Where you AGT? The Official Toon Link General Discussion/ Video Thread!

[Deleted member]

Oh also forgot to mention here that I double eliminated oracle on saturday
Soooooo yeah I'm kind of sort of getting more results

 

[jtm94]

Alright, I will await on one of the best to help with the MUs. Really curious to see TL's spread.

Got more done. Purple is for unknown MUs

 

[Jolteon]

Dunno if I'm really too comfortable about working on a MU spread atm, the metagame is young and there's a lot of chars I have very little MU knowledge on just because there are so many of them.

I need help in the Sonic and Roy matchups. Any tips on what to do vs them? I get overwhelmed by Sonic's speed and Roy just feels like a toon link counter to me >_>.

I'll see if i can get some vids this saturday of my PM Toon Link in the tournament. Hopefully I can get better than 4th unlike last tournament, where I got 4th, I know I can, but I need to learn those 2 matchups.

Roy: Avoid being baited by his DD game and wait until a bomb hits him before going in, can use the boomerang to cut off the areas that he can DD in and put him towards a corner (much easier to pin down/harder to get baited into a grab). If he corners you and puts up his shield (anticipating a pre-emptive bomb toss that he can wd oos -> punish) then just hold on to your bomb and wait, toss the bomb if he panicks and does something OOS or otherwise just enjoy the free shield damage he causes himself until your bomb is about to explode. For combos: vertical juggles with uair chains, usmash etc. work super well. uthrow -> uair works afaik, as does uthrow -> up+b at killing %s (same with most chars that have a similar weight class to Roy except uthrow -> usmash doesn't combo on Roy iirc), afaik you can dthrow cg him at like.. 40? To nearly 100 or something. Or at least I've had success doing so. I need to play vs Roy more to optimise punishes on him but that's a rough idea of what I go for.

Sonic: Use well-spaced bairs/nairs to keep Sonic honest in his approaches, like you said his speed is crazy and if you ever drop your focus vs a good Sonic it can mean a lot of trouble/pressure. Practice and get *very* comfortable with making good OOS decisions and making them quickly (usually wd/nair oos), otherwise he won't let you breathe. Can z-drop bombs vs very spin-happy players (not such a big deal after 2.5 though), bombs/rang work but are also very punishable, so try and experiment with when you can use those moves without getting punished. Sonic can be tricky to combo as he can escape with up+b -> auto cancel dair and reset the game to neutral any time he is not in hitstun, but given his light weight I've found that bair chains and repeated nairs -> fair can be basic effective combos. Also make sure to respect his uair, has surprisingly large range on it and it's difficult to DI away from. I have a video in the OP vs fuzzy's sonic if you want to watch that.

 

[jtm94]

This isn't a definitive end-all be-all MU spread, this is a snapshot of "now."

Too many people are reluctant to talk about MUs, and I understand the meta is very young for a lot of chars, but some of the MUs have been figured out to some extent.

I've been trying TL out and he's pretty tough to use, I just can't figure out how to play him.

 

[internetmovieguy]

Toon Link is Awesome.
I know he can be easily gimped and since he's a fast faller he's combo food but are there any other weaknesses i should watch out for?

 

[internetmovieguy]

I need help in the Sonic and Roy matchups. Any tips on what to do vs them? I get overwhelmed by Sonic's speed and Roy just feels like a toon link counter to me >_>.

I'll see if i can get some vids this saturday of my PM Toon Link in the tournament. Hopefully I can get better than 4th unlike last tournament, where I got 4th, I know I can, but I need to learn those 2 matchups.

