Why Mario > doc

[j3ly]

This just came up in my boards, i thought i would post it here and sombody else said the same so here i go.

Ima include a couple posts - the original to set some background, my following post, a reply to that post and then my final post. The reason for this is that i think the other posts add to what i am trying to get goin here, an actual discussion with maturity and no gdam flaming from 14 year olds who like to take apart your post and point out spelling errors. MY SPELLING AND GRAMMER EFFING SUCK ONLINE, GET OVER IT AND DEBATE WITH ME

First post:
Im thinking about picking up a bro. I like both mario and doc im not sure which way to go tho. Could someone give me a rundown?


My post:
I will highlight my own opinion in purple, everything else i tried and tested myself. Dont get too hung up on the highlighting please, its just to avoid flaming from minors.



The uks best doc said himself, doc isnt about combing, he is about dsmash and bair leading to/facilitating edgeguarding
He never said that last bit, but that was his strat. Lol when he reads this. Hey ben. Also he didnt bair enough, but thats what should have been happening so ill say it anyway
It is universally agreed by London, being there 1 doc main and 1 Mario main that Mario is a whole lot sexier. Seriously, a good Mario is so sexy

Mario has better recovery options. His cape lift (docs cape only stalls) not only gives him a whole lot of horizontal distance if used like marths sideB and following a downB, but allows him to go lower below the stage for a gimp without Sding.

It is of mine and several others opinions that doc has the worst recovery in the game. I mean its terrible, his upB gives a tiny bit more height than Marios, at the expense of loosing Marios RIDICULOUS sweetspot. The cape is awful for recovery, and in PAL Mario is lighter, allowing him to gain more horizontal distance per vertical distance fallen. He is also harder to combo in PAL. FIRST SENTANCE = PURPLE

Both characters facilitate bair for gimps off stage, but looking at it realistically (docs bair is better for gimping), if any character eats a bair from either Mario or doc, without a second jump to come back with, they are all but dead. My opinion, but my opinion is correct here.

Marios fsmash outranges everything doc has.
Marios nair is strong at the beginning, and docs nair gets stronger as it goes. Marios nair is a Ko move, and links from uair pretty much all the time. Provides a quick, abusable combo to get characters on all kinds of percents off the stage, ready to eat a bair on their 2nd jump. Or just to Ko at early %'s with shoddy DI.

Mariohas by far the superior platform game, with a weak bair that keeps opponents in the same spot, and the ability to get in 2 aerials in a FH under all the platforms. Docs bair packs too much knockback to be used on platforms, or in combing. This is debilitating seeing as Mario still retains 90% gimping power from the move. The floor hitbox on his dair, which combats down cancelling, also combos into nair/uair/usmash/dsmash/ftilt etc. His dair also autocancels on every low platform in the neutral stages from a FH, allowing for broken combos that doc cant do with his extra few frames of lag on every move.

Marios strong nair means you can bait grabs with uair, then jump out of uair (in the same SH) into nair, for a strong hit, leaving Mario safely autocancelled on the platform above.

Bair -> grab all dai on low %'s, doc does not have this luxury.

The ability to perfect waveland after a FH fireball means opponents get drawn into shield to avoid the ball, just to eat a full momentum nair in the face following the waveland, by which time they always unshield - thinking Mario cant make it that far, that fast.Tis leet.

Again with the recovery, Mario is very very difficult to edgeguard once you know all the options, and overall has one of the better, less gimpable recoveries. Doc gets gimped and cant recover, fact. opinion is fact here imo. (lol)

They can both CG equally good

Docs fair is undoubtedly better as a Ko move, but Marios fair punishes techs into his killer fsmash, which can be charged a fair amout before release. Death at 50% sometimes.

Marios utilt > knee in priority. Perhaps I should repeat - Utilt, > Knee. That is so awesome. Dairs floor hitbox also hits Falcon out of his sweetspot, just like shieks dsmash. That is also so awesome.
WD backwards -> fsmash beats every rushed aerial approach in the game. Super fast too, and conditions the hell outta your opponent in tourney. Every time they rush they eat a stupidly powerful attack? Kills morale.

Most importantly Mario is so, so fun, whereas docis clearly the most boring game in the character. Ask peoples opinions around the next tourney. Clearly my opinion. Maybe people were just agreeing with me when i brought the subject up, watever. Doc is dull as hell

Last but not least, and not all infact but im bored now, Nobody is impressed by a good doc , whereas peoples be inspired to pick up Mario after seeing yours in a few months. Also i can guarantee nobody will be able to find an equal amount of plusses that doc has over Mario, Mario just receives less representation because he is so much harder to use at a high level.

Do the right think, put in more time, and get a much better reward.

j3ly 4 pres


Somebodys post:
Docs better. >_>

My final post (please read it gets what i am trying to achieve across)
Where are your counter arguments.


I believe I have taken the core reasons that people pick doc over Mario (aside from the killing power, that comes down to unique player skill and knowledge to account for), and provided counter arguments for each. That is how a debate works, you know this.



You are in the MBR, no? How many members of the MBR mained either character when they made that tier list, do you know roughly?

They gave advise based on the highest level of play without knowing the necessary strategy's that are useful at this time, in this metagame, and couldent have - that requires immense thought, analysing, all that, and needs to be up to date. I am trying to change Mario, its effing hard but i am the guy for the job. There i tried to refute the idea of the tierlist when applyed to Mario.

Debate with me, try not to get nasty and immature. Debate with me, or dont push the subject without greater than average knowledge on it. I know i may be comming off kinda aggressive, i promise in real life this would be comming out in a chatty interested tone, not an attacking one - serious.


So hurry up and debate, instead of pushing other peoples opinions (ie tier list)!.
What i gather from your posts is that you do not main either character at high level, and are conforming to the tier list, giving no actual reasoning behind your judgement other than doc is higher, and maybe you know more good docs than Marios. The idea that you cannot surpass the achievements of others (even if they were as leet at BM or eggz) is a terrible attitude to the game, and means less people like me are inspired to attempt to evolve lower characters


I would wager a guess that the places where good Marios play, if told to come up with a tier list (i would hope london feels this way), would put Mario above doc.





