Which is More Broken? #1

[hungrybox]

An epic debate that was started by our very own Evan "PB&J" Holland.


Which is more broken?

a) Jump-Cancelled Rest (Jigglypuff)

b) Nana with Shine (Ice Climbers)

 

[otg]

A )

 

[Nø Ca$h]

can you explain "nana with shine"? does that mean only nana can shine or can popo do it too?

 

[hungrybox]

I personally say JC Rest. You could pressure like Fox does, but with REST...

Like, Seriously? Think of how easy it is for fox to land a shine - with Jiggs, there is no more punishment for missing a rest, you just keep doing a rest every frame on a body until you get it.

And then DOUBLE rests in two frames???

The possibilities are infinite...







But I gotta give props to the other side as well.

WD-Shining Nana constantly around Popo while he blizzards?
ANY Shine into an IC-grab or wobble?
JC Nana Shine while grabbing to add stun?
Downsmash Shine Jab Infinite?
Nana holding the edge with shine repeat while Popo charges Upsmash ON the edge???

 

[otg]

The problem with B is the insane technical prowess it would require to be as efficient or as deadly as A.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

if u shield vs A) you die. if you spotdodge vs A) you die. if you roll vs A) you die.

 

[KirbyKaze]

A is better because it replaces all forms of defensive tactics. Why roll? Rest has 20-something frames of invincibility and auto-deaths them if they're not spaced, making it strictly superior to sidestep, and frequently superior to shielding, rolling, WD oos, etc.

It also automatically shield breaks, and forms ridiculous offstage combos.

If you can JC it on frame 1 you can double Rest for instant KO.

It's strictly better.

Shine doesn't help ICs that much. They can set up better, but ICs with Shine doesn't beat everything in the game through invincibility abuse and instant KOs in the same way that a JCable Rest does. It's a parry, death combo, superior sidestep, and several other things all at once. That's too much versatility and it covers too many things.

ICs with Shine have the limitation of the single frame of invincibility, the low range, the fact that ICs aren't mobile in the air, the execution demand of something like that, and the low shield stun of the Shine. And other things. Plus the Shine just knocks down some characters. Which makes it non-guaranteed as an automatic stock.

 

[_lemons]

itt kirbykaze wins

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can't even camp Puff if she has JC Rest because she can just Rest JC Rest over and over as you SHDL or SHL.

Granted that would take some finger stamina but like seriously wtf do you do.

You whiff anything on her within a certain range, she just Restdashes into you and Rests. What the broken.

 

[Zodiac]

Jigg's is broken enough as it is. I say A

 

[Dark Hart]

A )

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

doesn't a jump take like 6 frames for puff so there is some lag and you can't really combo as sexy as you think?

 

[Velox]

brawl sucks

 

[metalreflectslime]

A. because B. would really be that helpful unless you are super technical / smart. Can I pick the next question? What is more broken?

[size=+3]A. Two foxes as one character (like how ICs is composed of Popo and Nana)[/size]

[size=+3]or[/size]

[size=+3]B. Jigglypuff with a shine.[/size]

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i have a hunch the next one will have falco with the knee.

 

[otg]

JC Rest is probably the most broken thing that could happen in this game.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

i have a hunch the next one will have falco with the knee.

How about a character with the knee, shine, rest. Heavy weight floaty with five jumps. Pound recovery. JC rest. Sheiks needles, and why not Ice climbers wave dash and 2 character aspect. Complete with faclo's lazer with a side of C. Faclon's speed.

 

[FoxLisk]

can i propose one?

A) jiggs with JC rest where you can't JC until like 5 frames after invincibility ends or

B) Falco with 6 jumps

okay this basically reduces this metagame to falco vs jiggs (any time falco lands a shine he takes a stock, like 90% of the time as opposed to like 15% of the time now and any time jiggs lads a shine er rest she gets a stock like 90% of the time and has no punishment ever), it's basically which of these modded characters wins. I would say its gay falco 55:45 gay jiggs but idk

 

[metalreflectslime]

can i propose one?

