why is sheik so low on the tier list?

[AvengingTheKnight]

I always thought she was up there with marth

 

[UltiMario]

That was in Melee.

 

[KillerJawz]

I admit Sheik is kinda underrated, but she is in the correct tier imo.

She lost alot of the things that made her awesome in melee.

 

[Llumys]

This thread is win.

 

[AvengingTheKnight]

what did she lose?

 

[Tristan_win]

What the hell with only lurkers answering? LOL

Anyways the reason why Sheik is so low is because we don't have enough people using her and even fewer using her correctly.

and what she lost was easy to use kill power.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik is low because she is light as shiz her recovery is very predictable, and no matter what anyone says....she DOES have trouble killing in a lot of matchups. I think she should rise a bit though....probably to the bottom of B before it's all said and done.

 

[saviorslegacy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLR5kZI8sP0
SL "You people blocking the meta game, you're all idiots."
Sheik main "But you're the one who posts like you are in a bar."
SL "Do you have a brain?"
SL "I am trying to go up in the tiers."
Sheik main "You've obviously injured yourself poor human."
Sheik main "He's right, you should sue you."
SL "Yeah well you should sue Sakurai cuz he f*cked you up."

Spoiler

I ran out of idea's at that point.

Anyways, you all are idiots. Take into consideration who Sheik is and stop comparing her to people who are not Sheik. Sure they are in the same game, but they play so differently. So for the next bunch of match ups we are going to pretend that Sheik is lets say Olimar and then get a ratio from that.
"NO!" Sheik has options and combo's. Which makes her a very unpredictable character.
Her recovery is less predictable than Diddy's. We have a game going on to where the foe has two options and we have to counters.
#1 They stay on the stage to protect the stage and we tether.
#2 They stay on the ledge and we Vanish.
Vanish is an extremely good recovery move. I have been take hoop damage from being to low and still recover to the stage. On top of that, if a foe mistimes hitting you out of Vanish it is pretty much a stage spike. The wind from Vanish has also ****ed up my foe.
So y'all can stop *****ing about the recovery aspect of Sheik.

"She is light."
Amazing ****, tell someone who cares.

"She is a fast faller."
That just means that you have to learn SDI and find an alt to take out Pika/IC's

"She has trouble kill."
SL "Your an idiot."
Tell me... is frame 3 fast? A: yes
Sheik doesn't have trouble killing kay? If you can get a tipper at low percents than I'm sorry, but that was cheap. SHEIK was not built to kill at no 100ish%. She can do a few combo's at low percents and get the foe to f-tilt lock percents quickly. Then she can f-tilt them to 50ish% - death percents. It also has a solid ender. After that you can throw Needle's for an easy 18% or chain lock for 30ish%. Also include f-tilt combo's that can do more than 20ish% each time they are in f-tilt range.
Now... tell me, how fast does your opponent take damage? A: pretty ****in fast
So yeah, she gets them to her KO percents w/o a problem.
The guess what? Starting at about 80% and moving up to 140% she has kill set ups or moves that kill. If you play right you should do good.
You can also punish with DACUS at any point in time.


Learn to play Sheik, not someone else. Wants you know how to play Sheik you wont be making comments like this. Unless you are emo.

ps I meant offense in this post you don't pretend I didn't.

Spoiler

Don't hate me though because I don't want to damage friendships by speaking the truth.

pss Look here for more questions.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=253688

 

[Judo777]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLR5kZI8sP0
SL "You people blocking the meta game, you're all idiots."
Sheik main "But you're the one who posts like you are in a bar."
SL "Do you have a brain?"
SL "I am trying to go up in the tiers."
Sheik main "You've obviously injured yourself poor human."
Sheik main "He's right, you should sue you."
SL "Yeah well you should sue Sakurai cuz he f*cked you up."

Spoiler

I ran out of idea's at that point.

