save it for the best opportunity and risk getting the power stolen by your opponent. On the flipside, the one who does not get it has 2 options - try to quickly get to them and beat it out of them to get it for yourself, or position yourself to avoid the attack. Perhaps try to trick the other guy into using it just to avoid it and punish (similar to dealing with Samus with her shot fully charged, but on a bigger scale - the FS will do more damage if it goes off, but also can open them up bigtime for a counter attack). Many mind game opportunities. Even getting the orb may be a mind game, because smashing someone to their death while their attention is focused on getting the smash orb is a viable tactic.

Finally, from what I've seen, they aren't as overpowering as some people make them out to be. In fact I thought they'd be more powerful, but most of them seem to perfectly survivable. I assumed getting one would probably mean pretty much a free stock from the other guy, but even ones you have to aim well to use don't necessarily mean a free KO from what the videos show so far. Proper dodging, use of terrain, DI, actually bothering to block, etc. should make a big difference. Most FS's seem marginally more effective than Samus's fully charged shot for getting a kill, especially when you consider the players in the videos aren't using any defense at all (not even blocking!). Plus, oftin its a much more dangerous prospect to use the FS than it would be to use Samus's charged shot, opening you up for counter attacks, making it difficult to navigate without falling to your death, etc.

So I believe Smash Orbs should be allowed in tournaments, assuming they can be used with ALL other items (including exploding capsules) turned off. They are a core component of what makes Brawl unique and are part of the balancing for characters. From what we've seen, there are many ways to avoid being killed by them and you have the opportunity yourself to use them to your own advantage. Its not like other fighting games don't have somwhat similar mechanics.

At the very least, I hope the tourney scene develops multiple categories of tournaments - one with FS's and one without, and 2 tier lists, one for each style. Although I'd guess eventually one or the other would be more populare and become the norm. Despite what some here seem to feel, I'd hazard a guess that FS's turned on has a very good chance to be the more popular option.

 

[Crispy4001]

I simply don't understand how someone who would want crates and barrels removed would prefer super powerful attacks usable only by kicking a randomly spawning bouncing orb.



How is this balanced exactly? I've yet to read a good arguement here that explains that. We've heard all about how getting and pulling off the move is supposed to be: Yes, there's a chance you can miss. Yes, there's might be a smidge of thought and strategy required to kill the ball first. Yes, you can knock it off your opponent. Yes, there's a proper and improper way to pull them off...


But nothing's getting at the fact that it opens up a gargantuan window for one player (not both/all) to unleash hell's fury while everyone else is forced to play run-away. Nothing has refuted the invincibility granted for many of them. Nothing changes that these moves can deal 40%+ in one go, and/or can ring out at low percents. Nothing has refuted the massive range some of them have (think how much bigger Samus FS is compared to a charged B).


Honestly now, I know some of you really like the idea of these attacks. That's cool, they're definately going to be a blast for casual fun.

But to say these are fair on a competitive level doesn't work. The payoff for earning a smash ball is tenfold greater than the effort it takes to get it. As soon as the screen darkens, you're either on the up side, or you're on the down side. In order to switch sides, you'll have to knock it out of them (fat chance against tournament players knowing their stuff ... plus albino DK took 42% and STILL didn't get it knocked out of him). Only other options are to ride it out and hope you won't get hit, or pray they commit suicide.

That's not balance.

 

[Zauron]

So is Samus's charged shot, which can KO someone from the other side of the stage, unbalanced and should be banned from tournaments? How about Luigi's side+B, which can RANDOMLY do a ton of damage and KO people at fairly low percents? Should Luigi be banned from tournaments? What about Peach's death turnip, randomly pulled out, which you have to have a very good eye in the midst of an intense battle to even realize its a death turnip, and is very likely to KO you. Should Peach be banned from tournaments?

All of these can be avoided. Most have far less warning than a Smash Orb. The difference between them and exploding capsules is that the capsules can spawn, right above your head, fall on you, explode, and kill you, before you even knew they were there, and have no way to counter them, and have nothing to do with your opponent. Smash Orbs are not like that. They are obvious. There is a decent amount of time to do something about them. They won't lead to sudden random deaths. The opponent must do something to make use of them, and you have opportunity to stop them in more ways than one.

