Where you AGT? The Official Toon Link General Discussion/ Video Thread!

[tauKhan]

I've been cutting a lot of wavelands short then. Any advice/visual cue for the longest waveland variant for every character? Each time I try 100% horizontal I just airdodge with half the character above the platform and half below.

I think you need to have downward momentum in order to be able to land with most chars. So with most characters the longest waveland is a result of slightest possible downward angle. 100% horizontal will not land unless you are already falling, or your character has weird dj properties (yoshi, peach, don't know about others.) I tested with tl and couldn't land with 100% horizontal ever.

 

[Player -0]

I think you need to have downward momentum in order to be able to land with most chars. So with most characters the longest waveland is a result of slightest possible downward angle. 100% horizontal will not land unless you are already falling, or your character has weird dj properties (yoshi, peach, don't know about others.) I tested with tl and couldn't land with 100% horizontal ever.

I've done it with CF I think before and the timing is really tight. You kind of have to be almost in the ground. I think I did it right though.

I was mainly referring to platforms though.

Edit - For the first part I mean just Short hopping with some momentum and then wavelanding the same ground I hopped off of.

 

[tauKhan]

If you are falling, you can indeed do 100% side regardless of char I think, but I don't think it's worth the risk. Just slight down will get you almost as much speed with lower risk.

 

[TLMSheikant]

finally got some TL vids to look at for critique and improving myself at a weekly. http://www.twitch.tv/kraverick/b/528899533 32:00 for the first set of my Toon Link vs iDare's Metaknight. Caught me off guard first game, knew nothing of MK, he usually went lucario against me, made a nice comeback first game though. 2:04:00 I believe for the second set. It's a TL ditto (there's 3 Toon Links here including me in PM lol). We thought it was winners finals due to miscommunication before the match, that's why went to game 4 on battlefield. Anyway, I'd like a critique. :V
‎
We couldn't finish due to time constraints sadly, it was a free tourney for improvement anyway.

 

[bur]

Is there a video on how to zair bomb?

 

[B.W.]

No because T.Link's Z-Air bombs sucks.

 

[-_Face_-]

No because T.Link's Z-Air bombs sucks.

it really does seem like one of those "hey look what I can do!" things.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, hitting the bomb with tinks zair kind of sort of does nothing important
Here on IGN we give it a 2/10

 

[bur]

Aw, I want to be fancy too.

 

[BombTicker]

Turning off tap jump allows you to have more freedom to do it without losing your jump. Especially since in Project M tilt air dodges don't go as far as fully pushed air dodges. You can do it quicker without having to worry about it. I suppose the real question I have is why 'not' turn it off with TL?