Anyways, you all are idiots. Take into consideration who Sheik is and stop comparing her to people who are not Sheik. Sure they are in the same game, but they play so differently. So for the next bunch of match ups we are going to pretend that Sheik is lets say Olimar and then get a ratio from that.
"NO!" Sheik has options and combo's. Which makes her a very unpredictable character.
Her recovery is less predictable than Diddy's. We have a game going on to where the foe has two options and we have to counters.
#1 They stay on the stage to protect the stage and we tether.
#2 They stay on the ledge and we Vanish.
Vanish is an extremely good recovery move. I have been take hoop damage from being to low and still recover to the stage. On top of that, if a foe mistimes hitting you out of Vanish it is pretty much a stage spike. The wind from Vanish has also ****ed up my foe.
So y'all can stop *****ing about the recovery aspect of Sheik.

"She is light."
Amazing ****, tell someone who cares.

"She is a fast faller."
That just means that you have to learn SDI and find an alt to take out Pika/IC's

"She has trouble kill."
SL "Your an idiot."
Tell me... is frame 3 fast? A: yes
Sheik doesn't have trouble killing kay? If you can get a tipper at low percents than I'm sorry, but that was cheap. SHEIK was not built to kill at no 100ish%. She can do a few combo's at low percents and get the foe to f-tilt lock percents quickly. Then she can f-tilt them to 50ish% - death percents. It also has a solid ender. After that you can throw Needle's for an easy 18% or chain lock for 30ish%. Also include f-tilt combo's that can do more than 20ish% each time they are in f-tilt range.
Now... tell me, how fast does your opponent take damage? A: pretty ****in fast
So yeah, she gets them to her KO percents w/o a problem.
The guess what? Starting at about 80% and moving up to 140% she has kill set ups or moves that kill. If you play right you should do good.
You can also punish with DACUS at any point in time.


Learn to play Sheik, not someone else. Wants you know how to play Sheik you wont be making comments like this. Unless you are emo.

ps I meant offense in this post you don't pretend I didn't.

Spoiler

Don't hate me though because I don't want to damage friendships by speaking the truth.

pss Look here for more questions.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=253688

Um our recovery is not less predictable than diddys. diddy doesnt have to use his options in any specific order. If the oppoent grabs the ledge we have to vanish no other choice so we do not have near as many options. Vanish unless canceled which it can only be canceled from certain angles it extremely easy to punish.

Yea we rack up damage like its our job but once they get over 100 our strings stop working near as well cause our move just start knocking people too far away and it becomes a guessing game. If we cant combo ftilt to upsmash then we have hard time killing because landing a tipper upsmash isnt that easy and our other moves dont kill with good DI until like 140-160. there is no question that sheik has troube killing that is why we need the great kill setups we have.

We dont have any move that hits in 3 frames....... Jab hits on frame 2 and dsmash on frame 4 those are our two fastest moves.....

Oh and I care that sheik is light call me weird for hating to die to snakes uptilt at 85%........

All that said sheik should be higher but not for the reasons SL said.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Um our recovery is not less predictable than diddys. diddy doesnt have to use his options in any specific order. If the oppoent grabs the ledge we have to vanish no other choice so we do not have near as many options. Vanish unless canceled which it can only be canceled from certain angles it extremely easy to punish.

Yea we rack up damage like its our job but once they get over 100 our strings stop working near as well cause our move just start knocking people too far away and it becomes a guessing game. If we cant combo ftilt to upsmash then we have hard time killing because landing a tipper upsmash isnt that easy and our other moves dont kill with good DI until like 140-160. there is no question that sheik has troube killing that is why we need the great kill setups we have.

We dont have any move that hits in 3 frames....... Jab hits on frame 2 and dsmash on frame 4 those are our two fastest moves.....

Oh and I care that sheik is light call me weird for hating to die to snakes uptilt at 85%........

All that said sheik should be higher but not for the reasons SL said.

Meh, good point.
I still say our recovery is good. By no means is it god like, but it isn't bad in the least bit.
Usually if you SDI up you wont have a bit of problem.


Since Sheik dies earlier than most people she has the percent advantage past 100% and can Needle camp/punish with DA.
Combo's that work at high percents are:
weak Nair> DA
weak Nair> grab
weak Nair> f-tilt
f-tilt> Uair
Fair> Needle's
weak Bair> Bair
jab x2> grab/d-tilt
Vanish Catch> FSmash/Needle's (doesn't always work.....)
and of course you can always chain lock.
Not to mention we still have GR options.
They also will be spending some time over the ledge where we can do some damage to them at.

