why is it sheik> marth?

[hamonyou]

i use sheik and marth and i was justwondering why sheik was a good pick against marth? i know the speed, but sheiks arieals lack the priority and range of marths? so i was just wondering what some of the reasons were

 

['Fro]

You should search match-up threads for this kind of question, but I'll answer in brief form. Sheik combos Marth very well, and she edge gaurds him very well. She generally does more to Marth than what Marth can do to her. That's it in a nutshell.

 

[ZoSo]

The short of it is that Sheik has a way easier time killing Marth than vice versa, mostly because so much is guaranteed out of a dthrow.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

marth's weakness generally lies after his sword comes out (during the lag). sheik can use her speed to bait and punish marth.

marth can combo sheik pretty well, but sheik's teleport isn't easy for him to handle. other characters can edgehog and punish the lag, but marth isnt as good from edgehog position.

sheik can do some brutal combos vs marth. chainthrows if marth DIs away, tilts to gayness from any DI, CC->dtilt/dsmash beats marth's fair. sheik is one of the better edge guarding characters too, and has many options. cc->dtilt->fair, sh fair, edgehog->dair->f/u/bair, ledgehop nair (trades with marth's upb) or simply jumping out and hitting him early with bair/fair.

edit:: oh yea, and sheik bair is around the same length as marth's sword.

 

[hamonyou]

ok that helps alot

who would be a good person to kill sheik, and would falcon be a good choice against marth?

 

[Mindgames Son!]

Spacies do pretty well against sheik( I hear Falco has it better?)

Falcon is more or less even with Marth; it is pretty much even( Falcon does better onstage then Marth does,while Marth does better offstage then Falcon.) ^_^

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falcon is not that much better onstage because Marth's really good at grabbing and then throwing them over and grabbing again and if they don't tech you can just combo them off the ground or duck next to him (if you're below 100) and wait for him to do anything :D

 

[Pi]

Spacies do pretty well against sheik( I hear Falco has it better?)

Falcon is more or less even with Marth; it is pretty much even( Falcon does better onstage then Marth does,while Marth does better offstage then Falcon.) ^_^

I'd say fox has it easier vs sheik than falco, juss because he has a slightly better chance to not be gimped than falco lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'd say it's because Fox's speed is better vs Sheik's shield and aerials than what Falco works with, but sure.

 

[hamonyou]

I'd say it's because Fox's speed is better vs Sheik's shield and aerials than what Falco works with, but sure.

what do you mean by sheiks sheiks sheild? is it better than other characters?

 

[soap]

marth can combo sheik pretty well, but sheik's teleport isn't easy for him to handle. other characters can edgehog and punish the lag, but marth isnt as good from edgehog position.

i think marth has one of the better edgeguards on sheik. Dthrow to edgehog/fsmash mixup along with ledgedash into tippers is kinda brutal.

this takes some prediction though and i have noticed extreme edgeguarding troubles from average/less than stellar marths.

you kinda have to be perfect, its not like fox's edgehog to hop up and lolupsmash

 

[Nø Ca$h]

the funny thing is, its not THAT much of a bad matchup. it is in sheiks favor, but imo its anywhere from 45-55 to 35-65. it IS considered a counter because its marths hardest matchup, but in reality, it is very winable. just pick a stage where u cant get gayed(is that even a verb?) by senbon. and simply dont get grabbed lol.

 

[hamonyou]

i think marth has one of the better edgeguards on sheik. Dthrow to edgehog/fsmash mixup along with ledgedash into tippers is kinda brutal.

this takes some prediction though and i have noticed extreme edgeguarding troubles from average/less than stellar marths.

you kinda have to be perfect, its not like fox's edgehog to hop up and lolupsmash

what exactally is a ledge dash?

 

[soap]

ledgedash is a wavedash up from the ledge.

u get sheik to commit on stage.

then wavedash up, walk past her landing spot and tip her back off. preferably before she lands and gets her jump back.

do this right and sheik is likely dead

 

[Lovage]

yes soap all of this works....but it is sooooo much harder to consistently do when compared to something like fox's edgeguard on sheik (stand from the ledge during teleport -> bair 100 times) plus at mid percents and higher, if you let sheik get on the stage and then dthrow, she can up+b onto the middle of the stage, or even worse onto a platform.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth may not be Fox, but you have some flexibility. It's easy for you to edgeguard Sheik offstage. Marth hasn't got a shine, but, well, he has his standard grab the ledge > bair. Moreover, you can waveland off the stage into bair/fair. If Sheik is coming in from the side, sometimes it's best just to wait and see how she chooses to handle the situation. If her head pops even slightly above ground level you can nail her with an fsmash before the poof. Or if she seems like she hasn't cut herself enough slack for distance, just edgehog.

Edit (pretty much what Soap said):
Also, depending on the angle, you can wait for the explosion of Sheik's up-b and then ledge get-up. If she goes above you just walk back a little and fsmash her. If she goes for a platform, you keep walking and space a tipper.

