max_da_ling
Smash Cadet
Brawl is sure to impress. They just have to make sure they get the balancing as good as possible.
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Who else is worried Brawl might not be that good?
- Thread starter Demon_machinE
- Start date
How can you NOT use X / Y to jump? Using the control stick to perform such things as SHLing and WDing are just plain inefficient.
The reason I resorted to personal attacks was because I have spent much time explaining the same exact thing to people like you, over and over again. It gets wearying. If you're going to be nosy and cause a raucus, at least pay attention, and maybe even do a little research before you go spouting your mouth off.
WTF? This isn't a "Speculate About How Halo 3 Will be Better Than Brawl" thread. GTFO.
To reiterate:
Wait, I'm confused.
Did you mean "would increase" or "wouldn't increase anymore"?
max_da_ling
Smash Cadet
I only jump with the control stick if I'm going to be using uair, otherwise x is the only way to go.
Well I'd very much like to hear your argument for wavedashing in Brawl. And I'm not being snide, I actually skimmed through the first five pages of your previous posts in hopes that I would find it, but alas it seems you have not reiterated your stance in a good while.
And I don't think it's fair to generalize "people like me" for what is apparently the simple fact that I disagree with you on this issue. I've made a few arguments that I've yet to see in any anti-wavedash post.
Also, my research is **** good thank you very much. Until you can be bothered to explain that statement it will remain a broad and baseless accusation.
Don't play the weary card. Back up what you say!
EDIT: They bleeped the D-word! This forum is more age-accessible than the game it's based on.
HideousBeing
Smash Ace
Well, sounds like I need to do some serious re-learning practice. I hate that. In response to the last comment, it's quite simple when you play Link, Zelda, and Bowser. Sheik though, is very hard with the control stick. See how hard it is yourself, anyone. Yeah, learning to use the C-stick for directional arials was a pain for me after being so used to doing everything with A. Now though, I get all frustrated when playing single player anything, because you can't use the C-stick. Yeah, this will take some serious practice time to correct. I didn't know it was so, like, duh.
That would destroy the point of even making it it's own button. Why not just keep it the way it is? I don't see why you're so against it. The only possible reason that I can fathom is that you:
A) Don't know how to do it, and you want a quicker, easier way to accomplish WDing.
B) Don't know how to do it, and is pissed that everyone else takes the time to learn it, and you just want the execution to be dumbed down.
C) Don't want WDing.
Again--why go through the trouble of making a set button for it? There's a perfectly good system of performing it already set up.
That's probably why. I wouldn't know, because I don't use them very often, lol.
There's no need to speculate or fathom anything, my reasons are in my initial post: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2736960#post2736960
I wouldn't mind you gleaning over the entire basis of my argument, if not for the fact that you accused me of not paying attention.
Basically I'm talking about the barrier between player and on-screen character. As far as I can tell the Smash Bros. series has always been designed to eliminate that as much as possible, to make Mario feel like a natural extension of the player's body. Because of this philosophy the true test lies almost exlusively upon who is the better strategist, the challenge lies not in button combinations but in using your moves wisely.
My stance is simply in the name of preserving that. I feel WD in its current implementation is counter-intuitive in that regard.
Is Wavedashing not a move? Don't you have to use it wisely for it to be effective? And the better strategist uses what he has in his lap to win. And what is in his lap is advanced techniques.
The WD varies in effectiveness / strategic value from character to character, just like any special move. It's like characters having different smashes, or tilts. Everyone has a differing WD.
Plus, you're making a big deal out of it. When it comes down to push and shove, the WD isn't the most important advanced tech. It's merely a vehicle for mindgaming / spacing / movement / linking attacks more than anything else.
This all sounds like a plea for advanced techs to be eliminated. Which is fine if you think so, but the above argument just doesn't satisfy me.
That's nice, but obvious steps to increase the amount of technical skill possible in smash are evident in L-cancels, JC shines and stuff like that.
Even if smash were designed to be intuitive, I don't think that many people in the competitive smash world actually care if smash does or does not achieve this goal or not.
Smash is not all about strategy and mindgames, there is definitely some emphasis on tech skill programmed into the game- the developers wanted L-cancelling and dashdancing.
EDIT: The challenge in learning smash's button combinations for wavedashing lasts from a week to a month, depending on how much daily time you spend on it. After a breif period of time, the challenge is gone anyway.
I've met people who have difficulty SMASHING without the C-stick. I've met people who have trouble using the up-b recovery move. There are some people who have difficulty with tech skill, but that does not justify it's removal, escpecially if the few weeks' worth of hurdle adds years of the strategy that you already say you value.
