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Why I'm not an Atheist

MuraRengan

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I agree completely, but it still does not address my question. How can we show that he was anymore necessary than anything else? How did you conclude that it exists and it created anything?

One could say "Everything we understand has a cause, therefore the universe must have a cause" a statement which clearly commits the fallacy of composition. When you say it is metaphysically necessary, you are essentially saying that god creating us is the only theory that makes sense. But it isn't. The only information we have to go on is "We exist", that is not enough to posit that we were created, or to further suggest that another being did it.
I never claimed that we could show that the Christian God, or any other typical notion of god was more necessary than anything else, and I don't think that we can.

Explain this fallacy of composition, I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. As far as I'm concerned, being created by some metaphysical entity IS the only theory that makes sense, and I'd challenge you to show me otherwise. Give me some reason to believe that the universe "just happened" and came out of nothing. It's an utterly preposterous claim.
 

Oasis_S

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I think using "entity" is where you're going wrong.

An event occurred and the universe was the effect. I don't think you have to attribute anything... even MORE incredible to that. Like, I dunno, tossing a rock in a pond does not make that rock a "god" of the ripples and WHAT HAVE YOU.

"But who tossed the rock?!"
 

kataklysm336

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I never claimed that we could show that the Christian God, or any other typical notion of god was more necessary than anything else, and I don't think that we can.
As far as I'm concerned, being created by some metaphysical entity IS the only theory that makes sense, and I'd challenge you to show me otherwise.
So you don't think we can show that is the case (god creating the everything we know), at least not anymore than we can show anything else is the case, but you are willing to assert it anyway? Here is where I believe you are going wrong.

Explain this fallacy of composition, I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about.
Everything in the universe has a cause
Therefore, the universe has a cause

Just because the things that make up something have a specific property does not mean the whole will share the same property. Example:

Each brick in the wall weighs 5lbs
Therefore the wall weighs 5lbs.

Give me some reason to believe that the universe "just happened" and came out of nothing. It's an utterly preposterous claim.
Refer to the videos of Dr. Krauss' speech.
 

crawlshots

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Everything in the universe has a cause
Therefore, the universe has a cause

Just because the things that make up something have a specific property does not mean the whole will share the same property. Example:

Each brick in the wall weighs 5lbs
Therefore the wall weighs 5lbs.
I think this analogy is faulty because we don't know of anything in existence that doesn't have a cause; but we know of many things that don't weigh 5 lbs, along with many things that do.

Either all matter and energy have a cause, or all matter and energy have existed forever. I don't see how, metaphysically speaking (because that's all we've got here), there could be an in-between. The 5 lbs analogy is an in-between.

So if everything has a cause, then the existence of a creator (not jumping to "God" just yet) who exists outside of time and space (having "himself" created time and space in which to house the universe) is the most logical conclusion to me.

If nothing has a cause..... then my brain just exploded. I cannot mentally entertain the idea that the same amount of matter and energy have always existed, and that they are self-sustaining, but not static. (This is beside the point currently at hand but I feel like there's a metaphysical contradiction in there somewhere. I mean, how was the fixed amount of matter and energy decided? It was never decided, because it's always existed. Wow... Not that the idea of a creator doesn't blow my mind.)
 
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kataklysm, here's some food for thought: since everything in the universe has a cause (you're not disputing this), what was the cause of the first thing in the universe?
 
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what part was disputable and how did quantum physics prove that?
 

kataklysm336

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I think this analogy is faulty because we don't know of anything in existence that doesn't have a cause; but we know of many things that don't weigh 5 lbs, along with many things that do.
The analogy was extremely simple, and you are right it isn't perfect. However, it does show what I mean rather easily. You are suggesting that because everything in the universe has a cause (something which is, in itself, unprovable at the moment) that the universe itself must have a cause.

So if everything has a cause, then the existence of a creator (not jumping to "God" just yet) who exists outside of time and space (having "himself" created time and space in which to house the universe) is the most logical conclusion to me.
We also don't know of anything that exists outside of space and time, so by using your logic from the first quote above God doesn't exist.

kataklysm, here's some food for thought: since everything in the universe has a cause (you're not disputing this), what was the cause of the first thing in the universe?
What was the cause of the first thing in the universe? What caused that? And what caused that? And what caused that?

I'm sure you can see where I am going with this. It isn't up to us where the causal chain starts, all we can do is gather evidence. The first cause as we know it now is the Big Bang, applying Ockham's Razor there is no reason to assert that the causal chain goes beyond that (i.e. God).

