What's the difference between Side-B and Down-B? [REVERSION: 8/18/09]

[da K.I.D.]

so the time of the shortened hitstun combined with the time taken up by performing the airial is still less than if you allow hitstun to wear off normally?

 

[Deathwish238]

wow nice finds and testing and thanks for the summary tenki so this is another thing that can separate the men from the boys (mostly ignorant players)

 

[da K.I.D.]

i just thought of something really funny to do next time im recovering

 

[infomon]

After all my experiments, I make the following assertion:

Hitstun and knockback are intrinsically related. If hitstun is not cancelled ("escaped" with an airdodge, aerial, etc.), then it lasts until just a tiny bit before the end of knockback; when hitstun naturally converts into a tumble state. Hitstun can be escaped at about halfway through your knockback trajectory.

The Brawl Hax ppl should be able to figure out if this is true, or what extraneous conditions there are.

Anyway, if we go off my assertion... You're right KID that there are times when you're better off waiting until hitstun wears off naturally before using the bucket. But those would be very low % situations; they shouldn't be able to kill you. Once hitstun wears off, you have regained your aerial mobility (except for a tiny bit of knockback remaining, which you can limit by simply leaning towards the stage). In this case you're unlikely to die regardless of the bucket. You should only be KO'd at percents where the Nair would finish faster than waiting out the hitstun.

Although, it might be wise for ppl to do an analysis with every character to determine where the difference occurs. It will be hard to guage though, since it would be something like the ratio of the duration of your fastest aerial to the number of knockback units that hit you. And knockback units are something you just need to get a feel for in the game, since it's based on your % as well as the strength of the attack.

Edit: I wanna hear the funny thing to do while recovering! If it involves a B-reversed side-B.... I tried, it doesn't help

 

[g0tmilK?]

GuYz0rs, alL yOu hAvE to D0 iS 2 pRessS a + B @ tHe sAme TimE, InstAnTTT WinnAAHH

 

[Deathwish238]

GuYz0rs, alL yOu hAvE to D0 iS 2 pRessS a + B @ tHe sAme TimE, InstAnTTT WinnAAHH

lol wtf?! go back to gamefaqs lol im j/k

 

[Chis]

Tenki, have you added this yet?

1) ASD

Oh yes, charge you side B in the air and hold the shield. ( I suggest doing a short hop) Now if you land on the ground before it's full charged it will cancel.

2) The real discovery, lengthening your SD 'hop'

Release you side B and hold forwards as it hops and it will go a bit further. Hold it back and the the 'hop; will be shorter. Better recovery? Easier foot stool? This has been mentioned before?

 

[da K.I.D.]

the effect is negligible, but its good to know, it sounds like the players DI affects where sonic goes as soon as he goes past the peak of teh side b hop

 

[infomon]

... and I'd love frame data on the release time of down-B vs. side-B.

Ooooh, after playing around in training mode, I've decided that the relative timing differences are such:
Both side-B and down-B have start-up time before Sonic gets an aura. As soon as the aura appears on side-B, you can shield-cancel the charge, or jump (VSDJ from the ground, jump-cancel in the air). However, this happens earlier than the earliest you can release an SD hop! That is, you can't release an SD hop until after the aura's been out for an additional period of time.

This might explain why it feels like you can't spinshot until the side-B has been charging for a little bit of time; the spinshot needs you to release the hop, rather than merely a transition from the charging state into your second-jump.

Alternatively, when down-B gets its aura, it can be released right away. But the aura takes slightly more time to come out on down-B than it does for side-B, afaict.

So from fastest to slowest:

1. side-B > aura comes out (can be shield- or jump-cancelled)
2. down-B > aura comes out (can be released or jump-cancelled)
3. side-B > can be released

I'm pretty sure that anytime after side-B's "minimum time to release", releasing B instantly releases the side-B. But it's possible that the "release-time lag" is always there once you let go of the B button... I didn't test that.

Anyway, this further explains why down-B is better for momentum-cancelling, since it can be released sooner.... but more importantly, side-B can be jump-cancelled sooner than down-B can. This is great, because side-B can always be used in either direction. This brings us to...