Even if smash were designed to be intuitive, I don't think that many people in the competitive smash world actually care if smash does or does not achieve this goal or not.
Smash is not all about strategy and mindgames, there is definitely some emphasis on tech skill programmed into the game- the developers wanted L-cancelling and dashdancing.
EDIT: The challenge in learning smash's button combinations for wavedashing lasts from a week to a month, depending on how much daily time you spend on it. After a breif period of time, the challenge is gone anyway.
I've met people who have difficulty SMASHING without the C-stick. I've met people who have trouble using the up-b recovery move. There are some people who have difficulty with tech skill, but that does not justify it's removal, escpecially if the few weeks' worth of hurdle adds years of the strategy that you already say you value.
cyberdemon
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2005
- Messages
- 456
The developers intentionally put l-cancel for us, so we could master it.
But I'm not so sure about dashdancing, I don't think that the developers tought about dashdancing when making the game.
Learning both l-cancel and wavedash can take as little as a month (or even less), depending on how much you practice.
I think some people complain about the advanced techs, because they are just too lazy to try and learn them.
I'm not at all calling for the removal of advanced techniques, Lord no. I'm just calling for their implementation to be as seamless as possible. DI is a very good example of this; it could be a very long time before a player realizes it even exists, yet it's so elegant in its simplicity.
JC shine is an interesting case though. It appears that its design was most likely meant to mimic a standard shield, in that "you can jump out of a shield so why not a shine?" The difference of course is that shines can be used offensively which was very much intended but clearly not as its primary use. The ramifications of being able to jump naturally translating into blah blah blah. In short, it was unforseen.
Oh, but dashdancing I should tackle. And I will tackle it by saying it's so easy! Hell, it's easier than teching even. Again, dashdancing, brilliant execution, so simple and yet most new players will not know about it for a good while.
And in case someone thinks that argument is bull****, I submit the following thought to chew on. Would obfuscating Mario's fireball be good for the game? After all, you can't shoot Ryu's fireball in Street Fighter straight away, you have to work toward it and earn the right to do it.
If you say "well that's not an AT", well it could be. Would you disapprove of officially converting all the B moves into ATs? More ATs, more skill gaps, more prestige, more challenge.
Of course that's an extreme example but my point stands. We all know that despite the technical stuff in Smash Bros. is it still the antithesis of technical skill when compared to almost any other fighter of any depth. I think it's pretty amazing that a fighting game could accomplish that actually. Ultimately what I'm saying is using button combos to challenge the player is a game design crutch, artificial depth. That is my argument against WD's (accidental) execution.
That's true. I concede that a certain technical skill gap was intended, however I still question as to the width of that intended gap, and whether WD surpasses it, which I believe it does.
JC shine is an interesting case though. It appears that its design was most likely meant to mimic a standard shield, in that "you can jump out of a shield so why not a shine?" The difference of course is that shines can be used offensively which was very much intended but clearly not as its primary use. The ramifications of being able to jump naturally translating into blah blah blah. In short, it was unforseen.
Also true. But that only means that a competitive smasher has no reason to oppose of it as long as their world is not negatively affected. A decent smasher knows how to wavedash on command without fail so what difference does it make if it's made even easier? A noob in possession of a WD button will still get crushed by a pro no matter what.
True, true, I was exaggerating.
Oh, but dashdancing I should tackle. And I will tackle it by saying it's so easy! Hell, it's easier than teching even. Again, dashdancing, brilliant execution, so simple and yet most new players will not know about it for a good while.
The short time spent getting the technique right is indeed insignificant, so again, what does it matter to the competitive scene if it's there at all?
Heh, yeah. Again I recant my statement that the game is meant to be 100% mindgames and strategy. But I hold to the statement that a "technical skill" line is drawn, one that smash attacks do not cross but one that wavedashes in their current implementation do.
And in case someone thinks that argument is bull****, I submit the following thought to chew on. Would obfuscating Mario's fireball be good for the game? After all, you can't shoot Ryu's fireball in Street Fighter straight away, you have to work toward it and earn the right to do it.
If you say "well that's not an AT", well it could be. Would you disapprove of officially converting all the B moves into ATs? More ATs, more skill gaps, more prestige, more challenge.
