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user_name

Smash Apprentice
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Blackadder said:
^^^^
Yes, they can also help high tiers while nerfing low tiers.

It's not a one way street with items buddy.

Also, I have them turned of, because they DO kill any skill needed.
Click to expand...
not so much, actually. items help give characters longer range, this of course aids short range characters greatly, giving them both strong short and long range attacks, while not effecting characters with longer ranges too much, as it still leaves them open in short range. (no, its not going to move a characters tier position, but it helps out a bit.) And they DONT kill skill. Each item has its ups and downs, while there are a few items I think are broken, (tomato, heart container, starman) choosing when to go for an item, if you should should go for an item, and figuring out how to counter each item adds MORE strategy to the game, as well as techniques such as item catching.
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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@Username

Items add randomness to the gameplay.
Randomness kills skill needed.

Hypothetical:
Ness is on 125 percent, and Mario is on 37 percent.
Mario comes in for a smash attack, but before he does, a hammer falls down in front of Ness. Ness picks up the hammer, and smacks Mario into next week.

Randomness. sucks. period. XD
 
BUM163

BUM163

Smash Lord
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i got an email informin me there will b new info on brawl comin in video form at e3.i got confirmation from a man that works around nintendo n said this video should b surprising.either hez bullcrappin or he serious so lets see wat happens.this is bum n i'm a dk player.if anyone lives in the bx or b around n would wanna train,message me
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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^^^@Bum
I don't belive you for a second, show cut and copy the emails text then.

And I you DO have one, I highly doubt it's real.
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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It's not real.
Why would it only have confirmed characters on it if it was?
Also,there did't seem to be an tagline, like "Nintendo's superstars in an all out brawl for victory!" or something cory and cheap like that.

It did look nice though.
 
G

Got Blood?

Smash Lord
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I like Yuko's back cover,but the other one's front cover.

Where is Ben the Ultimate? He should be delivering vital information right now about Mario being in Brawl or something...
 
U

user_name

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
196
Blackadder said:
@Username

Items add randomness to the gameplay.
Randomness kills skill needed.

Hypothetical:
Ness is on 125 percent, and Mario is on 37 percent.
Mario comes in for a smash attack, but before he does, a hammer falls down in front of Ness. Ness picks up the hammer, and smacks Mario into next week.

Randomness. sucks. period. XD
Click to expand...
Strange occurrences such as that are possible even without items, and should be a back-of-your-mind consideration at all times. This is part of why most people play multi-stock games, and double knockout tourneys.

As far as the actually Hammer item goes, I think it is one of the worst items in Melee , and is no longer the broken item it was in SSB64. Now characters still have have hit boxes which aren't covered by the hammer (leaving huge openings), you still lose a jump, which, in some level gets you stuck, and now theres the possibility of getting a broken hammer and being royally screwed. Honestly, as long as I'm not on FD or a stage like that, which is small and doesn't have a lot of gaps, I try to get my opponents to pick up hammers, because it usually screws them in the end.
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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Okay this is getting into a debate now. XD
Stage occurences are random too, thus also eliminating skill factor.
WHy do you think there are "banned stages"?
ALso, in tourneys, Items are band, becasue most players agree that can unbalance a fight. It's just not fair to have a long battle go, then have one player pick up a heart container/star man/ maximum tomato ect.
If the game becomes unbalanced, then skill becomes less of an important facor, as one can just rely on items as there salvation through the match.

EDIT: @Blood.
I will indeed earch him!
also, what was that ticket you got yesterday? ^.-
 
U

user_name

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
196
Blackadder said:
Okay this is getting into a debate now. XD
Stage occurences are random too, thus also eliminating skill factor.
WHy do you think there are "banned stages"?
ALso, in tourneys, Items are band, becasue most players agree that can unbalance a fight. It's just not fair to have a long battle go, then have one player pick up a heart container/star man/ maximum tomato ect.
If the game becomes unbalanced, then skill becomes less of an important facor, as one can just rely on items as there salvation through the match.

EDIT: @Blood.
I will indeed earch him!
also, what was that ticket you got yesterday? ^.-
Click to expand...
on the contrary, not using items unballences the fight.

Also, those three, the Starman, Heart container, and Tomato are the three I usually turn off as they do seem broken.

Got Blood? said:
I like Yuko's back cover,but the other one's front cover.

Where is Ben the Ultimate? He should be delivering vital information right now about Mario being in Brawl or something...
Click to expand...
I hear they're cutting Mario from brawl.</sarcasm>
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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"on the contrary, not using items unballences the fight."
...
...
You may have to explain exactly how that theory works there, user.
 
G

Got Blood?

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
1,278
Blackadder said:
Okay this is getting into a debate now. XD
Stage occurences are random too, thus also eliminating skill factor.
WHy do you think there are "banned stages"?
ALso, in tourneys, Items are band, becasue most players agree that can unbalance a fight. It's just not fair to have a long battle go, then have one player pick up a heart container/star man/ maximum tomato ect.
If the game becomes unbalanced, then skill becomes less of an important facor, as one can just rely on items as there salvation through the match.

EDIT: @Blood.
I will indeed earch him!
also, what was that ticket you got yesterday? ^.-
Click to expand...
Speeding ticket. Apparently I was going 45 in a 25mph zone.I have a court date in Sept.