The final post there is important to where i would REALLY REALLY like this discussion to go. Too many times decent threads get obliterated by people who have little knowlefge on the subject, and the point gets de-railed.

so PLEASE
PLEASE
PLEASE

only post if you are willing to debate, only post if you are knowledgable on the subject. Only post if your good, only post if you know what metagame is and what mindgames consist of.

Thankyou.






IN REPLY TO THAT DUDE BELOW:
-----------

Idiot... go text on your cellphone please throw me a bone and leave this thread/edit that post with insight

 

[DtJ Jungle]

i know what metagame and mindgames are.

 

[Arcade]

*Bookmarks thread hoping for a good, mature debate that will also help me decide who to focus on*

 

[j3ly]

Thankyou arcade. I will be trying my best to regulate this and posts like that definatly help the discussion move onwards in an intelligent fashion. Gad i sound like a ***.

 

[Eggz]

Mario is definitely better than doc, but its by such a small margin that its completely pointless to debate it. Docs better at gimping and killing, marios better at comboing and recovering.

 

[j3ly]

even though i agree with you there is alot of opinion in that post. I wouldent say that its completely pointless, because other peoples be havin different views and food to put on the table and whatnot.

Is doc really better at gimping - marios weak bair goes into strong bair which doc cannot do, and 1 bair usually = death or puts them into a capable position; mario also has the uair which i find to be more useful against marths than bair (in edgeguarding) at times, especially slightly above the stage. Then Mario also has the walljump -> uair/nair - again a really really good switchup against marth.

I would say docs bair (onstage now) benefits from being able to maybe quickly punish a mistake to get people offstage, and scrape some safe % from edgeguarding - something mario cannot do as easily

 

[jugfingers]

Mario Mario


1. Faster

2. has raperererer CalmBows

3.shfflduairtofulhopuairtofastfalleduairtoutilttoshuairfastfalluairtofwdsmsh

4.fairfairfairfairfairfair

3. CahmboetoshffldfairjabresetchargedforwardSMASH

4.walljumps

5.yoshisstories upbcancells


Doctor Mario Mario

1.ballin taunt

2.taunt cancels

3.solid build

 

[Dogysamich]

TL;DR. To save people from a tl;dr post, i've played both characters enough to know that it REALLY comes down to preference. It's so much easier to argue that Mario is better than Doc than vice versa. Too bad this community is based off of tourney results as opposed to overall character matchups. So by that logic, until people actually start PLAYING mario and winning, Doc will "be better." Welcome to Smash bros.



___

-laughs hysterically-
You brought this green wall on yourself.

___
Hmm. Lets see. There are holes in this argument. Some built by some false statements, some built off of opinion, and some built by the fact of how this community is structured.

Ok, some false statements.

1) Doc doens't have the worst recovery in the game. Roy does. Even if you were to revamp the old-as-f*** recovery tier list, Roy would still be last. Doc would still be a close second though.

Where Doc's recovery shines and actually has some use over mario's is doc's overall ability to protect himself on recovery. Sure, he does the same things as mario, but the one difference they have between them are projectiles. The problem with mario's fireballs is that they have a longer trajectory, meaning it's easier for people to come in under them. Not so easy to do against pills with a sharper angle.

Oh, and both of them have the same up+b range. Doc can do the same wide angle up+b that mario can, and Mario can do the same high up+b than Doc can. -Shrug- honestly might have been something taken out in pal, I don't know.

Beyond that, yes, you're right that mario has a much better recovery with more options. But no, Doc doesn't have the worst recovery. Try again.

2) Mario's platform game is superior to Doc's?

First, you might want to define "platform game". If you're talking about the ability to attack a character on a platform, you stopped dead at straight up front attacks. Have you considered projectiles and Doc's ability to shoot somebody off a platform where as mario has a much harder time doing so? Have you considered that it might be more useful to have a b.air that actually knocks somebody away as opposed to one that leaves a person there? Seeing as your argument is having a weak b.air for 2 aerials, if somebody's at 80%, rolls out like a ******, and doesn't put their shield up, I dont want to hit them twice, I want them off the stage.

Second, have you ever considered the ability to defend a platform? Because seeing as you stated Doc has a better d.smash (which is a fact), with the way it hits, that makes his ability to defend himself on a platform slightly better than Mario's (note: both of them pretty much suck at defending platforms in the grand scheme of things).

3) Mario can SH U.air -> N.air to b.air grabs.
You say that like doc CANT do that or something?

4) Mario can B.air -> Grab.
*Points up*
Weak b.air or reverse b.air.

5) FH Fireball -> Waveland
*points up* You sound like Eggz years ago when he swore up and down Mario's projectile game was better than docs when he discovered that. I don't know why Marios think Doc can't FH Pill -> waveland.

And for a random note, people fall for that over there? lol

6) U.tilt > Knee.
You say that as if Doc's doesn't beat it? *looks down* Maybe in europe? -shrug- i dunno.

For the record, Mario vs Capfal is 50/50 imo, Doc vs Capfal is 40/60 (or whatever I put in that matchup guide. It's slight advantage Capfal)

7) WD Back -> F.smash beats every approach in the game.
Um, it sure as hell doesn't beat empty hops. But again, community logic says that an approach much include an attack. -rolls eyes-

You would think "Well if you just hop at me and I keep you from attacking, I win". That'd be fine and dandy if f.smash was completely safe on whiff. It's not.

If nothing else, you give up position and advantage. Advantage, yes, a concept not really touched on much in this game, but if you want to keep wavedashing back and f.smashing "to demoralize me", by all means feel free. Back yourself up to the ledge and let me control center stage. That's all I want anyway, and apparently all I have to do is TELEGRAPH an aerial and empty hop.

F.smash doesn't cover enough area to be the godsend you make it out to be.

____
Then the opinion, which is what a majority of this is

1) Doc isn't about comboing.
-laughs hysterically- Ok, first and foremost, who's UK's best Doc? Bullet bill?

anyway. Doc isn't a combo heavy as mario, that's a fact, but doc actually can get alot of combos. The thing many people don't realize is that he doesn't get the standard, high impact u.tilts and u.air juggles that mario (somewhat) can get. He CAN do that, but his combos stem from other stuff such as d.airs.