I usually do cross ups with Nair so you would be surprised how often you can get weak Nairs.
My fave is weak Nair> f-tilt> Uair. It does like 20%.


Nair is frame 3.


Yeah well pretty much everyone has a problem like that when it comes to fighting Snake.
His u-tilt is more powerful than our USmash tipper. -_- At least he doesn't have DACUT (Dash Attack Canceled Up Tilt).

 

[-Mars-]

So yea that Sheik character should be higher on the tier list.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Mars settle down.
I didn't mean to offend you. The only thing you have ever said was that she can't kill.
I was talking to people in general, not you.
The Sheik mains that I respect are like <3, Tristan, Ankoku, Judo, Rathy, you, Scarey, Armada, IR and I know there are others but I am rushing through my post.
But yeah, you shouldn't be taking insult.

 

[Judo777]

Meh, good point.
I still say our recovery is good. By no means is it god like, but it isn't bad in the least bit.
Usually if you SDI up you wont have a bit of problem.


Since Sheik dies earlier than most people she has the percent advantage past 100% and can Needle camp/punish with DA.
Combo's that work at high percents are:
weak Nair> DA
weak Nair> grab
weak Nair> f-tilt
f-tilt> Uair
Fair> Needle's
weak Bair> Bair
jab x2> grab/d-tilt
Vanish Catch> FSmash/Needle's (doesn't always work.....)
and of course you can always chain lock.
Not to mention we still have GR options.
They also will be spending some time over the ledge where we can do some damage to them at.

I usually do cross ups with Nair so you would be surprised how often you can get weak Nairs.
My fave is weak Nair> f-tilt> Uair. It does like 20%.



Nair is frame 3.


Yeah well pretty much everyone has a problem like that when it comes to fighting Snake.
His u-tilt is more powerful than our USmash tipper. -_- At least he doesn't have DACUT (Dash Attack Canceled Up Tilt).

The first statement is flawed logic. I get what you are saying in that above 100% we are living longer than we should so we have a percent advantage but in the end our opponent is still going to live longer than us and the fact that some character like snake and DK (i know i used extreme examples) live almost 100 dmg longer than we do on average we would need to catch up to their average dying percent because we are not going to kill them much ealier than they are used to living.

Aside from that you make alot of good points people will try and kill sheik if she is anywhere near 120% and this may cause ur opponent to try to force kills which is never good.

Ur strings are interesting and viable but keep in mind some of them are strings and not combos ie fair to needles can be teched.

Huh you are right sorry i was under the impression Nair hit on frame 5. I think that was in the last frame data but at least it makes sense that Dsmash isnt our second fastest move.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Aside from that you make alot of good points people will try and kill sheik if she is anywhere near 120% and this may cause ur opponent to try to force kills which is never good.

Ur strings are interesting and viable but keep in mind some of them are strings and not combos ie fair to needles can be teched.

Huh you are right sorry i was under the impression Nair hit on frame 5. I think that was in the last frame data but at least it makes sense that Dsmash isnt our second fastest move.

In this match I tried to predict my opponent's kill moves and survived way longer than I should have: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU-8wFdhSkA That said, my opponent's rarely lose their focus like that. It happens more when it is the last stock for some reason though.

You are think of the wrong Fair> Needle's.
This Fair Needle's is used 30 or 40% higher than the lock set up. It also isn't a true combo but you can punish anything they do. You can also do Bair> Needle's.

I try and base my up close game on Nair and jab's. Nair for cross ups and jab for everything else.
That way I am focusing on moves that are 2 and 3 frames. Once I have gotten them away I can then use my spacing moves. This includes Bair and f-tilt. F-tilt can be gotten up close by landing a weak Nair. Also, Nair OoS is good up close. DA OoS is a good punishing tool and it allows us to punish Marth for using Fair on our shield.
^Follow this and your Sheik will be bloody fast.

 

[DanGR]

His u-tilt is more powerful than our USmash tipper. -_-

That doesn't sound right. Well, what do I know?

Anyways, I'd say our #1 problem is killing, then dealing with her recovery IMO, and then something most people tend to underrate the importance of- having a fast horizontal air speed to work with, which she is lacking in at 9th worst in the game, IIRC.