Its been said many times by many tournament organizers that some items (not all) would be turned on in most tournaments, since they are a part of what makes Smash what it is, if only they could turn off the exploding capsules that can lead to instant death with NO chance to avoid it. This is NOT the same problem with Smash Orbs, and thus if they can be turned on without these exploding capsules automatically coming with them, I believe most tournaments will want to include them. They are a core mechanic of Brawl and affect the balance of characters with each other. I'm sure some characters have great FS's but are weak in other categories and vice versa, and this needs to be taken into account. It would simply not be fair to have FS's turned off if it left certain characters much weaker without them when they would be more fairly balanced with each other with them turned on.

No one bans Super attacks in Street Fighter 3 tournaments you know, even though they are often sick powerful and also often harder to avoid than many of the FS's we've seen in Brawl.

 

[Paingel]

This discussion has gone on for much longer than it deserves to.

 

[Crispy4001]

So is Samus's charged shot, which can KO someone from the other side of the stage, unbalanced and should be banned from tournaments? How about Luigi's side+B, which can RANDOMLY do a ton of damage and KO people at fairly low percents? Should Luigi be banned from tournaments? What about Peach's death turnip, randomly pulled out, which you have to have a very good eye in the midst of an intense battle to even realize its a death turnip, and is very likely to KO you. Should Peach be banned from tournaments?

All of these can be avoided. Most have far less warning than a Smash Orb. The difference between them and exploding capsules is that the capsules can spawn, right above your head, fall on you, explode, and kill you, before you even knew they were there, and have no way to counter them, and have nothing to do with your opponent. Smash Orbs are not like that. They are obvious. There is a decent amount of time to do something about them. They won't lead to sudden random deaths. The opponent must do something to make use of them, and you have opportunity to stop them in more ways than one.

Its been said many times by many tournament organizers that some items (not all) would be turned on in most tournaments, since they are a part of what makes Smash what it is, if only they could turn off the exploding capsules that can lead to instant death with NO chance to avoid it. This is NOT the same problem with Smash Orbs, and thus if they can be turned on without these exploding capsules automatically coming with them, I believe most tournaments will want to include them. They are a core mechanic of Brawl and affect the balance of characters with each other. I'm sure some characters have great FS's but are weak in other categories and vice versa, and this needs to be taken into account. It would simply not be fair to have FS's turned off if it left certain characters much weaker without them when they would be more fairly balanced with each other with them turned on.

No one bans Super attacks in Street Fighter 3 tournaments you know, even though they are often sick powerful and also often harder to avoid than many of the FS's we've seen in Brawl.

Difference is that you never know when you can pull up a death turnup; you don't know when you can pull a Luigi super-rocket. In Luigi's case, betting on it being what you want it to be will only get you into trouble. Peach's death turn-up is a chance, but that's been forgiven due to the rarity of it and that the item can be caught and used against her.

Compare those to Samus's Final Smash (not the weaker charge shot, which is perfectly fine). You know exactly when you can use it which allows you to pull it off most opportunely. It fills half the screen. It KO's at 58%. See the difference?


Knowing your opponent has a Final Smash also preps you for it, you're right. But again, there's the invulnerability factor. The range factor. I'm not talking about randomness - I'm talking about these moves being too cheap, period, and the fact that only one person gets it at a time. It doesn't create a level playing field. It creates imbalances.

That's the first, and biggest issue of contention. The secondary problem is the random issue. Think of it contextually - other fighters might give you 3 super-powered attacks to use in a match. Or as reward/compensation for how you're playing. Brawl pops it's balls out artificially and grab-the-bacon style without player influence.

That might not be so much of a problem with weaker items. But when an item like a Smash Ball has such a dramatic influence on the match overall, it's a problem. They're in there to toss up the salid, not create a level a proving ground.

 

[Johnknight1]

smash balls: No
Certain items, like the bumper, pitfall, banana peel, beam sword, etc.: Maybe like the low tier character tournaments, or a option. Assuming there are no explosive crates and barrels, or if there are (or even if there aren't), turn crates and barrels off (as a option). That'd work kinda good, but items would half to be on very low. Definitely.

