Who else is worried Brawl might not be that good?

[Dylan_Tnga]

I hear much of the concern of Nintendo catering to casual gamers, women, and senior citizens. Please understand that that is nothing more than an initial strategy to spread the Wii to a larger audience. We are not going to receive a kiddy version of Metroid Prime 3 "designed to entertain the whole happy family". The same goes for Brawl. Nintendo was smart for doing what they did, but they will not forget their roots. Brawl will have enough functions to appeal to both casual players and competitive players.

I find reading this comforting because it makes logical sense. I just pray to god you're right and video games are still challenging.

 

[Joe Soup]

I find reading this comforting because it makes logical sense. I just pray to god you're right and video games are still challenging.

I don't necessarily agree with this new campaign Nintendo is pushing with the Wii. About how it's geared for "everyone".

Video games are not for everyone. They're for gamers. And for some reason they think they can go out and convert everyone into video-game-loving happytards, who dance around all day and play Warioware and Wii Sports every waking moment.

Don't get me wrong--there's a time for "everyone-geared" games. Like games you can play with your younger siblings, just for a few laughs. But if Sakurai thinks he can do the same thing with Smash, I will be disappointed in the extreme.

However, I think Sakurai will do a good job tending to both sides of the fence with Brawl. Just my thoughts.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

If Brawl does not have Samurai Jack as a playable character, I am not buying it.

 

[HideousBeing]

Whatd you guys think of pits final smash? I found the cupid dudes looked creepy and stuff, but the godess was epic. Seems like the beedril pokemon attack.

Exactly my feelings.

We are not going to receive a kiddy version of Metroid Prime 3 "designed to entertain the whole happy family".

That just made me laugh. How they would do that with Metroid Prime I have no idea. But the advertisements would surely be a laugh.

 

[BigRick]

Don't get me wrong--there's a time for "everyone-geared" games. Like games you can play with your younger siblings, just for a few laughs. But if Sakurai thinks he can do the same thing with Smash, I will be disappointed in the extreme.

However, I think Sakurai will do a good job tending to both sides of the fence with Brawl. Just my thoughts.

Well... our friend Reggie said at E3 that Smash Brawl was for the hardcore, so I guess that he won't let us down on that one.

 

[Red Exodus]

I'm not sure what to think of what Reggie says. In the Mario Kart Wii conference he said something like, "a new person can pick up the controller and battle head to head with a veteran". Maybe he just said that poorly, or in a way to try to get new people to buy the game but if that's his idea of hardcore then Brawl won't be ever hardcore.

 

[cyberdemon]

Well... our friend Reggie said at E3 that Smash Brawl was for the hardcore, so I guess that he won't let us down on that one.

I don't remember him saying that. All I remember is, he said "this is gonna be the best smash game ever".
And he could be right, but then again, take a look at the current Wii game library.

IMO, more than 50% of Wii games are either party games or minigames. That won't be the case with brawl, but remember that they're trying to make games more "noob friendly".
I'm not sure if the nintendo strategy of targeting all audiences will work against them in the long run.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

And you don't even have to do anything!

Ok, sure this applies to an item. But I've seen phrases like this popping up on smashbros, and they're starting to worry me

Ive decided to go easier on the button pressing this time

Dunno what that one means, becasue smash is timing moreso than it is button spam. But listen to how LOUD gamecube controllers are when you're playing smash (properly)

Maybe he's trying to make it so that the game itself requires less inputs? Who knows?

Youd think sakurai would acknowledge us, the real smash players, in an update about wavedashing or something like shorthopping or teching. The guy made the friggin' game as complicated as it is, even ssb64 is incredibly technical.

Whilst competitive may not be the majority, they are the elites at controlling their characters. We deserve at least one update geared towards us.

Also... ''how to play'' updates.

Ermmm... smashbros n64 was released in what? 1999? I think people know what the neutral jabs do, and what tilts do after 8 years.