I am sure no one has watched Dr. Krauss' presentation on the universe and how it is theoretically necessary for it to come from nothing, or many of these questions would be answered.
 

Chuee

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Just because something sounds ridiculous doesn't mean for a second it isn't true.
Quantum Mechanics tells us that atoms can be in two places at once, two states at once, and entanglement (atoms can affect each others movement over any distance). Don't dismiss an idea because it seems odd.
Also the entire Kalam argument is a God of the gaps argument. We don't know what caused the universe therefore God did it.
 

Oasis_S

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I am sure no one has watched Dr. Krauss' presentation on the universe and how it is theoretically necessary for it to come from nothing, or many of these questions would be answered.
I did. Long before you even posted it. BD

AND, I agree on the god of the gaps thing.
 

GwJ

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Whoever is saying the "something from nothing" argument is preposterous, stop it.
 

GwJ

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That people should stop saying the argument is preposterous. They're saying that because they can't comprehend it, not because they know it doesn't make sense.
 

crawlshots

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We also don't know of anything that exists outside of space and time, so by using your logic from the first quote above God doesn't exist.
It's true, we haven't observed anything, which is one reason we're debating in the first place.

I see what you're saying but I disagree that my logic yields that God doesn't exist. I said that the creator, if there was one, of all the contents of the universe could exist outside of time and space, since the creator created time and space itself. (If "he" is responsible for all, or the beginning, of material existence in the universe then as a byproduct he created time and space, two ways by which existence is measured.) The creator would not be bound by the laws he creates--he is above them. Therefore, even if everything else in existence had a cause, the creator wouldn't have to. He would then be the "ultimate" creator in that you don't need to take the then-who-created-him-and-who-created-him-and-who-created-him problem into account.

edit: john! - I enjoy your sig a lot.
 

GwJ

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The creator would not be bound by the laws he creates--he is above them. Therefore, even if everything else in existence had a cause, the creator wouldn't have to. He would then be the "ultimate" creator in that you don't need to take the then-who-created-him-and-who-created-him-and-who-created-him problem into account.
Sure is cop-out around here.
 

TeSik

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you already see that like any of you already has his own idea about this topic, not moving it even the smallest bit?

...

i'd like to throw in a question.

if there was a final answer, what effect(s) would it have on your lives?

:phone:
 

GwJ

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It would depend.

If we somehow determine there is NO god (which is impossible):

I continue life as if nothing happened.



If we somehow determine there IS a god:
{

If we can determine it's properties, intelligebility, personality (if any): I will do my best to understand it.

If we can't: Continue life as I have been.
}
 
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what part was disputable and how did quantum physics prove that?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/vacuum.html

Basically, the gist being that simultaneously and spontaneously, without any apparent cause, particles and antiparticles can simply come into existence. This can be clearly seen in what I believe is called Hawking Radiation, where one of such a pair is sucked into the event horizon of a black hole, while the other is not.

BPC, calling this metaphysics is like calling what ID theorists do "science".
True enough. Then again, I'm too stupid to know the difference, sooooo...
 

Oasis_S

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Seems like the "god" that people make arguments for is never really the god they want to believe in. It's never Yahweh, just this.. godthing that's just kind of maybe there. If the argument is ever actually specific, and not some heady feel-good hippie thing, it's always dismissed pretty easily as bupkis.

Anyway, if there was ever a definitive answer, my life would be the same whether it was true or not since it never actually presents itself in life. Unless, I dunno, since it's suddenly an actual thing then maybe the military gets a hold of it and scientifically concludes the best way to appeal to this godthing is through licorice, and then there is an arms race between all the nations over who has the most/best licorice.
 

GwJ

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The reason people have such trouble with what "god" is is because the whole notion of "god" isn't a very good concept to begin with. There's problems no matter how you define it.
 

MuraRengan

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So you don't think we can show that is the case (god creating the everything we know), at least not anymore than we can show anything else is the case, but you are willing to assert it anyway? Here is where I believe you are going wrong.
I'm willing to assert that point through philosophy. I don't believe it can be proven in science.

Everything in the universe has a cause
Therefore, the universe has a cause

Just because the things that make up something have a specific property does not mean the whole will share the same property. Example:

Each brick in the wall weighs 5lbs
Therefore the wall weighs 5lbs.