The only reason people say Doc doesn't combo is because it's not the kinda stuff people want to see in combo videos.

2) Mario's N.air is a KO move.
First, and I want you to think and be honest about this; at what percent does Mario's n.air KILL people? Not put them off the stage, KILL. I certainly wouldn't put it in the realm of a kill move.

Second, yes mario has a normal n.air, doc has a reverse. Guess what that leads to? Player preference. I mean, you say in your post that N.air sets you up to b.air them on the second jump. With the way Doc's n.air is, he can combo straight FROM the n.air.

3) Mario's recovery is difficult to edgeguard.
Not at all. All any character needs to do is push mario far enough to where he has to up+b, and the stock is free from that point out. Same as Doc.

Problem is, people are all hung up on gimping and having flashy "I want this to end now" edgeguards. That's the current meta, for whatever reason.

Mario still has more OPTIONs than Doc, yes, but Mario isn't difficult to edgeguard.

For the record, if a character "is gimped", then they cant recover period. So I don't see what that point in saying Doc getting get gimped, he cant recover. If jiggs gets gimped jiggs cant recover.

And then last, least, and probably the "dumb" part of this argument.

4) Mario is fun, Doc is not. Everybody is impressed with Mario, Not with Doc.

Holy s*** lemme just go ahead and say how much I hate character fanboyism.

I mean, maybe it drives me up the wall in the smash community because of the degrees that it happens (due to characters being iconic nintendo characters), but lol. To constantly throw that in your argument with any seriousness? -shakes head-

Anyway.

Mario is fun, Doc is not; YET ANOTHER ASPECT THAT COMES DOWN TO PLAYSTYLE. Lets just pretend, for the sake of this argument, Mario is a combo machine and Doc is apparently a defensive specialist like you make them out to be, it comes down to what you really want to play. I don't know why everybody thinks that everybody wants to be "that guy who has 7 combo videos." There are some people who like playing defensive characters. I mean, what do you think a samus main is? They're not going to wow everybody with u.air juggles, but most of them have as much fun as their capfal buddies.

Everybody is impressed with Mario, not with Doc.
Now, seeing as you keep throwing in UK comments, I'll say two of MY OWN OPINIONS as to why you'd think that.

- What's actually winning over there with Mario? That has alot of influence on the situation. I can think of 5 Docs (6 if I biasedly include myself). THERE ARE NO MARIOS SO NOBODY CARES. Heck, to add insult to injury, 3 of the said 6 Doc mains are are Doc/Mario mains (1 is actually a Mario/Doc, but plays more Doc). Nobody cares about their marios around here.

- What's actually being played over there? Over here, the meta is at a point to where Doc is more useful than Mario. Judging by what I saw come from Europe, there would, by default, be a higher call for Mario anyway. We don't have alot of sheiks, and Marth is for whatever reason all but dead.

I've seen plenty of good Marios, but I have so much character-to-character knowledge that I'm not "impressed" by a Mario over a Doc. I see stuff and I'm like "Yeah, mario's SUPPOSED to do that." It's like being impressed by a Falco who has d.air -> shine combos and can hit the 20 degree angles on his recovery. He's SUPPOSED to do that.

____
And then, the ultimate community flaw that kills your argument
And trust me, I hate to say this, but this is sadly how this community works, and because of "Pride, Tradition, and Elitism", this his how things are going to change until something radical happens.

Now, follow the formula.

First and foremost, US Meta (and Canada, since Canada frequents US tourneys) comes before any other meta. US is the currently has the largest pool in the Melee community. Because of the age of the game and the state of the community, this is probably never gonig to change.

In the US, Docs do better than Marios. Docs don't WIN (unless it's like, lower end tourneys that "The big guns" don't show up to), but Docs outplace the Marios.

Because of that, more people want to play Doc than Mario. He's "Looks like a better character" because he's doing well. You can gauge it however you want to (board activity, tourney placement, tourney views), but you'll find that there are more Docs than Marios.

The tierlist is based off of a collective opinion of a character's overall potential to win a tournament. Now, as a smash player, you might go off and think "Yes, this is how it's supposed to be.", but lemme break this down academically to you.

Tier list = Character's Tourney Potential.
Character's Tourney Potential = Results
Results = Number of Characters Present + Character's Finishing Placement.

Now, think about what I've said. The tierlist (which determines what character is "better than others") is based off the character's potential to win a tourney. That stems from how well the character does. So if more of the character is present, they're going to, by default, do better.

If 7 Docs show up to a 12 Person tourney, Mario winning is going to be looked at as "an outstanding player" compared to the 7 Docs not placing dead last.

HERE'S THE THING THOUGH.

The key detail to note about all of this is that I have yet to say the word "Match-Up".

So what I'm telling you is that IT DOESN'T MATTER if Mario is a better character with better tools and overall better matchups than Doc, as long as Docs are outplacing Marios in America, Doc "is the better character."

That's how this community works. This is the only place where "the better character" can and does actually wind up LOWER than lesser characters.

Matchups around here arent based off of who actually DOES better in the matchup than who, it's based off of "Can I think of 10 ____ players who beat these _____ players." There really isn't a thing as "being good at a bad matchup" in this community.

I.e., Look at the current meta. People want Jiggs for top 3 because 2 players (Mango and HBox) finish on top, and Marth off the map because nobody really MAINS marth anymore. Now ask yourself, has Jiggs really gotten that much better and Marth that much worse, or are you looking at 2 people who can play bad matchups and did people stop playing this character?

That's what this is a case of. Although Mario has better matchups against a majority of the cast (and more specifically, the "tourney viable cast" (That's a stupid *** backroom catchphrase)), Doc's have been placing better, therefore "Doc has better matchups and is a better character."

I mean, Mario has a better matchup vs Marth, Sheik, Peach, Capfal, Doc, and I'd even give you Luigi and Falco if you asked nicely. Doc does better against Jiggs, ICs, and Ganon. (I'm not bothering with Low or bottom tier).