Of course that's an extreme example but my point stands. We all know that despite the technical stuff in Smash Bros. is it still the antithesis of technical skill when compared to almost any other fighter of any depth. I think it's pretty amazing that a fighting game could accomplish that actually. Ultimately what I'm saying is using button combos to challenge the player is a game design crutch, artificial depth. That is my argument against WD's (accidental) execution.
NES n00b
Smash Master
Wavedashing is about as easy at it gets. You press jump then press R or L with the desired angle (timed correctly). The only other way I can see WD being simpler is if you reassign one of the buttons to air dodge automatically to the ground and you press the direction (really angle) you want to go. The problem then is you have to do a full wavedash all the time which means you can't do trijumps or whatever they are called. XD
Also, wavedashing is actually more simple than some intended stuff like Pikachu's upb which requires more inputs. Luigi's and Mario's tornado takes alot of button presses (especially Luigi) to rise with their tornado. I think it is close to simplicity as it can truly get. On a side note, I would like the tornado rises for the Mario bros to be easier. XD
I like you theZizz. You actually debate. :o
Also, wavedashing is actually more simple than some intended stuff like Pikachu's upb which requires more inputs. Luigi's and Mario's tornado takes alot of button presses (especially Luigi) to rise with their tornado. I think it is close to simplicity as it can truly get. On a side note, I would like the tornado rises for the Mario bros to be easier. XD
I like you theZizz. You actually debate. :o
Well, I'd say pikachu's up B is easier because there is a bigger time frame for the inputs than wavedashing.
Also, yeah thezizz has valid points, and I do agree that if you could have some easier way to wavedash while keeping all the same functionality then sure, put it in. The problem I see is that the controllers only have so much room and buttons and right now the method to wavedash is, even if accidental, very good in my opinion.
What you suggested earlier about having the shield button and wavedash thing, it would make wavelanding more difficult and to be honest I would find the current WD method easier because I have find it to take a little much effort right now to use tilts.
Anyhow, it may be a matter of opinion about WD's technical whatever but I like having a technical slope to learn. Despite my having played a year in awareness of technical stuff there are still a few maneuvers that I haven't completely picked up such as ledgehop u-air with ganon, some desync grab stuff with ICs, SHDL with fox and so on. I think smash in it's current state basically goes sort of like this in terms of required tech skill:
shield grab
dashdance
JC grab
wavedash
SHFFL
edge wavedash
character specific stuff
and the gap between most of these is fine by me.
My main point: If there is some way to make WD easier while preserving all its functions, then I would be fine with it. I can't think of one and personally, I feel that the level of difficulty is fine.
Also, yeah thezizz has valid points, and I do agree that if you could have some easier way to wavedash while keeping all the same functionality then sure, put it in. The problem I see is that the controllers only have so much room and buttons and right now the method to wavedash is, even if accidental, very good in my opinion.
What you suggested earlier about having the shield button and wavedash thing, it would make wavelanding more difficult and to be honest I would find the current WD method easier because I have find it to take a little much effort right now to use tilts.
Anyhow, it may be a matter of opinion about WD's technical whatever but I like having a technical slope to learn. Despite my having played a year in awareness of technical stuff there are still a few maneuvers that I haven't completely picked up such as ledgehop u-air with ganon, some desync grab stuff with ICs, SHDL with fox and so on. I think smash in it's current state basically goes sort of like this in terms of required tech skill:
shield grab
dashdance
JC grab
wavedash
SHFFL
edge wavedash
character specific stuff
and the gap between most of these is fine by me.
My main point: If there is some way to make WD easier while preserving all its functions, then I would be fine with it. I can't think of one and personally, I feel that the level of difficulty is fine.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Dash dancing wasn't intentional. Being able to quickly change directions in the beginning of the dash was. Dash dancing is just a side effect of them making it easier to go the opposite way after a short burst of speed in one direction.
A lot of things in the game, mostly character specific stuff (as well as the JC shines as mentioned earlier) were set up for a very good reason although used quite differently than they intended. There is nothing wrong with this either, it's just using what ya got :-P.
BigRick
Smash Master
Actually dashdancing is an exploit.
Like MookieRah stated, you exploit your character's ability to change direction during the beginning of a dash... change direction many times in a row and you get a dashdance.
Anyways, gamers will always try to exploit things in games in order to get an edge over their competition. You can see this in every multiplayer game.
Personally I think that Sakurai will remove wavedashing in Brawl, however I think that there will be plenty of new exploits in that game, and I can't wait to try to find them out.
(Hehe, I especially want to find some kind of glitch with Pokémon Trainer, in order to make him ''super effective!'')