The brick wall in question, though weighing more than 5 lbs, still contains 5lbs of weight. The quality of having weight is maintained, and will always be maintained. There will never be a point at which the bricks have no weight, given that the conditions it is under stay the same. Therefore, within the realm of the brick wall, weight is a universal constant, irremovable, and unchangeable. Everything that composes this brick wall must have weight, even if that weight is not the same, and even if the combined weight is different.

The flaw in your analogy is that you fail to identify a specific generality to all elements of a set. Give me any other form of this analogy, and I can present you with a standard that all members of the set adhere to, such as weight.

The universe, in the same way, adheres to a standard, a rule, of cause and effect.

Refer to the videos of Dr. Krauss' speech.
Ok look, I'd really like to watch those videos, but that's like a good 2 hours out of my time, and I actually have other important things to do. If you understand the contents so well, then just summarize it here or something.

Just because something sounds ridiculous doesn't mean for a second it isn't true.
Quantum Mechanics tells us that atoms can be in two places at once, two states at once, and entanglement (atoms can affect each others movement over any distance). Don't dismiss an idea because it seems odd.
Also the entire Kalam argument is a God of the gaps argument. We don't know what caused the universe therefore God did it.
Quantum physics says A LOT of stuff that sounds ridiculous. I find it pretty fishy, that science, the process by which we make sense of thing, gets more and more outrageous as we get deeper and deeper into understanding particles. I don't dismiss any ideas that seem odd; the entire idea of god is pretty ridiculous anyway. However, I stay aware the trends of scientific discovery, and the more things that don't sense, the more things need to be questioned. The problem I have with a lot of atheists is specifically that they DON'T like to ask questions. Like this post:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/vacuum.html

Basically, the gist being that simultaneously and spontaneously, without any apparent cause, particles and antiparticles can simply come into existence. This can be clearly seen in what I believe is called Hawking Radiation, where one of such a pair is sucked into the event horizon of a black hole, while the other is not.
Simply being able to show that the universe can come from the "nothing" of space doesn't answer all the questions of existence. You HAVE to ask how and why virtual particles function as they do. It's not enough to observe the phenomena and call it a day, science still has to try to understand why it works like it does. It must be explained.

Whoever is saying the "something from nothing" argument is preposterous, stop it.
Why should I? The only argument that has come to support the something from nothing argument has been the aforementioned link which essentially says that there is no nothing.

It's not that I don't comprehend the argument, it's that the argument is incomprehensible. The evidence presented itself supports that point, by claiming that instead of there being nothing, there are virtual particles.
 

crawlshots

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Sure is cop-out around here.
Seems like it, but I guarantee it wasn't a cop-out. I was trying to present one of the theories that seemed to flow out of the concept that the amount of matter and energy in the universe is fixed. I wasn't seeking to avoid any inconvenient potholes... that certain theory avoided a couple on its own.

Jumpman, and Holder of the Heel - I like disagreement, if it's constructive and minds are opened up. Please help me out and include WHY you disagree.
 

Holder of the Heel

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Well, first off, you basically said everything and was like, "Well, that's how it is." You need sufficient reasoning behind statements to back them up, or else they are meaningless.

I would recreate all of the things that haven't been refuted that I have said in this thread thus far, but that would be a bit tedious and redundant.
 

GwJ

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The universe, in the same way, adheres to a standard, a rule, of cause and effect.
The video you refuse to watch says otherwise.



Ok look, I'd really like to watch those videos, but that's like a good 2 hours out of my time, and I actually have other important things to do. If you understand the contents so well, then just summarize it here or something.
But it REALLY is a great lecture. I've watched it at least 3 times so far.


Quantum physics says A LOT of stuff that sounds ridiculous. I find it pretty fishy, that science, the process by which we make sense of thing, gets more and more outrageous as we get deeper and deeper into understanding particles. I don't dismiss any ideas that seem odd; the entire idea of god is pretty ridiculous anyway. However, I stay aware the trends of scientific discovery, and the more things that don't sense, the more things need to be questioned. The problem I have with a lot of atheists is specifically that they DON'T like to ask questions. Like this post:
Leave the question of whether it's too fishy to the SCIENTISTS, not theorycrafting forumgoers. I'm pretty sure that if the science community as a whole accepts it, then it's fairly reliable.



Simply being able to show that the universe can come from the "nothing" of space doesn't answer all the questions of existence. You HAVE to ask how and why virtual particles function as they do. It's not enough to observe the phenomena and call it a day, science still has to try to understand why it works like it does. It must be explained.
Why do we HAVE to know why the virtual particles come in and out of existence? That's a great question, but it doesn't matter. What we know is that they DO come in and out of existence.