But all that doesn't matter cause HMW and Shroomed made it out of pools at Pound4, and the only Marios I can even think of that were there were DJN (who is a Doc/Mario/(others) main), and Boss (Mario/Doc main who mostly plays Doc on video).

That's how this community runs, that's how the backroom runs, and that's sadly how people want it. It makes no sense, but I've been around, seen enough, and tried enough arguing to know that is ONE thing that will never change around here.

It actually gives a whole new meaning to "Tiers are for queers", if you think about it.

___


So in the end, you can argue with us (the Docs) all you want, you can go out in the community and argue all you want, you can come up with all the cold hard facts, tried-and-trued tactics, actual player testimony, whatever. It doesn't matter.

The only way you're going to convince "the average person" around here that Mario is better than Doc is when

1) There are more Marios than Docs.
2) Those said Marios are placing better than Docs.

And with HMW and Shroomed popping up in videos like a weekly sitcom, you've got a loooooooong way to go before you can even hope to do that.

Good luck, have fun.

___
edit: forgot to add the important part.

@Arcade: Really, it's better for you to play both, and do more with Mario. There are some matchups that Doc does better than Mario (to the point of where you'd want to play Doc) and they both are similar enough that you can play them both (kind of like how alot of people play Fox/Falco, but it's easier).

If you for whatever reason only want to play one, IT IS PURELY PREFERENCE. You just have to try them both and see which one you wind up liking better.

 

[j3ly]

reserving this, i really really look forward to reading that in the morning, but its 2am i will edit this post later

1 thing though, at least in PAL for sure - docs (all 3 angles) upB is at a steeper angle, and the sweetspot is changed. Marios sweetspot for the longest horizontal upB is below and away from the stage, a good centimetre away - that is nuuutts.

Not sure if u said anything in the post on it, but pal mario weight less than pal doc. NTSC Mario, is the same weight as our doc, and our mario is a crazy weight u guys will never xp

 

[Dogysamich]

*points to the last point of "the post"*

That's fine, if I am playing PAL, melee is probably dead and gone.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

dogy writes the longests posts in the history of SWF

good post tho, i learned alot from it.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Me too :3

THE GREAT WALL OF GREEN

 

[JPOBS]

man, so many misconceptions and absolutely baseless statements in the first post.

i mean, comment like "at the expense of losing marios ridiculous sweetspot" ar ejust wrong cuz doc's sweetspot is nuts.

Then purely baseless statement such as "uptilt > knee" and "mario can waveland FH fireballs etc etc" while completely ignoring (or forgetting to mention) the fact that these two traits hold true for doc as well.

i could go on, but simply put, while you've made some good arguements for mario is good, half to time you completely forgot to mention (or ignored) how those traits correlated with what doc can do which makes the entire post worthless.

meh, w/e, dogy's got this lol

 

[Arcade]

@Arcade: Really, it's better for you to play both, and do more with Mario. There are some matchups that Doc does better than Mario (to the point of where you'd want to play Doc) and they both are similar enough that you can play them both (kind of like how alot of people play Fox/Falco, but it's easier).

If you for whatever reason only want to play one, IT IS PURELY PREFERENCE. You just have to try them both and see which one you wind up liking better.

Playing both of them... hmm, that's a good idea. I guess they ARE similar enough that it wouldn't be too hard to do it. I already suck enough vs. Peach and Sheik so knowing Mario could help me out there.

 

[Dogysamich]

Look at it like this.

Doc and Mario are the only two clones that are identical by character traits (movement speed, jump speed, weight (except for in pal), etc etc.). So, unlike ANY OTHER CLONE set in the game, it's not like you're asking yourself to play two completely different characters.

In large, Doc and Mario are the only two clones who fundamentally function the same. By that I mean their movesets are similar enough (properties, hitbox placement, knockback) to where you can basically play them the same. (Read: The character differences between them aren't as drastic as fox/falco)

So yeah, there are differences and you have to learn them to play the characters well, but it's really not as bad as other people try to make it out to be.

__

here are some rules of thumb to get you started. (Note: This excludes the blatantly obvious, such as "Mario's F.air is a meteor smash, Doc's sends you Up and out".)

1) Mario's Jab string is a completely viable mixup in itself, and is staggerable. Doc's Jab is a gimmick that realistically should NEVER work as a mixup.

2) Mario's U.smash is a viable KO move anytime you can land it (with respect to percent), Doc's U.smash has a double standard; on the ground, it gives a "meteor" effect, making it good for combos, in the air, it has normal knock back.

3) In any matchup where Mario does better than Doc, it's usually because of the threat that Mario's F.smash presents. In any matchup that Doc does better than Mario, it's usually because of the area control Doc has with pills. Usually being the keyword.

4) Mario's aerials have less L cancel lag.

5) If you can make it low and close on recovery, Mario can wall jump and up+b jump. Doc... well lets not talk about Doc. XD The inverse to this is, because Mario can recover better, he's got a wider range on his edgeguard area.

__

There are obviously MANY, MANY more differences between the two. Some important, such as Mario's F.smash being safe on block (as opposed to Doc's being punishable by fast, long range attacks), and some very miniscule details, such as Doc being able to throw G&W normally with port priority while Mario NEVER can.

I can tell you from experience, and I can point you to fairly successful Doc/Mario mains (Shroomed, DJN), and Mario/Doc mains (Green Mario, Boss, and I swear I'm forgetting one more but I cant think of him off the top of my head), and we'll all tell you the same thing.

It's not that hard, you just have to actually TRY it.

 

[ETWIST51294]

eighteenspikes?

 

[Arcade]

Mario's usmash actually does kill decently? Doc's usmash has a METEOR effect?? Never knew that ... I never use those moves.

Well thanks for the guidance. I'm definitely going to go try Mario out some and see how he fits.

Quick question: What does staggering mean? (Referring to Mario/Doc's jabs)

Sorry for being such a nublet with the questions

Wait, do you mean putting someone into hitstun? If so, does that mean Doc's jab doesn't put someone into hitstun for as long? I'm kinda confused.

 

[TheLake]

Wow dogysamich is asolute sex

Not just for the epic posts

but hes got mercedes backin him up

Odin sphere fo christmas ya'll

jingle all the waaay

 

[otg]

This should be stickied and mandatory for everyone to read if they want to post in the doc boards.