Sorta-New Discovery Time!

OK, so it's more like subtle-detail possibly-known-but-worth-bringing-up time...
Side-B is a really fast air pivot; probably the fastest in the game (although it takes your 2nd jump).

Example usage:
Edgeguarding. RAR a Bair off the stage, but it might not connect, or has low knockback at low %. Instead of trying another Bair, side-B towards the enemy, and immediately jump-cancel it into an Fair. This comes out faster than a second Bair!

Pretty cool, huh!?

 

[Espy Rose]

So Infzy, in a situation where you need to recover, assuming you can perfectly time the release of both downB and sideB.

After a fair to reduce momentum, DownB would be more plausible then? I assume so since it's faster to release if done correctly.

---

I've tried that air-pivot with sideB, and it's works here and there. I'll be hanging off the edge, drop down, sideB away, jump cancel, then bair the opponent.

Of course, they'd have to be silly to just stand there next to the edge, especially if they are high leveled opponents. But yeah, it's still plausible against others.

 

[infomon]

Yep. Fastfall an Fair, then release a down-B as soon as you possibly can. It helps with both horizontal and vertical KOs!

 

[Espy Rose]

Yep. Fastfall an Fair, then release a down-B as soon as you possibly can. It helps with both horizontal and vertical KOs!

That's what I thought. At least now I have something I can practice solo. I gotta learn exactly when to release DownB for a spin.

I use to do it on the ground before, so it shouldn't be too hard.

It's because I've been using SideB for recovery. DownB does the same, faster, not to mention it doesn't pop back slightly when issued.

Oh, another questioon Infzy.

Spinshotting in the air using downb/sideb after fairing to reduce momentum. Does the jump to initiate spinshot hinder the recovery due to the leftover momentum from the attack?

Jumping is the worst thing Sonic can do after fairing, compared to sideb/downb.

But does a spinshot follow the same principle of a jump, whereas the leftover velocity sucks you back and upward into the blast zone?

 

[infomon]

Spinshotting in the air using downb/sideb after fairing to reduce momentum. Does the jump to initiate spinshot hinder the recovery due to the leftover momentum from the attack?

Jumping is the worst thing Sonic can do after fairing, compared to sideb/downb.

But does a spinshot follow the same principle of a jump, whereas the leftover velocity sucks you back and upward into the blast zone?

Spinshotting happens when you jump-cancel during the transition of states. For side-B and down-B, it's the transition from charging the spindash to the release of the spindash. Releasing either of them already cancels all of the knockback that was against you; which is more reason why both moves are great at momentum-cancelling. The spinshot-jump technically happens after the spindash was released, so it is unaffected by any previous knockback; it will go the same distance as any other time. So there's no positive or negative effect of using the spinshot. You might as well just release an ASC.

 

[Catt]

I was playing my group of Brawl friends a little while back, maybe a week or two ago, and on FD I stage spiked one of them(can't remember if it was Diddy or Samus or someone else, gotta check) with a Spin Charge SDR turned ASC after rolling off of the right edge. It was really intense, we both SD'd until the match was over so we could keep the replay. I was wondering if anything like that has been reported by others to happen, or if was just bad DI or a fluke. Either way, it was really awesome.

 

[Tenki]

it happens if they SDI under the ledge (usually because they hold towards the stage)

 

[Catt]

Yeah, that's what I thought. *sigh* I was hoping it wasn't random and/or caused by bad DI, but deep down I knew it probably was. Thanks for the info though.

Deep down... inside the steak.

Edit: Included steak reference.

 

[infomon]

lol
stage spike with SDR turned ASC..... that's kind of awesome, gg

I'm sad it's not something we can do intentionally..... QQ

 

[~TBS~]

wait, guys...I was playing a friend...I fsmashed him on FD, and it was a stage spike! he was at the end of FD, and I just fsmashed, and he fell downwards, like he got stage spiked off of that little slope. sorry, no vids...

 

[Tenki]

Even though I'm not updating this until this weekend, someone please go make a GIF of the perfect combo. ;o

 

[memphischains]

I have been using that gif to show people tenki, with credit to you of course

the CT thread was curious and Hella didn't know exactly how it worked.
p.s. Hella is playing agian

 

[da K.I.D.]

i havent heard of anybody hitting that for a while now...

