why is it sheik> marth?

[Shadow Huan]

It depends really I mean personally I love it. I think its a matter of opinion.

This is because you play Sheik. I actually dabble in her too, and what I said still stands. As far as I'm concerned XD. you're very probably better than me so no disrespect intended...

This sounds like the deciding factor for better players rather than how a match up is decided.

You listed basic skills needed to play the game.

Uh huh... and we're talking about Sheik. Aw heck with it. Just about EVERY match-up is decided by skill (KDJ's Pichu anyone? lol)

I mean if you get a marth playing wildly and just throwing out attacks... you'll probably win even without zoning.

Just CC into everything.

Marth's game is far better than just throwing out attacks for no reason.

We are in agreement.

All of sheik's tilts can combo into fair yes....

It doesn't spell death for marth unless you get hit at a high percent.

Just DI away to get as far away from sheik as possible (At low-mid percents)

At high percents just DI up and towards sheik. The trajectory really isn't that awkward unless you DI down and a direction.

Uh huh... but every attack in the game is death @ high %. *Pointless argument* /fail...

Nah seriously that's good sound advice.

Listen to this smasher. He/she knows what he or she is talking about...

Well this is marth's game. I mean.. its not fullproof but a very general way of stating marth's game.

yup... add whatever you want i guess...

Personally I think FD is marth's best stage. I guess its arguable but you really aren't taking anything away from marth while taking sheik's platform games completely away from her.

I think the match is still in her favor though.... just not complete counter......

FD is an amazing Marth stage. I never said it wasn't. but on... say YS... a tipper at low % is death, and very hard to avoid. I just don't like fighting sheik on FD... that's all lol.

And come to a MM if you can! I wanna meet you now lol.

Maybe Pound 4?

@smoke and smash: AH... was that "chick" asian? i saw her around. didn't play her though. didn't play as much as I wanted to anyways... O.o

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i dont think FD is really that great of a marth stage. marth ***** with platforms, but chaingrab and utilt combos are pretty good too. FD is better than DL64 at least.

FD is one of sheik's best stages, because she is a primarily ground based character. the other top tiers can use platforms a lot better than sheik can, so without platforms she does a bit better.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Because sheik uses her ground based moves to combo into a Fair and platforms can help avoid that.

Battlefield is a good Marth vs Sheik for Marth... right? I find it better, depending on who's in control...

 

[Heart Break Kid]

Wow this thread is outta control lol. I admit the matchup is in Sheiks favor but its not as ridiculous as some make it. Obviously its stage dependant but I see it no more than like 6-4 in favor of Sheik. And I love fighting her with Marth.

On the FD situation while Sheik does have comboes that are hard to escape without platofrms your looking at it from one side. Marth comboes Sheik so well on FD after uthrow. Just use your smarts and chase. She doesnt really have any attack(i think) that shes gonna use while falling which leaves her with either double jump or air dodge as an option.

I mean in my personal experience I have the most trouble playing Sheiks on DL64. And Ive played against tons of Sheiks ranging in different skill levels. M2K,KdJ,Tec0,Reno,Vanz,Drephen etc.

I think the matchup is blown outta proportion. Most Marths dnt know the mathcup real well and just **** their pants when they get grabbed.

Edit-Obviously stages like YS and maybe FoD would probably be better because Marth can control space better their.

Lol and on the subject of Sheik not being as good on platforms...tell that to Reno or Plank

 

[Shadow Huan]

Sheik's not as good on top of a platform with Marth under her as vice-versa. (ummm... duh? Why did i even say that??)

I would say most Marths APPROACH the match-up the wrong way. Like you said, be smart and Sheik will look like less of a monster. I'm just still not that good period.

I like playing against sheik as Marth too. (though it can get ugly due the aforementioned not being that good @ competitive play yet...) the reason that I posted what Teczero kindly dissected was because the match-up IS slightly in Sheiks favor, while others where arguing this FACT... O_o

or saying that it was a 20-80 match-up for sheik, which is crazy...

 

[-ACE-]

Teczero knows what he's talking about Smokey. LOL @ referring to him as "above average"

Marths that have great spacing and abuse the range of his tilts, jab, and fsmash properly rarely get ***** by Sheik's approaches. 60:40 in Sheiks favor imo, but I really don't like talking in numbers. No Sheik player can sleep on Marth.

 

[Teczer0]

Wow this thread is outta control lol. I admit the matchup is in Sheiks favor but its not as ridiculous as some make it. Obviously its stage dependant but I see it no more than like 6-4 in favor of Sheik. And I love fighting her with Marth.

