Why the Melee/Brawl Debate is Meaningless

[flyinfilipino]

Ok but there is only one thing... sakurai DID make it with the intention with taking out alot of the competitive aspects of melee. Unlike most artists, we know SAKURAI's INTENTION lol. IT WAS HIS INTENTION to take this direction with brawl. Yes it can still be competitive... but not until it makes it past all the barriers sakurai has placed before it. Do you go to tournies? Do you see how people play? cmon man....

However, people are trying to interpret Emotional Response B out of it.

 

[The_Dark_Zero]

Why do people fight over a ****ing game? Its pure bull****. I am ASHAMED to be here due to 89% of this place being full of idiots, the only ones I can trust are SMYN and the mods, and pro players. That don't judge you >.>

 

[cjrocker]

Why do people fight over a ****ing game? Its pure bull****. I am ASHAMED to be here due to 89% of this place being full of idiots, the only ones I can trust are SMYN and the mods, and pro players. That don't judge you >.>

You owe me $78.

 

[Reaver197]

Art (and entertainment) is all about interpretation, and that's what people who don't take heavy Humanities courses usually don't know. A painting may not be able to be changed, but artist's intent is still an issue because a painter may try to evoke Emotional Reaction A out of me when I view it, while my experiences and thought processes may cause me to evoke Emotional Response B.

Sakurai (or any other designer of any other game) has provided us with his piece, a piece we cannot change (without Ocarina ), and we interpret that piece in many different ways. Some interpret it as he intended it to be (meaning the response he planned for was evoked), as a party game. Some people see different things, look for different things, and interpret it as a serious fighter. User interpretation of the source material is inherent to all forms of art/entertainment, including paintings, music, movies, books, and yes, even games.

I would argue that games is different than music, paintings, movies, and books in that, in games, there is a system of rewarding you for certain actions/behaviours, and punishing you for other actions/behaviours. None of those other art forms mentioned does that. Also, as I said before, at the risk of sounding like a terribly broken record, such a system is completely objective and empirical. There is nothing interpretive or subjective about whether an action is rewarded or punished, especially in such a competitive and immediate environment as a fighter.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I would argue that games is different than music, paintings, movies, and books in that, in games, there is a system of rewarding you for certain actions/behaviours, and punishing you for other actions/behaviours. None of those other art forms mentioned does that. Also, as I said before, at the risk of sounding like a terribly broken record, such a system is completely objective and empirical. There is nothing interpretive or subjective about whether an action is rewarded or punished, especially in such a competitive and immediate environment as a fighter.

You're getting a little technical; games can be fun to watch or analyze too (and what I guess Jack means by Smash as a game is the actual fighting itself) (though I could be totally wrong too).

 

[Reaver197]

You're getting a little technical; games can be fun to watch or analyze too (and what I guess Jack means by Smash as a game is the actual fighting itself) (though I could be totally wrong too).

I love being technical. I guess that's why I play Melee, lol.

Anyway, we aren't talking about whether a game is fun to watch (or fun to...analyze? ).

 

[mkmelee]

Arguing with each other definitely won't be very productive.

Now petitions... yes... there's an idea.

 

[AlphaZealot]

To clear some things up:

The facts
-MLG picked up Melee in the summer of 2004.
-MLG dropped Melee after 2006, but sponsored 4 events (all but one with 200+ attendance) in 2007
-EVO picked up Melee in 2007
-EVO sucks

MLG did not drop Melee/pick up Brawl for ANY of the following reasons:
-Inferior games
-Bad community
-Their kiddy looks
-Any of the other common misconceptions
The actual reason was never disclosed but is more sponsor/business related. Nothing is/was wrong with Smash.

Brawl tournaments are being powered by the over 50,000 members that have joined this site since September 2007. Those players came for Brawl. Telling them to play Melee or that Melee is a better game is meaningless to the majority of them. Then, put on top of that total a large number of Melee players moving onto Brawl and enjoying the game (Forward, myself, Edrees, tons of people who don't post/don't care) and you have a recipe for Brawl thriving while Melee dimishishes. The Brawl community is building itself and is also recieving the helping hand of some Melee vets who have moved on.