 

[Zauron]

Difference is that you never know when you can pull up a death turnup; you don't know when you can pull a Luigi super-rocket. In Luigi's case, betting on it being what you want it to be will only get you into trouble. Peach's death turn-up is a chance, but that's been forgiven due to the rarity of it and that the item can be caught.

Compare those to Samus's Final Smash (not the charge shot). You know when you can use it. It fills half the screen. It KO's at 58%. See the difference?


Knowing your opponent has a Final Smash preps you for it, you're right. But again, there's the invulnerability factor. The range factor. I'm not talking about randomness - I'm talking about these moves being too cheap, period, and the fact that only one person gets it at a time. It doesn't create a level playing field. It creates imbalances.

That's the first, and biggest issue of contention. The secondary problem is the random issue. Think of it contextually - other fighters might give you 3 super-powered attacks to use in a match. Or as reward/compensation for how you're playing. Brawl pops it's balls out artificially without player influence.

That might not be so much of a problem with weaker items. But when an item like a Smash Ball has such a dramatic influence on the match overall, it's a problem. They're in there to toss up the salid, not create a level a proving ground.

So a player using a Smash Orb on a level 3 CPU that did nothing about it makes you believe it is overpowered? Again, on that CPU, likely Samus's charged shot would have killed him too. Or a charged Marth side-smash. Or how about Jigglypuff's rest? Or Luigi's Up+B sweetspotted?

The CPU didn't block. Even a noob would at least block, its not like the game doesn't zoom in on Samus and go into slow motion to warn you the FS is coming - after the screen goes dark and Samus is glowing before she uses it. Plenty of warning to at least press R/L. He also didn't attempt to just jump on a platform to get out of the way (there was plenty of time and room to do it, again, even a noob could have avoided that attack easily). He didn't attempt to dodge it to reduce the number of frames he'd get hit by it. He likely didn't try to DI or tech to get out of it while being blasted. He didn't put any real effort into attacking Samus to knock it out of her before she could use it.

If your main complaint is that the FS's are too powerful, I don't think you have enough evidence of that yet. Yeah, that CPU died pretty good at 58%, but there's other moves in Melee right now, under tournament rules, that could do the same thing, and with less warning to help you avoid it. I think its a bit too soon to try to ban a core mechanic of the game based on so little actual evidence, particular considering its so far only been seen as played by complete noobs against very bad AI CPU's.

 

[Crispy4001]

So a player using a Smash Orb on a level 3 CPU that did nothing about it makes you believe it is overpowered? Again, on that CPU, likely Samus's charged shot would have killed him too. Or a charged Marth side-smash. Or how about Jigglypuff's rest? Or Luigi's Up+B sweetspotted?

The CPU didn't block. Even a noob would at least block, its not like the game doesn't zoom in on Samus and go into slow motion to warn you the FS is coming - after the screen goes dark and Samus is glowing before she uses it. Plenty of warning to at least press R/L. He also didn't attempt to just jump on a platform to get out of the way (there was plenty of time and room to do it, again, even a noob could have avoided that attack easily). He didn't attempt to dodge it to reduce the number of frames he'd get hit by it. He likely didn't try to DI or tech to get out of it while being blasted. He didn't put any real effort into attacking Samus to knock it out of her before she could use it.

If your main complaint is that the FS's are too powerful, I don't think you have enough evidence of that yet. Yeah, that CPU died pretty good at 58%, but there's other moves in Melee right now, under tournament rules, that could do the same thing, and with less warning to help you avoid it. I think its a bit too soon to try to ban a core mechanic of the game based on so little actual evidence, particular considering its so far only been seen as played by complete noobs against very bad AI CPU's.

Do you really think you can sheild a Final Smash attack? I'm betting you'll be hit if you even try. If not, your sheid's going to break anyways; Samus' lasts for 3 seconds. Rolling is also out of the question.

Also a better player would likely use it in conjunction with another move (tilt-A, then unleash it). That's sort of a risk due to the fact that it can knocked out of you, but like I said, it must take a quite a beating to have that happen due to the Albino DK sustaining so much damage.