Lol I've used tap jump for as long as I can remember, anyone who is using it really just use x or y, preferably y because multishines mah ni gga! But really tap jump has helped me but for every 1 thing it helps me with it punishes me in 2 more ways. For example with tap jump I can throw out an aerials literally as soon as the game will allow after leaving the ground when full hopping, or full jumping, or whatever you call it, because I can use the c stick to throw the aerial out then while the control stick for jumping. I guess this could be achieved by using Z which is commonly seen as awkward or uncomfortable but is actually pretty nice if you get used to it and you can l cancel with Z almost thoughtlessly. But terrible things come into your play when you use tap jump that in my opinion far outweigh the advantages. For example I still have to use x or y for short hopping fox and sheik who are my melee mains which was confusing at first to shorthop with one button and fullhop with control stick. But I have also felt some kind of mental simplification can be reached by using as many different controls for things as possible, for me at least since I use tap jump for full hops, X for shorthops, X+R wavedashes, R sheild, Z neutral airs, Cstick directional aerials, Y+B waveshines and multishines, L for Lcanceling (I know cliche) chain/whip characters whose Z air is a tether attack like Link or Samus, Z for L canceling other characters with regular nairs, and the A button +control stick for smash attacks (When minimally charged they come out a frame earlier than when csticked, it hardly matters but it's good to use in my opinion as you can also charge one if you change your mind as opposed to having to click Z while using Cstick to charge a smash attack like you normally would) . I haven't really found a use for the dpad yet as I am not really into taunting because I prefer to practice tech skill between stocks and I don't play much snake so if anyone knows anything good to bind it to let me know lol. But I feel as if these different controls encourage me to use them all as they're all separate controls reminding me that they exist and they force me to use all I have and really mix it up. Another disadvantage of using the control stick to jump is that you may have trouble with characters who can change direction in mid air using a jump like puff, kirby, ddd, or pitt. The problem with this is that you have to press up on the control stick then stop pressing up and choose a direction to float to, this is just really annoying when you want to jump and then immediately move to the left while facing right as you will be turned around and may not be able to use the aerial you wanted, a common example would be puff's back air, if you turn around then you use the fair which sucks ass usually. I'd say the absolute worst thing to do on control stick is multishining, because if you mistime it you use your up b, which for fox is pretty much an SD because if you do it on stage biaccident then you won't be ready to change direction and will shoot wherever you are facing which is often off the stage. When I did use control stick for multishining I was able to "somewhat" make it work as I could do it but it took FAR too much practice than it should have and even with all that practice SDs with accidental up bs were still frequent. I also had a work around for anyone that actually HAS to use the control stick to jump, it is not as fast as a regular multishine but it can come close to the speed of a multishine with extraneous practice that wouldn't be necessary with X or Y jump users, what you can do is waveshine directly downwards repeatedly, it has a similar effect to multishining, but doesn't require you to be efficient in using x/yjump. In case anyone doesn't know what that means you press [Down B]----> [X or Y]---->[R or L]+[down on control stick]----->[Down B]-->{rinse and repeat}. Long story short, unless it is to build game sense, skill or to inhance mix ups, don't tap jump people. tl:dr; Tap jump sucks ass. I know this is a VERY old comment I'm responding to but I just wanted to put this info out there anyways.

 

[BombTicker]

I think you need to have downward momentum in order to be able to land with most chars. So with most characters the longest waveland is a result of slightest possible downward angle. 100% horizontal will not land unless you are already falling, or your character has weird dj properties (yoshi, peach, don't know about others.) I tested with tl and couldn't land with 100% horizontal ever.

I find the terminal side of 315 or 225 degrees perfect, if not, good enough. I don't really go for fancy crazy angle wavedashes unless it's the other way more towards 270 degrees to meet a wavedash backwards to ledge grab when I'm very close to the edge.

 

[-_Face_-]

Is it worth the effort to always do JC grabs out of dash? If you missed you're pretty boned either way. Just wondering what other people do.

 

[B.W.]

Any bit of safety you can have is worth it even if it's only a few frames.

 

[-_Face_-]

it's possible to b-reverse arrow right? I can only ever seem to wave bounce it....pretty sure I'm using the right terms...

Basically I only ever change direction AND momentum with an arrow, I'm wondering if / how I can only change direction with an arrow

 

[Player -0]

it's possible to b-reverse arrow right? I can only ever seem to wave bounce it....pretty sure I'm using the right terms...

Basically I only ever change direction AND momentum with an arrow, I'm wondering if / how I can only change direction with an arrow

Tap the opposite direction direction, return to neutral, then hit B.

That btw is a Turnaround B (Turn direction, but not momentum).

B-reverse is changing direction and momentum.

Wavebounce is a combination of Turnaround B and a B-Reverse, changing your momentum but not your direction.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Can we get frame data please? It would really help out Toon Link

 

[R_Panda]

I asked about this weeks ago but it looks like we'll have to do the work ourselves. I'm looking into it now with Brawlbox, though I don't know what I'm doing yet.

 

[Zero May Cry]

Critique my TL please? Looking into him to compliment my main in Ness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX4kY8doblU

 

[Deleted member]

those textures are too much... Cooking mama tho?