 

[Adi]

Yeah, Sakurai has made statements like that, and at first that kinda bummed me out too but in one update he said something along the lines of "more than anything smash is a competitive action game" which gave me renewed faith in Brawl.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yeah, that was the most inspiring comment by sakurai ''More than anything. Competitive action game''

Darn right!

Please don't fail us sakurai

 

[RDK]

Gah! Kirby King closed the old thread. Good to see it's risen from the ashes.

Have some faith in Sakurai, guys. He did great transitioning from 64 to Melee. I don't see why he wouldn't do the same with Brawl. Although the Wii's "games for everyone" approach does kind of put Brawl in a tight spot.

 

[BigRick]

IMO, more than 50% of Wii games are either party games or minigames. That won't be the case with brawl, but remember that they're trying to make games more "noob friendly".

Well a noob friendly game can still be fun for a hardcore player.

You just don't need to exagerate (make it too noob friendly)

For example, Melee without L-canceling would make it more noob friendly, but it wouldn't change the core gameplay at all.

Melee without short hopping/fastfalling would be a different beast though...

So it's the devs job to know what is really useful and what isn't... A good dev will know and the bad dev won't.

 

[THK]

Youd think sakurai would acknowledge us, the real smash players, in an update about wavedashing or something like shorthopping or teching. The guy made the friggin' game as complicated as it is, even ssb64 is incredibly technical.

Whilst competitive may not be the majority, they are the elites at controlling their characters. We deserve at least one update geared towards us.

Also... ''how to play'' updates.

Ermmm... smashbros n64 was released in what? 1999? I think people know what the neutral jabs do, and what tilts do after 8 years.

I'd prefer it as if it were like every other fighter in the sense that we find out all advanced techniques out on our own and practice them.

Though I gotta say the footstool jump is sorta in that league.

 

[chansen]

Sakurai scares me and arouses me at the same time. Things like invincibility and footfungus jump can end up being broken, and if more than one character has said power, then those left w/o are pretty much out of the tiers. These things can go both ways...

 

[Gojira]

Well I disagree completly. Perhaps his running speed shouldnt be that fast, but the lag after his attacks is inexcusible.Reducing bowsers lag will do way more for him than unflinchingness during attacks, as he can avoid be punished with L cancelling.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Listen lag AFTER attackes is NEEDED on power characters Bowsers F-smash being a prime example.

A non flinching essence will again, allow bowser to be used as nintendo intented him to be used "trade hits" rather then him tryin a F-smash only to get jabbed by Foxs ***** little fist and have it stop the entire smash attack. Having the no flinching aspect balances it out just fine. Because now speed does not win vs power anymore. with this new addition.

You say "reduce after move lag" Why? Power characters are supposed to be slow PERIOD. The rule is like this....less speed=more power, more speed = less power. Thats how fighting games have been for all time (ok marvel vs capcom 2 is gay....*cough sentinel cough*) and it should not be changed. I will agree to the fact that bowser could be given MAYBE a slightly faster jumping speed, or make him have slower airials that actualy have knockback. He currently has two i use the uair and bair, but i dont even consider his fair to be a finisher, i consider ganons to be a finisher. Thats right, look at ganons, its slower then bowsers by far BUT has that much more power.

You cant ruin this rule it would be absolutley asanine. Bowser and if ganondorf returns, both need to be slow sluggish but have some non-flinching moves....period.

SO Ike having a non-flinching B moves or even if its regular, its probably only because he is going top be considered a power hitter. Its not stupid some characters wont flinch because they still take the damage but they (being slow) are able to use that to trade hits.

 

[Dr Mario Kart]

I'm definitely more concerned about the quality of the game if it is online.

I'd be proud to say that Nintendo brought us the first ever game that was built from the ground up to have online AND was competitive grade. However, There is not a single instance of this happening yet.

Street Fighter and Tekken were built as offline games first. DOA and Mortal Kombat were built around online and blew.

Its disturbing how many competitive players want online. When you're dealing with precision down to the single frames, you cant have even a miniscule amount of consistent lag.

