Who Creates Worst Play Experience

[Problem2]

Most frustrating character to face: 2.5 Sonic
Most fun character to play: 2.5 Sonic

Nah, but really, my pet peeves of the month are like Dakpo's g&w (that's right! Only when Dakpo's plays him does it count). Zelda is annoying when I'm not Link. Ganondorf IS annoying when I'm Link. Sheik still does that annoying Sheik stuff in PM sans the chain grab.

Squirtle has that trollish small height, but I didn't find him unfun to play against, though he forces some characters to play quite differently.

Idk, most characters are only truly annoying when you don't know what to do vs them.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

squirtles main problem is that his hit entire nair hitbox can fit inside almost every other character's aerial's hit box without getting close to their hurtbox. Squirtle's size, while great for defense, makes it almost impossible to get aerial hits sometimes. but maybe I just suck.

 

[SpiderMad]

Make a "How to make Zelda fun thread." Start with "Give her Melee kicks and Airdodge out of side B" and post nothing else.

In 1.0, besides having Air dodge out of side-b she was all around faster: closer to ZSS in maneuverability. I don't agree with making her kicks any better.

 

[JOE!]

When using Zard: Zelda

In general: Falco, I have 0 problems with Fox but characters like Falco/Jiggs (also despise) are almost like fighting an NPC in a different game cus all they "need' to use is their Down B and an aerial or two to do the work for them while most every other character has to use their whole tool box. Those two really only need like 4-5 of them and it rustles my jimmies.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

I hate Zelda and Ivysaur mostly. The rest I can deal with.

(I hate Shiek too, but she doesn't count)

 

[Burnsy]

squirtles main problem is that his hit entire nair hitbox can fit inside almost every other character's aerial's hit box without getting close to their hurtbox. Squirtle's size, while great for defense, makes it almost impossible to get aerial hits sometimes. but maybe I just suck.

Nair isn't his only aerial; his tail is invincible on dair and bair (maybe uair now too?), making the moves basically disjoints that give them decent range relative to his size and buffed airspeed.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

yeah that's true but I'm a bad squirtle because I try to play him as ike ie spam nair everywhere

 

[NightShadow6]

Ivysaur man. Everything about her feels like it was buffed to be made quicker and or more effective.

 

[Burnsy]

yeah that's true but I'm a bad squirtle because I try to play him as ike ie spam nair everywhere

That's your problem then, not Squirtle's, lol.

 

[-Fatality-]

Most of the various frustrations you guys are facing probably stem from general ignorance on how to deal with X character. Project M's 2.6 Metagame is incredibly diverse and new, so most of the new character's general metagames (and how to properly handle them) is still largely unknown. After rigorously testing 2.6, I can assure you guys that none of the characters in this game (except arguably spacies) are OP. If you can't deal with X character, my advice is to sit down for a moment with some other smashers, and try to solve your matchup issues. There are a lot of characters that seem really annoying at first glance, but once you understand them in relation to the characters you use, you will likely realize that they are in actuality, fair characters with very exploitable weaknesses if you know what you're doing. If you reach the conclusion that X matchup with Y main of yours is too hard, pick up a secondary who counters character X. If your having problems with a certain move, go to training mode, and do every conceivable thing imaginable to counter or invalidate the move. If you still can't beat whatever you're having problems with, the player on the other end is likely just outplaying you.
I for one, am loving Project M more than any other game I've ever played. The sheer diversity of the relatively balanced cast is absolutely astounding. And while having to learn such a massive number of matchups to be truly successful is an epic undertaking, the satisfaction I (and hopefully you guys) get from learning this game is really something special.
The Melee top tiers have had their metagames developed for more than a decade, is it really a surprise so many of us are struggling in the face of unfamilar challenges?

 

[DMG]

It's not about OP characters. Zelda and Ivy aren't OP. But clowns cry tears of great shame whenever you have to play against them, because they sap fun out of the air like that one guy who tells the same stories, but progressively forgets his own details.