On the FD situation while Sheik does have comboes that are hard to escape without platofrms your looking at it from one side. Marth comboes Sheik so well on FD after uthrow. Just use your smarts and chase. She doesnt really have any attack(i think) that shes gonna use while falling which leaves her with either double jump or air dodge as an option.

I mean in my personal experience I have the most trouble playing Sheiks on DL64. And Ive played against tons of Sheiks ranging in different skill levels. M2K,KdJ,Tec0,Reno,Vanz,Drephen etc.

I think the matchup is blown outta proportion. Most Marths dnt know the mathcup real well and just **** their pants when they get grabbed.

Edit-Obviously stages like YS and maybe FoD would probably be better because Marth can control space better their.

Lol and on the subject of Sheik not being as good on platforms...tell that to Reno or Plank

WHAT ABOUT ME YOU JERK!

I like platforms too you know. I was running around platforms before Reno threw needles.....

Ok not really

I personally think its a lot closer than most claim but I gave up arguing about it .

Teczero knows what he's talking about Smokey. LOL @ referring to him as "above average"

Marths that have great spacing and abuse the range of his tilts, jab, and fsmash properly rarely get ***** by Sheik's approaches. 60:40 in Sheiks favor imo, but I really don't like talking in numbers. No Sheik player can sleep on Marth.

^_____^ Thanks

And I pretty much I agree with your general statement

 

[Heart Break Kid]

WHAT ABOUT ME YOU JERK!

I like platforms too you know. I was running around platforms before Reno threw needles.....

LOL I had no clue. I dnt play your Sheik enough to tell, and when we do play I think its always on FD...and you like to do all this slick stuff(lmao remembers the time Keitaro had that house tourny and Lord Knight did his Tec0 Sheik impersonation in real life haha good times)

I just know Reno took all his platform dancing stuff from plank.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I agree my statement was pretty general but stopping Sheik from getting inside is huge in the matchup.

 

[Teczer0]

LOL I had no clue. I dnt play your Sheik enough to tell, and when we do play I think its always on FD...and you like to do all this slick stuff(lmao remembers the time Keitaro had that house tourny and Lord Knight did his Tec0 Sheik impersonation in real life haha good times)

I just know Reno took all his platform dancing stuff from plank.

Thats probably because I can't beat you with sheik LOOOOOOOL

The last times I played you I'm almost 95% sure I went fox LOL.

AND LMFAO I sooo remember the LK impersonation I was laughing so hard

Yeah I agree my statement was pretty general but stopping Sheik from getting inside is a huge in the matchup.

That it is...

That it is....

 

[Smoke and smash]

Wow this thread is outta control lol. I admit the matchup is in Sheiks favor but its not as ridiculous as some make it. Obviously its stage dependant but I see it no more than like 6-4 in favor of Sheik. And I love fighting her with Marth.

I'm the ONLY one who blew this outta proportion, all the credit it MINE.


And Ace, if you consider teczero "zomg amazing" than that says a ****load about this community as a whole. You guys must be like super trash.

I'm telling you thick-headed people that sheik ***** marth on fd too easily. If you aren't willing to accept this, then I encourage everybody to keep picking fd against sheiks until you realize this. Marth has nothing on shiek on fd. Up throw and spam fair and uair own shiek? Dunno who said that. It isn't as easy as that. The shiek will di and jump up, forcing you to adjust.

80/20

 

[Teczer0]

I'm the ONLY one who blew this outta proportion, all the credit it MINE.


And Ace, if you consider teczero "zomg amazing" than that says a ****load about this community as a whole. You guys must be like super trash.

I'm telling you thick-headed people that sheik ***** marth on fd too easily. If you aren't willing to accept this, then I encourage everybody to keep picking fd against sheiks until you realize this. Marth has nothing on shiek on fd. Up throw and spam fair and uair own shiek? Dunno who said that. It isn't as easy as that. The shiek will di and jump up, forcing you to adjust.

80/20

I hate talking about my own skill level but.... since it came down to it....

I am not like a fantastic player in a sense like Jman or PC chris but I like to think I am a pretty high level player which is pretty cool since I live in Tristate (Like.... one of the 2 best places to play melee ).

Btw ... upthrowing sheik and making her jump is what marths want. Because in high level play hitting the person isn't the entire purpose of the game.

Its actually the reason I say its not as bad on FD.

On other stages sheik might be able to run on a platform to safety but on FD there is no such place to run to.