A) jiggs with JC rest where you can't JC until like 5 frames after invincibility ends or

B) Falco with 6 jumps

okay this basically reduces this metagame to falco vs jiggs (any time falco lands a shine he takes a stock, like 90% of the time as opposed to like 15% of the time now and any time jiggs lads a shine er rest she gets a stock like 90% of the time and has no punishment ever), it's basically which of these modded characters wins. I would say its gay falco 55:45 gay jiggs but idk

Let's wait until people discuss my proposal first before we start on yours.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

this thread idea is gay just play smash 64

 

[KirbyKaze]

A. because B. would really be that helpful unless you are super technical / smart. Can I pick the next question? What is more broken?

[size=+3]A. Two foxes as one character (like how ICs is composed of Popo and Nana)[/size]

[size=+3]or[/size]

[size=+3]B. Jigglypuff with a shine.[/size]

You guys ****ing suck at this.

A by like a mile.

Two Foxes outcamp EVERYONE BY A MILE (4 lasers per SHDL is STUPID plus shine to reflect other projectiles while the other can still drillshine or DD grab or whatever is gross), get super easy grabs together, have a super easy time doing tandem grab combos, have the best pressure EVER (Bair Bair Shine, can't be grabbed or the other just spams Drillshine and other crap to beat the grab break).

Jigglypuff with Shine ****ing sucks compared to Rest, Puff already has good gimping and onstage she can't follow it fast enough. It requires her to be close and in most MUs she's a character built on max ranging and staying safe with range. Shine doesn't facilitate anything she's good at as a character AT ALL. She doesn't have the speed to follow Falco's. And for Fox's, her wavedash is too slow and too short for her to be able to do anything stupid like waveshine Rest (which would be better on Fox anyway). And that assumes she's allowed 2 down+Bs, which I guess is okay since we're like "which is more broken" but seriously dual Fox is UNBEATABLE for any single character currently existing in this game, even if it's done like ICs. The speed, ability to create openings, get stupid combos, camp, infinite, kill, and gimp is just... unreal. If you can somehow desynch their recoveries, it's like stupid to edgeguard the Popo Fox because Nana can just Firefox into the edgeguarder. At worst you wind up fighting someone as Fox. The worst case scenario is you're Fox. Like what the hell is that.

Too many of Fox's weaknesses get removed by the second character and he gains too many strengths too.

 

[joeplicate]

omg fox climbers would be too beast

 

[ss118]

We should re-name this thread "propose two broken things and have kirbykaze **** at picking the better one."

=)

In an attempt to make a hard one, what would be more broken; Luigi with greater air mobility than Jigglypuff, or Link with Marth's sword(involving its range and the use of tippers)?

 

[metalreflectslime]

Luigi with greater air mobility than Jigglypuff

This needs to be clearly defined.

 

[ss118]

The difference between Jigglypuff and Luigi's air mobility would be equal to the difference between Jigglypuff's and the character with the second highest air mobility.

 

[KirbyKaze]

We should re-name this thread "propose two broken things and have kirbykaze **** at picking the better one."

=)

In an attempt to make a hard one, what would be more broken; Luigi with greater air mobility than Jigglypuff, or Link with Marth's sword(involving its range and the use of tippers)?

lol I wish I could take credit but these are like ezmode.

I haven't thought too hard about this one but let me try it







(A) Sheik with Falco's Shine replacing her down+B (for intents and purposes Sheik is a selectable character independent of Zelda now)

(B) Sheik with Jigglypuff's aerial mobility, and an extra double jump (height gain is equal to Kirby's first double jump). Her fall speed is unaltered, her short hop is unaltered, her full jump is unaltered. She does her current double jump first, then the one she ripped from Kirby.



Go!

 

[Strong Badam]

doesn't a jump take like 6 frames for puff so there is some lag and you can't really combo as sexy as you think?

aerial Jump Cancel would take 1 frame
btw it takes 5 frames for Puff to jump.

 

[DippnDots]

A: Because only real ninjas should fly.

 

[ss118]

I feel like having Falco's shine would be more broken.

Sheik's two even match-ups in this game are Fox and Falco, imo. Now you have given her amazing combo potential against both of them; the difference being from what she has now is the ease at which she can now start and continue combos. You also have an even better OoS game against the cast, and though you don't have a spike like falco you do have a slap that has a pillar-like effect in combination with shine.