You are right though, all that needs to happen are all those Melee players that hate Brawl should stop going to Brawl tournaments. They don't follow their own morals/beliefs but apparently aren't afraid to tell others what to do.

Money was a reason back during the Melee days, its nothing new (biggest growth outside of Brawl was related to MLG, MLG = money).

Did anyone honestly think a console game was going to make it 10 years before people moved on?

 

[talking_chicken]

Did anyone honestly think a console game was going to make it 10 years before people moved on?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo

Yeah, it's probably an exception, but still true nonetheless. Sure a bunch of people move on, but there will still be people that cling to the original games here and there. Some people are just purists. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is that people like to enforce their views on other people a lot. They like the feeling that they're right and everyone else is wrong and if others don't agree with their views then the world is in chaos. For example:

(note, these are just examples, I don't agree with all these views)

Items aren't competitive, let's ban them.
Wavedashing is cheap, stop doing it.
Playing smash as a tournament fighter isn't what the developer intended.

Honestly, how are these statements that different from:

Brawl sucks, play Melee.
Melee is old, play Brawl.

We tell other people to play the game how they want and we can play the game our way and everyone will be happy, but why can't we do that in our own community? It's so hypocritical sometimes.

Other people have opinions too (and ideally, they should be able to defend their opinions with arguments that have some kind of base). Respect them, unless they're clearly wrong (and by wrong, I don't mean their opinion is different from yours, I mean their facts are messed up).

Sorry if some of this is repeated, I read the OP a while ago but haven't really kept up with it since then.

 

[L__]

Huh...


Even if people are entitled to their own opinion, it seems no one wants to allow diversity as of recent. More and more people are attempting to convince that we need to focus on one game.

Some lame reasons at an attempt to convince is..

For Melee:
It's fast (Not everyone likes fast paced games)
It's technical (Not everyone has the fingers for it)
Progressed metagame (People enjoy discovering new, even if Melee has tons of undiscovered stuff.)

Conversation with M2K before Brawl was out.

OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:32 PM): SSBB has many less guarateed things than melee
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:37 PM): a bad person can beat a pro or stand a good chance vs them
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:40 PM): that makes me mad
da1 chipmnk (9:18:46 PM): wow
da1 chipmnk (9:18:49 PM): that's lame
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:51 PM): theres no advanced stuff
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:54 PM): to guarantee winning
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:56 PM): just from being
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:18:59 PM): much better
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:19:06 PM): its like
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:19:11 PM): mario party advanced
da1 chipmnk (9:23:36 PM): xD
da1 chipmnk (9:23:58 PM): well
da1 chipmnk (9:24:05 PM): if anyone's going to find adv. techs
da1 chipmnk (9:24:10 PM): it's probably going to be you
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:13 PM): i tried
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:14 PM): for hours
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:15 PM): i cant
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:26 PM): its
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:27 PM): super depressing
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:29 PM): i have SO Much
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:30 PM): great ****
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:34 PM): i havent begun to explore in ssbm
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:36 PM): or begun to show ppl
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:38 PM): and ic ant do it
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:25:41 PM): so much good stuff
da1 chipmnk (9:25:57 PM): ...
da1 chipmnk (9:26:00 PM): aw
da1 chipmnk (9:26:03 PM): well
da1 chipmnk (9:26:11 PM): do you think ssbb is going to go competitive?
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:10 PM): it will for 2 reasons
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:13 PM): fanbase is the main one
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:15 PM): 2nd its new
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:22 PM): do i want it to?
da1 chipmnk (9:27:22 PM): ...
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:22 PM): no
da1 chipmnk (9:27:25 PM): lame
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:34 PM): yes
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:38 PM): im affected the most cuz
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:39 PM): i always like
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:42 PM): find out new stuff
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:43 PM): even if i cant use it
da1 chipmnk (9:27:44 PM): ..........
da1 chipmnk (9:27:45 PM): xD
OOVideoGameGodOO (9:27:47 PM): but its all wasted now
da1 chipmnk (9:27:58 PM): ._."