 

[-Fatality-]

It's not about OP characters. Zelda and Ivy aren't OP. But clowns cry tears of great shame whenever you have to play against them, because they sap fun out of the air like that one guy who tells the same stories, but progressively forgets his own details.

lol, that reminds me all too well of some old people I know who endlessly talk about the same mundane things, while you just sit there and nod politely, waiting for them to eventually finish.
Anyway, if you find a character unfun to play against, it's probably because they encourage a playstyle that isn't to your tastes, which is completely understandable. Otherwise, it probably stems from not knowing the matchup particularly well. In a game with this much diversity, it's almost inevitable that any given person will have characters they dislike playing against. At least it's comforting (from your perspective) to know the two characters that you dislike, DMG, aren't very popular.

 

[iLink]

Ivysaur's razor leaf makes the entire character obnoxious.

I would say sonic 2.5, but no one wants to use him anymore in 2.6 to really have an opinion on him.

Squirtle is a tiny hitbox just sliding around all over the place.

Bowser's upb as a whole.

 

[trash?]

"who creates the worst play experience?"

MEMEME, PICK ME PICK ME I CAN DO THAT, I CAN DO THAT

flails arms upward

 

[Eisen]

Despite all the hate, I don't mind Zelda. I think that the beginning of Nayru eating every move I throw before it's used is dumb, but there are plenty of other things I can say that displease me. Mind you, I only play wifi and I'm a scrub but--

-Mario. Every time I play Mario I want to jam the controller in my face. But I guess that's kind of good because it means he can be a challenge in this game.
-Snake for his combos being so easy to pull off with the bait and wait playstyle working so well against technical characters, particularly because wifi.
-Wario and Falcon are kind of annoying but not as much, mostly because failing a tech because of lag means you get killed pretty easily, and a few strings are so repetitive and boring to endure.
-Ganondorf is slightly less annoying than the above

And lastly, while I don't dislike playing against Bowser... something about playing him feels really lame. Just a personal preference, but while I love Bowser in general, I don't like his style in PM. Which is ok. I think in theory it suits him and is one of the more unique branch-off styles in the game, but I just can't deal with it personally. More reason to focus on Lucas, is how I see it.

 

[Archangel]

I'll be honest, I don't see how people are still picking Captain Ordinary as the worst experience. He's Falcon...one of the most beatable of the good characters in melee and he's basically the same in this game...or perhaps many just don't know the Falcon MU from melee?

Anyway if I had to pick I'd say....characters like Zelda, Ivy, and Wario(depending on what characters I'm using) but pretty much any characters that turn Project M into Brawl in lighting mode. The hallmark of melee was that ability to find a way to fight someone who doesn't want to fight you. It made defensive vs offensive players always have the most legendary sets. Shiz vs M2K comes to mind. The fact is Aggressiveness isn't rewarded in Project M the way it is in melee. Partly do to design, partly do to shielding in this game not being perfected and something else that I just can't put my finger on. It feels like alot of characters are have samus level crouch canceling, Shield grabbing is the highest level of play for some characters...It makes you either opt for a character that is so offensive that it's STUPID (spacies, Lucas,...etc) Or a character that has Gaara of the desert defensive capabilities(Ivy,Zelda,...etc) The rest of the cast that aren't offensively stupid or defensively annoying as **** feel like the most fun characters to play. However, it seem like lame, annoying, and boring characters are locked with the overly offensively capable characters in an infinite loop called "Lets suck the fun out of this smash game too"

With all that said, I'm a pit main

Not that I'm of the belief that Pit is broken or anything, I just think he's the closest to being balanced in terms of defensive and offensive capabilities. Not the highest in any area but high enough, which might make him one of the most annoying overall...I'm not sure yet.

 

[Juushichi]

Not every character has the design potential to be very aggressive, so yeah... with 30+ characters, I don't want 50 Shades of Melee Fox/Falcon/Sheik and actually quite enjoy characters that are a bit of the antithesis of this.