 

[Zero May Cry]

Yep. Me as cooking mama and OpaqueOne as, well, the opaque one. Black Roy. It's Theytah's build, and it's awesome. Any critique though? You're like the master of this TL stuff Lunchables. I'll add another video of me fighting a Mewtwo here in a moment

EDIT: Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD7v8kkjdIM

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

When we play Theytah's Build I actually play as Cooking Mama too. Makes for some really raunchy jokes.

But anywho. You had a pretty nice string going on around 3:47, but then you just kinda ran away and dropped it. You seem afraid to commit to anything. Camping with projectiles in neutral isn't really what you should be going for with Tink. I would suggest you work on your L-cancelling so you can SHFFL your approaches. Hmm, actually, tech in general. AGTing is very important for Tink too, so try to pick it up.

 

[Zero May Cry]

First off, thanks for your input Tink-er. I appreciate it. And I actually had the impression that TL was supposed to do more projectile camping in neutrual. If that's not it, what should I be going for? Also the reason I dropped that string is because I wasn't sure if I could continue it and one of the big problems in my general gameplay is (believe it or not) going in too much then getting shield grabbed. That's kind of why I don't try to commit too much because then I get punished hard. I don't have TL's Lcancels or AGT down yet; I'm working on them now. Once again, thanks for your advice.

 

[BombTicker]

When we play Theytah's Build I actually play as Cooking Mama too. Makes for some really raunchy jokes.

But anywho. You had a pretty nice string going on around 3:47, but then you just kinda ran away and dropped it. You seem afraid to commit to anything. Camping with projectiles in neutral isn't really what you should be going for with Tink. I would suggest you work on your L-cancelling so you can SHFFL your approaches. Hmm, actually, tech in general. AGTing is very important for Tink too, so try to pick it up.

I'm not trying to sound 20XX or "too" melee or anything but just play fox and samus when you are playing alone against lvl 1 bots to practice tech skill and projectile follow ups and then play tink against humans only so that you don't get used to comboing cpu di. Playing both these characters will help your tink in more ways than you can imagine as it improves many key concepts of the character such as what the guy I'm replying to said, being SFFLing your aerial approaches. You seem to struggle with both exerting and dealing with pressure to and from your opponent. Also work on your fundamentals which are exponentially more important than tech skill, by fundamentals I mean OOS option, edge guarding, stage control, spacing, wavedashing etc. For spacing play some marth vs lvl 1 cpus and try to land tipper f smashes only to get used to trying to JUST make the hit and carefully get your hitbox to collide with the tips/ends of their hurtbox so that you don't expose yourself to danger for longer than you have to, here you can also practice wavedashing while trying for tippers as you will also get used to knowing the wavedash length of your character. Edge guarding you are going to have to work with yourself and see what you like using to edge guard and what works best for how you play.

 

[Zero May Cry]

Thanks BombTicker, I'll try some of that stuff out. Still trying to work on the spacing stuff but I'll get it at some point haha.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Help me get better guys. I keep losing to the same 2 people and basically, i'm bad. Help me git gud. Every pointer helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbH8WW7AA0E

I almost brought the first game back but choked at the end. One thing that I suck at doing vs Roy is gimping him. Any tips on how to gimp Roy? It seems like he always just recovers if i try to edgehog him, he either does it fast and I get hit or he delays it and still recovers through the hog somehow. At the end I should've DI'd his down throw out, didnt know it lead to a back air I also noticed I need to trap him better with my projectiles. Idk how to do it vs a platform campy Roy honestly.

In the second one I had a super technical flop lol. It's always so embarassing when I miss a glide toss into zair. Much choking wow.
I wonder if it's really a good idea to counterpick FD. I've been counterpicking it ever since I 4 stocked Excel there a few tourneys back but it seems as though he's learned the stage or I sucked more than usual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9SdiqlcagI

Vs a local Samus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auT353T6w7o

vs the winner of the tournament. I start off decent but I still lose. I hate this matchup. I've gotten better at it, but I'm still losing to Sonic and I hate losing to Sonic. Tips here would be welcome.