 

[Tenki]

err I meant an animated GIF, if you have capture programs.

I don't care if it's done against a computer or what, but as long as it shows it happening.

 

[Kalm]

I KO'd a grounded CPU Zelda off the bottom platform of Yoshi's Island the other day.
(What Shawnik can KO??)

But no seriously, I used downB in the air, or what I believe is called the ASC on my reading, and hit her right after I started moving with it, it knocked her up and off the top of the stage as I was landing and shield canceling it. Now I'm not sure exactly how much damage she had before the hit, but she was at 142% when she was KO'd.

I knew SC could KO but I've only heard of it doing so in really high %, and Zelda isn't even quite as heavy as characters like Falco, MK, and Pikachu.
So KOing characters at 120% to 140% with SC...
Is this anything worth note?

 

[Tenki]

~130% is really early for an ASC KO.

Assuming that the move wasn't stale maybe it was a combination of bad DI and "Smash charge vulnerability"?

ps new sig ;3

 

[Jim Morrison]

It was with ASC, and yea, ASC is a very strong hit. I don't really remember it KOing at 130%, but maybe the CPU did **** DI.

 

[Kalm]

I've been trying it on a CPU MK in training mode at around 135% and it can't quite seem to do the job. But yes ASC is definately much stronger than grounded, I've even KO'd the MK dummy while he was recovering by running off the edge with SC. As soon as Sonic left the ledge it became "aerial" I suppose and knocked him way further back than usual.
That and she was right there on me while I was charging it, so that and the fact that ASC has full power as soon as it get charged enough to move means that it can be a secondary KO move or somewhere around it. So, if the opponent is in a dangerous position, anywhere near the edge, and you can use a ASC and hit him with it right as you move, you can possible get off an early % KO. It doesn't have near as much knockback as Bair, but it has way more knockback than any other aerial attack.
I'm also seeing a lot of use in charging this up on the air a LOT and either jump canceling or shield canceling it a good amount of the time for mindgame. The move looks exactly like homing attack while it's charging, and I've tricked a bunch of people trying to "telegraph" my moves. I also got a KO with rushing an opponent off the stage with ASC, then quickly jump cancelling and getting in a fast homing attack that actually hits zomg! Either way this is a risky thing to do though....

I'm also having a lot of fun using SD and SC and going directly into spring with it, I keep confusing people.

****ing **** Sonic is so much ****ing fun!

 

[infomon]

Yepyep, you've come to the fun part of playing Sonic all the crazy tricks and cancels and stuff, and ASC being awesome.

w00t.

Note that if you hit multiple times with ASC, the second+ hits won't have as much knockback for some reason. So if you're actually hoping to KO with ASC, just hit them once with it.
(Hold forward to keep its speed up = hitbox strong, I'll assume you knew that tho.)

 

[Tenki]

I've been trying it on a CPU MK in training mode at around 135% and it can't quite seem to do the job. But yes ASC is definately much stronger than grounded, I've even KO'd the MK dummy while he was recovering by running off the edge with SC. As soon as Sonic left the ledge it became "aerial" I suppose and knocked him way further back than usual.
That and she was right there on me while I was charging it, so that and the fact that ASC has full power as soon as it get charged enough to move means that it can be a secondary KO move or somewhere around it. So, if the opponent is in a dangerous position, anywhere near the edge, and you can use a ASC and hit him with it right as you move, you can possible get off an early % KO. It doesn't have near as much knockback as Bair, but it has way more knockback than any other aerial attack.
I'm also seeing a lot of use in charging this up on the air a LOT and either jump canceling or shield canceling it a good amount of the time for mindgame. The move looks exactly like homing attack while it's charging, and I've tricked a bunch of people trying to "telegraph" my moves. I also got a KO with rushing an opponent off the stage with ASC, then quickly jump cancelling and getting in a fast homing attack that actually hits zomg! Either way this is a risky thing to do though....

I'm also having a lot of fun using SD and SC and going directly into spring with it, I keep confusing people.

