Who else is worried Brawl might not be that good?

[HideousBeing]

not gone completly.....read my huge stick thing......again. if bowser was able to shuffle back airs like DK that woudl be very stupid.

Why? It's range isn't great and DK's would still prolly be better because of its combo capabilities if both moves had the same post-lag.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

if bowser was able to shuffle back airs like DK that woudl be very stupid

No it wouldn't. Give me one good reason why bowsers back air is so much better than dks bair that it deserves more lag? Right. Dks is better, has better range, is overall better, lags less.

Dylan you just dont get power and speed so you?

Yeah actually, I do. I don't want bowsers fsmash to be as fast as shieks neutral grab. Dont assume things.

Bowsers arials MUST lag. His smashes must lag. give him a few non-laggy moves would be fine but not zero lag on his arials........not even the characters with the overall fastest arials have zero lag........

When did I mention he should have zero lag? Like you said, not even the fastest characters have zero lag, so in my suggestion to give bowser as little after-lag time as fox and the rest of em, would not even imply NO lag.

bowsers dair uair and fair are fine with L-cancels.

lol

But his back air is situational...and is ony of my least favorite air attacks

That doesn't make it deserve lag though. I think you're getting a bit too caught up in what bowser moves like in mario games, and less on what would even the playing field for him. Whilst I agree with you that it is extreme to suggest he should be as fast as fox, he needs a speed boost, he is just ridiculously slow in melee.

Like I've said before, stemming from the formalist philosophy regarding art. (video games, are art) the intentions of the creator do not matter, the creation itself lives in an entirely different spectrum. We need to think about bowsers moveset in smash, and viable improvement. Not bowsers moveset in super mario 64.

So i agree with slightly sightly lowering after move lag.....but, I would prefer I doesnt happen. Because even if they lowered it, faster characters are still going to be fast enough to punish it. Giving them a smaller window will not make a difference vs skilled players.

However, I can come to terms with you here, it is meerly a matter of opinion afterall. And your last point is pretty true, but kind of sad at the same time

Go bowser!

Thank you mookie/buzz for the support.

"swing a giant branch (as HARD as you can) and try to recover fast....."

Dunno what you think about it, but marth's tipper is pretty much the smash equivalent of a huge ****in branch.

 

[psicicle]

Well, in smash bowser's back air (according to what I've just read) is a bad move. The moves in smash aren't all balanced according to speed, range, knockback and damage. That's why some moves are better than others.

Most characters have a few (near) useless moves anyway, so to argue whether bowser's back air or whatever should have less lag, you need to argue that all his other moves are not advantageous enough, and to argue that you need to compare bowser with the whole rest of the smash cast because all of these things are relative.

I don't know enough about bowser or smash to make any definitive judgement on whether his moveset should be faster or not, but from his spot on the tier list, I'd say a little less startup lag would probably make him more balanced.

 

[Kye L]

I'm not worried. I'm a teensy bit worried that some things I really want won't be in (playable Vaati, worldwide online mode, Event Matches), but I'm sure the game as a whole will be great. Sakurai knows what he's doing.

 

[Team Giza]

edit- sorry that was spam

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I think it will be interesting to see how they handle Bowser's 'invulnerability after an attack'. Whether it's after a special move or even a move like his bair, I think it'll add way more feasability to him. It won't eliminate his 'slow brute' personna, and it could potentially fix his speed problem at the same time.

Also, wouldn't it fix problems with other characters getting quick atttacks in while Bowser can't even initiate an attack?

 

[Gojira]

Not making them flinch won't be as effective as it sounds. I can just picture people playing against slow characters now.

Here's how I think it'll happen, player B is Bowser, so he's slow, but doesn't flinch, player F is Fox, and he's fast [duh again =/]:

Player F: attacks player B
Player B: tries to attack through PF's attacks
PF: moves away
PB: misses
PF: punishes lag

Throw in a few hits from PB once in awhile and that's a match between a casual bowser and a casual fox. Please note it's not supposed to be in-depth, so I don't want to hear "PF wouldn't know PB is attacking so he'd get hit all the time". When I was a casual player I could see these things, that's why no one I knew even played Bowser.

I don't see the point of making character's flinch less if they're still going to be so slow that they can't land hits. I play Bowser a little, I'm planning to main him. Right now all I can do is punish, punish, and punish with a side dish of punish and a punish mocha latte. If I even try to go offensive I get hit before the move even comes out.

I also play Ganon, he's weaker than Bowser but at least he can hit people. The least they can do is weaker Bowser and speed him up a bit, he moves aren't even NEAR strong enough to justify his speed. For example, his upsmash is weaker than Fox's and Pikachu's, that's sad when you think about it.

