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Where you AGT? The Official Toon Link General Discussion/ Video Thread!

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
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Regarding the Juu vs WGS vids.
Yellow is for Topics

For Master WGS (if he doesn't get this, let him know)

To start, tell him never Shield-Grab again. It is doing the OPPOSITE of helping him.
Especially with Lucas, as he has many things he could be doing instead. There's nothing wrong with Shield-Grabbing, it has its uses, but he tries to rely on it connecting nearly every time something hit his shield. Lucas, of all characters, has an abundance of options out of his Shield that can all connect just as quickly, and provide just as many different offensive options (regarding trajectory/power/whatever) that Grab can.
If he focuses 100% on DON'T SHIELD-GRAB, his abilities and general awareness of defensive > offensive transitions will go through the ROOF.
He's capable to a point where he 'should' be able to trust himself enough to do the right thing otherwise in other situations.
As in, if he focuses 100% on NOT REACTING with these types of things out of defensive situations, it's not like his game will fall apart. He's well-toned enough to not have to even pay attention to any particular aspect of his game and still do 'fine'. AKA, he has a conditioned foundation from playing enough.

Therefore, he should focus 100% on not Shield-Grabbing, and nothing else. Everything will fall into place whether he does this or not, but doing this will help him where NOT doing it WON'T help him.

Hope that makes sense.

He also spends a lot of time running away and throwing PK Freezes when he's in moments of uncertainty. In other words, he's spending a LOT of time not accomplishing ANYTHING because he gets into 'uncomfortable' situations and his reaction is to reset.
An example would be when edge-guarding G&W. Instead of using this 'discomfort' or simple lack of understanding/ability to keep a positional advantage when G&W is recovering, he would revert to PKF. If G&W wouldn't be hit with one directly, he would run across the stage and PKF. It's his reset reaction safe-net conditioning when in uncertain positions, and this carries throughout the rest of his game (at least in every match in the vids, including vs TL etc)

Tell him to stay a little more mindfully open to screwing around, and getting out of those 'comfort zones' more often, rather than straight-up avoiding them, as averting discomfort won't help anyone become more comfortable with things like it (that are inevitable and might as well be dealt with then and there), and is essentially 'bottling it up' which will only hold him back.
Even simple things, such as trying to Grab the Ledge when G&W used his DJ and moved below the stage looking to Up-B. Sure, a lot of the time it won't be effective, and may even back-fire, but it's better than accomplishing nothing with conditional retreats out of uncertainty/inexperienced situations, and it's better now than 'eventually later'. Keep it simple, sure, but at least attempt something. That's simply a step forward, even if it's uncomfortable for a long time, eventually it won't be/will have to NOT be, and this is the only way to do it.

TL;DR

Not being comfortable with G&W off-stage
>
Not throwing G&W off-stage when he gets a chance
>
Up-Throwing G&W when he gets a grab
>
Not gaining any significant advantage of Grabs when he DOES get them
>
Why attempt going for Grabs at all?


Especially Shield Grabs that connected maybe ONCE in the entire set. ;)

Everything roots back to something.
Hope all that made sense.

Juu G&W
A few tangible mundane things involving physics of the game/etc
1) With proper DI, opponents can get out of Grab > SH Uair combos quite effectively. Usually you can translate into SH-Bair's instead, as it's much more difficult to DI in a way that doesn't allow G&W to follow up, and deals more damage in the first place. As well, you can control the direction they go a lot better to gain positional advantage, where Uair allowed him to get center-stage type positioning far too often every time you repeated this once he started expecting the SH Uair's.
Otherwise, simply Up-B instead of Uair directly to start those attempted combos. It's trajectory is easy to follow, and you can Bair/Uair/Dair follow MUCH easier on the way down given the kind of mobility and speed you'll maintain after the hit (instead of the Uair hit) actually connects. It also leads to the Nair/Fair that otherwise you were limited to after the Uair's anyway. At the very least, you'll get that, but you can get more if you wanted.
If you're not going to connect with an aerial on the way down from Up-B mid-combo, etc, just throw a single Bacon. The reset/vortex type positional forcing and options of this gives G&W a massive advantage, whether it's hitting them and Up-Bing to combo again, forcing a DJ out of them, or simply making them move further away. If all your left with is falling back to the ground, getting a good trajectory Bacon at Jump/SH height on your way is a game-breaker more often than not.