Her low airspeed makes her more susceptible to juggles and thereby her job recovering as more than a partial result. The fact that she doesn't have any good ways to protect her underside (all of the characters below her in the air speed category have SOMETHING decent to help them deal with this), her fall speed (while it does help in some areas, it hurts her in other ways), and her subpar recovery moves all emphasize this problem.

If only she had an average air speed. ;/

@Saviors- I don't know what that was earlier, but it definitely didn't sound like any motivational speech I've ever heard.

 

[saviorslegacy]

That doesn't sound right. Well, what do I know?

Anyways, I'd say our #1 problem is killing, then dealing with her recovery IMO, and then something most people tend to underrate the importance of- having a fast horizontal air speed to work with, which she is lacking in at 9th worst in the game, IIRC.

Her low airspeed makes her more susceptible to juggles and thereby her job recovering as more than a partial result. The fact that she doesn't have any good ways to protect her underside (all of the characters below her in the air speed category have SOMETHING decent to help them deal with this), her fall speed (while it does help in some areas, it hurts her in other ways), and her subpar recovery moves all emphasize this problem.

If only she had an average air speed. ;/

@Saviors- I don't know what that was earlier, but it definitely didn't sound like any motivational speech I've ever heard.

No, it's right. His u-tilt is just a hair stronger.

Good speech on weakness's. I have always looked at air movement as being our #1 problem.
I never have problems killing, never. Of course, if my foe is at 140% I don't have it set in my mind that he is to high. I only look at it as they are to high when they reach 180.

Meh, that was me being annoyed and being a *****.
If people wouldn't have quoted it I would've edited it out by now.

 

[Judo777]

No, it's right. His u-tilt is just a hair stronger.

Good speech on weakness's. I have always looked at air movement as being our #1 problem.
I never have problems killing, never. Of course, if my foe is at 140% I don't have it set in my mind that he is to high. I only look at it as they are to high when they reach 180.

Meh, that was me being annoyed and being a *****.
If people wouldn't have quoted it I would've edited it out by now.

Its good that you dont plan on killing people below 140 i kind of do the same thing. This all changes in the tournament setting however. when you are playing against a good player and its close and you have to work to make every move land and maybe they are Mk or snake and dont have to work as hard to land hits it gets really frustrating when you are working to rack them up to 180 and them not dying and then they kill you at 120 when they didnt have to try near as hard.

I realize that is a very long run on sentence but i dont feel like fixing it lol

 

[<π]

Hi I'm a good sheik.

Sheik does have problems connecting with kill moves.
Sheik does is light
Sheik's recover can be predictable when you are forced to recover from long horizontal distances.

Fine. tons of charactsr have these issues. marth, a big one I like to point out is falco. flaws don't make your character bad. it's a lack of good qualities and imperticular that character's options and ability to limit options.

Sheik has tons of options. and is amazing at shutting down her opponent options. Sheik has flaws every character does; snakes horrile air game, MKs weight, D3's movement speed. trying to pretend sheik's bad qualities aren't there won't move her up the list. it's about proving what her good attributes are.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Sheik/Zelda is the future. The duo is ranked low A-tier in both the Japanese & Mexican tier list. Zelda's KO power imo & Sheik's amazing ability to punish and rack damage up quickly, and learning how to use the two effectively is what will make Sheik/Zelda better. Sheik needs Zelda & Zelda needs Sheik. Simple as that.

 

[Dre89]

Sheik needs Zelda & Zelda needs Sheik. Simple as that.

No not really, in someMUs it's better to keep Sheik out, even when it comes to KO percents. But yeah obviously Zelda is no Ivysaur, and actually does serve a competitve purpose, just not in every MU.

 

[-Mars-]

I agree <3. I'm not saying Sheik is bad I was just addressing the question of the thread in that Sheik won't move up the tier list because of these certain weaknesses. If I thought she was a bad character I would have dropped her a long time ago.

 

[Tristan_win]

Sheik/Zelda is the future. The duo is ranked low A-tier in both the Japanese & Mexican tier list. Zelda's KO power imo & Sheik's amazing ability to punish and rack damage up quickly, and learning how to use the two effectively is what will make Sheik/Zelda better. Sheik needs Zelda & Zelda needs Sheik. Simple as that.