For Brawl:

It's new (Self explanatory)
Slower (Chill, people sometimes like slower paced games)
New style of play (...*looks 2 lines up*)
New characters (Yeah...)
More content (>_>)
Aesthetics (-_-)

Things wrong with those statements...

No one's to say what's justified.
You can't prove an opinion wrong,
therefore, you can't state that any game is better than another.

 

[Corigames]

Opinions can't be wrong, but they can be bad >_>

 

[L__]

It's a shame that sentence is true.

 

[talking_chicken]

Opinions can't be wrong, but they can be bad >_>

Very true. If you have an opinion, try to make sure you have some sort of a reasoning behind it. In English class, you don't get marks for putting the right answer down on a sheet of paper. No points are awarded for writing down something that the marker agrees with. The part that does matter is how well you are able to defend what you say. Sometimes it's just a matter of "I like this aspect of it more than that one", sometimes you actually use concrete facts, the point is that you try to defend your opinions somehow. Kinda like I just did in this paragraph.

The "bad" opinions are the ones that are based on facts that aren't true. Those are the kinds of things that you can tell people they're wrong on. But sometimes it is just a matter of "I'd rather have X than Y", and those are the kinds of opinions that people have to respect a little more. You don't have to agree with it, just respect it. I have more respect for someone that disagrees with me and can explain why he/she does than someone that agrees with me without a good reason.

 

[MarKO X]

... stop with that argument... its ********.

lol... misinterpretation... I was actually making fun of that apples and oranges thing. You can compare the two... their both fruits, are they not?

 

[Reaver197]

To clear some things up:

The facts
-MLG picked up Melee in the summer of 2004.
-MLG dropped Melee after 2006, but sponsored 4 events (all but one with 200+ attendance) in 2007
-EVO picked up Melee in 2007
-EVO sucks

MLG did not drop Melee/pick up Brawl for ANY of the following reasons:
-Inferior games
-Bad community
-Their kiddy looks
-Any of the other common misconceptions
The actual reason was never disclosed but is more sponsor/business related. Nothing is/was wrong with Smash.

Brawl tournaments are being powered by the over 50,000 members that have joined this site since September 2007. Those players came for Brawl. Telling them to play Melee or that Melee is a better game is meaningless to the majority of them. Then, put on top of that total a large number of Melee players moving onto Brawl and enjoying the game (Forward, myself, Edrees, tons of people who don't post/don't care) and you have a recipe for Brawl thriving while Melee dimishishes. The Brawl community is building itself and is also recieving the helping hand of some Melee vets who have moved on.

You are right though, all that needs to happen are all those Melee players that hate Brawl should stop going to Brawl tournaments. They don't follow their own morals/beliefs but apparently aren't afraid to tell others what to do.

Money was a reason back during the Melee days, its nothing new (biggest growth outside of Brawl was related to MLG, MLG = money).

Did anyone honestly think a console game was going to make it 10 years before people moved on?

Er....you didn't happen to mean to post this in the other Kieser thread, did you?

 

[KosukeKGA]

He says in the other thread WHY he posted it there as well.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

lol... misinterpretation... I was actually making fun of that apples and oranges thing. You can compare the two... their both fruits, are they not?

Was that question even necessary... i dont think it was. Using it as an easy way out of the debate between the two games is quite foolish .. but since you were making fun of it.. ggs.

 

[ElvenKing]

Huh...

Things wrong with those statements...

No one's to say what's justified.
You can't prove an opinion wrong,
therefore, you can't state that any game is better than another.

That is true; however you can state that a game is better than another game for a certain type of player, or in the case of similar games, a certain way of playing those games.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I do actualyl get tired of people trying to logic their way out of debating the technicalities of both games. Or using the "opinion isnt fact" argument... while once again trying to logic their way out of a straight up comparison of the 2 games. If you don't want to debate the nitty gritty details of the differences between brawl and melee and why one is more competitively viable... or if you don't have extensive knowledge on the subject... please don't put in your 2 cents.

 

[ElvenKing]

I do actualyl get tired of people trying to logic their way out of debating the technicalities of both games. Or using the "opinion isnt fact" argument... while once again trying to logic their way out of a straight up comparison of the 2 games. If you don't want to debate the nitty gritty details of the differences between brawl and melee and why one is more competitively viable... or if you don't have extensive knowledge on the subject... please don't put in your 2 cents.