2) With the amount of (extremely predictable) PK Freezes he throws, you should be able to bucket them. Aim to simply be READY to bucket every time he runs away, or throws one at you when recovering since you can halt your momentum for easy control, and it comes out very quick. You could have had some free instant-kill style buckets throughout those matches.
Though at the same time, if this was a set for 'money' or 'tournament' style, then doing what you did was probably beneficial. As if you DID start bucketing PKF's, it would have given him incentive to adjust his play, and he may have transitioned to being more effective in those 'uncertainty' situations that you were abusing from his lack of making anything happen in them. I would never encourage playing 'to win' if it involves abusing or hindering someone else's potential to get better, but if you were aware of this and winning the match mattered more than giving him a tangible and very visual aid to an area he could improve in, then that's acceptable. If this wasn't your intention (usually it's not lol) then watch for that, and both you AND him will become more aware of the meta-game developing between you mid-matches.

3) This goes back to Up-B. Use it more than simply OOS and recovering. You did it ONCE outside of these situations, but you could have abused it a LOT more. There was a sequence in the first match where you were 'reset' at least 5+ times, and could have used the speed of Up-B to transition a feinted combo/pressure string into a combo of your own. Use it the way you would a Bowser-Up-B, simply as a very quick releasing move when that fast character thinks they can connect that aerial after you tech in place, or whatever. Trading that hit with whatever they have can often be beneficial to you even, let alone the way you can actually go straight through the holes in their maneuvering with it cleanly the majority of the time anyway.

With that stuff alone, there's no way you should lose matches to his Lucas with G&W if he plays the way he did.

However, the MAIN REASON he won this set is due to you being more of a 'chicken' than him.
Every time he Shield-Grabbed (he missed basically all but 1 I think haha), you spent that time FULL JUMPING across the stage away from him. If you simply FJ'd in place even, you probably could have attempted a clean Judgement hit on each one and that alone would have been enough to turn the tides. You played as if you expected him to power through you with Fair's and running-train on you every time you made an action. It's reasonable, and it very well could have happened, especially against Lucas, but this is where player vs player comes into play. He played in a way of averting things, and has a lot of holes in his game where he hits the panic button (Shield-Grabbing and run-away PKF's are simply the very visually significant 'panic-modes'), that you can easily adapt to and adjust your own play to make use of.


On-Topic of Toon Link
It made a good example of this 'respecting people's space' thing very easy to see in the TL matches. In the first game, he plays away from you like he's scared, just as he was respecting your space as G&W, though the difference came when YOU forced HIM to adjust due to character changes. You didn't change, HE did, and that's why he won the 2nd game.
With the character change, he gave you the same kind of room, but guess what? TL makes good use of that room, and enjoys have as much room as possible. This made PKF and his 'fall-back' options futile, and he had to actually MAKE stuff happen. When he had to 'make' stuff happen, he started playing aggressively, following you and not respecting your space, which inevitably worked because you played 'chicken' too.