Why should I? The only argument that has come to support the something from nothing argument has been the aforementioned link which essentially says that there is no nothing.
And the lecture by a qualified scientist that you refuse to watch.

It's not that I don't comprehend the argument, it's that the argument is incomprehensible. The evidence presented itself supports that point, by claiming that instead of there being nothing, there are virtual particles.
I comprehend it.
 

MuraRengan

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The video you refuse to watch says otherwise.
I'm not refusing to watch it. I can't take 2 hours out of my day to watch it. I'm a college student, with a lot of things to do. The earliest I'd be able to watch it is Saturday, but not any time during the week. So if you want me to understand some very important argument before then, then explain it here, or link me to a text version of the lecture.

Leave the question of whether it's too fishy to the SCIENTISTS, not theorycrafting forumgoers. I'm pretty sure that if the science community as a whole accepts it, then it's fairly reliable.
No, I will not do that. That would essentially be me putting faith in people for questions that seem incomprehensible. It's the same kind of faith as a religion. You don't know the answer, but this group of knowledgeable people think they do and you'll believe whatever they say. But scientists, to my knowledge, haven't made any claims toward it being completely possible for something to come out of nothing (unless it's in that video that I can't watch until saturday). In fact, from what I know, modern science disagrees with that notion. SypherPhoenix, who posted many pages ago, told me in a PM that the most accepted scientific theory about origins is that the universe was a singularity and started to expand for no particular reason, and that since the singularity encompassed all of occupyable space and time, there was not time before it, thus it didn't need to be created. Of course, I don't believe that, but the point is that it's radically different from the idea that something came from nothing, so now you're burdened with legitimizing your own argument against other science.


Why do we HAVE to know why the virtual particles come in and out of existence? That's a great question, but it doesn't matter. What we know is that they DO come in and out of existence.
We have to know it because in determining such a question as God's existence, a science based atheistic argument must presuppose that science understands or can understand everything. Simply observing the phenomena doesn't mean that science understands it. Science doesn't understand why virtual particles act as they do, they've simply observed the phenomena. But with that question unanswered it leads again to the possible necessity of an outside force that causes its existence and function, unless you mean to assert that virtual particles, with so dramatic and specific function as coming in and out of existence, exist in this function for no particular reason at all.

I comprehend it.
If you comprehend it, then explain it.
 

GwJ

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I'm not refusing to watch it. I can't take 2 hours out of my day to watch it. I'm a college student, with a lot of things to do. The earliest I'd be able to watch it is Saturday, but not any time during the week. So if you want me to understand some very important argument before then, then explain it here, or link me to a text version of the lecture.
It's the best example we can give of this concept. I'm not too sure if there's a text version of it. If there is, it'd probably be in the video description; might wanna check there when you have time.



No, I will not do that. That would essentially be me putting faith in people for questions that seem incomprehensible. It's the same kind of faith as a religion. You don't know the answer, but this group of knowledgeable people think they do and you'll believe whatever they say. But scientists, to my knowledge, haven't made any claims toward it being completely possible for something to come out of nothing (unless it's in that video that I can't watch until saturday). In fact, from what I know, modern science disagrees with that notion. SypherPhoenix, who posted many pages ago, told me in a PM that the most accepted scientific theory about origins is that the universe was a singularity and started to expand for no particular reason, and that since the singularity encompassed all of occupyable space and time, there was not time before it, thus it didn't need to be created. Of course, I don't believe that, but the point is that it's radically different from the idea that something came from nothing, so now you're burdened with legitimizing your own argument against other science.
It's not the same as religious faith when it comes to believing scientists. Scientists have authority behind them. They are people who are QUALIFIED to say certain things. And thus, when you have many people qualified in a certain field saying the same thing all doing their own individual studies, it's likely to be true.




We have to know it because in determining such a question as God's existence, a science based atheistic argument must presuppose that science understands or can understand everything. Simply observing the phenomena doesn't mean that science understands it. Science doesn't understand why virtual particles act as they do, they've simply observed the phenomena. But with that question unanswered it leads again to the possible necessity of an outside force that causes its existence and function, unless you mean to assert that virtual particles, with so dramatic and specific function as coming in and out of existence, exist in this function for no particular reason at all.
You're not really giving a good explanation. Science does need to understand something when scientists formulate a theory. However, the whole quantum fluctuation has nothing to do with why the particles come into being. It only deals with what they are and what they do when they appear/disappear. If there was a theory that delved into why it's there, then yes, it'd need to know that.