That's scary, actually. Auto-cancelled fair -> shine pillar. Not to mention the potential of shine -> JC grab against shield, as well as stupid stuff like shine -> waveland on platform -> f-tilt or grab(against Link or other chainthrowables lol) -> ****.

You also have dash attack, which can even lead to stuff like waveshine on FD against FFers to mid percents and into continuous dash attacks into fair. If they DI anything off the stage... well, their loss. =V

Finally, you actually retain falco's shine -> up B combo, but sacrifice power for speed and reliability since you hit faster and are immune by the time they could [potentially] do anything. Jigs go get shine shine -> up B on YS.

Oh yeah, against jiggs it helps because sheiks can replace grabs with shines and stuffs. Maybe air mobility is superior in this match-up, but I still would take the shine.

My 7.5 cents, anyway.

 

[Strong Badam]

extra aerial mobility & another jump with sheik lol. no contest
recovery would be better.
combo game would be better.

sheik doesn't even have a proper downward sending attack for shine to be as affective as it can. shine -> fair sounds hilarious though.

additionally for shine to work you have to hit with it in the first place. Sheik typically gets hits in starting from grabs or punishing spacing errors; you wouldn't be able to simply jump in and shine -> combo. tech chase into shine I can see happening though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

shine uair is strictly better than shine up+b w/ sheik

i think one of the big boons is the extra double jump

one of the biggest reasons sheik struggles with characters is that she's got such an ezmode recovery to ****

adding a jump and aerial mobility helps this significantly

though automatic death combos on ffers are also good lolol

shine grab pressure is also good





I think the recovery and onstage zoning improvement might be worth more. The jump and mobility enable a lot of combos she otherwise doesn't get. And lets her attack positions she otherwise struggles with.

Death combos on FFers and an easy answer to Puff's duck (well, CC in general without depending on grab) are good counter-arguments though lolol

 

[ss118]

shine uair is strictly better than shine up+b w/ sheik

Shine -> up b would be cooler and sexier. ;D

Yeah, anyone want to elaborate on my Link and Luigi one? I'm sorry it didn't involve shine / rest at all.

 

[DippnDots]

Falco with C.Falcon's DD vrs Fox with falco's lasers... and marths sword (gotta level it a bit)

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ ss118

That's hard because I'm not sure what you mean by tippers and stuff

Link's moves do more damage than Marths by and large

Does he keep his existing moveset but then get upgraded to Marth aerial speed and range?

What are his "tipper" damages and "regular" damages?

 

[Pikaville]

Sheik with Falco's shine........drools.

In answer to the OP's question.

I would say a) Because all forms of dodging would become useless.

It's a tough one though, Nana with shine could get gay.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nana with Shine is gay on hit/grab only

Puff with JC Rest is gay on hit/whiff/block/always and forever and ever wtf broken why grab automatic shield break **** wtffffff no tech skill required just down+b / jump forward 4 times there's so much ****ing stun wtffffffffffff or restdash a bunch wtffffffffffffffffffffffff

 

[ss118]

Imagine if Link had his existing moveset but only had Marth's sword.

His moveset is the same, but his slashing moves have slightly longer reach. Not to mention that there is a tipper now for all of his slashing moves(tap A, tilts, smashes, f/u/d - air, up B). He keeps everything else, and gains nothing else new.

And I guess to elaborate a bit further, I assumed his non-tippers would be his current moves, where-as his tippers would be buffed in similar fashion as to Marths(seeing as he is using Marth's sword).

So yes, tipper dair spikes and lasts a ****ing long time. God damn.

To make up for it, give Luigi the difference in air mobility between Jiggs and the character with the second most air mobility over Jiggs(so that Jiggs - 2nd Most Air Mobile = Luigi - Jiggs), as well as give Luigi's coin hit on hit up b the ability to stun foes on the ground(aka like mewtwo's down b), and cause people in the air to go into freefall.

So in short;

What is more broken; a Luigi with greater air mobility than Jigglypuff and a usable up B, or Link using Marth's sword?

 

[Strong Badam]

neither of them can stand up to the might of KactuarKaze

 

[DippnDots]

probably weegi if you're making him that mobile

 

[ss118]

@ dot - I mean, Fox is stupid. Falco's lasers are stupid. Marth's sword is stupid. And he has all three?

Will have two, plz!