Notice how almost every single one of the Grabs you landed in the first match came from SOMETHING ELSE. A landed hit, or something scaring him into some defensive maneuver, and this resulted in you getting the grab. As he stopped respecting your space (stopped playing chicken/was forced to MAKE something happen), he no longer went into these positions, or let you have to room that would put him there.
This resulted in you fishing for straight-Grabs in the second match, but he spent a lot more time actively moving around and towards you to cut off any mobility you could have, and challenging you more often. This was his adjustment and the first match he played differently, and it's because your character change forced him to stop playing scardipants. You continued to do so (TL is better for it) which is understandable against Lucas overall usually, but your play didn't adjust significantly.
AKA, in the first match, your TL stuff worked due to having a gimmick nature (something that shouldn't work but works in the situation because the meta-game hasn't developed enough to deal with it) and didn't in the second match (due to the meta-game developing between you to the point where he knew what tools you were abusing and how to get around them)
It likely wasn't a conscious alteration of play, but a natural aggression that formed out of (very mild desperation) the need to do something else to deal with you.

With all that stuff, simply be mindful of how you're developing your play and improving.
I haven't played Smash in a while, and this is the first Smash I've seen out-side the local community that I've seen in even LONGER, but I've seen both you and WGS play before, and you've come a long way since. It's good to see the PM community as a whole stepping in a developing direction, and continuing to do so, and you make a good example of that. The steps are coming quicker, but you can take leaps forward if your attention goes to the right areas to allow it.

Give attention to how you're growing. You likely improve bit by bit with every match, whether it's a 'good' or 'bad' match, but don't give as much attention to what you're adjusting (aggressive play) but HOW/WHY you're adjusting that way (going from defensive to aggressive, or vice versa, or whatever the game might call for/moment/event/anything)
Increase the awareness in HOW to develop efficiently > Developing efficiently.

Hopefully all this makes sense so far...

Mindfulness in application.

In the end, I'm just pointing out a bunch of visually exampled things in a set that might intellectually clear some things up. It's just intellectual stuff though.
There is NOTHING I'll ever say that you already know. This is all stuff you know, (Don't Shield-Grab on reaction if it's not gonna connect lulz) so the 'understanding' of this is just mundane crap you haven't applied to you games yet.
The purpose of my posting isn't to point out what you know that you haven't applied yet. That's simple meaningless stuff that anyone can do, and is essentially just 'friendly reminders'
Which are always good, but there's more to my posting than just that stuff. I won't pick apart the routes you might/could take from here, I simply pointed out this 'Do this and that' stuff in the matches that happened to use as examples. What you do from HERE is up to YOU 100%, so this is the best way I can help. Not pick apart WHAT you can do better with TL from here, but HOW you can find those things you might be able to do better.
- Just to clear this up... You don't need help in this field more than anyone, and I'm not saying that, and I'm only directing this at you as an example that applies to everyone. You're doing fine, and will do fine, and everyone else is too. I'm just using you as an example for it. That's all.

Train of importance, for hopefully making some sense out of this.

Be mindful of every action.
More importantly, and more clearly put.
Be mindful of every action NOW.
Then...
Be mindful of every action NOW.
If the 2 NOW moments have a different actions/reasoning behind them/perceptions during them... be mindful of THAT.
And...
Most importantly.
Be mindful of every change in your actions.

This is pretty universal and simple, and I'm sure you're well aware of it (everyone is I think), so take this as a friendly reminder if anything.
Hopefully you got most of this... hopefully somebody bothered to read it anyway (it's long but applies to all)

The whole point of intellectualizing... studying... discussing... PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL...
(if you're looking to improve at it that is... otherwise playing just for fun is sweet... but improve + fun + fun improving is X3 sweetness)
...is to go from having it take 'effort' or ANY bit of your attention at ALL...
To being 100% a natural state of being.
To the point where Awareness itself is a part of you, and the way you see things.
To the extent that every moment your attention of the moment and all the layers of it (actions > why you do the actions > transition into changing your actions) is just YOU AS YOU ARE.

Keep working with awareness.


If any of that makes sense/helps... cool.