The safety is the ground and if you play a good marth like HBK or spam w/e. You can bet that they'll chase under you waiting patiently so they can react to sheik's non-existant ability to protect herself in the air from marth.

Also I play sheiks on FD all the time with marth already.

 

[Lovage]

since I live in Tristate (Like.... one of the 2 best places to play melee ).

the other being cali

ahh ****

 

[Teczer0]

the other being cali

ahh ****

Norcal and Socal are too cool

What area is Zhu in?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Zhu is in both XD

He's from NorCal and spends all his breaks up there, but he's in SoCal for school

 

[Smoke and smash]

I hate talking about my own skill level but.... since it came down to it....

I am not like a fantastic player in a sense like Jman or PC chris but I like to think I am a pretty high level player which is pretty cool since I live in Tristate (Like.... one of the 2 best places to play melee ).

Btw ... upthrowing sheik and making her jump is what marths want. Because in high level play hitting the person isn't the entire purpose of the game.

Its actually the reason I say its not as bad on FD.

On other stages sheik might be able to run on a platform to safety but on FD there is no such place to run to.

The safety is the ground and if you play a good marth like HBK or spam w/e. You can bet that they'll chase under you waiting patiently so they can react to sheik's non-existant ability to protect herself in the air from marth.

Also I play sheiks on FD all the time with marth already.

I live in jersey which means I don't live far from you. I have never been openly involved in the competitive scene outside my own group(we are **** good though, I know this by comparing ourselves to videos online). The point is, we would love to find some good (and I mean good) locals to participate in. I would very much like it if you would help me out with this.

Oh yea and about the up throw thing. If you are marth and you are able to position yourself under a sheik (via upthrow in this situation) you have the advantage, period. That is why platforms help marth so much. It sets people up for auto tippers and all sorts of gayness.

 

[Teczer0]

Zhu is in both XD

He's from NorCal and spends all his breaks up there, but he's in SoCal for school

Thats not fair, now I can't choose with "Cal" I like more LOL.

/Zhu fanboyism

I live in jersey which means I don't live far from you. I have never been openly involved in the competitive scene outside my own group(we are **** good though, I know this by comparing ourselves to videos online). The point is, we would love to find some good (and I mean good) locals to participate in. I would very much like it if you would help me out with this.

Well it really depends where in Jersey you are.

I mean... if you wanna play me thats probably arrangeable. Where in Jersey are you?

 

[Heart Break Kid]

I'm the ONLY one who blew this outta proportion, all the credit it MINE.

Nah your not the only one. Maybe in this thread but there are tons of posts all over the Marth forums where people overly complain about the matchup

And Ace, if you consider teczero "zomg amazing" than that says a ****load about this community as a whole. You guys must be like super trash.

Dnt wrry Tec0 is really good. He's not the one losing to random IC's in tourny who he'd probably beat with his 10th best character. No disrespect to the IC player but he lost to Chibo, someone who haasnt played melee in like a year.

I'm telling you thick-headed people that sheik ***** marth on fd too easily. If you aren't willing to accept this, then I encourage everybody to keep picking fd against sheiks until you realize this. Marth has nothing on shiek on fd. Up throw and spam fair and uair own shiek? Dunno who said that. It isn't as easy as that. The shiek will di and jump up, forcing you to adjust.

80/20

Ive been there done that. Ive taken Sheiks to FD and had FD appear as random for the first match of a set. Its not as serious as your making it. LOL at Marth having NOTHING on Sheik, thats really humorous. And as people have said before, if the Sheik DI's and jumps away then what? She still has to come down, she cnt float like Peach/Jiggs. Marth is in so much control and has alot of options while Sheik is on her way down.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Thats not fair, now I can't choose with "Cal" I like more LOL.

/Zhu fanboyism



Well it really depends where in Jersey you are.

I mean... if you wanna play me thats probably arrangeable. Where in Jersey are you?

Monmouth County. You? I'd really like to know where the locals are at though. Something to do every other week or so sounds good.

 

[Teczer0]

ROFL at HBK can you come over one day and play me in hours of fox dittos?

Oh and thanks for elaborating the hopeless situation I face against m2k

Smoke - I live in Essex county.

I'm sure we can figure something out later. Go to that south jersey tourney if you can for now.

I usually travel so I'm sure I can play you at least once or w/e.