Best case scenario is that only the online component is broken.

Worst case is that the core game is watered down in order to work online. You dug your own graves if the game is online and turns out broken.

 

[Oskurito]

(...) but the lag after his attacks is inexcusible.Reducing bowsers lag will do way more for him than unflinchingness during attacks, as he can avoid be punished with L cancelling(...)

I found pretty funny that you're asumming that L-canceling will be possible on brawl

 

[Adi]

Yeah I'm really worried about online for multiple reasons, one being that they water it down so it's compatible with online. Another is that they attempt to patch the game, either through complaints on their forum or through statistics gained online. A lot of times patches have worked well, but Nintendo is pretty new to the online scene and they might screw up things and might end making things worse than before..

/sigh

I'm really worried about it, I hope to god they don't screw up

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Have faith all. I mean, they didn't mess up on the last two did they? I'm sure that if anything, it'll be small things that we'll whine about and forget two minutes later.

 

[Team Giza]

I found pretty funny that you're asumming that L-canceling will be possible on brawl

It is a decently safe assumption. Lag-cancels on aerials were in both of the other Smash Bros games. A glitch in 64 and purposely put in Melee. However it has been quite a few years... who knows. Might not be. Well we can hope. Well if not just cut all lag in half for simplicity... Melee was much more balanced after L-canceling is applied.

 

[Gojira]

I found pretty funny that you're asumming that L-canceling will be possible on brawl

I find it pretty funny that i was not the original poster of that argument.......having that said.


It did return from the original smash and chances are that it will once again return in brawl. I am not saying that i know this for sure but, chances just point towards it happening.

 

[cyberdemon]

Most likely, short hop, fast fall and l-cancel will remain in brawl.

There's no logical reason for them to take those techniques out (Since the game engine is based in melee for the most part)

I don't know about wavedash tough, but chances are, that it will remain there.

 

[MookieRah]

Most likely, short hop, fast fall and l-cancel will remain in brawl.
There's no logical reason for them to take those techniques out (Since the game engine is based in melee for the most part)

I think these are about as definite as you can be without knowing.

Some people seem to be confused about Nintendo trying to dumb down the game for newbs though. It's kinda funny considering the history of smash. Both smash 64 and melee are incredibly simple games if you didn't dive into it. It's such a great formula, cause casual players can pick it up in minutes but it allows for someone to get really competitive with it. Someone mentioned how removing l-canceling would make it more noob friendly... but why? If it's a casual player, they don't have to worry about l-canceling. Most casual players aren't informed about all the hidden stuff, so it's not like this is daunting to newcomers.

You dug your own graves if the game is online and turns out broken.

Brawl isn't being made as an online party/fighting game. It's being made as a party/fighting game WITH online play. They won't dumb down the gameplay for lag, cause honestly, dumbing it down still wouldn't fix the problem. Lag is lag, and it comes in spikes, you just have to deal with it and move on. The good smashers won't give a **** about online play rankings or winning/losing, for the most part it will serve as an excellent way to get in some good and diverse practice.

Listen lag AFTER attackes is NEEDED on power characters Bowsers F-smash being a prime example.

I know exactly what you are saying about equaling out the speed vs power thing, but some of Bowser's moves are just too slow. I could understand a lot of startup lag, or a lot of ending lag, or a moderate amount of startup and ending lag, but Bowser's fsmash is just not forgiving in the least. You can be slow, and not be ridiculously slow, and it still balance with the speed vs power. I think they should reduce *some* of the lag on some of the characters' attacks. It would then make sense for Bowser to be in Super armor during the startup lag and not the end, that way with a moderate amount of wind down lag he would be in a bad situation rather than completely being a sitting duck.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I know exactly what you are saying about equaling out the speed vs power thing, but some of Bowser's moves are just too slow. I could understand a lot of startup lag, or a lot of ending lag, or a moderate amount of startup and ending lag, but Bowser's fsmash is just not forgiving in the least. You can be slow, and not be ridiculously slow, and it still balance with the speed vs power. I think they should reduce *some* of the lag on some of the characters' attacks. It would then make sense for Bowser to be in Super armor during the startup lag and not the end, that way with a moderate amount of wind down lag he would be in a bad situation rather than completely being a sitting duck.