CROUCH CANCEL!
Don't block his attacks just throw out b-airs or n-airs or crouch cancel them.
Sonic has terrible priority on all his moves except up air and up smash. and you have a sword.
(in his game spikes are sonic's weakness)
You can actually approach him with shnff back airs and he won't have much to answer with.
Your moves beat his moves! I can't stress this enough.
Don't throw out grabs unless its guaranteed to get him (hit stun on ground)
Don't play your typical campy game against him. Use your camps to lure him in then punish with a back air
If he grabs you at around 80% try to DI down and in front of him, his up throw (unless its over the edge)
Respect his up air!!!
as a general rule: When judging your distance to decide what projectile to use, and if its safe to use it, a safe distance is 1.5 times the normal safe distance (2.0 against captain falcon).
I think your Dair fire spike beats homeing attack (needs testing to confirm)
Remember that he is traditionally a "bait and punish" Character so don't throw out anything with too much lag.
If he runs don't chase as he can easily turn around and punish you. instead see how far he goes and the depending of the distance you should camp and lure him (long distance) or punish is bait with an aerial. A good sonic will stay just out of reach of your sword but close enough to punish you pulling out a bomb.


I main sonic so i know what i am talking about. sorry about have a lot to read.


I can't help with Roy

 

[Jolteon]

Jtm: I'll post up my thoughts when I get home.

 

[Waite]

So I just finished reading this entire thread from top to bottom, and I managed about three-and-a-half Post-It notes worth of info (they're easier to stick around my TV for quick reference).

I've been really digging into Toon Link research for the past month, and I've got a couple of tournaments coming up this month that I'm hoping to test that knowledge with. However, I do have a super noobish question: how do Z-drop a bomb so it doesn't explode? I've been trying to figure it out for the past couple of days with no joy.

 

[Juushichi]

Jtm: I'll post up my thoughts when I get home.

Jolt: TL 6-4s everyone not Fox, Marth, [insert character here]. Those MUs are 5-5.

@ Waite : Z drop it just as you are landing.

 

[internetmovieguy]

So I just finished reading this entire thread from top to bottom, and I managed about three-and-a-half Post-It notes worth of info (they're easier to stick around my TV for quick reference).

I've been really digging into Toon Link research for the past month, and I've got a couple of tournaments coming up this month that I'm hoping to test that knowledge with. However, I do have a super noobish question: how do Z-drop a bomb so it doesn't explode? I've been trying to figure it out for the past couple of days with no joy.

When your facing an opponent that is still alive at above 180% you should try and land a b-air which will kill at those high percents.
It's fast, easy to use and safe to use. I only mention this because not enough toon links are looking for it. I am not saying that you opponent should be getting to those percents i am just saying that it is your best option at that point.

 

[internetmovieguy]

This isn't a definitive end-all be-all MU spread, this is a snapshot of "now."

Too many people are reluctant to talk about MUs, and I understand the meta is very young for a lot of chars, but some of the MUs have been figured out to some extent.

I've been trying TL out and he's pretty tough to use, I just can't figure out how to play him.

Toon link has no bad match ups. Just match ups that he doesn't dominate.

 

[Deleted member]

Toonlink does have bad matchups. No characters really auto counter him but there are characters that definitely beat him.
Main point: Toonlink can win a tourney without secondaries unlike some of the PM cast

 

[jtm94]

Playing as TL, I have a few questions, feel free to redirect me to somewhere.

What throws should I be going for in situations? I most ALWAYS go for downthrow, and either tech chase, ftilt, utilt or upsmash. Is it possible to downthrow into fsmash??
I noticed bthrow and fthrow don't have that much KB at all, so they work to set up tech chases on faster fallers.

When are arrows useful over bombs or arrows?

Is the dair meteor useful at all?

 

[Waite]

When are arrows useful over bombs or arrows?

My priority list usually goes something like this:

Bombs
'Rang
Arrows

If rang is out, and I'm getting pressured, then arrows.

If edgeguarding, bombs or angled 'rang.

Generally, I keep them fairly low priority, but they do help me mix up my approach, so on occasion I can land a quick arrow to usmash. Your mileage may vary, but this tends to work pretty well for me.

 

[Juker]

Playing as TL, I have a few questions, feel free to redirect me to somewhere.

What throws should I be going for in situations? I most ALWAYS go for downthrow, and either tech chase, ftilt, utilt or upsmash. Is it possible to downthrow into fsmash??
I noticed bthrow and fthrow don't have that much KB at all, so they work to set up tech chases on faster fallers.