 

[hamonyou]

ok so forward smash is a good edgehog technique against sheiks laggy up b
but against other marths, when im recovering with my up b, and then forward smash how do i like jump of the side of the stage? i tthink you like DI into the side of the stage and wall tech but im not sure, ive seen alot of pros do it.
and how exactaly do i get a good DI?

 

[KirbyKaze]

what do you mean by sheiks sheiks sheild? is it better than other characters?

Sheik's shield game is actually okay vs a lot of types of Falco pressure and there's a lot of small tricks you can do to get cheesy shield-grabs.

Whereas Fox can just grab you if you try that, or dash dance until you do anything from your shield but wavedash back and then punish.

He's also better at getting around her moves in general, and punishing her for being airborne.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

There's nothing more painful then tryign to land on stage, watch marth waveland then walk a little then tipper your face as shiek.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fortunately, if you land right on the edge with the reduced lag, you can often trick them with this, or make them go on the stage prematurely in the future and sneak grabs on the edge.

The troublesome part is when they catch on and start doing stuff based on where you are.

 

[Teczer0]

There's nothing more painful then tryign to land on stage, watch marth waveland then walk a little then tipper your face as shiek.

Why would you say its painful?

There are actually a box full of stuff you can do to sheik after you force her to get on the stage.

Its pretty depressing as a sheik player.

 

[soap]

i saw umm whats his name.

lord knight.

he did edgehog, walked up and daired to reverse dolphin slash to planks sheik

 

[Teczer0]

i saw umm whats his name.

lord knight.

he did edgehog, walked up and daired to reverse dolphin slash to planks sheik

You could do this. (I stole this from LK too)

If sheik up-bs too close to the edge you could also do a ledgehop dair to dair spike.

You could Dair to fsmash

And a lot more.

Jungle - You're lucky that I didn't play marth long enough to pull these off

 

[JFox]

i think ledgehop dair to reverse dolphin slash is the coolest edgeguard in marth's arsenal. people should use that **** some more

 

[Teczer0]

i think ledgehop dair to reverse dolphin slash is the coolest edgeguard in marth's arsenal. people should use that **** some more

Eww you're gay.

Dair to dair is the coolest by far.

=)

Whatever happened to you maining marth JasongoesthroughtheentiremeleecastFox?

 

[Miggz]

There's nothing more painful then tryign to land on stage, watch marth waveland then walk a little then tipper your face as shiek.

LOL!

This is so true. haha

 

[hamonyou]

whenever i try to dair with marth i always end up SDing? any tips?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

uhhhh explain the situation? i assume its because you dont dj before or you do it too low so that it doesnt matter.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if marth's feat are on the ground, marth is winning. otherwise he is losing. kinda like vs CF except sheik combos like 5x better against marth

 

[hamonyou]

uhhhh explain the situation? i assume its because you dont dj before or you do it too low so that it doesnt matter.

ok,
first situation: fairing a different character across FD and then dairing,
but should i fair off the edge and then use a midair jump and then dair or fair in the and and then just dair, or should i fiar on stage and then jump of and dair?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

if you fair off stage and then midjump dair, use your first jump ( dont run off) first to hit them with the fair, then dair. (I dont understand teh difference between yoru first and second one, since you're in the air for both).


It's really all about timing. Don't use your DJ -> dair if you are like below or level with the stage, it's sorta hard/impossible to come back in some situations, especially if you miss.

 

[Teczer0]

Don't listen to Junglefever he is lying.

Okay I'm lying.

But if your opponent has awful DI and allows you to fair him across FD. Or blanks out for a moment.

Just don't dair offstage.

Simple and it prevents you from SDing like a pro.

 

[Miggz]

Actually, using dair off stage isn't a bad strategy...its just not really recommend when fighting a decent Sheik. lol

 

[ZoSo]

Don't listen to Teczero I 4-stocked his Sheik with Marth.

You can do full jump fair, double jump dair, up-B to recover or full jump fair, falling dair, double jump, up-B to recover. You can also do short hop fair, double jump dair, up-B.

 

[Teczer0]

=(

Zoso did indeed 4 stock me. I think he almost JV5ed me.

But I never said DON'T dair off stage. I mean if your opponent is gonna let you do whatever you want. Might as well just double jump shield breaker or soemthing.

 

[soap]

u can go a bit below the level and dj dair and recover.

use the control stick to jump, c stick down. this makes it like frame perfect consistently

then forward b, up b recover

 

[Dark Sonic]

=(

Might as well just double jump shield breaker or soemthing.

Hey....that ****'s actually legit even with DI <_< (if you tipped the fair). You just don't get to charge it lol (and it probably won't kill them Q_Q)

lol weird Marth moves.

 

[Teczer0]

Personally I think double jumping and hoping your opponent goes into desperation mode and fairs you so you can counter them..

Is hilarious

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i just run the complete other way and sit there. they get extra dmg for being off screen. i call it " the ghost projectile "

jk lok

 

[Smoke and smash]

Lol. ****ing lol. bad topic. Dude, play against a good sheik with marth on fd. Your gonna get 4 stocked. The chaingrab/titl combos are just nasty. 0-death/near death. Unless you have platforms to save your ***, you have no chance what so ever in that matchup.