It's nice to see members of the community stepping forward. All those moments where you're not fully aware (in-game it looks like repeated Shield-Grab attempts, repeated Uair's that lead to nothing, etc), are steps side-ways.
The 'goal' shouldn't be to step forward, but to simply make sure when you take a step, it's not in a direction you don't want to go.. like side-ways... or grinding/digging a hole for yourself by stepping backwards (usually in the form of excessive conditioning from overplaying unconsciously)
The community (every community) takes a lot of steps side-ways, and that's the only reason the PM meta-game has moved along like a slug since Day-1, and why everything generally goes slow in terms of publicly viewable development regarding anything. (aside from maybe a few hot-spots or individuals) This applies to every aspect of life so it's completely reasonable... and really would be a MIRACLE if Smash actually developed at any effective rate of awareness, though Smash, of all communities I'm involved in, is one of the most aware communities I've interacted with.
It's great to see, but the reason for this is because every individual has to take the steps, and therefore they do it. The more steps that are taken on one's own terms, the better for all, and Project: M has been a great beacon for resetting that for a lot of people within something that's already such a solid community.
Great to have something so demonstrably obvious to be grateful for. The people in this community, every one of them.

Good stuff, keep it up.


It's always difficult to explain that silliness, and even more difficult in 'writing' to public communities that I don't personally know/work with to any decent extent, but hopefully this all made sense.

And with that... Peace. <3
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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Much appreciated, this sort of thing is very helpful. My game vs Lucas is pretty green overall, so there's a lot of stuff I'm still kinda messing with. The Bucket thing vs PKF is something I apply vs Mario Fireballs but was not really comfortable applying vs Lucas yet, so I left it out of my game. I'll be sure to show that wrinkle a lot more.

I'll also let Master WGS know about this as well.
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
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whoaaaaaaaaaaa.

teal deer
I assume this is the Daze' that didn't grab for (ever) the majority of 2.1's TL era (back when grab was broken) to such an absence that I actually bothered to comment directly about it...
If so, why did it take so long to bother grabbing at all?
Or rather, what was it that changed in your perception of the game that finally made you use grabs?
Or rather, what's the difference between THEN and NOW in the way you play the game?
Or rather, what's the different between NOW and LATER in the way you play the game?

Changing the way you see things will always do more than changing the way you do things.
By a technicality, the ONLY REASON you're better NOW than you were THEN, is that you had less awareness THEN. The ONLY REASON you'll be better LATER than you are NOW, is the same thing.

The game won't change in 1 week, but you'll be better in 1 week from now.
How does it happen/what causes it/why would that be?
Work with that, and you won't even have to play Smash AT ALL.

None of you have to. You just do because it's very physically tangible and easy to do something you're used to and can make sense of.
The more you do what you're not used to, particularly when it involves the way you're mental positioning around the game, rather than physical connection to the game, the better you'll be without any regard for your environment, and your environment will improve with it.

Science and math at its finest.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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I assume this is the Daze' that didn't grab for (ever) the majority of 2.1's TL era (back when grab was broken) to such an absence that I actually bothered to comment directly about it...
If so, why did it take so long to bother grabbing at all?
Or rather, what was it that changed in your perception of the game that finally made you use grabs?
Or rather, what's the difference between THEN and NOW in the way you play the game?
Or rather, what's the different between NOW and LATER in the way you play the game?

Changing the way you see things will always do more than changing the way you do things.
By a technicality, the ONLY REASON you're better NOW than you were THEN, is that you had less awareness THEN. The ONLY REASON you'll be better LATER than you are NOW, is the same thing.

The game won't change in 1 week, but you'll be better in 1 week from now.
How does it happen/what causes it/why would that be?
Work with that, and you won't even have to play Smash AT ALL.

None of you have to. You just do because it's very physically tangible and easy to do something you're used to and can make sense of.
The more you do what you're not used to, particularly when it involves the way you're mental positioning around the game, rather than physical connection to the game, the better you'll be without any regard for your environment, and your environment will improve with it.

Science and math at its finest.