The moves in Melee that could KO at 58% from stage's center all have risks associated. Jigglypuff falls asleep for a few seconds afterwards. Game & Watch's level 9 comes at random, and can't be counted on. Bowsers smashes all take lots of time. Ness's regular B does too. Luigi's Up-B requires positioning (not even sure if it would kill at that percnt) Fox's up-A Smash won't kill at a percent that low (although it's close). Neither would Marth's Forward Smash.

Other than that I'm drawing blanks. You tell me what would be riskier: destroying a floating item for a final Smash, or attempting a sleep with Jigglypuff?


Also, nothing substitues for the 4 or so seconds of invulnerability most final Smashes grant. And Samus' could be far from cheapest (I'm thinking that Kirby's health dropping cook-pot would be especially unfair in 1vs1's).

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

I hope what Mic said is true. Things should only be banned under intense scrutiny, and we don't know enough about what we're dealing with to make any kind of intelligent judgement. Is there invincibility? How much, and for who? Is it just a damage amount, or also a number of seperate hits that is needed to break a smash ball? How easy is it to have a smash ball beaten out of you?

I agree with basically everything Paingel has said (thanks for saving me the time, lol) and what others have said about adapting to disadvantageous situations. I have one more thing to add.

Once the smash ball is banned, how likely is it to get unbanned later? Slim to none. We should give it a serious chance before making any decision which will affect the mainstream tourney scene for years to come. Banning items in SSBM was a slow process, even if it seems like common sense today.

 

[Zauron]

I hope what Mic said is true. Things should only be banned under intense scrutiny, and we don't know enough about what we're dealing with to make any kind of intelligent judgement. Is there invincibility? How much, and for who? Is it just a damage amount, or also a number of seperate hits that is needed to break a smash ball? How easy is it to have a smash ball beaten out of you?

I agree with basically everything Paingel has said (thanks for saving me the time, lol) and what others have said about adapting to disadvantageous situations. I have one more thing to add.

Once the smash ball is banned, how likely is it to get unbanned later? Slim to none. We should give it a serious chance before making any decision which will affect the mainstream tourney scene for years to come. Banning items in SSBM was a slow process, even if it seems like common sense today.

Definitely. The mere fact that people here disagree on if it should be banned or not clearly means it should not be banned at first, until the community really has a chance to try it out and see. As you said, its not like items were banned from tourneys right away in SSBM. In fact, some tourneys still used items until only within the last year or so. Most tourneys started out only banning certain specific items, like heart containers, and it was only when the realization that having ANY item always meant you had those **** exploding capsules did people give in and decide to just ban the entire lot of them. If Brawl has the ability to turn off capsules and crates, its possible that not only will Smash Orbs end up allowed in tourneys, but we may go back to allowing other items as well.

 

[shadydentist]

I agree with superdoodleman.

Right now, I don't think the smash ball should be allowed in competitive play, but we should hold off judgement until the game is released.

 

[Someguy13]

As long as crates and stuff can be turned off then they should be in. I think Final Smashes will act as a sort of balance between the characters. Say theres a character that basicly sucks at normal fighting. That character gets a really good Final Smash to make up for the fact that he/she/it sucks.

 

[Master Peach]

Zauron Your realy good a t debating. You have good and powerful points that are agreeable. I support your points 100%. Most of those things I couldn't have said better myself.

But as SuperDoodleman has said we shouldn't judge yet on whether they should be in or not until they have been tested well enough to say that it should banned or not.

 

[KernelColonel]

It ALL depends on just HOW random it is. If it appears near the top of the screen then starts doing some crazy zigzag patterns, it should be allowed. If it just pops out wherever it feels like it and does a couple of lefts and rights, then it shouldn't.

 

[Flatfeet]

I'm up in the air about whether the Smash Ball should be banned, but I approve of giving it a chance before banning it before the game even comes out.

 

[Garath331]

Im waiting for someone to beat my "random spawn position" factor out of the way.

Let me try.

If it is a random spawn point, then it has an equal chance of spawning anywhere. Now assume that I my opponenet is off the stage and I near the edge, ready to block him. If a smash ball spawns, then it is most likely going to be closer to me than my enemy. Therefore, by being in control of the stage at that moment, I have earned the advantage.

Basically, you earn the smash balls by controlling the stage. If you are closer to the center of the map than your opponent, then you can more easily reach any point on the map at any given time.