 

[Dogysamich]

eighteenspikes?

Unless he's got some super secret, he only plays Doc.

Quick question: What does staggering mean? (Referring to Mario/Doc's jabs)

It's not a real "smash" term persay, but it's the concept that you can actually stagger/delay/pause-in-between/wait-to-do/whatever-word-and-or-phrase-you-want-to-use between the jabs to create a REAL mixup.

You cant interrupt mario's jabs.

Doc's, on the other hand, is all a gimmick. If you're actually expecting the jab, you can punish it. (spacing and speed respected)

 

[Arcade]

OK then. I understand now. Thanks.

 

[TresChikon]

Is it just me or does your statement on how the game works seem really sarcastic Dogy?

 

[Hellsinglover999]

the doc u forgot was Home Made Waffles

EDIT o ok i guss i was wrong

 

[DtJ Jungle]

i think he was trying to think of doc mains with mario seconds and vise versa

i dont think hmw plays reg mario

 

[Dogysamich]

Your observations and standpoint on how the game works seems really sarcastic if that's what you were going for.

Ya know, I just typed a huge *** PM to somebody who basically called me out on the same thing.

And when I say HUGE *** PM, I wouldnt' be surprised if it was bigger than the original post i made in here.

I figured somebody would call me out on it eventually, so I typed that PM thinking it would happen.

I'll copy/paste the whole thing, and highlight the interesting parts in orange. Read it and think about it for a sec.

Note: The first question I addressed in this PM is "I get the feeling you don't like this game or the community.", the middle portion talks about the formation of the tierlist, and the latter portion talks about the term "tourney viable" in the smash community compared to others.
_________

(sorry, I get kinda long winded when I go into detail. And I got kinda bored, so I figured I'd type a while. )

First and foremost, I'm not upset at you pming me at all. Hell, I wouldn't have minded if you called me out. I know I look like the bad guy when I do this stuff, but if and when you see what I'm getting at, you'll see why it happens.

___

I don't hate the people of the community. I can tell you a few (hell, really only like, two) people in the community I DISLIKE, but for the literal definition of hate, I don't hate anybody.

What I do hate is how people think about here. It drives me up the wall. In large, it's elitist, it's inconsistent, it's absolute, it's boardline illogical, and when you actually venture out into other stuff and come back, it really makes you want to just punch people in the face.

___

Cause I mean, take the Mario > Doc thing for example. I've told people for years that Mario is better than Doc, although I can make a much better argument that it really comes down to player preference and player style. But, aside from some open-minded people, you can't really convince push that idea without being called crazy.

Why? Because that's how things roll around here. The MBR look at the tourney results, and say "Hey, all the Marios have died, drop his *** down the tierlist" (elistist), then alot of the people who were TRYING Mario jump ship to Doc because Mario magically has all of these horrible matchup that Green Mario and Eggz are probably the ONLY two that have ever seen (inconsistent). Once everybody hops off and writes him as a lost cause, he can never be good again (absolute), and all this came because the matchups magically change overnite, inspite of the fact that people who actually PLAY the characters do well (illogical).

I mean, I want you to seriously think about this; is jiggs REALLY a top 3 character, or are mango and hbox good at bad matchups? If jiggs really is THAT GOOD of a character, why isn't there a large amount of randomly successful jiggs like there are Foxs and Falcos? It's not like people don't PLAY jiggs, it's because they get destroyed in those harder and bad matchups.

*

I probably could write a short book about everything I don't like about the community's mentality. "Smash is this great entity that is unique from every other thing in the genre", not exactly, although it is fairly different. "This is the most indepth and advanced game ever", not exactly.

I mean, those two specific points are some of the many reasons why people dont want to get into the game. The first one is very elitist, and both of them make the game sound like you need a degree to get started, which we both know isn't REALLY true.

___

It's like, I see people who are supposed to have some merit say something dumb, and I think "Wow, is this what we're working with? No wonder nobody wants to deal with us, we look like *******."

I mean, there's one specific incident in the MBR where somebody said "We're not like street fighter. Our mixups are not just footsies." ... -facepalms- That seriously makes me want to ask "Have you played ANY SF for more than 5 minutes? When/Where, high/low, grab/hit. What mixups does smash have? AM I GOING TO HIT YOU OR AM I GOING TO GRAB YOU? AM I DOING TO DO IT NOW OR ONE SECOND LATER." If I went into detail, smash would have the shorter end of the stick, but really they have the same.

Oh, and while I'm thinking about horribly wrong, I think of the pound4 stream when a commentator said something along the lines of "This is what's great about the game. The meta is always changing and is unpredictable. It's not like street fighter or tekken." Anybody who keeps up with current SF4 looks at that and says "Wow, I hope this guy isn't talking about Sagat being "unbeatable", considering that they've been talking about how he loses projectile wars with akuma and can't zone viper." Somebody who's stayed with SF's history might say something like "Hope he's not randomly talking about a shoto being on top, caaaaause yun and chun don't fit that category." All this is in lou if the fact that FOUR YEARS AGO, Reflex said "I'm willing to bet money that the peak of melee's metagame is going to be a jiggs who can space well and land rests." -looks at pound4 results- I'll admit, Reflex is a cooky genius, but he called this YEARS in advance.

(I know what two guys I'm talking about, I'm not going to namedrop to hurt people.)

-My point in all this is that smash players, as a collective whole, tend to sit in their own world and look down at others. I can't act like I'm not a part of it, I just wish it'd change.

(last point with this and i'll go on, I swear)

I mean, it's not like other communities haven't TRIED to include us. But, with the way we operate, we just slap their hands away and say "Na, we had MLG, we can run on our own." In the south, we (the smash community) actually function relatively well with "the fighting game community". Final Round, second biggest fighting game tourney in the nation, second to evo, barely scrapped up enough pre regs to have both melee and brawl, inspite of the fact that the southern brawl community s***ted on them last year (that's important because sadly, we're not looked at as 2 different communities, but one "Smash" community. One thing i absolutely hate about the community mentality. Not only do we let it happen, we encourage it). You know why FR let that happen, because Shin blanka (the TO) knows who chaddd, ga peach, mike g, cornell, and I are. We, and a few others, play other fighters and do relatively well. Melee is another game in our mix. They give up chance after chance inspite of the fact that the way we operate really kills their tourney and we refuse to change it (sigh).