 

[Smoke and smash]

We'll see about this weekend. If I don't make it to that one, I already planned on attending maryland. Oh and I don't mind driving around, so yea it should be relatively easy to set something up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth Sheik is 60/40 or 65/35 at worst, it's really not unwinnable at all, Sheik's approach on Marth is pretty mediocre when you really think about it.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Marth Sheik is 60/40 or 65/35 at worst, it's really not unwinnable at all, Sheik's approach on Marth is pretty mediocre when you really think about it.

Sheik doesn't have to approach if you really think about.

Yea I'm doing it again aren't I?

 

[Teczer0]

You really only have to get within close proximity of sheik.

At that point you make it so that Sheik can't throw needles at you.

You can force marth off of long distance camping but in close proximity marth can approach or choose not to.

 

[KirbyKaze]

She's going to run out of room to run away if she keeps camping, at which point she has to do something involving getting past him and then Marth can **** the balls off her for doing it. Unless it's like Battlefield or Dreamland or something with a monstrously high top platform.

So Sheik actually does have to get off her *** and approach sometimes, if you really think about it.

 

[soap]

I have never been openly involved in the competitive scene outside my own group(we are **** good though, I know this by comparing ourselves to videos online).

lolol what vids.

FD is marths best stage against sheik. One uthrow and sheik is ****ed, no where to go. best bet is DI'ing to the ledge or trying to sneak in some fastfall needles on the way down. being on the ledge isnt the funnest place to be against marth either.

if your marth gets Cg'ed or hit more than 1-2 times off grab u can't DI well.

lol at whoever said sheik is not as good on platforms as other top tiers. She has the perfect physics for platforms and is the best in the game with them. 3-5 frame ranged aerials that can be wavelanded off platforms + needle cancels + isai drops + short run that can be edgecancelled on platform edges easily and a bunch of other stuff.

FD slows her down. all she gains is standing needle camp fakeouts and such.

 

[-ACE-]

And Ace, if you consider teczero "zomg amazing" than that says a ****load about this community as a whole. You guys must be like super trash.

Lol, you're one to talk about putting words in someones mouth. I'm not the one that created an account just to spit false information and insult people, lol (not that it matters, at this rate you'll probably be banned soon). Too bad you're nowhere near NC, I'd love to mm your Falco or any other character you got. I'm sure you think Ganon is easy.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Lol, you're one to talk about putting words in someones mouth. I'm not the one that created an account just to spit false information and insult people, lol (not that it matters, at this rate you'll probably be banned soon). Too bad you're nowhere near NC, I'd love to mm your Falco or any other character you got. I'm sure you think Ganon is easy.

I play as a ganon actually. Don't get hit because I only need 3.

Oh, and I didn't create an account for any specific purpose, and I'm not getting banned. This is my first account here, and I have to say the community as a whole has one big stick up it's ***.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You play Ganon and you're commenting on the Sheik Marth matchup <_<

 

[Smoke and smash]

You play Ganon and you're commenting on the Sheik Marth matchup <_<

No my main is falco. I play ganon/falcon secondary-ish kinda. Do you honestly think that people can only know things about their main character? Play a variety man.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Do you honestly think that people can only know things about their main character? Play a variety man.

Do you honestly believe I think that?

All it means is that I'm more likely to question the validity of your claims, and look that much more closely at your argument than I would from someone who mains Marth (who I'd only comment on if it was a glaring misconception, rather than them just weighing Marths advantages and disadvantages in a proportion that I don't agree with).

Your argument is pretty much unsupported (or rather, supported with completely false claims and thus invalid) and you expect people to take your claim seriously? You said that Sheik can chaingrab Marth zero to death!? Wtf learn your stuff before preaching to others.

 

[Teczer0]

Roy ***** marth.

Why?

Cuz his sword is cooler.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Do you honestly believe I think that?

All it means is that I'm more likely to question the validity of your claims, and look that much more closely at your argument than I would from someone who mains Marth (who I'd only comment on if it was a glaring misconception, rather than them just weighing Marths advantages and disadvantages in a proportion that I don't agree with).

Your argument is pretty much unsupported (or rather, supported with completely false claims and thus invalid) and you expect people to take your claim seriously? You said that Sheik can chaingrab Marth zero to death!? Wtf learn your stuff before preaching to others.

See this is the **** that pisses me off. I never said that the cg works 0-death.

This game has been around for so ****ing long, and honestly I would expect a lot of discussion about it to already be understood. I shouldn't have to clarify every little thing so you people don't knit pick. You can tilt out of cg, I shouldn't have to say this. You can fair after tilt, I shouldn't have to clarify this either. And one off stage fair = stock, something that happens after a previous fair. Get off my nuts, this forum is full of sandy ******s.

