Who Creates Worst Play Experience

[MaxThunder]

i feel tempted to post a vid of norwegian guy playing ivy's bair=P...
we'll see when it gets uploaded...

 

[Rat]

I don't find fighting GW annoying or irritating. The worst part is him UpBing out of everything. But once you adjust to that and don't overextend your combos it's not that bad. He's still light and you can force him into bad situations when he's coming down.

If he does bacon in neutral just attack him. Those little things have low priority.

Also despite having long lasting hitboxes, GW commits pretty hard to his actions. (His low commit options aren't that great.) So rolling and evasive play works well.

 

[Juushichi]

I don't find fighting GW annoying or irritating. The worst part is him UpBing out of everything. But once you adjust to that and don't overextend your combos it's not that bad. He's still light and you can force him into bad situations when he's coming down.

If he does bacon in neutral just attack him. Those little things have low priority.

Also despite having long lasting hitboxes, GW commits pretty hard to his actions. (His low commit options aren't that great.) So rolling and evasive play works well.

Preach. This is what I've been saying foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Rat]

Preach...

Fire and Chicken will come burning down onto the heads of the unbelievers! Oh they may say "It won't happen. That there's no law or higher order - it's random." Woe on them.

For the heart of the True Believers know, truely knows, when the Strongest meat will come. For they've seen the hammer of Justice! They believe the wrath will come with lightning. And that it will bring healing fruit to those who truely have the faith.

 

[Spiffykins]

G&W isn't so bad. Bacon is. Vegetarian 4 lyfe.

Bowser's got some BS. Fsmash: pulls away from you, then armor, then death explosion, then way too little lag for you to ever hope to punish unless it was a really bad fsmash. Bair is like 5 Sheik fairs stacked on top of each other. Dsmash is like that nightmare where you get sucked out the window by some invisible force.

Anyone wearing a hat with a letter on it is annoying.

Zelda.

Small pokemon.

Chaingrabs & hand grenades.

 

[Bombitty]

This is a very therapeutic thread. Let's vent all that anger out.

 

[Strong Badam]

Anyone wearing a hat with a letter on it is annoying.

this is hilarious

 

[Phaiyte]

I've never had any real worries about playing against one single character before. Like, I ****ing hate fighting Falco with Ganon but I'll just switch characters for that.

 

[Kati]

Pit. His voice. Bloody arrogant taunts too.

 

[Strong Badam]

YOU CAN'T DEFEAT ME!

 

[Minor Pandemic]

So what you're telling me is that YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW YOU'RE TOO SLOW

 

[Ninjamo]

-Sonic because of the B button
-Toon Link because he's mini-Marth
-Ivy because for floatiness reasons
-Any character with a sex kick. Getting combo'd? Simply make love to the A button
-Snake, especially if he's on your team

 

[GP&B]

I think the first time I had a Shoulder Bash go clean through the startup frames on Zelda's Nayru's Love, I put my controller down and said out loud "What the **** was that? Are they out of their minds?"

 

[SpiderMad]

That thing goes through Squirtle's soul

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I played a lot of sets against an Ivysaur today, mostly as Captain Falcon, and I've concluded that Razor Leaf is the most frustrating thing in this game by a wide margin. He kept throwing it at around my head height, so it would hit me in a short hop and on the ground. My only option, as near as I could tell, was to Nair or Uair the thing. If I full hopped over it, I got baired, if I shielded it I got grabbed, if I took the hit or CC'd, I got a smacked while in hitstun. And when I kill it with an aerial (assuming it was thrown slowly or from far enough away that I can react with one), I get punished for the aerial.

Someone please tell me I'm missing something here

 

[DMG]

You are supposed to Falcon Kick from the skies, clearly.

 

[Ninjamo]

I hate that Falcon is such a sucker to projectiles, edgeguarding/hogging, and spacies. Though Falcon Kick is marginally effective vs projectiles from what I've seen.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

Bowser. I can't tell you how horribly annoying it is for my opponents when they play me.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Wario is a blast to play as but really annoying to fight as with Link imo. Nair cuts thru rang and fair autocancels are free. Also, getting comboed into waft for a 50% kill is really annoying.

 

[Kati]

Pika's thunder has ridiculously short ending lag. I've learned to be extremely careful around it, but the move is so spammable that it really hurts the game when I am trying to bring in new players.

 

[-Fatality-]

I played a lot of sets against an Ivysaur today, mostly as Captain Falcon, and I've concluded that Razor Leaf is the most frustrating thing in this game by a wide margin. He kept throwing it at around my head height, so it would hit me in a short hop and on the ground. My only option, as near as I could tell, was to Nair or Uair the thing. If I full hopped over it, I got baired, if I shielded it I got grabbed, if I took the hit or CC'd, I got a smacked while in hitstun. And when I kill it with an aerial (assuming it was thrown slowly or from far enough away that I can react with one), I get punished for the aerial.