I main Bowser as you probably know. Hunderd i mean hunderd of times playins vs fast characters i try to space and time bowsers moves as best i can. Good foxes will use nairs, fairs, jabs, bairs, drills wich stop ANY bowser moves and start a combo vs him. If you where to add in a no flinching factor, i would have won thousands of matches I have lost. Now when you know he wont flinch during some moves allows you to abuse it more accordingly....

also, ganon is NOT weaker then bowser.



To dylan......bowser is a S-L-O-W character......by you saying he shoudl be able to shuffle his bair like dks confirms you dont know speed vs power. about you laughing and bowsers dair and uair having no lag with L-cancel....that shows you know nothing about Bowser. Again for the 100th time, Bowser must have lag MUST. he is SLOW NOT FAST, why cant you understand this? Ask gimpyfish, ask Caotic, ask arash. ALL bowser players agree he should not be given a huge speed boost to help balance him. HIm not flinching during moves and make you amke fox try to start combo only to see bowser NOT flinch and trade a F-smash for a Nair.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Gojira, Bowser is slow, yes - but it doesn't mean he shouldn't have techniques to speed him up *slightly*.

It's not fair that a fast player can get attacks in on him before he can perform anything. There's no point in being a slow, hard-hitter, if you can touch your enemy.

HIm not flinching during moves and make you amke fox try to start combo only to see bowser NOT flinch and trade a F-smash for a Nair.

I have no idea what the f*** you just said.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

If Bowser becomes immune to weak hits, he will be a force to be reckoned with. Giving bowser more speed or less lag is not the answer. A little bit of both would be nice, but it cannot be the focus of his improvements. Doing so implies that making Bowser better means making him more like Fox or Captain Falcon. Bowser needs to have his own advantages that keep him unique yet competitive. If Bowser only budges when Fox uses a smash attack then it would be a relatively fair fight since Bowser can use jabs or tilts that are as strong if not stronger than Fox's smashes. Melee's Bowser had problems because he would flinch at even the weakest jab, so speed was all that mattered. Hopefully for Brawl, Sakurai will change the game so "speed helps" instead of "speed dominates".

 

[MookieRah]

Every slow character should have *at least* a small arsenal of extremely quick attacks. For the current Bowser he has fair, f-tilt, and fortress. This covers him pretty well in the air, and especially on the ground. According to Gojira though, these moves should all be laggy.

When you think about it though, it becomes apparent that for Bowser to be able to really compete, he needs to maintain at least the amount of quick attacks he has, but also have all of his slow power moves actually worth the tradeoff in speed for power. Someone mentioned that Pika's and Fox's upsmashes are more powerful than Bowser's, and I second that there is something wrong there. I'm not saying that Bowser should have the strongest upsmash in the game, but it should definitely at least be 2nd or 3rd, and it should have other properties that make it extremely deady (I'm thinking a massive disjointed hitbox that covers more area than it does now).

I think, with the exception of maybe his forward smash, that bowsers smashes should be really strong, but not the strongest. I say that mainly because when you get down to it, Bowser is a big turtle. His defenses should be the strongest aspect. So in that regard, a whole lot of Bowser's moves should have the no flinch quality. I think his shell should also be a disjointed hit box (if it isn't already, I don't know the subtleties to Bowser in Melee). Bowser should be a character that thrives off trading hits and dieing at high percent. A character like ganon on the other hand sports offense as his defense, so his attacks should be stronger, but have less no flinch (and perhaps slightly faster moves overall, kinda like he does now).

With a little bit of tweaking to Bowser's moveset, a lot of his moves that were once extremely situationaly, now become quite useful. That combined with some no-flinching would make Bowser and excellent choice for competitive smash.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

What MookieRah said.

Brawl will be amazing if it implements these various subtle details. In Melee, speed was one of the biggest determining factors in how good a character was. Brawl can overcome this by adding more than just the no-flinch concept. "Fox is fast, but he lacks X, Y, and Z. Bowser is strong, but he lacks W, Y, and Q."

 

[Eaode]

My opinion on Character specific balance changes:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2723234

 

[HideousBeing]

They should make Bowser as if he is always CCing.

 

[Oskurito]

They should make Bowser as if he is always CCing.

lol that'll be too gay

 

[BigRick]

Also, don't you guys think that Bowser would benefit from having increased horizontal movement speed while he's doing his up+B?

I would like to see Bowser being able to charge the fortress for a few frames in order to move a lil bit faster during it, while having a lil less control on his movement.

That way, his up+B could be used for mobility purposes as a secondary option (giving him a way to catch up with faster chars, since stage designs in Smash Bros helps runaway tactics) but at a price: you partially lose control of your character and you become punishable... but at least, you're given a chance to catch up with your opponent

The improved fortress should also deal a good amount of shield stun, even recovery for both characters after a blocked fortress would be nice. Faster characters should run away or roll/dodge, and if they don't, then they will have to deal with Bowser standing right next to them!