 

[Theguesst]

Help me get better guys. I keep losing to the same 2 people and basically, i'm bad. Help me git gud. Every pointer helps.

Okay I started playing tink 2 weeks ago so this info might help or might be crap, take it how you will. Critiquing the first video. Use dair and fair to set up more of your kills. They are great kill moves that do the job a lot better than nair. You grabbed into dthrow and you lost your opponent 3 times, notice this earlier and go for an upthrow, which you did get kills with too. Along with that, use uair more with uthrow as you see fit.

I find tink best on smaller stages with more enclosed sides; Yoshi's, Wario, Green hill and Fountain are great tink stages. Might just be my playstyle, you throw out boomerang a lot so it might be a hinder.

You can jump cancel reverse up b and fall off the side of the stage for a quick ledge grab and then chain regrab as needed.

Hope this helps.

 

[B.W.]

You actually don't need to reverse Up-B for the spin hog trick but it's secondly easier to do that way. Be careful though because if someone takes the ledge when you try to do that you lose a stock.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I don't like small stages vs Roy. I find he has more kill setups than Toon Link and giving his fsmash and back air more kill power usually seems like a bad idea, so in that matchup I tend to go to bigger stages where I can at least zone him a bit (or try, i'm a bit bad at it still in Project M, still getting the feel for the game). And yeah, I know how to do the upb hog, but I rarely use it. It's more of a surprise thing. Doubt it would work vs roy if he sweetspots anyway. My favorite stage is Green Hill Zone and Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Wario Ware are also stages I really like. Not a fan of either Yoshi's since Melee and Brawl (I tend to ban that) but I should learn that stage as it looks like it would be really good for Toon Link. Thanks for the small critique The Guest. Anyone else got any tips/critique/help? Man, all my posts end up being walls of text. I'll stop it here.

 

[Illest_toon]

Going to a tournment at 6est to 12 est tonight and theres going to be a stream can you guys check out my toon link ill try to play on stream the whole place. http://www.twitch.tv/guaranteeddamage

 

[Illest_toon]

shameless double post -_-. My tag is oDD

 

[Deleted member]

Alright so, Jolteon! The footage on here is definitely not up to date. For my footage you can just delete what is there and copy paste this:

Lunchables:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGwP16k7v2U (vs UTDZac)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee5b3pNYlkY (vs Denti)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ1zAkDxNig (vs Luck)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYUQAVRyfho (vs Pizzacato)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO6TMRP50OI (vs Dakpo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJYxuBRy1Zg (vs Denti)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqj5PmqC4K8 (vs Denti)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVF5pwV4ht8 (vs Sethlon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THUq6JwQ2z8 (vs Dakpo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_KGG_UmqQ8 (vs Infinity, KotH3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei6JZ_VjcAQ (vs Infinity, KotH3)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPZwwZuMF44 (vs Oracle, KotH3)

Thanks!

Edit 1:

By the way, for anyone who is interested, I'm working on a toonlink guide! It will include pretty much every AT that we can think of, idk when it'll be done but I'm starting it!

Oh also I think I mentioned I was going to make a toonlink guide a during early 3.0. Well, obviously I never ended up finishing... I recorded a bit of footage but then got lazy. Now that I have dolphin and a very huge amount of knowledge on my character compared to the past, I will try to not be lazy and make a video like I said I would.

Edit 2: I decided to read some of my old posts in this thread. LOL I'm bad please don't listen to anything I say ever

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I have a few general questions?
- Is it worse fighting close combat without any helping projectiles or giving up centerstage but being able to pull a bomb
- Are there any tips for getting the fire spike
- Which moves are safe on shield
- If you have a bomb, which approaches should be prefered?