And in response to the unbalance,if you were playing in a tournament on the new Zelda level and you are totally owning some guy and he happens to hit you while the bridge is falling,oops,too bad.You just died not by skill,but a lucky hitl:ohwell:
 
Florida

Florida

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user_name said:
Strange occurrences such as that are possible even without items, and should be a back-of-your-mind consideration at all times. This is part of why most people play multi-stock games, and double knockout tourneys.

As far as the actually Hammer item goes, I think it is one of the worst items in Melee , and is no longer the broken item it was in SSB64. Now characters still have have hit boxes which aren't covered by the hammer (leaving huge openings), you still lose a jump, which, in some level gets you stuck, and now theres the possibility of getting a broken hammer and being royally screwed. Honestly, as long as I'm not on FD or a stage like that, which is small and doesn't have a lot of gaps, I try to get my opponents to pick up hammers, because it usually screws them in the end.
Click to expand...
As said many times before, playing with items takes a different type of skill. For those of you dimwitted, here's an example.

Skill = a dog
No item skill = Black Lab
Item skill = Husky

Different types. And we should just leave it at that.
When using items, you need to use timing to it's fullest. You have to know when, where, and how to use an item in the game. As for fighting without items, that also takes a heavy amount of timing and gameplay strategies.

Blackadder said:
Okay this is getting into a debate now. XD
Stage occurences are random too, thus also eliminating skill factor.
WHy do you think there are "banned stages"?
ALso, in tourneys, Items are band, becasue most players agree that can unbalance a fight. It's just not fair to have a long battle go, then have one player pick up a heart container/star man/ maximum tomato ect.
If the game becomes unbalanced, then skill becomes less of an important facor, as one can just rely on items as there salvation through the match.
Click to expand...
There has been discussion on why items were banned, for the exploding crates, or for being cheap? I don't know, so I'm not going to take sides with any of the theories. But, a lot of tournaments I've been to do allow items, and some others don't (the more popular tournaments).

user_name said:
on the contrary, not using items unballences the fight.
Click to expand...
What the hell?
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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^^^
My point exactly.
Too bad about the speeding, that sucks. :l

Other than that, as far as I'm concerend, this Item debate it over.
Winner: ME!! :D
 
F

Forgotten Twizzler

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
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Got Blood, getting KOed by a stage hazard doesn't warrant the use of items in tournaments. That's just one thing we can't control. I'm sure if there was a way to toggle off stage hazards, tournament hosts would do it in a heartbeat.
 
G

Got Blood?

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,278
Shiek or Fox with bunny ears in a tourney.That's why items aren't allowed.:dizzy:

Forgotten Twizzler said:
Got Blood, getting KOed by a stage hazard doesn't warrant the use of items in tournaments. That's just one thing we can't control. I'm sure if there was a way to toggle off stage hazards, tournament hosts would do it in a heartbeat.
Click to expand...
I wasn't condoning the use of items in tournaments.I was saying that it's not fair that a skilled player could lose to someone else by a random stage happening.I'll play a fun brawl on any stage,but for a tournament,give me FD any time.
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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^^^
Items just suck.
I'm still pondering over the ignorant "Not using items unballences a fight." thing.
Thats just...weird.
 
F

Forgotten Twizzler

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Joined
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Messages
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I'm just glad that Nintendo is going to present early on Wednesday. 9 AM EST

I may have to skip waiting for the update that day to wake up early :).
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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I've no idea when it'll be going for me.
No idea what time at all. ):
But i'll just hope on here, and see whats going.
 
F

Forgotten Twizzler

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
36
"For Pichu, it's all about scampering here and there to pick up items that will help it survive."

Yep, he must be a Pichu main.
 
J

jdironfist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2007
Messages
73
Blackadder said:
^^^
Items just suck.
I'm still pondering over the ignorant "Not using items unballences a fight." thing.
Thats just...weird.
Click to expand...
It's not as ignorant as you think. Why did the tiers turn out the way they did? Because they were based on JUST character strengths and such, and had nothing to do with items. If items were used, I think Bowser (for example) would see a surge up to a higher tier, simply because whenever he gets a Bob-omb, or any explosive item, he can hit both himself and the other player, and he won't fly very far at all. All sorts of new strategies would sprout up concerning how items aid Bowser's ledge guarding, for example. Really, I think items tend to equalize the tiers in the general case, not by taking away skill, but by making people choose, say, when to fire the Super Scope at Falco. Or whether to try to KO someone with the Home Run Bat, or simply chuck it at them.

To say that no items unbalances a fight is the same thing as saying that items tend to make the gaps between tiers less pronounced. This is, in general, a good thing.

You have to realize, also, that the reason items are banned in tourneys is strictly because of the randomly exploding crates, barrels, and capsules that cannot be turned off. Were it not for those, there would be no justification for not using items (non-broken items) in tourneys. I suppose there is a small amount of luck involved, but items contribute, on the whole, much more strategy than luck.

I agree with user_name in saying that Heart Containers, Starmen, and Maxim Tomatoes are broken, and I would hesitate to allow the Hammer or Food as well. As far as other items, there are a couple I could go either way on.

Brawl will not be Melee 2.0. Be prepared to use items, since they deepen the metagame as much as any of the advanced techniques, and they probably won't be turned off unless there is a similar problem in Brawl as in Melee.
 
Fawriel

Fawriel

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...Bowser would rise in the tier list if items were used?
You mean, if he actually managed to get his hands on any?
Items would make Fox get better and Bowser get worse.
That's all you need to know.
 
Blackadder

Blackadder

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Thats what I've been saying go****it!!
I've just stopped talking.
It's completly usless arguing with those guys.
 
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