I assume this is the guy on smashmods that posted essay after essay being critical of others yet has no footage of himself or any tournament result history behind his belt to back it up.
 

Nausicaa

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?
If you're taking offense from critique (or think it's a negative thing in any way), then you're doing it wrong, for starters. lol
There's no reason to back anything up (ever, let alone personally), and there's nothing to back up in the given quote (or posts made prior)
I don't understand your post.

Do you think what I'm saying in my post isn't applicable to something, or whatever? If so, let me know, I'd like to grow, rhymes you know.
Math and Science > needs for credentials.
Stop being a newbie at life and smash and stuff. ;)


Edit: If it helps for whatever reason... pretend the post is about some OTHER dudeface, and take it for what it is, it might actually be of value to you. If not, cool, no big deal.
Whether it's a neighborhood vandal or a Buddha, the words mean literally the same thing. You should be able to get a filter that's a little more manageable than 'videos or it doesn't help me' LOL
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
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I assume this is the guy on smashmods that posted essay after essay being critical of others yet has no footage of himself or any tournament result history behind his belt to back it up.
?
Smashmods? belts? Think of a belt smash, give it time to GROW. Think in your MIND of the belt smash but for the future and not the present: it's the beginning to your science. The opponent in smash can SEE what you think concerning verbal cues and signs of honorariums but he can't predict the TRUE future: and that's when true out-smarting comes in.

You don't have to play the game
You don't have to stare at the screen
-You can feel the science-

TLDR: Grab more noob
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
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If someone is seriously using 'pics or didn't happen' as a 'reason' for not taking some comments into consideration, noob would define that person pretty accurately, actually. haha
If you're taking SpiderMad's post calling him a noob seriously, then you're being a noob in another way too. XD
If you actually think he's a noob (I would assume at smash itself), and are laughing at him for us calling him a noob, than that's just silly. For one, he's not, for two, that's not going to help him or anyone, and three, calling someone a noob would imply we knew each other to some decent extent.

Nothing I've ever posted is even NEW to anybody, it's just like... friendly reminders. It's very seldom given as much attention as even basic tech-skill practice, so it's worth mentioning.
Doing the boards a favor by posting this, due to a technicality. lol

Want to get better at anything, EVER?
Get better at getting better.
When you're REALLY GOOD at getting better at stuff...
Getting better at anything else is EASY.

Math, and Science, and stuff. :D



Edit: That's ****ing bad*** SpiderMad!
Bamesy is spelled a little different, but everyone spells it that way anyway.



Editedit: It totally made this when I did it!

"The game won't change in 1 week, but you'll be God in 1 week from now"

Too good.
Mammoth and Pancake at its finest.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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i dont understand why i'm being insulted here??? I didn't even ask for an opinion, and 2.1 was ages ago. Are you just really butthurt because I called your post a tealdeer, so you had to find someway to belittle me? Seriously lol

go to a tournament pls
 

Nausicaa

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Your previous post seemed like you were taking offense to critique, or ignoring something of value due to something mundane and redundant. My mistake there maybe.
TL;DR means 'shorter version required' and so I did that directly for you, and it was accurate without any trace of belittling.
I'm glad you're not upset, and so I hope the post I made helped. :)

If you're actually interested in seeing me play or something, message me who do you play Smash with in Van or something. I'm sure some of the people are familiar with who I am.
I'd rather not go 'credential-building' as it skews people's ability to think straight about written stuff. This conversation is a good example of that.
 

Nausicaa

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Yeah, pretty much. You could put it that way I guess. haha

Long post > teal dear > TL;DR given > Weird Post > Confusion.

I'm still confused about that weird post then.
It seems to imply disregarding things that could potentially be helpful... because of where it comes from. That's just weird.
I have know idea why anyone would post something like that, it just screams ignorance. Intentionally being stupid is something I'll tell people not to do at every chance I get. Hence 'going off' on it.