Like MookieRah stated, you exploit your character's ability to change direction during the beginning of a dash... change direction many times in a row and you get a dashdance.
Anyways, gamers will always try to exploit things in games in order to get an edge over their competition. You can see this in every multiplayer game.
Personally I think that Sakurai will remove wavedashing in Brawl, however I think that there will be plenty of new exploits in that game, and I can't wait to try to find them out.
(Hehe, I especially want to find some kind of glitch with Pokémon Trainer, in order to make him ''super effective!'')
HideousBeing
Smash Ace
Why? I thought it was just a bug related to the fact that the opening animation of any character's run is different than their cotinued run. Think of Samus's run, whose opening animation takes her faster than when she continues to dash. Kind of a bug like how rolling up the ledge still occupies the ledge until you're done.
Adi
Smash Lord
Well both of these things were in Smash 64 and well acknowledged and were still put in Melee, so if the developers wanted to take it out they would have.
HideousBeing
Smash Ace
Actually, rolling did not edgehog on smash 64. As soon as the roll up the ledge, even while still rolling, the ledge is no longer occupied and others can grab onto it. This makes me wonder if this was an error in melee. I doubt it, but I think it's a dumb thing anyway. I've nothing against it, I use it myself of course, it's just, it's too easy I guess. Successfully edgehogging Mario, for example should be a well timed press to avoid the damage but prevent him from grabbing at the same time. Rolling makes timing practically unnecessary.
Pokebrawl
Smash Journeyman
Now I'm especially worried with the arrival of Pokemon Trainer.
HideousBeing
Smash Ace
^Heh, yeah. I predict that there will be one Pokemon that everyone prefers and everyone will play that one with few exceptions like Sheik over Zelda. It'll be: "Who do you play?" "Oh, I play Charizard." Not, "Oh, I play the Pokemon Trainer."
BigRick
Smash Master
Don't forget about the stamina feature, fellows. Sakurai implemented it cause he wants you to switch pokémans.
However, there might be some kind of exploitable glitch related to it... we'll see.
Anyways, I really want to try Pokémon Trainer, I hope that his pokémon switch move (down+B) can be performed quickly... it would be even greater if it could be performed while your pokémon is in hit stun... kinda like the TV show hehe.
Erm, nvm guys... >_> I never watched that show.
kin3tic-c4jun-3
Smash Ace
Now that I've seen Petey, I'm scared.
Scared to death.
Scared to death.
Takeshi245
Smash Champion
Why is that?
NES n00b
Smash Master
lol. Yeah, if I thought he was going to be on the roster I would be scared, too. :o
I have faith that Sakurai made good character descisions.
AngeloRoccosanto
Smash Cadet
im worried about the playable characters especially after i saw pokemon trainer something told me its go n to be stupid. w/e i guess well find out dec. 3rd.
AngeloRoccosanto
Smash Cadet
so i mentioned im worried about the cHARACTERS but im also worried about the controls with the wii remote and nunchuk. if their trash then ill use my wireless gamecube one. well c
Pit 42
Smash Lord
With the new entry, I'm just hoping that there's no voice acting for the Subspace Emissary.
shadenexus18
Smash Master
If he's popular overseas in the far East, then we're all in big big trouble. Man, it's sad that he's not even good enough to be a WTF character, truly sad.
Takeshi245
Smash Champion
I don't care if Petey Piranha is in Brawl or not. I just want to see Sonic. Oh,a nd Brawl's 1 player mode looks good and interesting.
shadenexus18
Smash Master
Well you should care. He doesn't deserve a character slot. He's a loser. Heck, he doesn't even deserve to be an assist trophy!
Takeshi245
Smash Champion
So much hate for Petey Pirahna you have, Shadenexus. What if he is a playable character, huh?! What would you do?! Oh, and you're not going to dominate the Brawl community with your online clan.
shadenexus18
Smash Master
Duh! I'm going to make Petey Pirahna as my test dummy in training mode with every new character I experiment with. That should of been obvious.
But we're jumping the gun here, that abomination of a character will never make it into Brawl. NEVER!
NES n00b
Smash Master
Especially if I am in a crew. >_>
There were stupid characters in Melee like Pichu. Just accept the good with the bad. Either that or sulk. <_<
max_da_ling
Smash Cadet
Petey does not deserve to be there, but if he does make it as a playable.... I'll just have to make sure I can kick his ***. I refuse to lose to that Thong wearing, Flowery, Regurgitating plant crap.
Takeshi245
Smash Champion
Well, you'll have a fun time beating him up in Adventure mode.