I disagree, as someone who was all for the Sheik/Zelda combo when Brawl was first release I've slowly learned that Zelda just isn't tournament viable. With her DI escapable smash attacks, weak camping game, poor pokers, and lack of safe approaches she just doesn't have the tools to play at a tournament level. Against a decent camper even with her reflector she is force to approach, against decent shield pressure she is force to push her way in. I've check the Zelda boards out from time to time and I've notice they are dying, and I notice most if not all progress is coming to a halt to Zelda. Now this is just my speculations but I think it's because she's done, Zelda has reached her almost max potential and will no longer improve but maybe a small amount over the years. Because of this within a few years you will generally only see Zelda mains either in bottom tier tournaments, small local tournaments and with Sheik. I also speculate that the reason why Japan has Sheik/Zelda listed together is because they already realize this and even though Zelda isn't capable of being used in tournaments she can still be useful just for refreshing Sheik move set.

The reason Sheik/Zelda is so high in Japan isn't because Zelda with Sheik but it's because they recognize how good Sheik is and how useful the potential to refresh all of her moves are.

edit: I'll also like to point out that unlike most characters in the lower parts of Brawl tier list Zelda actually had a pretty decent following. When Brawl first came out Zelda mains came out of the wood work and easily out number sheiks mostly due she was a female character and was thought to be good at the time. They claimed such things like Zelda was even better then Sheik in Brawl, a now clear joke but they did think that. Early Zelda meta game development went off with a small boom and since then has now died out meanwhile Sheik meta game continues to grow and will continue to do so for at least another year.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No not really, in someMUs it's better to keep Sheik out, even when it comes to KO percents. But yeah obviously Zelda is no Ivysaur, and actually does serve a competitve purpose, just not in every MU.

This.

Zelda does better in some match ups iirc. Like Ice Climbers. xD

I disagree, as someone who was all for the Sheik/Zelda combo when Brawl was first release I've slowly learned that Zelda just isn't tournament viable. With her DI escapable smash attacks, weak camping game, poor pokers, and lack of safe approaches she just doesn't have the tools to play at a tournament level. Against a decent camper even with her reflector she is force to approach, against decent shield pressure she is force to push her way in. I've check the Zelda boards out from time to time and I've notice they are dying, and I notice most if not all progress is coming to a halt to Zelda. Now this is just my speculations but I think it's because she's done, Zelda has reached her almost max potential and will no longer improve but maybe a small amount over the years. Because of this within a few years you will generally only see Zelda mains either in bottom tier tournaments, small local tournaments and with Sheik. I also speculate that the reason why Japan has Sheik/Zelda listed together is because they already realize this and even though Zelda isn't capable of being used in tournaments she can still be useful just for refreshing Sheik move set.

The reason Sheik/Zelda is so high in Japan isn't because Zelda with Sheik but it's because they recognize how good Sheik is and how useful the potential to refresh all of her moves are.

edit: I'll also like to point out that unlike most characters in the lower parts of Brawl tier list Zelda actually had a pretty decent following. When Brawl first came out Zelda mains came out of the wood work and easily out number sheiks mostly due she was a female character and was thought to be good at the time. They claimed such things like Zelda was even better then Sheik in Brawl, a now clear joke but they did think that. Early Zelda meta game development went off with a small boom and since then has now died out meanwhile Sheik meta game continues to grow and will continue to do so for at least another year.

Zelda can kill really early though.

Even though she's terrible, most of her attacks kill ~100% mark and she has her dtilt which follows straight into other attacks like utilt.

BTW, even though you can refresh your moveset with Transform, there isn't any point really because she takes ~5 seconds (iirc) to change back to Sheik.

 

[ADHD]

Because she sucks.

 

[Tristan_win]

Because she sucks.

No you suck with Sheik, ooo get burned for switching mains.

This.

Zelda does better in some match ups iirc. Like Ice Climbers. xD


Zelda can kill really early though.

Even though she's terrible, most of her attacks kill ~100% mark and she has her dtilt which follows straight into other attacks like utilt.