 

[Lag]

I think it shouldn't be in competitive play, because for competitive play we want to take out as much "randomness" as much as possible and focus on the player's real skills.

If they do include it...maybe there should be a negative aspect to it besides it moving around. Like when you grab it, it blows up or something. And it should be some small change in detail (like a poison mushroom and a super mushroom - the faces remember?) if it were the "negative" Smash Ball.

 

[Revven]

What if Smash Balls are an integral part of the game? Like, you wouldn't be able to turn them off. I feel though that Smash Balls should be allowed in competitive play. Honestly, if it can be turned off then turn it on and set the frequency to "Very Low" or "Low" simply because then they would come once in a blue moon and would add more flair and beauty to the fight.

In short, it's not as "random" as people are making it out to be. We've only seen it appear in the air above the stage before, it doesn't appear to spawn anywhere else, plus it moves around. IMO, that's anyone's fair game to get the ball. If they don't get it, it's on them. Just like if they mess up in a match without items on it's on them. The fact of the matter is, that, the tournaments would ban certain FS's if they were allowed (IE: MetaKnight's or Sonic's) simply because they're overpowered.

Which, kind of defeats the purpose of allowing them in tournaments. But, the tournaments did ban Wobbling which was a "move" of the ICs but, it didn't stop them from being good anymore.

In short, FS's could be allowed, provided some were banned.

 

[Aminar]

I say have em in. From what I've seen and read they seem as easy to dodge as most smash attacks, and very difficult to combo into, unlike most smash attacks. Samus 's will be deadly on FinalD(if it's in), but any stage with platforms will give ample time to dodge. Sonics looks easy to repeatedly spot dodge. Peach is AOE and has plenty of time to run off the visible area. And if she misses you can heal sooner than she can. Link's is looking hard to hit with. The Flying ones are a deathtrap, and/or fairly random. Pit's sucks.
In addition, maybe you do go for the smash ball. Those attacks leave you vulnerable. Your opponent will probably get the ball because they will smack you away and then break the ball. However by this time your probably set up to run away. And after that you can probably dodge the FiSmash any time they unleash it, unless they really know what they are doing.

It does give one player an advantage, but gaining that advantage is going to be much harder than you think. It will punish one side of a campfest though, making camping less effective. And less camping is more fun.

 

[GhostAnime]

it's still random in the direction it goes. have two people stand on the opposite side of the stage and it's going to float to one of them first. I don't find that fair game.

 

[nuro]

The answer is...

Spoiler

no

Only people who have been to tournaments before should post here. If you haven't been to a tournament it's likely you don't know what your talking about.

 

[Samochan]

Pika's final smash does 600% when you touch it. >_> Thread closed.

 

[Superstarmario]

The thing I don't get is how are final smashes that much different from Starmen? Or anything else banned from Smash? Everyone counters anti final smash arguements with "well u culd jus not let dem get it". What the hell kind of argement is that? Why not we let the Ice Climbers go buck wild on use with grab infinites, and freeze glitches? We could ALWAYS just not let them grab us. Not just let Fox players choose any stages they want and drill shine use 1-999 and kill before time runs out? We could ALWAYS avoid them right? Why not? Cause it's not ****ing fair.

"it takes skill to grab them!!1" No. I watched if float basically in Pit's freaking face in a vid. How is being in the right place at the right time skill? How do you adapt to a situation that you have no control over? I'd hate to use the scenario cliche again but, what if you just two stocked someone? Game is almost yours, and the player is obviously inferior. Then bam Peach's special comes and eats a stock. Then in all possiblity it comes AGAIN far out of your range, directly in your opponents. Another stock. There was no adaptation. There was nothing to adapt to. If the world exploded, we can't just adapt to it and survive. We can just die.

If this becomes used in tourneys, I want to be able to unplug people's controllers / remove batteries from remotes.

They could ALWAYS just punch me in the face and stop me, right?

(I know I took this to the extreme XD)

 

[LemonManX]

I agree with those who say "NO!" because I don't believe they should be tournament legal. Regardless of how it moves around, you're still screwed if your opponent happens to get lucky enough to pick one up before you stand a chance to get near him.

Items of all sort are off for a reason.