If you comprehend it, then explain it.
Yeah, no. There's a distinct difference between being able to comprehend it and being able to describe it to someone else. You're basically asking me, a college freshman, to explain what these scientists come up with. BUT, here's a very very very brief explanation:

The majority of the mass in the universe is the empty space between things. When examined, scientists discovered that matter comes in and out of existence at random. Given enough time, the matter can group together.


That's basically all I can describe without having to go into deeper explanations. I will leave that to the charming Dr. Lawrence Krauss.
 

Orboknown

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Everything in the universe has a cause
Therefore, the universe has a cause

Just because the things that make up something have a specific property does not mean the whole will share the same property. Example:

Each brick in the wall weighs 5lbs
Therefore the wall weighs 5lbs.
I may be wrong, but you using a physical property(weight) as an analogy for a first cause(not necessarily physical) seems pretty faulty to me.
/havent read past this post
 

GwJ

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I kinda agree.

Here's the argument:

Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence;

The universe has a beginning of its existence;


Therefore:

The universe has a cause of its existence.

Since no scientific explanation (in terms of physical laws) can provide a causal account of the origin of the universe, the cause must be personal (explanation is given in terms of a personal agent)


For the argument to be debunked, SOMETHING in there must be false. Can anyone point out the false premise/conclusion?
 

Holder of the Heel

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Murarengan, you are willing to say that scientists are more likely wrong with quantum physics than the idea of your illogical God making things logical, which not only are you less qualified to say anything on either subject, but you have less sufficient reasoning for any of it. And as I have told you before but you ignored it, there is such thing as quantum cosmology, so a lot of modern physicists actually don't disagree.

I find it especially quaint that you lack "faith" in scientists, but then go on to mention SypherPheonix as a legitimate source of answers. It is as I have said before, you simply wish to believe in a God, so you believe in the idea. I really believe from everything that has been said thus far that you deep down want to think so and it influences you greatly, because your bias is overwhelmingly obtuse.
 

GwJ

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People get to a certain point in their belief when nothing will change their mind.

I'm just glad I dropped out before I reached that point.
 

MuraRengan

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It's not the same as religious faith when it comes to believing scientists. Scientists have authority behind them. They are people who are QUALIFIED to say certain things. And thus, when you have many people qualified in a certain field saying the same thing all doing their own individual studies, it's likely to be true.
Likely, but not certain. In the past, scientists all agreed that the universe was infinite, but it's generally agreed that that's not true anymore. The possibility for the majority to lack understanding of science is very great.

You're not really giving a good explanation. Science does need to understand something when scientists formulate a theory. However, the whole quantum fluctuation has nothing to do with why the particles come into being. It only deals with what they are and what they do when they appear/disappear. If there was a theory that delved into why it's there, then yes, it'd need to know that.
Exactly, and for a science-based atheistic argument of the universe's formation without the presence of a metaphysical entity to be sound, the person presenting that argument would need to be able to answer the question, "Why do particles come in and out of being?" Without a scientific answer to that question, understanding of the universe scientifically goes back ot the unknown.

Yeah, no. There's a distinct difference between being able to comprehend it and being able to describe it to someone else. You're basically asking me, a college freshman, to explain what these scientists come up with. BUT, here's a very very very brief explanation:

The majority of the mass in the universe is the empty space between things. When examined, scientists discovered that matter comes in and out of existence at random. Given enough time, the matter can group together.


That's basically all I can describe without having to go into deeper explanations. I will leave that to the charming Dr. Lawrence Krauss.
Well, Dr. Krauss certainly was able to describe it, so it's not an indescribable concept (like metaphysicals). If you can't describe something that was described to you, then I'd doubt your understanding of the concept. But that doesn't really matter, I'll save my rebuttals to the argument for after I've been fully informed.

Murarengan, you are willing to say that scientists are more likely wrong with quantum physics than the idea of your illogical God making things logical, which not only are you less qualified to say anything on either subject, but you have less sufficient reasoning for any of it. And as I have told you before but you ignored it, there is such thing as quantum cosmology, so a lot of modern physicists actually don't disagree.
You misunderstand my premises. I don't think that scientists are wrong about quantum physics, I think that the conclusion that the universe could be created out of nothing based in quantum physics is wrong. If you want to bring up qualifications, then all of use should stop discussing this right now. Pretty much all of you who are citing science are merely repeating what you've heard from scientists, regardless of whether you understand it, have done tests, proven it yourself, or anything of the sort. You don't question anything science says, even though science is known to find error in itself and reform its discoveries. You don't consider at all what could be wrong with our understanding of science, you just take everything and agree with what other people agree on. There is a high probability that everyone here misunderstands many of the premises of quantum physics, yet none of you who are citing science make any note of that at all.