BTW, even though you can refresh your moveset with Transform, there isn't any point really because she takes ~5 seconds (iirc) to change back to Sheik.

Even though she can kill earlier with some of her attacks then Sheik because of her flaws you will have to depend on your opponents to make a big enough mistake for it to happen. It's not so much of a stretch though to knock someone way with say... sheik usmash, switch to Zelda and then play defensively until you can hit them with something like a dsmash or whatever and switch back to sheik for the safe kill. You wont be safe using Zelda because of her lack of options but the game does have a RPS system, hopefully you will get lucky sooner or later.

 

[smashkng]

She can't kill and gets ***** by Pikachu and Ice Climbers.

 

[Tristan_win]

She can't kill and gets ***** by Pikachu and Ice Climbers.

Ice climbers I agree with you as because of the cubes we can't camp, we can't combo them normally with the ftilt because there's two of them, and we don't have the kill power to make up for that like most match ups can, pikachu however I have to disagree. Personally I haven't fought a good pika so I can't talk about match ups ratios but I do know how to counter it's grab which is what really sways the match in it's favor.

Basically Sheik can just plank until like 15% and then she wont be in any threat of the crazy 90% chain grab. The rest of the match isn't too hard especially since we got a grab release on pika into dacus tipper but once again I can't argue about match up ratio really due I haven't fought a really good pikachu yet.


lol @ me defending Sheik.

 

[Kitamerby]

BTW, even though you can refresh your moveset with Transform, there isn't any point really because she takes ~5 seconds (iirc) to change back to Sheik.

Ask if you can pause while you go to the bathroom.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Please stop arguing over if Sheik is good or not.
If you give me a year or so I hope to be proving you wrong.

 

[Judo777]

Ice climbers I agree with you as because of the cubes we can't camp, we can't combo them normally with the ftilt because there's two of them, and we don't have the kill power to make up for that like most match ups can, pikachu however I have to disagree. Personally I haven't fought a good pika so I can't talk about match ups ratios but I do know how to counter it's grab which is what really sways the match in it's favor.

Basically Sheik can just plank until like 15% and then she wont be in any threat of the crazy 90% chain grab. The rest of the match isn't too hard especially since we got a grab release on pika into dacus tipper but once again I can't argue about match up ratio really due I haven't fought a really good pikachu yet.


lol @ me defending Sheik.

Man i dont know how many times i have posted this. Sheik isnt safe from pikas grab until above 50%! I have played quite a few good pikas and its about even without the grab with the grab it really sucks. I have played good pikas and pikachu is so fast that if they just run around and go for grabs and shield grabs all day they can beat good sheik players. I have tried to chain camp them and what not and every now and then it works but then you are still starting every stock with 50% not worth it IMO. I just **** them with zelda.

 

[Tristan_win]

Man i dont know how many times i have posted this. Sheik isnt safe from pikas grab until above 50%! I have played quite a few good pikas and its about even without the grab with the grab it really sucks. I have played good pikas and pikachu is so fast that if they just run around and go for grabs and shield grabs all day they can beat good sheik players. I have tried to chain camp them and what not and every now and then it works but then you are still starting every stock with 50% not worth it IMO. I just **** them with zelda.

Sorry I don't check out the match up thread because you guys give off odd numbers. Anyways are you saying that at say ...30% Pikachu can chain grab us to 90%?

..However if your saying pikachu can't chain grab us beyond 50% if we get grabbed out of the low % then psh, that's not too bad, Sheik can power though that.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Man i dont know how many times i have posted this. Sheik isnt safe from pikas grab until above 50%! I have played quite a few good pikas and its about even without the grab with the grab it really sucks. I have played good pikas and pikachu is so fast that if they just run around and go for grabs and shield grabs all day they can beat good sheik players. I have tried to chain camp them and what not and every now and then it works but then you are still starting every stock with 50% not worth it IMO. I just **** them with zelda.

Hey, you used my idea. :bigthumbu

Sorry I don't check out the match up thread because you guys give off odd numbers. Anyways are you saying that at say ...30% Pikachu can chain grab us to 90%?

..However if you're saying pikachu can't chain grab us beyond 50% if we get grabbed out of the low % then psh, that's not too bad, Sheik can power though that.