When are arrows useful over bombs or arrows?

Is the dair meteor useful at all?

Down throw can go into fsmash. It depends on the other character's characteristics and percent, along with DI, but at the right time, it's not as hard as it may seem.

I find arrows very useful, and they can be surprising if you fast-fall them; they're a useful tool in combination with your boomerang and bombs, especially considering they are the quickest and don't have a limit to them like the boomerang, or bombs to an extent. They're probably my primary approach, and can hit confirm into a grab perfectly, which boomerang does not do well. Bombs and arrows into grab both work well, boomerangs characteristics on hit don't lend well to a followed up grab, from my experience. They also are good to follow up with an Usmash.

If you watch some videos of... I want to say Lunchables, he uses the dair spike; I may have the wrong person. But I know I've seen some videos of a Tink that seems to actively go for it from time to time. It looks plenty viable, but is probably usually not your best option. Sometimes when you get that feeling where you know you'll probably connect, I'd go for it, but I'd say it's usually better to go for a different aerial.

PS. when considering spikes, the dtilt works really well against characters with open recoveries like Snake as a mix up. It can be surprising and if they don't approach the edge perfectly can be an easy kill at any percent.

 

[Deleted member]

I fire spike a lot. It's so delicious because if your opponent doesn't know toonlink at all he has some pretty good setups into firespike vs people that aren't familiar

also I like arrows over bombs in a few situations. If my opponent and I are in a situation where I'm far away from him, he got hit and landed without teching, he has to get up roll, get up attack, or getup. If I just charge an arrow I cover all the options from a distance... slowly waiting

Also arrows are cool for covering distance in a short time, like lets say you and your opponent traded something and you're both falling back onstage, he's focusing on re-establishing stage control so while you're charging, Fast fall charge an arrow. He'll either get hit or has to shield it and deal with the slight bit of shield stun, giving you a chance to also make your way back on stage.

Bombs are multihit and awesome, they start combos super easily. Bombs > Arrows, but arrows are cool and I'm using them/liking them more than I have in 2.6

 

[WINK ;)]

I am not going to main TL but I want him as a secondary just because I do enjoy playing him but I like Diddy and Pit more. If I enjoy TL more I might have him as a main if I put enough work in... But to learn TL what things do I HAVE to learn? Just things to keep in mind? Bad MU's? Good MU's? Etc...

Is there an actual use for Zair with TL?

 

[WINK ;)]

Also, what is it when you Dair onto the edge of a platform? Do you have to come in at an angle for it to cancel?

 

[Player -0]

Edit your posts, don't double post. Keep in mind that I'm not a pro TLink or anything.

Post 1 - Zair can be used for quick spacing after airdodging through somethings and getting to the ground. It can be used as a sort of alternative to a wavedash if you're running and want to stop while having a hitbox out.

Post 2 - It's called ledge canceling (or is it edge canceling?), You just have to slide off the edge during the endlag of the move.

 

[WINK ;)]

Edit your posts, don't double post. Keep in mind that I'm not a pro TLink or anything.

Post 1 - Zair can be used for quick spacing after airdodging through somethings and getting to the ground. It can be used as a sort of alternative to a wavedash if you're running and want to stop while having a hitbox out.

Post 2 - It's called ledge canceling (or is it edge canceling?), You just have to slide off the edge during the endlag of the move.

It was not purposely... Haha. I was in a hurry.

Alright thanks! So for the ledge canceling must you approach at an angle? Or what?

 

[Player -0]

As long as you fall off/hit the edge it'll cancel the move/endlag. Coming at an angle certainly helps.

 

[jtm94]

Something I will pull off eventually.....

I want to AGT recover throwing bomb at my opponent on the edge, and have the bomb knock them towards me where I will fire spike them to their doom.

 

[Hulter]

I'd like to see someone try to windwaker push a bomb onto someone who's offstage for a gimp.

 

[B.W.]