****ing **** Sonic is so much ****ing fun!

lol

did you take a look at the smash-charge vulnerability link?
in case you didn't, apparently people can die up to 20% earlier if they get hit while they're charging a smash.

^^; careful with 'confusing' your opponent due to it looking like a homing attack. That's due to matchup inexperience lol.

It's really weird when you confuse people with SD/SC especially at first, because it's not quite apparent when you fool them out of matchup inexperience and when you fool them out of pure mixup ability.

Wait until you start mastering his dash ._.;

All the crap that people spew about Brawl and movement and not being able to do this or that because it's too slow or because movement options suck, etc - it kind of falls apart when you use Sonic.

 

[da K.I.D.]

can you take my name out of the OP now pls?

 

[infomon]

lol

and... what is the UPDATE PENDING..?! ?

 

[Kalm]

Okay, I'm still testing this out, and yes ASC has the most knockback when released on top of the opponent. SC has small knockback, ASC has decent knockback, and ASC when released on top of the opponent has significantly greater knockback. However, I don't know if this is because of the link Tenki showed me, because I can charge the attack while falling and then release when close enough for the full knockback. So it doesn't look like it matter wether or not you aerially charge it in your opponents face.

Well, I simply cannot recreate the 130% KO I had earlier, I have no idea what caused it and I'm about to give up on it. You would think it would be the smash vulnerabilty but so far I haven't been able to KO Zelda, Falco, or Kirby at anything less than 140-150% grounded. Heavy characters wont be KOd by it will like way up there around 180%. It's also much harder to release ASC on smaller opponents, so it's losing a lot of zeal. It is unique in that it knocks the opponents upward, and it actually has greater upward knockback than Uair, so if both you and the opponent are near the ceiling you might could get a low % KO with this. That's almost never going to happen though since when you DO get in that situation it's thanks to the handy dandy B button ****** spring.

So yeah, don't know if anyone knew that there was much greater knockback on ASC release than anything any other spin move, but it's looking like it's way to situation to pull off to be anything to work around. More of a gimmick than anything else, something to go oooooh over and put in a combo vid when it happens and you recorded it.

Also, I thought at this point we could expect matchup inexperience VS Sonic since pretty much 90% of this forum ignores him? Also my initial reason for mentioning it was because Olimar if constantly complained about over people fighting him and like all of his moves looking the same and having weirdness shrouding them. But then again, Olimar has weirder moves, is a better character overall, and is very very stupid. You have to actually study him a good bit to get used to what he's doing, and I just wouldn't think people would do that with Sonic because he's so underrated and technical on top of that.
I'm likely wrong though, I just like conversation.

Also Olimar is dumb, amirite?

 

[Tenki]

all the stuff i didn't update last time?

 

[da K.I.D.]

oli is lame.

 

[Tenki]

@your kill %'s:
I tested these on Marth, but yeah:

Basic kill move/information
Unless otherwise stated, from the center of Final Destination, with no stale-move effect, no attack-charging:

Damage is first given without DI, and with best possible DI.


Fsmash : 110% [135% with up-towards DI]
Dsmash (first hit): 120% [145% with up-towards DI]
Usmash (last hit): 170% [200% with sideways DI]
U-tilt (full triple hit): 155% [190% with down-away DI] (for star KO. It can kill off the sides at lower %'s if you're closer to the edges)
B-air: 125% (sweet spot) [155% with up-towards DI] (can star KO lower if U-DI'd in midair)
U-throw (FD height): 195% [215% with down+towards DI]

U-airs are all double hits (first+second)
U-air from full hop: 170% [190% with down+away DI]
U-air from double jump: 150% [170% with down+away DI]
U-air from top of level (double jump + spring): 90% [110% with down+away DI]
Forward ASC [ground level]: 170% [215% with down+away DI]
Further modifiers for vertical kills/star KO's: For each "Jump" worth of height, subtract 20% from the kill%, similar to the U-air info.