There needs to be tweaking of shields, I guess... but I think a good Shield game should be relatively important. I can't say that I really liked the fact that that sort of defense was not as important in Melee, especially when the best characters in the game had the ability to pressure into a guaranteed guard break (shine grab). But I don't want how important shield was in Brawl, even though the game taught how to navigate shield very very well with your character attributes.

 

[-Fatality-]

In melee. there weren't any truly good defensively minded characters, just offensive ones, and hyper offensive characters. In Project M, that balance has been remedied so that characters of every basic fighting style are now viable.
That unbalance in Melee is throwing many people off in Project M now, since for the first time, defensive characters can actually rival the hyper offensive characters at the top level of competition. I'm just glad that we can afford to have these luxury problems of disliking a few characters in return for such a diverse cast of characters, there's truly something for everyone in Project M.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

That's your problem then, not Squirtle's, lol.

exactly. as for characters that are actually toxic, honestly the only ones are falco fox and sheik, even as ddd those are the only ones that really bug me

 

[KayB]

Pit can be a ****ing jack-ass.

 

[| Kailex |]

Simply, any character my friend chooses (can be the entire cast) so, ****, I hate him

 

[ArtehFX]

Simply, any character my friend chooses (can be the entire cast) so, ****, I hate him

):...

 

[| Kailex |]

):...

Yeah, screw you

 

[batistabus]

In melee. there weren't any truly good defensively minded characters, just offensive ones, and hyper offensive characters. In Project M, that balance has been remedied so that characters of every basic fighting style are now viable.
That unbalance in Melee is throwing many people off in Project M now, since for the first time, defensive characters can actually rival the hyper offensive characters at the top level of competition.

Yes, I think this is a large part of the problem. I'm trying to come to terms with this, because the overall offensiveness of Melee is one of it's biggest appeals in my opinion. I know PM isn't just meant to be a Melee DLC, but many players are expecting PM to match Melee in terms of speed and excitement. If that's not going to happen, even in it's final "perfected" form, will PM live up to the hype? I know it's a trade-off (more "un-favored gameplay" characters in exchange for a larger, more balanced, and more diverse cast), but I'm not as confident in it as I was a year or two ago.

Don't get me wrong; I'm still really excited for the future PM and I love playing it. I'm sure this balance of design has been discussed at length in the BR, and I have faith that everyone is doing their best to find the perfect mix of diversity and interesting gameplay.

 

[ArtehFX]

Wario and Sonic, wario has a very annoying edge game in my opinion, as for sonic, I just hate him.

 

[-Fatality-]

Yes, I think this is a large part of the problem. I'm trying to come to terms with this, because the overall offensiveness of Melee is one of it's biggest appeals in my opinion. I know PM isn't just meant to be a Melee DLC, but many players are expecting PM to match Melee in terms of speed and excitement. If that's not going to happen, even in it's final "perfected" form, will PM live up to the hype?



I can see the appeal in the offensiveness, but do you think this game would be better off as a whole if literally every character in the game was offense-oriented? I think the overall variety of characters makes the game as a whole better. Considering it's literally impossible to please any given person without completely warping the game to their tastes, I feel like the healthiest alternative to that problem is to try and design characters that please as many different kinds of players as possible.
I know the defensive characters in particular are getting the most flak, probably because most of the PM players are/were melee players who have started playing this from melee. I think they've become so accustomed to playing the game a certain way, that having to essentially relearn the game against those characters is an alienating experience for them.
For those of you are offensively-minded, my best advice is to adapt to these new threats the best you can. The offensive characters are still the best in this game, and with good strategy and execution, you can dispatch these campy threats with style. If you still dislike them after throughly understanding them, then perhaps you should just play melee, or heck, even Smash 64, where basically everything is broken.