Why did you post it? I actually still don't get it.
I miss trolling attempts a lot, so maybe it was a joke?
If it's not important, don't bother.

XD


As long as this is what people try and do, before anything else, my job is done.
Get better at getting better.
:D
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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im not disregarding anything?? i didn't even ask for a critique or an opinion lol

as for my post, i just said that i was assuming that you were bamesy from smashmods
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
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Yeah for sure.To clear things up maybe then.
I figured teal dear was kind of like a request to make a shortened version. A lot of the post was directly related to what they were doing, so I figured I would do the same for you.
TL;DR = Critique, you could say. haha
That's where that came from.

The confusion part for me is when people mention things like credentials. AKA, vids + stats, which you mentioned in your post.
If that doesn't matter to you, then it's seemingly out of place. If it does, then that's silly, and that's why I figured further posting was needed.

Otherwise, we're all on the same page.
My forum edicate is garbage though, so I probably just took a joke mid-meaningful-convo as something serious and ranted on about something that everyone already knows. (like usual)

Good like that. XD
 

BlinkIV

Avenger
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Really liking him, he's got great mobility, his bomb game is really nice, he's got very nice spacing options, and relatively good combo/kill power. I've just got a few questions starting out though.

What are his main approach options? Is it nearly the same as Link?

What do you mainly use for spacing? B-air > DJ B-air > B reverse boomerang? Jump back Z-air?

Is his Z-air any good? In a comparison to Link's Z-air in Brawl, where it auto cancels and can retain a very good neutral game.

What throws are good in what situation? Are his combos coming from D-Throw? Or U-Throw?

Sorry for the many questions, I'm really excited to learn and use this character, haha.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I've been playing alot of TL as well, and I think I'll give my opinion on your questions.
1. His approach is alot like links, projectiles to help get in and fast aerials. The only thing you can't do is use up b on the ground for killing/knockback.
2. If I'm in a large stage and I want to run away or space, I throw bombs and usually AGT them with L and the C stick so I can throw then anywhere. If I'm on a small stage I use alot more boomerang like you said. Jumping back and Zairing is so awkward and I wouldn't even do it.
3. Zair is weird, It's a quick hitbox but I don't think it auto cancels nor does it even cause much to your opponent. Brawls is alot better imo. I'd just nair if I were you.
4. D throw mostly, if you're playing a spacie/fast faller at very low % then you might want to up throw because d throw will put them in a tech chase situation, but up throw can get so much more in that situation. However, after like 30% ish D throw is perfect on anyone, it sets up almost every single kill option (Up B, Fair, Up Air, Dair) which is why D throw is crazy good.
Hopefully this isn't really bad advice.
 

BlinkIV

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Oh okay, well I've got a much better feel for him now, and seeing what's good and what isn't. There's also something I wanted to talk about, regarding Z-air bombing.

If I were to Z-air bomb, and for the sake of experimenting, hit the opponents shield and blew up. From what I noticed, they seem to be stuck in shield from blocking it, which was allowing me to get a free grab. Is that a normal setup most of you use? I'm seeing it being pretty darn good, but I'm not sure if it's completely guaranteed in situations.

Thanks Zach, I was about to ask what was good for killing. I see most things can lead up to his Up-B (Kind of like Pit), and his other moves. By no means do I think TL is bad at all,
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
By Zair bombing, do you mean doing a bomb drop with Z instead of throwing it?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Oh, so you hit the bomb with your Zair? I've done that before, It's probably safer to just throw/agt bombs. If you can make it work though, I'd like to see it because it does sound interesting.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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Really liking him, he's got great mobility, his bomb game is really nice, he's got very nice spacing options, and relatively good combo/kill power. I've just got a few questions starting out though.
Ah, awesome. :D

What are his main approach options? Is it nearly the same as Link?
You can play them pretty similarly in neutral, Link's fair/utilt are much better but then again TL also has a lot more mobility to work with. nair is pretty standard as an approach, and bombs are really versatile, you can throw a bomb at them and then act accordingly depending on what they do. fair also has +1 frame advantage on shield when it's not stale and hence can be useful, run -> spaced dtilt is also really good since it's easy to hit confirm into a combo or killing move, spaced jc usmash is also quite good for the same reason.