I have before. And succeeded. It's not easy. But it's hilarious when it happens.

 

[Hulter]

I have before. And succeeded. It's not easy. But it's hilarious when it happens.

Have you got it recorded?

 

[Jolteon]

Spoiler: My opinion on match-ups so far

Wario - 6:4
Mario - 4:6
Peach - 6:4
Wolf - 4:6
Fox - 45:55
Falco - 45:55 (maybe 4:6)
ICs - 7:3
Sheik - 55:45
Link - 55:45
Ganon - 65:35 (maybe 7:3)
Mewtwo - 6:4
Lucario - 6:4
Squirtle - 55:45
Ivysaur - 5:5
Charizard - 6:4
Samus - 6:4
ZSS - 45:55
Lucas - 6:4
Pit - 5:5
Kirby - 55:45
MK - 5:5
Ike - 6:4
Marth - 6:4
Olimar - 5:5
ROB - 55:45
G&W - 65:35
Snake - 5:5
Sonic - 55:45

Others: idk

Playing as TL, I have a few questions, feel free to redirect me to somewhere.

What throws should I be going for in situations? I most ALWAYS go for downthrow, and either tech chase, ftilt, utilt or upsmash. Is it possible to downthrow into fsmash??
I noticed bthrow and fthrow don't have that much KB at all, so they work to set up tech chases on faster fallers.

When are arrows useful over bombs or arrows?

Is the dair meteor useful at all?

Throws: dthrow is the most universal throw for punishes - it can CG a lot of chars (semi-FFers like MK/Roy/Diddy in particular) and has good followups on anyone who is not too heavy (e.g. Samus). vs not-Samus floaties you can do dthrow -> FJ double bair -> bair -> bair/uair depending on DI and dthrow -> dair to kill (replace with up+b/uair when dthrow -> dair is at a % where the spike will hit which is roughly 110%), mid-weights you want to dthrow -> usmash at 0 and then do dthrow -> bair at like 30+ and then dthrow -> uair when it combos (typically at 40-60), at like 70-80 you can go for dthrow -> fsmash and finally at higher percents go for dthrow -> up+b. You can combo fastfallers/semi-FFers with uthrow -> usmash/uair (usmash doesn't work on like Roy/Falcon iirc) and kill with uthrow -> up+b, or you can do uthrow -> usmash double hit -> regrab on spacies at 0.

vs heavyweights I like doing uthrow -> wait -> uair juggle, can do dthrow -> stuff when you get to mid %s also. dthrow -> utilt/jab at 0 will work on most heavyweights but doesn't lead to a lot so I prefer the positional advantage that uthrow offers.

bthrow's main use I've found is to edgeguard fastfallers, but it's extremely useful in that regard. It sends at a very low angle so you can do bthrow -> edgehog up+b or bthrow -> nair offstage -> up+b to the edge. fthrow is much more complexed/nuanced than his other throws are, you can use it to tech chase FFers at the edge for an easy follow-up or use it when you know they are going to DI into you, fthrow is not bad by any means but it's fairly hard to find an optimal use for it since his other 3 throws are really, really good.

Arrows: These have a much quicker start-up than rang and are also very good at hitconfirming, so you can use it to hit someone airbourne when you don't have enough time to hit them with rang for example. The other large advantage it has is the range it offers on a full charge, can be useful for full screen battles vs characters with poor/limited projectile games. You can also utilise the range to hit characters with linear recoveries and then go out and hit them for free.

dair: The "meteor" hit is actually a spike and it is by far the most powerful spike in the game. It's super hard to hit off-stage and I've just written it off as unreliable (willing to be proven wrong however). Two uses I have found for it: 1) You can dthrow -> fire spike Pit at mid %s if he DIs off stage, 2) You can dthrow -> fire spike (onstage) against someone whose % is just slightly too low to die to dthrow -> up+b. It does 21 dmg, sets up for a tech chase and if they aren't expecting it/don't tech it combos into a late ground bounce pogo hit which can actually combo into an up+b afterwards.