But the community as a whole? No. That's taboo to support "those guys who talk trash about our game." No, not with their "stupid fireball infested games", or their "juggle-a-thon" games.

*

I really haven't even hit the tip of the iceberg with stuff I don't like. But me constantly janking on the community isn't because I hate people.

If anything, all I really want is for it to change. I don't even want the fame or anything to go along with it, but I mean ****, I can't count how many people I've met that said "Man, melee is an aight game, but I just can't get into it because of ___________", and that blank is something that really SHOULDN'T be happening, it's just people wont try it.

***********

So next topic, the tierlist.

*slams head against desk* Now, I could tell you a story about me, the smash community, and this tierlist. It's a sad story that, if avoided, could have me sitting with the likes of M2K, but it's largely irrelevant to the point.

My gripe about it has always been that the way the tierlist is done around here doesn't tell me who's better than who, it tells me who's more likely to win a tourney. On the surface, that's a completely valid purpose. No matter what I think or believe, I can't argue with that, nobody can. The flaw with that is that this game isn't always played in tourney. The bigger flaw (which is what you get with a tierlist based off of matchups) is that it doesn't tell me which character is literally better than the other one.

Going all the way back to Mario > Doc. Look at that tierlist, and look at past tierlists for... hell, as long as I can remember i guess. I think it's always said Doc > Mario. Like we've said though, Mario is > Doc. But because HMW, Shroomed, Boss, 18s, OTG, Pine, DJN and I Exist, and because $mac, Bob$, Cyphus, Desh, Captain Jack, S-royal existed, Doc is "a better character." Yeah Doc's going to finish better if there are more doc's and they're better players. Doesn't mean the CHARACTER is good.

Every matchup chart attempt has failed? There's an obvious reason for that; nobody really plays all the characters. If anybody actually PLAYS said character, they're usually not specifically amazing with them (save a few specifics.)

So imagine this, if you've never seen a good m2, and nobody plays m2 (taj plays marth, run with that for now), would you really let me convince you that M2 stands any sort of a chance vs Sheik? No. That's because whenever you DO see that one random m2 player, he gets annihilated by scrubmaster557. I myself watch Iori go to tourneys, MM EVERY SHEIK in the building, and win most if not all of his matches.

You can't convince me the matchup is something like 2-8. But how does the community work? Sheik is high tier, m2 is bottom. I see sheiks doing well, I forgot what m2's down+b down. Therefore, Sheik must destroy m2.

___

With the way the tierlist is, it's apparently "impossible" for a character below another on the tierlist to have a good matchup.

Prime example: Doc vs Jiggs. People are hauling off and saying Doc/Jiggs is 4-6 (or worse) in Jiggs favor. Except for a select few people, nobody's SEEN the **** matchup, aside from Chillfever99 vs Mango, and of course Mango's going to DESTROY the guy, he doens't have a clue how to play the matchup. You ASK mango, or hbox, or honest jiggs who's played a competent doc, and they'll tell you "The matchup is hard." Now, if jiggs players who are on top of the world are saying Doc is hard for their character, why do people still think Jiggs not only beats, but destroys Doc?

Because Jiggs is higher tier, therefore all matchups must be in her favor. "We're not going to TRY it, we'll just pencil it in and deal with it later." Ignore the people who've actually play the matchup, Doc's aren't a hot commodity.

__

I've gotten used to it, and I accept the fact that that's how the community works, but it's annoying when a guy new guy comes up to me and is like "Hey Dogy, I want to play Link, what do you think about that?", I say "Well, it's not going to be as easy as some characters, you might need a secondary, but it's doable.", and then some random guy (be it a "credible" person or not) comes by and spews "Link? Why play him? He's low tier, low tiers can't do anything, you need to play Marth." (True example)

Every matchup above link isn't abysmal. Sure he's got disadvantages, and sure he's got horrid matchups, but most of them are do-able. It's work, but it's doable. That's all some people want. Play a character they like, go to tourneys, and have a good time.

But people come talking about tourney viable. And yes, that's a concept that doesn't originate in smash. But there's all sorts of twists and turns around here when the words "tourney viable" come up.

Somebody says not tourney viable in smash, and it's like "Well, this character can't even beat the guy above him. You'll never beat anybody, inspite of how good or smart you are. Character has too many unworkable flaws. You'll never win ANYTHING." No consideration to the level of the player or level of play they're exposed to.

It ties into the tierlist and balance of the game (Is melee balanced or unbalanced? depends on who you ask), but the words "tourney viable" turn a lot of potential players away.

_

Now, take another community, MvC2 for example (Broke vs Capcom). Admittedly horribly unbalanced game (everybody knows that), with a small pool of playable characters. Like, 75% of the cast is "Not Tourney Viable". But say you want to play Megaman for whatever reason. Guess what you just landed? A bad matchup for Magneto, a HORRIBLE matchup. Now sure, you've got an unviable point character, but say you just want to go jank on some Magnetos, and you'll switch up for other teams? Well there you go, mission accomplished.

SC4, I main Talim (and cassandra). Talim is considered the second worst character in the game, and outside of God's Disciple known an Kira, there's absolutely no way anybody can win with her and absolutly no reason anybody should play with her. Guess what? She's got a 50/50 with Hilde, "Miss Broke." 2nd worst character in the game with a 5/5 vs 2nd best. If Talim is my Hilde slayer, then that's all I need.

See where I'm getting with that? People don't think like that around here.

If somebody wants Y.Link to destroy Peach, that's not possible. Y.Link's low tier, Peach is high. Does not compute. Nevermind what those 2 (or the ones who've played it) say about the matchup.

__

See where tourney viable goes? It's not a written law or anything, but when other communities talk about tourney viable, they tend to mean characters that just can't work on their own. They've done enough research to know if and what utility the character has, but it usually means the character can't function on their on.

In smash, a non tourney viable character can't do anything. It's by God's will if they ever squeak a win out. No way that matchup is closer than 7-3. Don't even think about mentioning that character in MBR.