What do you mainly use for spacing? B-air > DJ B-air > B reverse boomerang? Jump back Z-air?
bomb/nair in place/retreat nair/bair/arrows/dd grab are all good options. Rang works at higher percents where it combos (just be wary of the significant start-up animation), otherwise I would mostly focus on using bombs and defensive aerials.

z-air is situational but it can be really nice, the fact that you can do it from an air dodge is pretty cool. I've had success using it vs characters without lingering hitboxes, such as Marth, where you can use the air dodge to avoid a hit and then use the z-air as a counter-attack.

Is his Z-air any good? In a comparison to Link's Z-air in Brawl, where it auto cancels and can retain a very good neutral game.
See above.

What throws are good in what situation? Are his combos coming from D-Throw? Or U-Throw?
dthrow is best on floaties and mid-weights. On mid-weights dthrow -> usmash is great at very low percents, and dthrow -> bair works well at around 25-30 or so. Ideally you want to transition to using dthrow -> uair as soon as possible (usually at about 40%~) since it's his best combo aerial, on many chars you can string that into a few more uairs and finish with up+b. dthrow -> up+b is good when it kills/puts them in a bad position off-stage and dthrow -> dair/fsmash is also good when they kill (fsmash is more position dependent, but it can kill considerably earlier than anything else in the right situation).

Floaties are a little different, usmash doesn't really lead to anything so I really like using dthrow -> rising FH bair -> falling bair/uair at lower percents and dthrow -> dair/up+b at KO percents.

uthrow is good vs fast fallers past 20% or so (before that I've had success with dthrow -> charge up+b -> tech chase), you can string vertical combos on spacies using usmash/uair and uthrow -> up+b works up to 140% at least.

bthrow is also really good for edgeguarding since the angle it sends at is very low. bthrow -> charge up+b -> edge hog is really good on fastfallers because the up+b can clip recoveries and drop them really far off stage, setting them up for a kill. It's also really good for edge guarding Sheik at mid %s+ since you can create an edge guard loop on her where you keep hogging the edge and then b-throwing her off-stage until she is at KO %.

Heavy chars are pretty difficult to combo from grab, the only moves I've found that combo from 0 on heavies are jab, nair (some chars) and utilt. Out of those options I like jab 1 -> jab 2 -> nair/regrab and nair -> stuff. uthrow is probably a good choice at mid % so it can set up for juggles, I dunno, I need to play against heavies more in general. dthrow -> kill moves still works fine on them at high percents.

Sorry for the many questions, I'm really excited to learn and use this character, haha.
No problem. ^__^ Ask if there's anything else you want to know as well.
 

BlinkIV

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Ah, awesome. :D



You can play them pretty similarly in neutral, Link's fair/utilt are much better but then again TL also has a lot more mobility to work with. nair is pretty standard as an approach, and bombs are really versatile, you can throw a bomb at them and then act accordingly depending on what they do. fair also has +1 frame advantage on shield when it's not stale and hence can be useful, run -> spaced dtilt is also really good since it's easy to hit confirm into a combo or killing move, spaced jc usmash is also quite good for the same reason.

Ah alright, I'll be sure to mess around with that and see what's good. Spaced JC Usmash is good as well? I'm gonna definitely spend some time in the lab figuring this character out.

bomb/nair in place/retreat nair/bair/arrows/dd grab are all good options. Rang works at higher percents where it combos (just be wary of the significant start-up animation), otherwise I would mostly focus on using bombs and defensive aerials.