From the edge of Final Destination:
B-air sourspot: 140% [190% with up+towards DI]
D-air sweetspot(Aerial): 140% [210% with up+towards DI]
B-throw: 165% [215% with up+towards DI]
F-air (Final hit/"head" sweet spot): 125% (sweetspot) [200% with up+towards DI]
N-air: 130% (sweetspot vs aerial opponent) [180% with up+towards DI]
Homing Attack (person standing on edge): 170-180% [215% with up+towards DI]


Note: if you hit the person with the initial hop into u-smash, it adds alot of extra knockback so that the opponent can get launched out of the u-smash at weird angles. For damage or to do the u-smash kill, hyphen smash or time it so you avoid the first hit.

Gimp tip: Hitting with Homing Attack
If you are lower than your target, Homing Attack will move upwards and hit the person so they fly in a forward trajectory (direction you are facing).
If you are higher than your target, Homing Attack will move upwards and tend to hit the person so they fly toward you (direction you are coming from).
So if you want to hit someone forward with a HA gimp, try fastfalling first.

Okay, I'm still testing this out, and yes ASC has the most knockback when released on top of the opponent. SC has small knockback, ASC has decent knockback, and ASC when released on top of the opponent has significantly greater knockback. However, I don't know if this is because of the link Tenki showed me, because I can charge the attack while falling and then release when close enough for the full knockback. So it doesn't look like it matter wether or not you aerially charge it in your opponents face.

Well, I simply cannot recreate the 130% KO I had earlier, I have no idea what caused it and I'm about to give up on it. You would think it would be the smash vulnerabilty but so far I haven't been able to KO Zelda, Falco, or Kirby at anything less than 140-150% grounded. Heavy characters wont be KOd by it will like way up there around 180%. It's also much harder to release ASC on smaller opponents, so it's losing a lot of zeal. It is unique in that it knocks the opponents upward, and it actually has greater upward knockback than Uair, so if both you and the opponent are near the ceiling you might could get a low % KO with this. That's almost never going to happen though since when you DO get in that situation it's thanks to the handy dandy B button ****** spring.

So yeah, don't know if anyone knew that there was much greater knockback on ASC release than anything any other spin move, but it's looking like it's way to situation to pull off to be anything to work around. More of a gimmick than anything else, something to go oooooh over and put in a combo vid when it happens and you recorded it.

Are you holding forward after you release ASC?

and also check for different DI. Up-towards DI (perhaps while Zelda is charging U-smash and holding a little bit towards Sonic) might be how you nailed the kill. Make sure you test it on Yoshi's Island too lol. Those kill%'s I got were tested on Marth/Final Destination.

 

[da K.I.D.]

why didnt you test on mario?

marth is too light to do these tests on, it skews the numbers.

marth is lighter than mario peach and i think luigi and ZSS. you have to use a median character.

 

[Kalm]

Mario Luigi
Marth Peach
ZSS Kirby

that's more accurate in terms of weight

 

[Tenki]

why didnt you test on mario?

marth is too light to do these tests on, it skews the numbers.

marth is lighter than mario peach and i think luigi and ZSS. you have to use a median character.

Well, at the time, from reading the boards, it seemed Marth was gonna be a popular character, so I went ahead and tested them on Marth

Mario has this weird "I'm lighter vertically than horizontally" deal going on though.

I might redo them on Mario over break.

 

[da K.I.D.]

peach is heavier than marth,
both of their boards have said so

 

[Kalm]

peach is heavier than marth,
both of their boards have said so

Yeah, my mistake was listing Peach to the right of Marth, but I didn't mean to get the message across in that way.

Peach is in fact heavier than Marth, but the difference is minimal enough to keep them in the same classification. Only a couple of characters have weight that's close enough to be called the same, but they're all close enough to be grouped, save for GW. GW is the only character that managed to be a considerable step lighter than even characters like Kirby, MK, Falco, Pika, and ZSS. He's in his own little divsion of lightness.
I still say that doesn't make up for his ******** KO power, along with great recovery and priority /cry.

Also, for forum's sake. Sonic is right around there with Marth, Peach, Zelda and Toony, Fox too iirc, and likely one or two others.

 

[infomon]

[Scientific Analysis of Character Weights]

Jiggs is the lightest by a good margin, then Squirtle, then G&W.

Assuming that guide is correct.

Just sayin'.