Someone please tell me I'm missing something here

If your getting so throughly demolished no matter what options you choose... hate to say it, but you're probably just getting outplayed and/or your playing the matchup like a robot, and need to rethink the way you play the matchup.
As for Razor Leaf, think of it like a worse, more balanced version of Falco Laser, that's solidly good at covering approaches, and moderately useful for camping. You should generally just get in Ivy's face as much as possible, as Falcon has the ability to combo her hard, kill her early, and just run in circles around her.
Running aerials are a great way to invalidate Razor Leaf, or a more defensive option that's also solid is retreating nairs or bairs. There's a decent span of time after a leaf where the Ivy is unable to fire another one that you should generally use to rush her down. When you want to rush an Ivy down and are anticipating the Leaf, try preemptively throwing out a nair as you approach. Generally try to pressure Ivy from behind whenever possible as her OOS options for behind her are rather mediocre.

As a whole, this matchup is likely in your favor, 60-40, or at least 55-45 Falcon. While my advice is a solid start, you should really work on trying to read the patterns in your friend's play behavior. Theory can only go so far. In the end, a positive matchup will only mean something if you have the ability and knowledge to take advantage of why it's good or bad on your end.

To summarize the matchup for Falcon:
1, play around Razor Leaf as much as possible through aggressive or defensive aerial movements.
2, When you get a grab or other combo starter, make it count.
3, Don't get grabbed.
4, try to get behind Ivy as much as possible.
5, be patient, Ivy's defensive capabilities are among the best in the game, reckless approaches will punish you time and time again.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

snip.

Thank you for the write up and advice. To clarify, I was winning 2/3 of the games, I just got very frustrated by razor leaf and made too-angry a post over it. I'm used to beating that player much more handily. That isn't the point though. I don't care if I lose every game if I'm able to understand my mistakes and work to improve them. I was frustrated because I could not come up with a good method for fighting Razor Leaf, so was struggling to actually improve myself.

Again though, thank you for the advice and I'll try to put it to use next time I play Ivysaur.

 

[Swann]

I came to this thread for Ivysaur.

Was not disappointed.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Razor leaf is not comparable to Falco laser's in even the broadest sense. It's much more like a strictly better Luigi fireball than anything.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Zelda is a cheating horse

 

[HyperrCrow]

Razor leaf is not comparable to Falco laser's in even the broadest sense. It's much more like a strictly better Luigi fireball than anything.

Seriously, it's not even that bad. Not to mention Falco's jab can clank with the damn thing. Ridiculous.

 

[a vehicle]

I like the road this thread is taking.

It's my opinion that any opponent that can effortlessly force you to a "craftier" opening is considered annoying.
No wonder everyone is hating on the new stylish Ivy.
But while I've heard some complaints from friends, they still rather face my Ivy to my Jiggs because floaties are the true annoying race

 

[PrincessAzula]

I'm a Zelda/Ivy main............

Going out on a limb here but am I the only one who just despises playing against ZSS!??!

 

[Minor Pandemic]

I like the road this thread is taking.

It's my opinion that any opponent that can effortlessly force you to a "craftier" opening is considered annoying.
No wonder everyone is hating on the new stylish Ivy.
But while I've heard some complaints from friends, they still rather face my Ivy to my Jiggs because floaties are the true annoying race

What bothers me about Razor Leaf (I want to talk about that move because it's really the only thing that I find to create a bad experience with the character, along with maybe not knowing which Seed Bomb trajectory was chosen) is that it doesn't just limit my ability to dash dance, but it also makes shielding, crouchcancelling, running away (the distance it goes is quite far), and (depending on where it's thrown) jumping or not jumping all invalid options. I really wish Razor Leaf felt like something that creative and crafty play could help me deal with, but instead it feels like "Now you have no choice but to clash with this projectile". I'm not very good compared to many people here, so maybe there's a crafty way to beat it, but to me it is frustrating not because it limits some options, but because it limits almost every option.

 

[HyperrCrow]

I'm a Zelda/Ivy main............

Going out on a limb here but am I the only one who just despises playing against ZSS!??!

I main Ivy and ZSS. I am now the most hated player ever.

 

[a vehicle]

There's nothing crafty about Falco's lasers and yet it's forbidden to complain about it.
I think that as of right now the audience willing to share any frustration about Ivy's leaf is the same that doesn't know what to do against Ness's PKF
There's always a way around it and we learned from melee that it only takes 12 years to get used to that fact

 

[Burnsy]

I never found Ness' PK fire difficult to deal with, but I do find Razor Leaf to limit all of my good options and leaves me with crappy ones, at basically no cost or risk to Ivy.