You're my friggin hero. Ive been saying this for weeks but everyone keeps telling me resistence a la giant donkeykong is the answer. Reduced, or moderated lag is what bowser needs.

 

[Dr Mario Kart]

The development process is completely closed to us. We will have no idea if any considerations were made to the core game with the online game in mind. Theres just no way to know by looking at the end product.

I have a hard time believing that the two are completely independent of each other and have absolutely no influence on each other's development.

 

[NES n00b]

I AM BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and stuff. I got nothing. XD

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Welcome Back NES n00b.

 

[MookieRah]

I have a hard time believing that the two are completely independent of each other and have absolutely no influence on each other's development.

I might be misinterpreting your post, cause it's worded in a somewhat confusing way, but here goes:
I don't believe they will model the core game for online purposes. It just doesn't make much sense, seeing how SSB and Melee were both solid offline games and this is a sequal. If there were no prequals and this was it's first go, maybe, but it still doesn't seem likely that they would try to tailor the game to play online.

Strikers doesn't seem to be tailored for online play either. I don't know much about it's prequal, but judging from the game content and how it refers to classic mode, it seems a lot of things were added that requires perfect timing to employ. If they wanted it to be somewhat lag friendly, I don't see why they would add these features to the game.

NESNoob, stop being a noob, no spam! This is a warning this time, but the next time i'ma hand out infractions. Sorry, but i can't discriminate just cause you are a friend.

 

[NES n00b]

Trying to be on topic. . . . . . . . . .

I just came back and saw the new Kid Icarus stuff and even though I will play competative smash and will probably miss some of it, I like that he is trying to get all the Kid Icarus stuff in there (I love Kid Icarus). With all these updates, Sakurai is showing that the game will be good for casuals and hardcore fans of the franchises that are represented in Brawl. However, the only way we can tell if Brawl will be good (for competative players especially since no updates seem to be for them) is just to wait. I actually haven't been that worried these past couple of months. I am having too much fun with Melee as it is. XD

I am trying hard not to spam Mookie. . . . . . .but I am so used to the old thread. Goodbye spam.

 

[Gojira]

You're my friggin hero. Ive been saying this for weeks but everyone keeps telling me resistence a la giant donkeykong is the answer. Reduced, or moderated lag is what bowser needs.

Mookie rah is right for some part. Reducing Bowsers lag is a good idea. but not removing as much as you said dylan. Bowser still needs windown lag, he is slow period. If bowser hits his F-smash so what if he gets hit afterwards (which i doubt would happen). Bowser has to be slow, speeding him up is just not right. They could reduce the lag of moves such as the fair and u-air...maybe.


How about this? Grab a huge tree branch...swing it....and see how fast you can recover....if you coudl recover much faster then you shoudl that would be stupid. Now imagine while you wind up, nothing can stop you from swinging that branch. Only after wards can you be hit. Power characters are all about timing and getting those hits and trading back hits, adding non-flinching only helps getting the hits the power characters need. These characters have to be slow that is the point of being a slow character.


So i agree with slightly sightly lowering after move lag.....but, I would prefer I doesnt happen. Because even if they lowered it, faster characters are still going to be fast enough to punish it. Giving them a smaller window will not make a difference vs skilled players.

 

[MookieRah]

Giving them a smaller window will not make a difference vs skilled players.

Regardless of how skilled your opponent is, the less amount of lag after an attack the less likely they are to punish it. Even the pros don't punish everything perfectly, especially if they don't predict it.

 

[Gojira]

Regardless of how skilled your opponent is, the less amount of lag after an attack the less likely they are to punish it. Even the pros don't punish everything perfectly, especially if they don't predict it.

point taken but still.....