 

[Strong Badam]

i think melee's "offensiveness" is largely a myth perpetuated by low level players that really don't know why melee's such a great game. in high and top level play, the winner of a situation is often determined by who attacks second. this is not offensive play, but it IS extremely interesting, dynamic, and deep. you see falcon dash dance forever -> nair -> grab -> death combo and think "OMG He's so ballsy! Captain Falcon deserves bacon and women", while I think "what a calculated, patient, and defensive strategy that yields high reward."

 

[-Fatality-]

i think melee's "offensiveness" is largely a myth perpetuated by low level players that really don't know why melee's such a great game. in high and top level play, the winner of a situation is often determined by who attacks second. this is not offensive play, but it IS extremely interesting, dynamic, and deep. you see falcon dash dance forever -> nair -> grab -> death combo and think "OMG He's so ballsy! Captain Falcon deserves bacon and women", while I think "what a calculated, patient, and defensive strategy that yields high reward."

Finally, someone who gets it.
Though some of the non-melee top tier characters in PM make defensive play undeniably easier at the lower and higher level of play.

 

[gnosis]

High-level Melee is aggressive, it's just aggression that is non-commital. Playing back isn't as beneficial as being safely proactive. Like... Sheik, for example. Sheik is a 'defensive' character in the sense that she gets into certain zones and just shuts down the opponents options to aggro on her, but the act of moving that zone into a favorable position (taking center stage, backing them towards the edge, etc.) is 'aggressive'. Captain Falcon dashdancing into whatever is 'defensive', but the play that gives Falcon room to dashdance is 'aggressive'. If he just dashes back the whole game it lets the opponent set up favorable position basically for free.

Melee blends offense and defense well enough that the terms are usually too loose to really describe what's going on as one way or the other.

 

[DMG]

Going second is like 95% favorable. It's too good. Most favorite option in the game













Sike, I play Fox. Shine doesn't live by any shackling rules.

 

[Strong Badam]

High-level Melee is aggressive, it's just aggression that is non-commital.

 

[DMG]

 

[gnosis]

Do you think aggression can only be wild haymakers?

edit: maybe another way of putting this is that it is aggressive in that you extend, but non-commital in that you don't over-extend.

edit2: I've now realized that I'm basically plagiarizing Umbreon, so he probably explains this concept better under "Aggression" http://smashboards.com/threads/drastic-improvement.311129/

 

[\Apples]

Idk what's up with the G&W hate, I played one this past weekend at Gameclucks and we had what everyone called "the most exciting set all day". Too bad it wasn't recorded. I lost, barely, but it was one of the most fun sets I've ever played in all my smash career of 7 years.

It's funny, I think all of Vidjo's characters are broken (ZSS, Squirtle) and he thinks all of mine are broken (Wario, Link). What we've come to realize is that we really have no sense of what the real metagame is like despite how often we play. So, who's most annoying to play against? As always, depends on who you talk to for more than one reason. Depends on their playstyle and who they play against on a regular basis.

 

[DMG]

The crazy grab version of Link was pretty lame. The honorable one we currently get to use is pretty fair. Then again, my idea of having fun with Link is just trying to get people offstage and using Upb to kill/gimp them lol. That's it, that's my godly Link gameplan. Follow me on twitter if you like it.

Squirtle is close to being mad dope. I like the character, I approve of making his vertical links actually doable. The waterfall changes still feel weird, it's the pause before he moves. It's like... too perfectly tweaked. Sakurai would have ****ed it up.

 

[Archangel]

i think melee's "offensiveness" is largely a myth perpetuated by low level players that really don't know why melee's such a great game. in high and top level play, the winner of a situation is often determined by who attacks second. this is not offensive play, but it IS extremely interesting, dynamic, and deep. you see falcon dash dance forever -> nair -> grab -> death combo and think "OMG He's so ballsy! Captain Falcon deserves bacon and women", while I think "what a calculated, patient, and defensive strategy that yields high reward."