 

[Juker]

Jolteon, are you still going to post you MU thoughts? Curious to see.

 

[Jolteon]

I did at the top of my last post. <_<;

 

[Juker]

I did at the top of my last post. <_<;

Apparently I'm the worst. Thanks!

Edit: What are your thoughts on the Sonic MU. I feel that MU is a harder one for TL. I'm wondering what makes you say it's 55:45? I could just be approaching it wrong; I don't have nearly as much experience with TL as I do some other characters, but I've been playing him lately. Thanks again.

 

[B.W.]

Sadly no it easy recorded. The memory is only for me and the guy I did it to unless I can manage to do it again.

 

[jtm94]

Thank you for the info! Much appreciated.

I can't wait to try back throw on spacies, and I did not know his fire dair was a spike.

 

[Deleted member]

Spoiler: My opinion on match-ups so far

Wario - 6:4
Mario - 4:6
Peach - 6:4
Wolf - 4:6
Fox - 45:55
Falco - 45:55 (maybe 4:6)
ICs - 7:3
Sheik - 55:45
Link - 55:45
Ganon - 65:35 (maybe 7:3)
Mewtwo - 6:4
Lucario - 6:4
Squirtle - 55:45
Ivysaur - 5:5
Charizard - 6:4
Samus - 6:4
ZSS - 45:55
Lucas - 6:4
Pit - 5:5
Kirby - 55:45
MK - 5:5
Ike - 6:4
Marth - 6:4
Olimar - 5:5
ROB - 55:45
G&W - 65:35
Snake - 5:5
Sonic - 55:45

Others: idk

I actually agree with these mu numbers... I could barely make any changes. I might fill in the spaces that you don't know, but I'm lazy right now. Maybe later?

 

[Player -0]

The windwaker taunt has a wind effect?

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, when the SFX plays he very slightly moves anyone who is close to him.

 

[Juker]

I played a bunch of matches vs sonic tonight and I think I may have to disagree with myself. I think your right. I think the match-up may be closer to 50:50, or what you said.

 

[Jolteon]

Re: Sonic - I could see it being 55:45 either way, or even, but am currently leaning towards 55:45 TL as he has many tools that are particularly good vs Sonic. Primarily his nair covering many options in neutral, disjoints, his bair being safe with good reward, having a relatively good combo game on him, having the speed/oos options to mitigate his pressure and many ways to kill him at high percents.

Zach: sounds good to me.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Just a quick question, is there different AGT lengths? Because when I am practicing, i always appear to AGT, but sometimes i don't up b into the bomb. I read in this thread that you are supposed to save your 2nd jump, is that required or does it just make it easier. Thanks for any help!

*Edit* Also, do we have a time frame on when we will get wall grapple as tink? I feel that will really help his recovery from really low, where it suffers (from what I have read). *Edit*

 

[Hulter]

Just a quick question, is there different AGT lengths? Because when I am practicing, i always appear to AGT, but sometimes i don't up b into the bomb. I read in this thread that you are supposed to save your 2nd jump, is that required or does it just make it easier. Thanks for any help!

*Edit* Also, do we have a time frame on when we will get wall grapple as tink? I feel that will really help his recovery from really low, where it suffers (from what I have read). *Edit*

Not reaching up to the bomb is simply a matter of poor timing. It'll come along with just a little bit of practice. It's easier than it looks.

Saving the second jump is just generally a good idea, I reckon. Regardless, it is in no way, shape or form necessary for bomb jumping.

You can't wall grapple in PM (yet).

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Just tried it out and I am starting to get more consistent results. About the wall grapple, I was aware you couldn't yet, but I was wondering if we had any idea when they would be able to implement it (if ever). I thought I heard somewhere they were having difficulties, so they are trying.

 

[Juushichi]

Here is a set of my TL in pools vs Mark's Ness @50:45-01:03:40. Critique and stuff, pls as I am very new w/ this char. ^_^ Sorry in advance for bad gameplay. @_@