*****

-taps fingers on desk-
I think I'ma stop here for now.

Like I said, I could go on for ages about it, but I'll save it for another time.

Again, I'm not mad by any stretch of the imagination. Doesn't bother me at all. I just don't like the way people think about alot of things around here.

If for nothing else, it's closing a lot of doors on the community.

Not too many people are stepping back and looking at the big picture, they're just looking at "Hey, Pound4 has 300+ participants, biggest smash tourney ever." You ever think where those people came from? It's not exactly NEW people like everybody thinks. I mean, year there are SOME, but alot of people came out of retirement, and then alot of players flew in.

*shrug* In the end, it's really just a half full/ half empty kind of thing.

 

[Dogysamich]

Yeah, I know this is wrong, but i'd rather do this than have somebody sift through a wall just to find this.

the doc u forgot was Home Made Waffles

i think he was trying to think of doc mains with mario seconds and vise versa

i dont think hmw plays reg mario

jungle's right.

Being more specific, when I say a Doc/Mario main, I mean somebody who mains doc and secondaries mario. Mario/Doc being vice versa.

... -shrugs- Boss isn't an absolute, but when somebody mentions his name, I tend to think of his mario before his doc.

... brawl's fault.

 

[TresChikon]

It wasn't a challenge per se, I just wanted your true opinion, not the communities', Dogy.

Apparently, we're just consumed by the immediate aesthetics of what's going on and totally overlooking what's really there.

Hopefully things can change.

Anyways, you've convinced me that Mario > Doc.

 

[Lordydennek]

Dogy. That post just above was so legit i had a legitorgasm. uber props. Im gonna play whoever the **** i want. and I dont give a **** if they arent "tourny viable" Ill make them tourny viable. Chu Dat did it. Its possible. **** the tier list. Ill play characters that are "Lordydennek Viable"

 

[Dogysamich]

Oh, and btw. Typing at 1am made me miss the whole point of your first post tres.

Yeah, I know I sound pretty sarcastic the way I talk about stuff. That's just how I am, ask anybody who's ever met me.

Not trying to sound "high and mighty", but I'd say it's better to call me satirical with how I go about things. *second thought edit: I dunno, guess I like expanding my vocab or some nonsense like that.*

It wasn't a challenge per se, I just wanted your true opinion, not the communities', Dogy.

Apparently, we're just consumed by the immediate aesthetics of what's going on and totally overlooking what's really there.

Hopefully things can change.

Anyways, you've convinced me that Mario > Doc.

Na, don't be like that. If there's something in there you don't like, speak up. Don't go with that sheep mentality. That's how all this stuff started.

You don't have to be as outlandish about it, and you don't have to come with f***in' essays, but if you got a problem with something, don't just roll over and go with stuff you don't agree with. In all actuality, you'll learn a lot more and be better off than just blindly following.

Keeping things short, here's a common topic that NOBODY really thinks about, but actually has many "correct" answers.

Smash is the ONLY game played in tourney where the winner is, by default, allowed to change his character. If all the stages in the tourney are "fair and balanced" to the point where on character has an insurmountable advantage, then why is the winner still be allowed to change his character?

I guarantee you'll come up with the typical answers. "So we don't wind up with ICs on RC. That's free.", or "Because Corneria is ridiculously bused for Fox." Neither one of those are wrong by any stretch, but have you really THOUGHT about it, or do you just go along with it?

I'm pretty sure I could convince you either way, if you wanted me to. But nobody even considers the alternative, they just roll with "tradition".

(For the record, Smash (melee and brawl) is not the ONLY game where stage selection matters. It is, however, the game where stage selection is dynamic enough to drastically change matchups.)

There's plenty of stuff like that around here; stuff that gets overlooked, stuff that gets warped, and stuff that just biasedly represented. It stands out so much when you look around at other things.

_________

Mario > Doc. Don't get so hung up over it.

I personally don't drive the point across to people because, like I said, the difference isn't big enough to matter. It really comes down to preference in playstyle.

I like having the threat (or the crutch, depending on how you think) of being able to kill fox anywhere in the 100%s when I land a grab on him. That's how I think, that's how I operate. Green Mario, on the other hand, likes having the ability to combo the dirt-trash out of Fox until he gets TO 100%.

It's not like Mario doesn't have setups in the 100%s, and it's not like Doc can't combo Fox. It's just Mario's better at combos and Doc has stronger kill setups.

I honestly want to tell people to just drop the whole "Mario vs Doc" debate, but there's no harm in it. Not until some crack addict of a player reads "OMG DOC IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN MARIO" and picks him up, inspite of his ability to string stuff better with Mario.

-shrug- There's no problem with liking one over the other, just don't lose sleep over it.

Dogy. That post just above was so legit i had a legitorgasm. uber props. Im gonna play whoever the **** i want. and I dont give a **** if they arent "tourny viable" Ill make them tourny viable. Chu Dat did it. Its possible. **** the tier list. Ill play characters that are "Lordydennek Viable"

I mean, that's all some people want. Especially in a game like melee. And it's dumb when a guy comes up and is like "I love pokemon, I wanna play pikachu and be good" and he gets told that it's not possible because he gets chaingrabbed to death by sheik.

Sure, he also has problems against Marth, but Pika has evens with Capfal and Ganon, Fox and Falco are doable, people speculate that Pika has advantage over Peach, I mean, what more do you want? Beyond that, you're talking about characters you don't see at every tourney. And yes, it's not as pretty as having one or two slight disadvantages, but it's completely doable.

If you don't believe me, go ask axe, n64, pikachad. I don't know about axe, but I know n64 and pikachad both play pika and have their secondaries to cover the bad stuff (F*** some n64 sheik. XD)

___

tl;dr, that's my point. Non tourney viable around here, for whatever reason means that the character can't win at all, period. Everywhere else it pretty much just means "This better be your secondary, or you better have some secondaries."

It's pushing people away when you look at it the first way.

 

[Arcade]

I can definitely see where you're coming from. I've seen people post things like "I'm new to the game and I like Zelda, can anyone tell me how to get good with her?" only to be responded to with "Zelda sucks, you'll never win against anyone good if you pick her. Play Sheik."