EDIT: Btw I really like what MookieRah pointed out...

Making Bowser a power-type with more defensive features would nicely contribute with the overall feel of the char.

Then a character like Ganondorf should have the most powerful moves overall. In Melee, he can already land some powerful hits not because of the no-flinch factor, but because of range.

And DK should be more like a power/speed hybrid. A powerful char that is a little bit faster than the two others.

 

[chansen]

Bowser is pretty decent already IMO, but his b-air would be too powerful what with it being able to quasi-spike and his fortress could use a speed boost as well, other than that I think his speed fits.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

He's by no means perfect.

 

[Gojira]

Every slow character should have *at least* a small arsenal of extremely quick attacks. For the current Bowser he has fair, f-tilt, and fortress. This covers him pretty well in the air, and especially on the ground. According to Gojira though, these moves should all be laggy.
.

Not true at all mookie. Bowser shoudl keep most of his moveset. Dylan was aying, "lets make bowser able to shuffle his bair as fast as DK" I was saying keep his lag the same and maybe reduce it a bit. I want the fortress to return, and i want his fair to return but be more like ganondorfs or just stronger. I would not even mind increasing his F-tilt speed and add mroe lag at the end. I was just against removing lag from all of his moves like everyone said shoudldbe done. but the rest of your post is pin point accurate.

 

[psicicle]

I hope that ganon's u-air spiking capabilities stay in brawl. That's one of my favorite moves in the game.

Also, proof that speed isn't everything (but it is very important) is pichu. You need that speed to be coupled with decent knockback for it to really affect the slow chars.

 

[Pit 42]

I'm now even more worried that Brawl won't be that good with the appearance of 'Pokemon Trainer'. The stage will get too crowded to play on with 4 characters plus all the pokemon the Trainer is weilding. Yuck.

 

[RDK]

How are they going to work out getting damage and whatnot, and how is the trainer going to get knocked off the edge, etc? Or will it be almost like the IC's, where the Trainer is like Popo standing in the background and you can knock the Pokemon off the stage, or something....


Yuck, Sakurai. Just yuck.

 

[Killer Tree]

I'm now even more worried that Brawl won't be that good with the appearance of 'Pokemon Trainer'. The stage will get too crowded to play on with 4 characters plus all the pokemon the Trainer is weilding. Yuck.

Red is just a small guy in the background that doesn't move so it would be as if he isn't even there. So it will be just as crowded as 4 other characters.

 

[Takeshi245]

Also, I think that if you K.O. one pokemon, you have to start all over again or for every pokemon he loses, he loses a life. Anyways, the trainer does have weaknesses. The pokemon that he switches all have the same damage and have a stamina meter, so he can't stay with one pokemon for a long period of time or keep switching in and out, so it seems you have to be quite strategic if you're picking that character. And to think I thought it was Sonic...

 

[BigRick]

Pokémon Trainer, I really love the concept. Probably stolen from Guilty Gear's Zappa.

The name is really lame though, they should've just called him Red instead.

I hope that he's broken.

 

[Takeshi245]

Pokémon Trainer, I really love the concept. Probably stolen from Guilty Gear's Zappa.

The name is really lame though, they should've just called him Red instead.

I hope that he's broken.

Each pokemon has the same damage meter even if you switch. If you stick to one pokemon too long or if you keep switching from pokemon to pokemon, your stamina goes down. Sakurai has balance, so he isn't going to broken.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Yea, i really like the way Red was implemented. Even if u don personally like the character, u have to admit he could have been implemented worse.

 

[MookieRah]

Well, we honestly don't know how he's been implemented. The concept on paper looks good, but we really won't know till we try em out. I hope that each pokemon has a full array of moves, as well as being drastically different from the other two. It has the potential to be really good or really bad, seeing as how I doubt many characters could counter all 3 but the stamina penalties could make it harsh if one of the three characters suck and you couldn't quick switch out the ****ty one without getting gimped.

 

[BigRick]

Each pokemon has the same damage meter even if you switch. If you stick to one pokemon too long or if you keep switching from pokemon to pokemon, your stamina goes down. Sakurai has balance, so he isn't going to broken.

It has been proved in the past that Sakurai doesn't have a full grasp on the concept of balance.

I hope that Pokémon Trainer is broken.

 

[THK]

They should make Bowser as if he is always CCing.

So Peach players just gobble him up alive?

How are they going to work out getting damage and whatnot, and how is the trainer going to get knocked off the edge, etc? Or will it be almost like the IC's, where the Trainer is like Popo standing in the background and you can knock the Pokemon off the stage, or something....