The point of that post was to refute the claim made by L__ that games can't be said to be better than one another. They can be given a context, to say that Brawl is a better competitive game than Melee is utter rubbish. Thus in the context of competitive games Melee is better. However if you take graphics, Brawl is better.

I wouldn't mind debating the differences between Brawl and Melee and why one is more competitively viable, though I don't think there would be much debate between us; as I completely agree that Melee is better competitively and has far better gameplay, and thus in my opinion is a far better game.

I have quite a bit of knowledge about the subject as I have played Melee and looked at these forums since 06; though I was a really scrub until 07.

 

[L__]

Fine,

I'll state what I know then.

Melee is a very frame intensive game that requires an intense amount of fingerwork; which is great for several people who enjoy the intensity of a good fight. Even though Melee is several years old, we are still discovering things today; as M2K had stated in our conversation. Melee is a better game for THOSE WHO ARE EXPERIENCED and enjoy a DEVELOPED metagame. To be honest, I'm all for Melee as a competitive game due to the fact that I've picked it up a few months ago. DUE TO THAT FACT <<< I came in when Brawl was about to come out, which disappointed me HEAVILY because it was so **** slow. I couldn't see this as competitive AT ALL because of how ridiculous the system was. Although this game is extremely frame intensive, you do not have to be technical in order to beat others. The majority of Pro-Brawlers are constantly saying that Melee is too old, or too bad and even "not mindgamy" enough. It is obvious that Brawl requires a more defensive style, I prefer the faster paced style that is Melee. The metagame is still growing day after day as the common smasher is observing professionals, and this is a good thing. Although, it is a shame that people make lame arguments over what is better. I don't see a good reason why people think that Melee is worse, (usually because of something STUPID like graphics and it's too technical) people around the world need to grow up.

I'll edit this later; I have to go to work now.

 

[Corigames]

It's obvious; if you came here for Brawl, you are going to play Brawl.

However, if you came here to play competitive smash because of Brawl, you should at least consider Melee.

Also, if you played Melee competitively... how an you live with yourself when playing Brawl? I can't even try anymore.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

Also, if you played Melee competitively... how an you live with yourself when playing Brawl? I can't even try anymore.

Ummm.... I like Brawl? Just because I used to play Melee competitively doesn't mean I can't enjoy Brawl.

 

[Iron Thorn]

Ummm.... I like Brawl? Just because I used to play Melee competitively doesn't mean I can't enjoy Brawl.

Wow.

You have no idea how refreshing it was to hear that. I was worried that it was my destiny as a non-idiot to eventually detest Brawl and go back to Melee. Thank you for relieving my fears.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

It's obvious; if you came here for Brawl, you are going to play Brawl.

However, if you came here to play competitive smash because of Brawl, you should at least consider Melee.

Also, if you played Melee competitively... how an you live with yourself when playing Brawl? I can't even try anymore.

because of just blowing off brawl,some want to try to make brawl competitive,brawl still hasnt been out long enough to find antthing epic,lets give it at least 6 more months...

 

[KosukeKGA]

Anything worth noting for Brawl's metagame so far were a bunch of real glitches or things that made it even more broken/unbalanced.

There's nothing really left to find. >_>

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Anything worth noting for Brawl's metagame so far were a bunch of real glitches or things that made it even more broken/unbalanced.

There's nothing really left to find. >_>

mabey...i mean like we didint find every single AT we have for melee in just 6 months,i have little hope for brawl,but ill be paitient with it

 

[KosukeKGA]

Not a "mabey". It's true.

With Melee in mind, we knew what we had to look for. AND we have 10x (probably more) the amount of players who spent time looking for little nuances in the game's physics. Nothing that would make the game more viable then Melee was found.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

Anything worth noting for Brawl's metagame so far were a bunch of real glitches or things that made it even more broken/unbalanced.

There's nothing really left to find. >_>

Your argument doesn't even come close to making sense. "Well, nothing after six months, there must be nothing there." Not a single one of Melee's ATs was found in six months. Not a single one.

Wow.