No, he is saying that he can CG us up to the 90ish% when started below 50%.
We are a fast faller and the CG runs off of decay. A Pika needs to decay that D-Throw some for it to work. He can get in that decay if your percent is 50, or below.

I just use Kirby or G&W (I mainly have him for IC's) for this match up.

 

[Tristan_win]

I should of done this sooner
Fthrow
Sheik
- 0% - 58% + regrab
- Fthrow x 8 > grab
Dthrow
Sheik
- 19% - 105% + regrab
- Dthrow x 14 > grab

 

[<π]

I still think pika or ICs aren't a hard counter definitely a hard match but far from unwinable

 

[Judo777]

I should of done this sooner
Fthrow
Sheik
- 0% - 58% + regrab
- Fthrow x 8 > grab
Dthrow
Sheik
- 19% - 105% + regrab
- Dthrow x 14 > grab

yea thats what i said a while back thanks for getting the exact numbers though i kinda forgot. But yea if they try the dthrow cg below 19% you can just footstool the pika. Keep in mind if they arent dumb tho they can fthrow chain grab you into the dthrow cg percents.

<3: It isnt unwinnable but i will argue that you have to severely out play ur opponent

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Even though she can kill earlier with some of her attacks then Sheik because of her flaws you will have to depend on your opponents to make a big enough mistake for it to happen. It's not so much of a stretch though to knock someone way with say... sheik usmash, switch to Zelda and then play defensively until you can hit them with something like a dsmash or whatever and switch back to sheik for the safe kill. You wont be safe using Zelda because of her lack of options but the game does have a RPS system, hopefully you will get lucky sooner or later.

I 'spose so. But I mean, Zelda's D-smash has pretty decent killing power. You might end up killing with it anyway, especially considering it's a frame 4 move.

Ftilt is slow, but has freakish amounts of range.

Utilt is an epic anti-air move which is imo overlooked for Zelda's U-smash.

Lightning Kicks are a bit of a novelty, but they do happen.

I personally find Zelda to be one of those characters who you are either doing some massive amounts of damage to, or you are getting gimped. Hard.

So imo, if you don't know how to use Zelda, it's a bit of a gamble. But if you do, I find that the payoff is pretty good.

Also, I find Sheik's killing power doesn't really affect her playstyle. I always thought Sheik was about getting the opponent offstage and fairing/bairing/nairing/uairing them to the edge of the stage.

 

[J4pu]

Ftilt x2> Dsmash separates IC's fairly well, and gimping Nana is one of the most fun parts of the game.
granted I only play sheik on wifi, probably a giant drop in IC's potential, but I don't think the mu is THAT bad.

 

[Judo777]

Ftilt x2> Dsmash separates IC's fairly well, and gimping Nana is one of the most fun parts of the game.
granted I only play sheik on wifi, probably a giant drop in IC's potential, but I don't think the mu is THAT bad.

Just don't get grabbed by a solo IC or u will take 82% via dthrow cg to fsmash.....The matchup is terrible.

 

[J4pu]

stay on the edge-side of single ic and near the edge, as long as there are platforms (FD should be banned) you should be able to outcamp a single IC and force them to come to you.
I'm not sure if single IC can BPG sheik during the cg but if not you should be just fine as long as you stay near an edge which also means more chances of getting them offstage.

 

[Bsrk_]

It's really not worth playing Shiek against IC when you have better options available_ I've been using Zelda lately for kills against certain characters and have found it to be fairly useful_ The switch works well against aerial characters i have found due to Zelda's usmash and utilt_ It's important to stay grounded though and not attempt to kill too fancy as Zelda_

I find this works well in some aspect to people having next to no MU experience against Zelda and the lack of approaches some characters have against her_ This has helped alot in getting the kill against characters i would normally have some trouble with or require racking up damage above 140%_ She kills around 100% so if the option is available then it's worth taking_ Of course this is all dependant on the matchup and your opponent_

If your opponent happens to work around the Zelda kill then it's always an option to get them offstage and make the switch to a refreshed Shiek_ As much as i try and avoid using this, sometimes it can catch your opponent off guard and work effectively in getting off a necessary and early kill_