 

[darkNES386]

My understanding is that you can't collect the item if you are not fighting well... it requires you to be doing good in the match in order to grab it... watch the video closesly

 

[Darkurai]

What if Smash Balls are an integral part of the game? Like, you wouldn't be able to turn them off. I feel though that Smash Balls should be allowed in competitive play. Honestly, if it can be turned off then turn it on and set the frequency to "Very Low" or "Low" simply because then they would come once in a blue moon and would add more flair and beauty to the fight.

In short, it's not as "random" as people are making it out to be. We've only seen it appear in the air above the stage before, it doesn't appear to spawn anywhere else, plus it moves around. IMO, that's anyone's fair game to get the ball. If they don't get it, it's on them. Just like if they mess up in a match without items on it's on them. The fact of the matter is, that, the tournaments would ban certain FS's if they were allowed (IE: MetaKnight's or Sonic's) simply because they're overpowered.

Which, kind of defeats the purpose of allowing them in tournaments. But, the tournaments did ban Wobbling which was a "move" of the ICs but, it didn't stop them from being good anymore.

In short, FS's could be allowed, provided some were banned.

If you ban one, you have to ban them all.

 

[Superstarmario]

My understanding is that you can't collect the item if you are not fighting well... it requires you to be doing good in the match in order to grab it... watch the video closesly

I doubt that.

I could have Ken kicking the crap out of me, but if I respawn and a starman just happens to be there, it's mine.

That's what makes it random.

 

[Zauron]

The answer is...

Spoiler

no

Only people who have been to tournaments before should post here. If you haven't been to a tournament it's likely you don't know what your talking about.

I've been to several large and small tournaments, and placed in the top 10 multiple times (my best is 4th). And I still say FS's should be allowed, at least at first. As I stated before, anyone familiar with the history of the tournament scene will note that items were allowed in most tournaments for quite a while. Many tournament organizers agreed that some items would still be allowed to this day if it weren't for the fact that turning on ANY item makes the unfair exploding capsules appear as well.

Smash Orbs is the fairest item I've seen. It floats away when you hit it. It is on-screen for a while before anyone can hit it, so everyone has some opportunity to decide to go for it or not (it doesn't just appear right above your head like other items). Even if you were in a position of power (and good for you if you are, you deserve some benefit) when one appears on the stage, you'd have to give up on your edge-guarding to go get it, leaving the edge freely available for you opponent to recover. Or, you could continue to edge-guard but risk them getting past you and now you missed your chance for the smash orb. It takes a while to get, so once you decide to go for it your opponent has opportunity to get close to you and try to get it themselves or ignore it and smash you while your attention is diverted. It has a balancing factor of speed vs power characters being able to get it (since speed characters get to it faster but power characters can break it open in less hits). You are vulnerable to getting killed by your opponent while your attacks are focused on the smash orb. Even once gained, you are vulnerable before using it and risk having it stolen, but if you use it too soon you could miss entirely and waste your advantage. For many characters, you are vulnerable when using it as you are locked in place for quite a while. For other characters, it provides a balancing factor as intended by the balancing the devs are doing to help an otherwise weak character by having a particularly effective Final Smash.

The argument that it is like a starman is lame. Starmen DO appear right next to you, and they only have to be touched to be used, at which point you are invincible. Smash Orbs have to be attacked, they float away from you when hit, they leave you vulnerable while trying to get them, and they don't make you invincible (at least not until you have a chance to use them, and that only applies to some of them). In any skilled matchup, they aren't necessarily a free stock either. Its obvious to those of any skill level watching the videos that most of them can be avoided fairly easy, you have TONS of warning before they go off. And, of course, Starmen do the same thing to every character. They do not affect character-to-character balance, they just randomly affect the match. FS's are different for each character. They are part of how characters are balanced with each other. If everyone had the same result when a FS was used like a Starman does, I'd be much more likely to say go ahead and ban it, but since they are different per character and part of the uniqueness and power of each character, its not the same thing at all!