Yuck, Sakurai. Just yuck.

It just floors me how many people don't think. You do NOT control the trainer, you control the Pokemon he sends out. They will each have their set of moves, with the exception of down+b which makes them switch.

When switching, it just replaces the current Pokemon, not their position or anything like that (that wouldn't make sense. Does Shiek get a position reset when turning into Zelda and vice versa?).

When a Pokemon is KO'd, a stock is lost (or a score is gained/lost for Time players), and they respawn accordingly.

The only thing I don't fully get is the stamina, but it forces you to switch incase Squirtle ends up being the best out of all three and you just stick with one.

All in all I don't really see the problem and the basis for these OMG BROKEN comments. It's three characters in one, or would you rather they take up space on the char select screen instead?

 

[Adi]

Yeah this idea is really unique and I'm surprised on Sakurai's creativity to include Red in the game, I can't wait to give it a roll.

 

[Takeshi245]

Yeah this idea is really unique and I'm surprised on Sakurai's creativity to include Red in the game, I can't wait to give it a roll.

Same here, but I'm not maining him. I'm just going to mess around with him.

 

[BigRick]

Same here, but I'm not maining him. I'm just going to mess around with him.

There's a lot of chances that he ends up being my main, cause I used to main the same type of char in another game...

That's why I want him to be broken lol

 

[_Phloat_]

lol I think so too.

I didn't really spent alot of time playing smash bros melee (a lil bit more than one year now) but I would really like to have a nice sequel so that I can be there from the start to discover strategies and stuff.

If they take out stuff like wavedashing Brawl might still be a good game. But what I'm worried about most is the apparition of a huge glitch/bug that would make the game unplayable. ^.^

startin from scratch

I hate getting onto threads late, but this needed to be quoted

I agree, I think that people need to realize that they may lose some tactics. I hope we don't, but I really think that we will lose at least a few

What is to become of wavedashing? We don't know.

But, Z cancelling was a glitch, but the programmers liked it, so they change it to make it less broken, kept the concept, and let it stay.

The problem is that wavedashing is complicated, and to me it would seem rather... not smash.. if they made it one button press..

There is always the chance that they just ignore it, and leave it in *Prays*

 

[Chromeless]

I hate getting onto threads late, but this needed to be quoted

I agree, I think that people need to realize that they may lose some tactics. I hope we don't, but I really think that we will lose at least a few

What is to become of wavedashing? We don't know.

But, Z cancelling was a glitch, but the programmers liked it, so they change it to make it less broken, kept the concept, and let it stay.

The problem is that wavedashing is complicated, and to me it would seem rather... not smash.. if they made it one button press..

There is always the chance that they just ignore it, and leave it in *Prays*

Likewise, I'm fine if wavedashing is 'cleaned up' in its implimentation and could be done with a single button press + direction, I really don't see any reason for them not to leave it in...I mean they know **** well that tons of people will comain if it is left out and that tons of people will likewise complain if it is left in "as a glitch" so the most logical solution would be to program it into the 'official rules' of the game and make it more accessable.

 

[psicicle]

how can you purposefully leave something in but have it still be a glitch?

 

[RDK]

Likewise, I'm fine if wavedashing is 'cleaned up' in its implimentation and could be done with a single button press + direction, I really don't see any reason for them not to leave it in...I mean they know **** well that tons of people will comain if it is left out and that tons of people will likewise complain if it is left in "as a glitch" so the most logical solution would be to program it into the 'official rules' of the game and make it more accessable.

Making a button just for WDing is just cheapening the effort it takes to learn how to do it.

Stop being such a lazy scrub, and do what it takes to win.

Jesus, I've had enough of you people. That argument just gets tired after a while.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

I thought I posted my thought here before.. Or was it the other one.. Hmm...

Well I have high expectations for this game and I expect it to be completely awesome.

The thing is I haven't played out Melee to the fullest or even the original like some of you have. So I still haven't gotten all of my kicks out of this title yet. So I will be able to tweak on this game for a while.

Also with all of the new stuff I'll be experimenting with its going to be an interesting holiday I'll tell you that much

-Onyx

 

[Xanderous]

Yeah, it's really not that difficult to pull off. I wouldn't care one way or the other.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

if you find wavedashing difficult, you'll never beat a decent player. Not because you cant wavedash, but because you quite clearly suck at smash.

 

[THK]

if you find wavedashing difficult, you'll never beat a decent player. Not because you cant wavedash, but because you quite clearly suck at smash.

That's a bit unjustly. I've come across 2 players that function well without wavedashing, simply cause they cannot do it. Do they suck? Hardly, they have every other important technique down.

Their fingers just don't allow wavedashing to happen, so they don't do it. They're walkers anyway.