 

[Xenozoa425]

I'm surprised by the amount of GnW hate in here. I mean besides CC dtilt and bacon spamming can be pretty annoying, but the character as a whole is just so fun to play against in my opinion, much more tolerable than Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik shenanigans. I used to think he was worthless and a complete waste of space, and now I pretty much main him.

Besides obvious choices that most everyone will agree with (Ivysaur, Zelda, Puff, Mario) two characters I genuinely dislike going against are Peach and Squirtle. Mario used to really get on my nerves, but you adapt and learn how to not get hit by fireballs whenever possible, watch out for cape, etc. Though it's better said than done, that's for sure.

 

[PrincessAzula]

What bothers me about Razor Leaf (I want to talk about that move because it's really the only thing that I find to create a bad experience with the character, along with maybe not knowing which Seed Bomb trajectory was chosen) is that it doesn't just limit my ability to dash dance, but it also makes shielding, crouchcancelling, running away (the distance it goes is quite far), and (depending on where it's thrown) jumping or not jumping all invalid options. I really wish Razor Leaf felt like something that creative and crafty play could help me deal with, but instead it feels like "Now you have no choice but to clash with this projectile". I'm not very good compared to many people here, so maybe there's a crafty way to beat it, but to me it is frustrating not because it limits some options, but because it limits almost every option.

Isn't this the purpose of a character having a projectile?

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I REALLY don't understand the Zelda salt, how is she annoying in the slightest?
G&W is my number one by leagues ahead of any other character. Mario is a distant second, and Bowser is just so powerful it's dumb. Then again, I don't want them to change any of them, because they aren't OP. I just don't like them.



Except for Game and Watch. **** him.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

My understanding is that the changes to Razor Leaf were specifically to help Ivy deal with Dash Dance camping, so I would say that no, the purpose of the character having the projectile is not to leave me just one or two bad options, but rather to take away a single very good option.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I REALLY don't understand the Zelda salt, how is she annoying in the slightest?.

Her design is intentionally void of a movement game and, depending on the matchup, revolves around getting two setups into superkicks or really, really slow, dreadful U-smash combos.

Like imagine if Marth's U-throw had a super obnoxious animation that took a full second and a half off the clock every time he used the move, and it still retained its chain grab on spacies.

Essentially the most annoying attributes about Zelda are the kinds of things that contradict smash's appeal in the first place: The ability to constantly change interaction with quick moves and split second spacing, none of which Zelda has. Meanwhile the aspects of Zelda that ARE strong are directly against the model and involve arduous, slow, mundane combos that mostly involve Zelda standing nearly stationary or moving just barely enough to run U-smash again or superkick her opponent after they've bounced off a mine. That she threw them into. From a grab. Landed from a stationary position.

Basically Zelda's a fat sedentary *****.


And hate against ZSS is understandable. She's fast and she can get combos off momentum OR CHOOSE to use momentum to set up a strong spacing option, gaining momentum back, until she can land a kill, riding off essentially the same momentum gained from her first hit.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Her design is intentionally void of a movement game and, depending on the matchup, revolves around getting two setups into superkicks or really, really slow, dreadful U-smash combos.

Like imagine if Marth's U-throw had a super obnoxious animation that took a full second and a half off the clock every time he used the move, and it still retained its chain grab on spacies.

Essentially the most annoying attributes about Zelda are the kinds of things that contradict smash's appeal in the first place: The ability to constantly change interaction with quick moves and split second spacing, none of which Zelda has. Meanwhile the aspects of Zelda that ARE strong are directly against the model and involve arduous, slow, mundane combos that mostly involve Zelda standing nearly stationary or moving just barely enough to run U-smash again or superkick her opponent after they've bounced off a mine. That she threw them into. From a grab. Landed from a stationary position.

Basically Zelda's a fat sedentary *****.

Thank you for the explanation. I personally find Zelda fun to fight, but at least you gave a solid argument against her. I think it's awesome that the melee environment can have a decent campy character like Zelda, but I understand the dislike. But I digress.

Also, the reasons to hate Zamus you gave can be summed up by saying "She's very solid about holding momentum." Not a good reason for hate.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm the last person to be against a "campy" character. I use Jigglypuff and Young Link as secondaries in Melee, and a very campy Charizard and Squirtle in PM. The difference is in the kind of tools that make those characters campy (Read: Space well+Run away) versus the kind that the likes of Zelda and Falco have (Shut down+keep away).

 

[Nemiak temp]

Falco is considered campy? How? He can laser camp but that's not winning any Falco's their matches. He's like the ultimate aggressive character