Alright, so it seems a little similar to Link, I used to main Link in 2.0/2.1, so I'm pretty familiar with how his style is, but TL seems better to me.

z-air is situational but it can be really nice, the fact that you can do it from an air dodge is pretty cool. I've had success using it vs characters without lingering hitboxes, such as Marth, where you can use the air dodge to avoid a hit and then use the z-air as a counter-attack.

Right, I do re-call that Z-air is a crucial factor in the Link vs Marth MU. I'm assuming it's possibly the same for TL vs Marth?

See above.



dthrow is best on floaties and mid-weights. On mid-weights dthrow -> usmash is great at very low percents, and dthrow -> bair works well at around 25-30 or so. Ideally you want to transition to using dthrow -> uair as soon as possible (usually at about 40%~) since it's his best combo aerial, on many chars you can string that into a few more uairs and finish with up+b. dthrow -> up+b is good when it kills/puts them in a bad position off-stage and dthrow -> dair/fsmash is also good when they kill (fsmash is more position dependent, but it can kill considerably earlier than anything else in the right situation).

Floaties are a little different, usmash doesn't really lead to anything so I really like using dthrow -> rising FH bair -> falling bair/uair at lower percents and dthrow -> dair/up+b at KO percents.

Sick.

uthrow is good vs fast fallers past 20% or so (before that I've had success with dthrow -> charge up+b -> tech chase), you can string vertical combos on spacies using usmash/uair and uthrow -> up+b works up to 140% at least.

Sick.

bthrow is also really good for edgeguarding since the angle it sends at is very low. bthrow -> charge up+b -> edge hog is really good on fastfallers because the up+b can clip recoveries and drop them really far off stage, setting them up for a kill. It's also really good for edge guarding Sheik at mid %s+ since you can create an edge guard loop on her where you keep hogging the edge and then b-throwing her off-stage until she is at KO %.

Sick.

Heavy chars are pretty difficult to combo from grab, the only moves I've found that combo from 0 on heavies are jab, nair (some chars) and utilt. Out of those options I like jab 1 -> jab 2 -> nair/regrab and nair -> stuff. uthrow is probably a good choice at mid % so it can set up for juggles, I dunno, I need to play against heavies more in general. dthrow -> kill moves still works fine on them at high percents.

Sick.

No problem. ^__^ Ask if there's anything else you want to know as well.
Definitely, I'll be hanging around here more often, it's definitely better than certain character boards that are "Dead". You're all chill, it's pretty respectable, I'm sure I'll fit right in with you TL peeps. In other words, I might stream sometime soon, or tomorrow, just to practice TL, learn the character, take advice and chat.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
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^ and thats why I know I'm not good at giving advice
I thought your advice was pretty good, except the spacies grab stuff. :p

Definitely, I'll be hanging around here more often, it's definitely better than certain character boards that are "Dead". You're all chill, it's pretty respectable, I'm sure I'll fit right in with you TL peeps. In other words, I might stream sometime soon, or tomorrow, just to practice TL, learn the character, take advice and chat.
The atmosphere is good. It's a lot more inactive than it used to be, probably because less videos are being posted up and I am partially to blame for that since I've stopped putting up vids as well due to streaming on Twitch. <_< I have plans to record a lot more though, and I'm rooming with JCaesar+Strong Bad for Evo so I could probably record a lot there, too!

I'd watch a stream of you if I was free, though atm I'm training for Evo haha.

edit: zair stuff vs marth is pretty much the same for TL, yeah, it just has less range. Actually, in general if you know how to play Link it should be easy to pick up TL, I know for me it was really easy to learn Link after I learned how to play TL.
 

BlinkIV

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Alright, sounds good. I'll be recording and streaming a lot more myself, I've watched your TL, and it's really surprised me. I'm interested in moving on up with TL as a secondary. I'll be maining Pit, however.
 

B.W.

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
2,141
Location
Darien, IL
So I missed your stream, Jolteon. What's new about 2.6 T.Link?

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