You have no idea how refreshing it was to hear that. I was worried that it was my destiny as a non-idiot to eventually detest Brawl and go back to Melee. Thank you for relieving my fears.

That sentence was off the charts.

 

[MarKO X]

How about... we just play Brawl... looking for ATs hardly does anything.

Have you ever lost something, tried looking for it, and couldn't find it because you were looking for it? Then, like an hour or so later, you found what you were looking for? It's weird, right?

So, let's pretend we lost the ATs. (then again, we kinda did.) Don't look for ATs. Just play to have fun, play to get better. (then the whole lack of skill gap argument comes up.) Okay, fine. Further perfect your technique, or lack thereof. [<--- not a diss to anyone, just a general statement, you've been here in SWF so u already know]. Then maybe, an AT or two will show up. If not...

Spoiler

then just play Snake and MK. lol

 

[KosukeKGA]

Your argument doesn't even come close to making sense. "Well, nothing after six months, there must be nothing there." Not a single one of Melee's ATs was found in six months. Not a single one.

LAWL

Nearly all of Melee's ATs were found in the first few months.

They just weren't applied frequently until like a year or two later.

 

[EvolveOrDie]

Yay the more fail, I love when stuff like this happens my only stipulation is that I agree with Jack but unfortunately this one was doomed because you didn't give a topic to discuss so it naturally went of topic I suggest editing the OP or locking this thread immediately.

 

[peeup]

melee/brawl debates fail. Just play what you like better, and don't be annoying and retarted by trying to convince somebody that one game is better. I like brawl better, but I don't try to prove that it deserves it. Other people like melee better, but I don't try to show them that their wrong. Respect people's decisions, shut up, and enjoy the game--that's what it was made for, brawl and melee.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

LAWL

Nearly all of Melee's ATs were found in the first few months.

They just weren't applied frequently until like a year or two later.

Misinformed.

The first known report of wavedashing was 2005.
The ATs that edged their way into the competitive community were discovered years into Melee. We didn't learn them after a few months away.

 

[Corigames]

melee/brawl debates fail. Just play what you like better, and don't be annoying and retarted by trying to convince somebody that one game is better. I like brawl better, but I don't try to prove that it deserves it. Other people like melee better, but I don't try to show them that their wrong. Respect people's decisions, shut up, and enjoy the game--that's what it was made for, brawl and melee.

I enjoy it when one of my favorite game series isn't turned to completely **** with the head designer intentionally spitting in my face and ruining the rest of the community simultaneously.

 

[KosukeKGA]

Misinformed.

The first known report of wavedashing was 2005.
The ATs that edged their way into the competitive community were discovered years into Melee. We didn't learn them after a few months away.

<_<

There's a Dec 2001 thread on Wavedashing. Look it up.

 

[peeup]

I enjoy it when one of my favorite game series isn't turned to completely **** with the head designer intentionally spitting in my face and ruining the rest of the community simultaneously.

Coreygames, I don't think I've read a single post of yours that doesn't make you look like a total douche bag... IF YOU DON'T LIKE BRAWL, PLAY MELEE AND STOP BUGGING EVERYBODY! EVERYBODY IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN OPINION!

 

[Skler]

Even if WDing wasn't discovered in the first six months, Brawl had over 10x more people searching for the ATs. Brawl's first six months might as well be Melee's first few years if you think about time spent trying to learn techniques.

 

[otg]

Even if WDing wasn't discovered in the first six months, Brawl had over 10x more people searching for the ATs. Brawl's first six months might as well be Melee's first few years if you think about time spent trying to learn techniques.

TRUTH. Seriously, the competitive smash scene barely/didn't exist when Melee first came out, and now we have an establish scene with a great tool in SWF. There are so many people looking for gamebreaking advanced techs on a daily basis since January, and I guarantee if there was something it would've been found by now.

Sakurai made it so that Brawl wouldn't be broken, just the gameplay itself.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I enjoy it when one of my favorite game series isn't turned to completely **** with the head designer intentionally spitting in my face and ruining the rest of the community simultaneously.

That is what it felt like when i started playing brawl. I felt like someone forced me to use training wheels again... for the rest of my life.