 

[KirbyKaze]

Big green wall gets tl;dr

 

[Dogysamich]

KK you know good and well I have to type a 3 page minimum whenever I type a noteworthy post.

 

[Lordydennek]

Dogy. I noticed in ur post that you said smash is the only fighting game that in tournys ur allowed to swithch chars after you win. I dont agree with that rule either. why do we have it?

 

[Dogysamich]

I wasn't around when the rule(s) were actually setup, so don't take what I say as absolute.

But I hope it's literally to stop situations like ICs on RC, or any other "Free" setups like that (I.e. Jiggs vs a large majority of the cast on Mute City).

Again, stage selection matters SO MUCH in this game that it can literally change a matchup (You know this). Inspite of all of the stuff that goes on in and out of the game, why should it be to the point to where I can pick a map and you basically have to say "Ok, you win, game 3."

__

But on the other end of the spectrum, that's where somebody (more-than-likely somebody outside of the community) would come in and say "But aren't all the stages supposed to be fair?"

So many years later, and the rule set is STILL being changed, stages are STILL being cut, and the selection process is STILL being revamped.

Every time, though, the list is supposed to be "balanced enough to give everybody a reasonable chance in every situation".

I mean yes, advantages are still going to exist. That's what happens when you have character difference. That's what difference creates. But the purpose of cutting the stages afaik is to make it so that every character has a reasonable chance.

So, is brinstar a stage that plays to puff/peach's advantage, and (in general) against spanimal and capfal's advantages? Yes, but the latter group still has a reasonable chance to win. Does anybody WANT to be on Yoshi's with Marth aside from maybe ganon? No, but it's not unreasonably hard to beat Marth on the stage. (...just feels depressing as **** if you ever get caught in this situation)

___

So it's one of many things you could argue either way. I've personally never had a problem with the idea, and I've never SEEN a problem with it, but I've thought about the alternative time and time again.

I mean heck, with the way the stagelist is going, whenever we land on the inevitable FD only, I don't see why it couldn't happen at that point.

 

[Lordydennek]

The day we have fd only is the day that capfal will begin to dominate the scene. oh and falco will replace fox as the best. (lasers on fd are just dumb) but yes i see it both ways as well. its just weird that someone could change chars after theyd won.

 

[Rubyiris]

I wasn't around when the rule(s) were actually setup, so don't take what I say as absolute.

But I hope it's literally to stop situations like ICs on RC, or any other "Free" setups like that (I.e. Jiggs vs a large majority of the cast on Mute City).

Again, stage selection matters SO MUCH in this game that it can literally change a matchup (You know this). Inspite of all of the stuff that goes on in and out of the game, why should it be to the point to where I can pick a map and you basically have to say "Ok, you win, game 3."

__

But on the other end of the spectrum, that's where somebody (more-than-likely somebody outside of the community) would come in and say "But aren't all the stages supposed to be fair?"

So many years later, and the rule set is STILL being changed, stages are STILL being cut, and the selection process is STILL being revamped.

Every time, though, the list is supposed to be "balanced enough to give everybody a reasonable chance in every situation".

I mean yes, advantages are still going to exist. That's what happens when you have character difference. That's what difference creates. But the purpose of cutting the stages afaik is to make it so that every character has a reasonable chance.

So, is brinstar a stage that plays to puff/peach's advantage, and (in general) against spanimal and capfal's advantages? Yes, but the latter group still has a reasonable chance to win. Does anybody WANT to be on Yoshi's with Marth aside from maybe ganon? No, but it's not unreasonably hard to beat Marth on the stage. (...just feels depressing as **** if you ever get caught in this situation)

___

So it's one of many things you could argue either way. I've personally never had a problem with the idea, and I've never SEEN a problem with it, but I've thought about the alternative time and time again.

I mean heck, with the way the stagelist is going, whenever we land on the inevitable FD only, I don't see why it couldn't happen at that point.

Falco says hai2u.

 

[Dogysamich]

The day we have fd only is the day that capfal will begin to dominate the scene. oh and falco will replace fox as the best. (lasers on fd are just dumb) but yes i see it both ways as well. its just weird that someone could change chars after theyd won.

It's not like FD only tourneys have NEVER been done. I mean heck, I'd swear that's what Japan's been on for the longest. There've been plenty of FD only tourneys that have ran fine. I swear that's why a lot of players who originate from South FL don't mind or love FD, inspite of the matchup they face (XiF and Linguini are the two main examples that come to my mind).

I always laugh at the idea of a FD only tourney, but last time I was around GA Peach he was like "What character has a glaring advantage on FD?" And at first I was like "Easy, Bowser." Then I thought about it; bowser doesn't exactly get DESTROYED on FD like he can on other stages. I mean yeah, YS is great for him overall, but there are still plenty of times where it leads to a horrible situation.

So I was like ".... Ya know, it couldn't be the WORST thing that happened. It'd kinda suck being the ONLY stage, but I could see it happening."

__
I'm not saying it should happen, cause I don't like the idea, but I see where people come from when they say it.

*cuts this short cause i'm laughin my *** off at yay on skype*

 

[Lordydennek]

Idk. Falco seems to have a hugeee advantage there. and cfalcon does as well. he can tech chase with ease and full hop everything. its easy for him to jump in and stomp and then get away w/o punishment. and falco can put some chars under a full stage press with lasers and slow ppl cant move nor get away. FD is actually a stage i ban againt lots of chars.

 

[-Sinister-]

no

The day we have fd only is the day that capfal will begin to dominate the scene.

pfft

i'll believe it when i see it.

i'm pretty sure that even with only FD:

fox>falcon
marth=falcon
sheik>falcon
falco>>>>falcon
jiggs>>falcon

just sayin

 

[Lordydennek]

pfft

i'll believe it when i see it.

i'm pretty sure that even with only FD:

fox>falcon
marth=falcon
sheik>falcon
falco>>>>falcon
jiggs>>falcon

just sayin

That may be too many arrows on the falco vs falcon. lol. YOu have seen it. I trash all ur chars on FD with Falcon. Scrubsauce.