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

NESNoob, stop being a noob, no spam! This is a warning this time, but the next time i'ma hand out infractions. Sorry, but i can't discriminate just cause you are a friend.

T'etait cool avant

sorry, catchphrase I picked up from a friend.

Seriously though, controlled spam breathes life into a thread, specially when it comes from someone like nesnoob or yeahdude.

Luckily we have our own brand spankin new forum to continue the madness at, with (no offense to the staff) way less ridiculously strict rules.

Anyyyhow, with no new updates I have nothing new to worry about regarding brawl. Ill just respond to this lest I am off topic :

Mookie rah is right for some part. Reducing Bowsers lag is a good idea. but not removing as much as you said dylan. Bowser still needs windown lag, he is slow period. If bowser hits his F-smash so what if he gets hit afterwards (which i doubt would happen). Bowser has to be slow, speeding him up is just not right. They could reduce the lag of moves such as the fair and u-air...maybe.

Yeah, I was being a little extreme and realized my suggestion is off. Bowsers lag, however is just ridiculous. whilst he shouldnt have as little lag as shiek, there is no excuse for him to be so horrificly slow after attacking, considering he only has a few kill moves that actually work. No one gets hit by bowsers fmash unless some heavvvvvy mindgames are involved.

Anyway, startup lag for bowsers powerful moves is still needed, but its the afterlag on things like his bair, and dair that should just be gone completly. Even with L cancelling he's still sluggish...

 

[maxpower1227]

Ok, I'm a little late to this thread (don't come here often any more), but I just had to comment on this:

Youd think sakurai would acknowledge us, the real smash players, in an update about wavedashing or something like shorthopping or teching.

*sigh*.....

The guy made the friggin' game as complicated as it is, even ssb64 is incredibly technical.

Actually, despite what another poster said, Smash Bros is in essence a "n00b-friendly" fighting game. That was largely the basis for its appeal, in fact. Do you really think that pressing "B" for a special move instead of pressing "forward, down, forward, forward, B" is "incredibly technical"?

Yes, there are advanced techniques that have been discovered by hardcore players that require precision timing, but at its core Smash is the antithesis of a complex, technical fighter like Killer Instinct or Soul Calibur. There are no complex button combinations to memorize, no rock-paper-scissors counter systems, etc.

Sorry, I know this argument has been made ad infinitum, but I keep seeing comments like these >_<

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Yes, there are advanced techniques that have been discovered by hardcore players that require precision timing, but at its core Smash is the antithesis of a complex, technical fighter like Killer Instinct or Soul Calibur. There are no complex button combinations to memorize, no rock-paper-scissors counter systems, etc.

Sorry, I know this argument has been made ad infinitum, but I keep seeing comments like these >_<

Lol. You're wrong.

Health based fighters, do not even touch upon the level of technical **** going on in melee. MAYBE streetfighter 3rd strike, MAYBE. But definatly not KI, or SC, I play both of em, they dont compare.

In smash you DO have to memorize things. You have to know your combos, with your character, based on what percentage he's at. Not only that, but you have to memorize the various DI possibilities that can arise out of *EVERY* hit in your combo, and figure out how to chase each individual DI.

Not only that, but you also have to do mixups, or a good player will notice your patterns, and proceed to 3-4 stock you. Another big part of smash is prediction, probably the biggest part. Once you can predict your opponent you've won.

Not to mention the techniques. Infact, the techniques are the easy part. Compared to other fighters id say the ''advanced'' techniques in smash are easier to learn, but to use properly? way more complicated.

Smash is the antithesis of a complex, technical fighter

No way. No way in heck. Why else would there be L cancelling, teching, powershielding (frame perfect) , lightshielding, airdodging, among thousands of other character specific techniques like shine turnaround edgehogging, or ledgehop egg cancelling with yoshi.

Yeah. Smash is technical as ****, you just wouldn't know because you're not a competitive player.

 

[1337marth]

I AM BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and stuff. I got nothing. XD

Welcome back.