I feel so uncomfortable without frame data xD

 

[Deleted member]

uuuuuuuuugh I want a frame data thread as well, the one aliami made is from 2.6 and it was also incorrect lol

1. Toonlink can pull a bomb/throw out projectiles while keeping center stage. Just because you're getting a bomb doesn't mean you have to not be controlling the stage

2. The actual hitbox on the firespike is toonlinks head, and you have to hit with that hitbox alone. If you connect with the regular hitbox and the firespike hitbox, the regular hitbox takes priority. A good way of doing it is kind of like roys dair meteor, you approach from below and rise up with your dair. From there you either have to be creative, read bad DI, or go for a D throw firespike which depending on % and character is always going to hit

3. I don't think many of toonlinks moves are safe on shield, tbh thats one of his biggest problems IMO. You have to be very "Creative" around shields. No Nair shining because you're not fox, so doing something like a random nair on shield gets you shield grabbed. I think all of toonlinks aerials are unsafe on shield, except for dair but at the same time if you dair someones shield you pogo up and they could probably hit you out of that... Also boomerang/bombs don't do anything to shield. You have jab jab into either run away and bait the grab or jab jab grab. HOWEVER, Toonlinks footstool followups are VERY good if you have a bomb so if you know when they're going to shield, you can do that.

4. Bomb does NOTHING vs shields sadly so... theres one thing you could look out for. If you land a bomb vs your opponent you can bomb into upsmash, also recently I've noticed at low %, Bomb Fair Grab is a thing. Bombs just setup into whatever you want as long as you hit one, so you should know when you want to use juggle starters (upsmash) or kill moves (pretty much all of toonlinks aerials, aerial up b, smashes, blah blah)

 

[Chesstiger2612]

uuuuuuuuugh I want a frame data thread as well, the one aliami made is from 2.6 and it was also incorrect lol

1. Toonlink can pull a bomb/throw out projectiles while keeping center stage. Just because you're getting a bomb doesn't mean you have to not be controlling the stage

2. The actual hitbox on the firespike is toonlinks head, and you have to hit with that hitbox alone. If you connect with the regular hitbox and the firespike hitbox, the regular hitbox takes priority. A good way of doing it is kind of like roys dair meteor, you approach from below and rise up with your dair. From there you either have to be creative, read bad DI, or go for a D throw firespike which depending on % and character is always going to hit

3. I don't think many of toonlinks moves are safe on shield, tbh thats one of his biggest problems IMO. You have to be very "Creative" around shields. No Nair shining because you're not fox, so doing something like a random nair on shield gets you shield grabbed. I think all of toonlinks aerials are unsafe on shield, except for dair but at the same time if you dair someones shield you pogo up and they could probably hit you out of that... Also boomerang/bombs don't do anything to shield. You have jab jab into either run away and bait the grab or jab jab grab. HOWEVER, Toonlinks footstool followups are VERY good if you have a bomb so if you know when they're going to shield, you can do that.

4. Bomb does NOTHING vs shields sadly so... theres one thing you could look out for. If you land a bomb vs your opponent you can bomb into upsmash, also recently I've noticed at low %, Bomb Fair Grab is a thing. Bombs just setup into whatever you want as long as you hit one, so you should know when you want to use juggle starters (upsmash) or kill moves (pretty much all of toonlinks aerials, aerial up b, smashes, blah blah)

Thank you for answering those questions.
Though in 1., I was imagining a situation where pulling a bomb would get punished but you could try and run away and pull a bomb or fight without projectile while keeping your position.

 

[Deleted member]

If you're going to get punished for pulling a bomb, that means you have the time to pull out that bomb and you could instead either trade with your opponent or run to a platform and try and keep the neutral game going. If you know you'll get punished for something... don't do it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The decision I want to make is between some option like jab or aerial or run away. Is neutral game without projectiles still good enough to be prefered to losing centerstage?

 

[Deleted member]

Well if you're losing centerstage, you're probably off of the stage or on the ledge aka about to die.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

And if you have BF style platforms as alternatives?

 

[Deleted member]

The platforms are awesome, set up a treehouse in them.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

OK so:
escaping to platforms > fighting them even without bomb > running away without platform help
if I understood correctly. Nice