 

[Teczer0]

See this is the **** that pisses me off. I never said that the cg works 0-death.

This game has been around for so ****ing long, and honestly I would expect a lot of discussion about it to already be understood. I shouldn't have to clarify every little thing so you people don't knit pick. You can tilt out of cg, I shouldn't have to say this. You can fair after tilt, I shouldn't have to clarify this either. And one off stage fair = stock, something that happens after a previous fair. Get off my nuts, this forum is full of sandy ******s.

See the thing is........

Lol. ****ing lol. bad topic. Dude, play against a good sheik with marth on fd. Your gonna get 4 stocked. The chaingrab/titl combos are just nasty. 0-death/near death. Unless you have platforms to save your ***, you have no chance what so ever in that matchup.

And the point of an argument is to go back and forth using facts and strong claims to back up your argument.

Otherwise its just stating your opinions...

 

[Smoke and smash]

UGhhhhhhh.

The post above yours is fact, guy. Dispute one thing I said about grabbing, tilting, or fairing. I said simple, and obvious facts that everyone and their mother knows, and yet somehow it's my OPINION? I'm just about done with this place.

 

[Teczer0]

UGhhhhhhh.

The post above yours is fact, guy. Dispute one thing I said about grabbing, tilting, or fairing. I said simple, and obvious facts that everyone and their mother knows, and yet somehow it's my OPINION? I'm just about done with this place.

A) Sheik CANNOT CG marth UNLESS marth DIs away. Or if Marth gets grabbed at 0%.

B) A large portion of high level marths rely on their ground game and CC VERY often. Sheik tilting randomly means.... she'll get grabbed most likely.

C) I hope you're not saying just do a bunch of fairs......

D) Needles aren't effective in close proximity. Its main use is probably going to used to draw marth towards her. Aerial needles are a lot weaker since FD has no platforms. Aerial needle grab isn't very reliable unless you're using it as a counter attack.

Sheik's SH takes way too long for that to be effective as an option to just randomly throw out all the time.

Unless you grabbed marth at like high percent they aren't going to fly off the stage where you can use such a linear strategy.

Even if you grab marth high percent you could DI into the stage and get faired. Then just recover very fast and land before sheik has a chance to edgeguard you.

You could also avoid aerial needles while you are recovering by fast falling under them and then immediately use your double jump and up-b.

Also marth's setups combos just so you know are even EASIER.

Grab upthrow chase under sheik with SH up-airs and fairs.

If they air dodge chase them and regrab.
[/COLOR]

All of sheik's tilts can combo into fair yes....

It doesn't spell death for marth unless you get hit at a high percent.

Just DI away to get as far away from sheik as possible (At low-mid percents)

At high percents just DI up and towards sheik. The trajectory really isn't that awkward unless you DI down and a direction.

Arguments against grabs why it doesn't make the match up 80/20 in Red

Because it seems like ftilt and fair are used often together..... arguments against both of them why it doesn't make the match up 80/20 in blue

In any case, I really don't feel like repeating everything. I already tried refuting your claims and the last time I did you just put my skill into the argument which I don't feel like to talk about because its easy to come off as too arrogant.

So I'll just let another skilled/intelligent player just refute your 80/20 claim.

 

[Smoke and smash]

Wow.

Saying that random tilting and fairing doesn't work is obvious and has nothing to do with anything.

I only put your skill into play because of what sveet said. And I actually confused him for you when I typed that. My skill was called out, so it should be fair game.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, he just refuted your arguements (again) <_< The randomly tilting part was just a little statement he was throwing in there, as you may have noticed he commented more in depth on tilts further down.

And to elaborate on that situation more, f-tilt actually DOESN'T combo into fair if you just DI away and uptilt's lack of horizontal range makes it a bad choice against Marth in general (at least you'll rarely be in a position where it would be the BEST choice). CC d-tilt is only moderately annoying and is easy to get around if Marth simply plays a more grounded game (poking with d-tilts himself, which outranges shiek's) or doesn't get overzelous after his aerials (simply shielding/buffering a roll or spotdodge after aerials and avoiding rising fairs). It's a change in playstyle for some, but it's by no means ****.

 

[soap]

what a troll

tec now u r just trying too hard.

lol at smoke saying **** about the smash "community" when he hasnt met the community.

i had more respect for pc jona's early trolling

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Gotta give it to Haley for trying though.