 

[MookieRah]

Pretty much like what Dylan said, but I will expound on it a little.

The beauty of smash is that it is newbie friendly, but at the same time is incredibly deep if you choose to go there. It's really easy to pick up melee and just play for the fun of it and beat the single player stuff and what not. But to say that Sakurai never intended for people to go nuts with it, and that it's intended to be a shallow game is silly, cause all the subtle things in the game that were intentional would still make this game incredibly deep. It's nice that there were some unexpected things to come out of the game, but even without it, Sakurai put in enough stuff to allow for a healthy tournament scene.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Dylan is 100% correct. While Smash does have simple aspects to it (single button special moves), the top level of play is extremely complicated. How many other games cause opponents to react different based on the amount of damage they have sustained? Heck, aside from all that, how many fighters allow you to run freely around the stage? I absolutely hate fighting games where the two players are forced to face each other. Sadly, that is like 99% of fighting games. This is exactly why I like other games like Little Fighter 2 because freedom of movement owns!

 

[Gojira]

T'etait cool avant

sorry, catchphrase I picked up from a friend.

Seriously though, controlled spam breathes life into a thread, specially when it comes from someone like nesnoob or yeahdude.

Luckily we have our own brand spankin new forum to continue the madness at, with (no offense to the staff) way less ridiculously strict rules.

Anyyyhow, with no new updates I have nothing new to worry about regarding brawl. Ill just respond to this lest I am off topic :



Yeah, I was being a little extreme and realized my suggestion is off. Bowsers lag, however is just ridiculous. whilst he shouldnt have as little lag as shiek, there is no excuse for him to be so horrificly slow after attacking, considering he only has a few kill moves that actually work. No one gets hit by bowsers fmash unless some heavvvvvy mindgames are involved.

Anyway, startup lag for bowsers powerful moves is still needed, but its the afterlag on things like his bair, and dair that should just be gone completly. Even with L cancelling he's still sluggish...

not gone completly.....read my huge stick thing......again. if bowser was able to shuffle back airs like DK that woudl be very stupid. Sorry dylan....he needs lag after and before attacks.....reduce after lag attacks a little bit but not by very much.





Dylan you just dont get power and speed so you? Bowsers arials MUST lag. His smashes must lag. give him a few non-laggy moves would be fine but not zero lag on his arials........not even the characters with the overall fastest arials have zero lag........bowsers dair uair and fair are fine with L-cancels. But his back air is situational...and is ony of my least favorite air attacks. But this doesnt only apply to bowser, all power characters need to be slow period. You cant have their arials have zero lag after that is dumb. Slow characters have the title "SLOW" for a reason. Give them very little lag does not make them a slow character. It makes them a fast. SO here it is again so you dont have to look for it.

"swing a giant branch (as HARD as you can) and try to recover fast....."

 

[Red Exodus]

Not making them flinch won't be as effective as it sounds. I can just picture people playing against slow characters now.

Here's how I think it'll happen, player B is Bowser, so he's slow, but doesn't flinch, player F is Fox, and he's fast [duh again =/]:

Player F: attacks player B
Player B: tries to attack through PF's attacks
PF: moves away
PB: misses
PF: punishes lag

Throw in a few hits from PB once in awhile and that's a match between a casual bowser and a casual fox. Please note it's not supposed to be in-depth, so I don't want to hear "PF wouldn't know PB is attacking so he'd get hit all the time". When I was a casual player I could see these things, that's why no one I knew even played Bowser.

I don't see the point of making character's flinch less if they're still going to be so slow that they can't land hits. I play Bowser a little, I'm planning to main him. Right now all I can do is punish, punish, and punish with a side dish of punish and a punish mocha latte. If I even try to go offensive I get hit before the move even comes out.

I also play Ganon, he's weaker than Bowser but at least he can hit people. The least they can do is weaker Bowser and speed him up a bit, he moves aren't even NEAR strong enough to justify his speed. For example, his upsmash is weaker than Fox's and Pikachu's, that's sad when you think about it.