To me, banning FS's changes the balance of the game, and would be about the same as banning Fox's reflector, or Samus's charged shot, or Jigglypuff's rest, or Marth's side smash, or Peach's down smash, or banning Shiek altogether (as would happen with ZSS). Yeah, those moves are powerful and I honestly wish we could ban some of them. But how do you think players of those characters would feel about those moves being banned? By the same token, if a player has a character that is otherwise fairly mediocre but has a fairly effective Final Smash, and they have developed mind games and tactics involving their Final Smash in their training, how will they feel if their character is bumped from mid/high tier to low tier by banning them from using one of the core moves of their character?

We're not talking about some glitchy advanced technique like wobbling or Ness's jackets or something here. We are talking about a core move that any player can use being completely taken away from their character. Might as well just ban Smash attacks or spot dodging or all reflection B moves! Its clear that from the devs point of view, Final Smashes are now as much a core part of the gameplay as these other basic moves. They are MUCH more integral to the character balance in Brawl than the other things we've banned from tournaments, and MUST be considered much more carefully, based on actual gameplay, rather than the quick and rash opinions I've seen from many posters in this thread.

I believe tournaments should allow FS's at first, and see how it goes. If some find them distasteful after giving it a shot for a while, I believe the tournament scene will split into two types of tournaments - one with and one without FS's. Perhaps even have single tournaments with 2 brackets, one with and one without. I imagine the tier list will be different between the 2 styles due to the reasons I mentioned above, so we'll likely need 2 tier lists if those opposed to FS's still feel the same way after trying them out in a few tournaments.

Of course there's the possibility that everyone will agree after giving it a chance that FS's should not be in tournaments, but from what I've seen so far, and keeping in mind the skill level of the players in the videos, the many mindgames and meta game components FS's offer, and the vulnerabilities inherent in their use, I doubt the tournament scene will be completely rid of FS's for several years at the least, if ever. The community will express disatisfaction with tournament organizers enforcing a rule that half of the player disagree with, and you'll find the tournament organizers are quick to change their rules when they get that many complaints.

 

[yoshi_fan]

um.. shinespiking is part of Fox's character. therefore, it can't be comparable to smash balls. Fox shinespiking you is part of the Fox player's skill, afterall.

Samus FSing Fox is part of Samus' player skill, after all

 

[Crispy4001]

The thing I don't get is how are final smashes that much different from Starmen?

They're TOTALLLY different. Instead of just straight up invincibility, you have character specific invincibility plus added POW. Because it takes a different kind of skill to hit opponents while you're invincible in a Final Smash, that makes the invincibility A-OK.

Stop thinking of Final Smashes functioning as incredibly cheap items, and instead look at them as a natural extension of your moveset (you get from hitting a floating ball). You wouldn't want characters moves to be banned now, would you? Even if they artificially tip the scale in one players favor when they're given opportunity to use one, they should still be legit in tournaments because that's the way Sakurai designed the game.



/SARCASM

 

[red stone]

it's too random. unless it appears in the same spot at the same time every time then it shouldn't be considered for tourney play. but seriously, how hard can it be to sidestep sonic's final

 

[yoshi_fan]

it's too random. unless it appears in the same spot at the same time every time then it shouldn't be considered for tourney play. but seriously, how hard can it be to sidestep sonic's final

As easy as eating an hamburguer.

But i will jump it, instead of sidestepping

 

[Crossfiyah]

Why is their so much hatred for luck in this? Honestly. You don't see professional competitive Pokemon players trying to get critical hits removed.

 

[konoha107]

Why is their so much hatred for luck in this? Honestly. You don't see professional competitive Pokemon players trying to get critical hits removed.

There are professional Pokemon players? Holy ****!

 

[Crispy4001]

 

[Crossfiyah]

There are professional Pokemon players? Holy ****!

...are you kidding?

www.smogon.com

 

[Crispy4001]

So, how much is it actually going to take to drop a Smash Ball?

 

[Samochan]

Why is their so much hatred for luck in this? Honestly. You don't see professional competitive Pokemon players trying to get critical hits removed.

Cause they can't do anythign about it and luck is generaly frowned upon competitive pokemon cause it adds no skill to the game, thus OHKO attacks and all that other junk are banned. It doesn't make me more skillfull to hit with 3 ohko attacks in a row since I got uber lucky. Whereas we most likely have the choice to ban smash balls cause they're items and items can be turned off.