I guess the terms are too general, When I said Offensive capabilities I didn't just mean playing offensive or aggro. I meant what characters can do once they've got their opponent on his heals. SH double laser camping a peach as fox isn't exactly the same kind of defensive play you see from Ivysuar, It's much more of a "hurry up and get over here and kill me before your % gets to 9999999. Forcing you to find a way around it(peach Float canceling above it) or Just some kind of attempted attack/grab to get him to stop damaging you. If you do something stupid Fox can then *insert fox things* to kill you. Fox went from being defensive to suddenly ****ing you up on a dime. Falco can do very much the same kinda thing. Mango's Famous Dair-fade away is an example of how safe offensive characters can be. Alot of times you can cover retaliations from shield simply by multi-shine or Shine-grab as someone already pointed out. So...My point was, when I say offensive capability I mean just that. It's what a character is capable of offensively. When I say some characters have a more brawl-ish style of defensive capability it's basically any character who's highest level of play turns PM into Apex 2012 grand finals.

I'm not blaming it 100% on design or shields. In fact I currently couldn't care less if it's changed at all I'll still play because the character I main blends well with the PM direction. For me it's a question of making the same mistake again. Project M(elee) isn't suppose to replicate Melee it's suppose to continue it. Saying that something is bad because it's "not melee" is ignorant. With that said somethings are bad because they aren't melee. Then there is a matter of how that will effect Project M's longevity. I've been a strong supporter of PM since I found out about it in January of 2009. I only hope that it doesn't start to stray away from it's original intent and more towards an upgraded Brawl+ project. Brawl+ was fun in it's own right but it failed in the end. Project M has a really good chance of succeeding I just hope that the right choices are made is all.

 

[DMG]

Right choice is clearly taking out Ivy, Zelda, and Ganon and combining them into the SuperLawnMowerSparklingGanonizer9000 (TM)

 

[SpiderMad]

Squirtle is close to being mad dope. I like the character, I approve of making his vertical links actually doable. The waterfall changes still feel weird, it's the pause before he moves. It's like... too perfectly tweaked. Sakurai would have ****ed it up.

His bair just needs 1 frame sooner IASA to make SH Bair WL less hard than it's 1 frame difficulty now (First you have to time the bair ASAP out of the jump, and then the waveland ASAP before you hit the ground the next frame)

Also this is all I do anymore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlJNugitwMQ

 

[\Apples]

I just think Squirtle shouldn't have armor on his Side B. Armor, it seems to me, is a mechanic used to give slower characters options and make their sluggishness worth something. The reason armor on his Side B hurts the overall game is not only that it's a fast move, but also that the character is tiny. Furthermore, once he gets in with it, he's in for good unless your character has a great OOS option. Buffer a roll away and he just Side B's after you again, covers all options. Grab works sometimes but it shouldn't be the only option against it. The move ignores half of all attacks out there (the damn thing ignores a sweetspotted Wario Bair, what. the hell... also Ike's Fair at the hilt) and it pressures shields AND it combos if it connects or pokes. I really just don't see the reasoning and unless I'm missing something huge, I think it's really bad design.

 

[Archangel]

I just think Squirtle shouldn't have armor on his Side B. Armor, it seems to me, is a mechanic used to give slower characters options and make their sluggishness worth something. The reason armor on his Side B hurts the overall game is not only that it's a fast move, but also that the character is tiny. Furthermore, once he gets in with it, he's in for good unless your character has a great OOS option. Buffer a roll away and he just Side B's after you again, covers all options. Grab works sometimes but it shouldn't be the only option against it. The move ignores half of all attacks out there (the damn thing ignores a sweetspotted Wario Bair, what. the hell... also Ike's Fair at the hilt) and it pressures shields AND it combos if it connects or pokes. I really just don't see the reasoning and unless I'm missing something huge, I think it's really bad design.

I agree, the armor only rewards you at a lower, slower level of gameplay. It's like the alternative to giving everyone shines. lucas can Down-b like a spacie and he's auto good. Lets not do that with everycharacter, lets instead give them armor......

seriously though Squirtle is the gimmickiest gimmick in the history of gimmicky characters. Just make him evolve into blastoise and he'll be good.