I find it especially quaint that you lack "faith" in scientists, but then go on to mention SypherPheonix as a legitimate source of answers. It is as I have said before, you simply wish to believe in a God, so you believe in the idea. I really believe from everything that has been said thus far that you deep down want to think so and it influences you greatly, because your bias is overwhelmingly obtuse.
Again, you misunderstand my premises. I don't lack faith in scientists, I lack faith in science as an ultimate source of explanation of everything. The rest of this post is immaterial, and you're just taking personal shots that I won't entertain.
 

Holder of the Heel

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Those won't personal shots, that was me saying that you are talking about something being capable of erring, and therefore finding it unworthy of giving it stock and opt for your lesser education about the subject and your own God argument you have provided even less understanding of then scientists have empirically proven of with their own fields. That my friend, is not something personally wrong with you, that is just a common mistake, and I suggest you entertain the idea, or else you're basically blocking your ears and going "La la la la I can't hear you" when people are trying to speak with you about something.
 

GwJ

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Likely, but not certain. In the past, scientists all agreed that the universe was infinite, but it's generally agreed that that's not true anymore. The possibility for the majority to lack understanding of science is very great.
Well, yes. BUT, they weren't able to prove it. There was a point in time where science was a mixture of actual science and philosophy. We didn't have the knowledge and tools to determine certain things. We do now.



Exactly, and for a science-based atheistic argument of the universe's formation without the presence of a metaphysical entity to be sound, the person presenting that argument would need to be able to answer the question, "Why do particles come in and out of being?" Without a scientific answer to that question, understanding of the universe scientifically goes back ot the unknown.
Again, no we don't. We know they do, and that's all that we need to account for for this specific theory.



Well, Dr. Krauss certainly was able to describe it, so it's not an indescribable concept (like metaphysicals). If you can't describe something that was described to you, then I'd doubt your understanding of the concept. But that doesn't really matter, I'll save my rebuttals to the argument for after I've been fully informed.
It's not that I don't understand it, it's that I'm not able to fully describe and explain it. Stop trying to make me completely explain an advanced scientific concept. I already know if I do that, I won't get everything in there or I'll get something wrong, you'll call me on it, and say "See? Science is untrustworthy."
 

MuraRengan

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Those won't personal shots, that was me saying that you are talking about something being capable of erring, and therefore finding it unworthy of giving it stock and opt for your lesser education about the subject and your own God argument you have provided even less understanding of then scientists have empirically proven of with their own fields. That my friend, is not something personally wrong with you, that is just a common mistake, and I suggest you entertain the idea, or else you're basically blocking your ears and going "La la la la I can't hear you" when people are trying to speak with you about something.
You still misunderstood my premises, so this common mistake you're accusing me of making is invalid. I haven't closed my ears to anything, I'm just capable of looking a step further when considering ultimate truth. Nothing that science has discovered threatens my philosophical argument for God, so I've really got no reason to contest what science understands, though it is still true that it may be contestable.

Well, yes. BUT, they weren't able to prove it. There was a point in time where science was a mixture of actual science and philosophy. We didn't have the knowledge and tools to determine certain things. We do now.
So you think we have all the knowledge and tools to understand everything now? The why is it that science has yet to explain why virtual particles and all jazz work the way they do?

Again, no we don't. We know they do, and that's all that we need to account for for this specific theory.
I'm getting the feeling that we aren't talking about the same idea here. I'm adressing, specifically, the requirements of a science-based atheistic argument. What is this theory that you're talking about?

It's not that I don't understand it, it's that I'm not able to fully describe and explain it. Stop trying to make me completely explain an advanced scientific concept. I already know if I do that, I won't get everything in there or I'll get something wrong, you'll call me on it, and say "See? Science is untrustworthy."
You won't know till you try. If you make a mistake, there's nothing stopping you from correcting yourself, and I gain nothing from calling you out on a technical error. I'm interested in arguing the truth, not making you look bad for making a mistake. If you make a mistake, then correct it. Otherwise you'll just have to wait till I have time to view it.
 
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