What Would Get You Guys Interested in Project M?

[a vehicle]

I didn't have anyone talk me into playing P:M over melee and I'm seeing a lot of smug people here that are asking someone to do so (bcuz melee)

My everlasting battle against P:M is that recoveries are too damn easy to perform and I hope that the PMBR agrees with me on this one because it's really hard to gimp people that are no good at the game (opposite to melee where gimping a clueless opponent was the easiest thing to do).
But putting that aside it's clear that P:M is the logical step-up from melee that brawl never was.
IN FACT: if P:M came out as a nintendo licensed game in 2008 instead of brawl we wouldn't be arguing about this.

 

[Bobz]

Project M is a lot of fun. Some of our fellow smashers have made a game where 90+% of your melee skill transfers over immediately. Die hard melee fans can jump into it knowing that the top tiers they love will remain amazing, and they are always working on making the engine feel more like melee. As multiple people have said 2.6 feels like another huge step in that direction.

Plus you finally get a smash where that one character you initially wanted to play when you saw the roster way back when is actually viable. Still waiting on Samus, but the fact that they only update every six months or more shows that they are willing to let things play out and get real feedback instead of any knee-jerk fixes that would just throw everything out of whack.

 

[slomo431]

A community as friendly and welcoming as the one that ushered me into competitive Melee would help get me interested.

 

[Double Helix]

Well hopefully the character you want to play is viable. I am going to try 2.6 tomorrow probably, so I can say more later on that, but "low tier heroes" usually just play the character they love and have enough fun with it that they get super good. I think that it would be nice for most characters to be viable, but, for me, it is not necessary for Ness to be viable for me to have fun with him. I get wrecked by Fox and Falco (at this point) and I will do my best to learn the Sheik matchup, but I only switch against the Ice Climbers because I really feel useless against them (probably a personal thing). I don't know. It just seems more correct to play the character you love rather than the character that wins when you can.

 

[The_NZA]

Well hopefully the character you want to play is viable. I am going to try 2.6 tomorrow probably, so I can say more later on that, but "low tier heroes" usually just play the character they love and have enough fun with it that they get super good. I think that it would be nice for most characters to be viable, but, for me, it is not necessary for Ness to be viable for me to have fun with him. I get wrecked by Fox and Falco (at this point) and I will do my best to learn the Sheik matchup, but I only switch against the Ice Climbers because I really feel useless against them (probably a personal thing). I don't know. It just seems more correct to play the character you love rather than the character that wins when you can.

...I don't see why having your character capable of winning necessitates that you don't love it. I played Ness in Melee but I'm not going to sacrifice myself on an imaginary cross by sticking with him and refusing fair buffs to his moveset. Also, his new magnet has given him some cool new options for you to master.

 

[Double Helix]

It was my way of venting was all. Some people want to win more than have fun, so they switch away from their favorite character. Buffing characters isn't at all a bad thing if it is necessary. XD

 

[KayB]

Its a non-profit mod. Its made for you to enjoy and the developers don't really get paid much for their efforts. Sure PM lacks in a lot of areas but I don't see why people are bashing it and calling it ****ty instead of politely giving criticism.

 

[Double Helix]

Its a non-profit mod. Its made for you to enjoy and the developers don't really get paid much for their efforts. Sure PM lacks in a lot of areas but I don't see why people are bashing it and calling it ****ty instead of politely giving criticism.

Not sure if it is directed at me or not, but I just don't enjoy the game as much. Once I play 2.6 I will give criticism based on that (and not the earlier version I played).

 

[KayB]

Not sure if it is directed at me or not, but I just don't enjoy the game as much. Once I play 2.6 I will give criticism based on that (and not the earlier version I played).

No, just everyone in general.

 

[DoH]

Fixing ****ing down smash

 

[JKJ]

What's different about downsmash in P:M, DoH?

 

[Viceversa96]

Guess I'll just reiterate some things others have said.

1. I can't properly shield with L and wavedash with R. This mechanic has one of my most important movement options out the window.

2. Recoveries are too good. All of Melee's commonly used characters (and even many mid-low tier ones) except for Jigglypuff are very edgeguardable. Most of them have downright bad recoveries that only appear okay because years have been put into mastering all of the ways to mix them up.

3. I learned my lesson with Ike. No longer spending time on learning characters that are subject to big changes. I'm just gonna play the Melee ones that are going to stay roughly the same.

4. I don't really like the design strategy of assigning particular individuals to characters. I think there needs to be larger subteams working on each character.

5. Too many auto combos. In Melee there really aren't THAT many auto combos. It's just Sheik stuff on floaties, Fox waveshine, and obviously death combos on spacies. In PM it's like if ROB grabs you, you're screwed. If Bowser grabs you, you're screwed. If DK grabs you, you're screwed. etc. There's a lot less room for DI'ing out of stuff. On a similar note, I'm going to echo Cactuar's complaint which is that it seems like too many combos were designed to work.

The bolded is one of my biggest issues. Luigi needs WD Oos but it's a ****ing chore to do in P:M

 

[Viceversa96]

yea but i keeps it real.

Your combo video is amazing.

 

[Viceversa96]

Haha! Seems like I missed a little bit here.

I just want to throw in that what Rarik was saying about my intent/posts is correct.

1. I do not mind if people like Melee over PM.
2. My main pet peeve is when people critique PM based on bad information, or bad arguments.
3. My main argument to make is that PM is undeniably a better balanced game and therefore much more suited for competition.
4. My main goal is not to convince people to like PM more, but rather to make sure that bad arguments and shaky reasoning don't run rampant and therefore give all the PM fans a headache as they try to clear up the misinformation.
5. I can sometimes be immature.

Italian don't listen to them. To me you are a hero.

 

[Viceversa96]

Quadrupal post *******

 

[4 Aces]

Few gripes.

1. Some of the physics feels very off, and sometimes not crisp.
2. I don't like the idea of dedicating a lot of time into a game only for it to potentially change down the road. Hence why I might just wait till full release. Whenever that'd be.
3. It's not widely recognized/promoted. If I spend time on a game and at the next smashfest, no one cares enough to play with me, then no. I'd rather not play at all. It's happened before. I was at a local tourney and 2 guys showed up exclusively to play P:M. No one played the game there, and by the end of the day, there was a pity doubles tournament of like, 2 teams (the two dudes that showed up, and then two guys who hardly ever played P:M). Yeah...not my idea of fun. Sorry.

#2 and 3 are my bigger problems with the game.

 

[The_NZA]

Few gripes.

1. Some of the physics feels very off, and sometimes not crisp.
2. I don't like the idea of dedicating a lot of time into a game only for it to potentially change down the road. Hence why I might just wait till full release. Whenever that'd be.
3. It's not widely recognized/promoted. If I spend time on a game and at the next smashfest, no one cares enough to play with me, then no. I'd rather not play at all. It's happened before. I was at a local tourney and 2 guys showed up exclusively to play P:M. No one played the game there, and by the end of the day, there was a pity doubles tournament of like, 2 teams (the two dudes that showed up, and then two guys who hardly ever played P:M). Yeah...not my idea of fun. Sorry.

#2 and 3 are my bigger problems with the game.

Number 3 only changes by you taking hte risk to try the game with fellow friends. I think your complaint about 2 is even a little silly...updates roll around once every 6 months. Usually, they aren't drastic and as characters get to a good place (like they are now), we probably wont see major nerf hammers akin to Sonic 2.5-2.6 or Ike/Lucario.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

What's different about downsmash in P:M, DoH?

Lack of Melee sound effects confuses people to the point they think the move has been actually nerfed

Or it could be related to c-stick inputs, dunno

 

[Mew2King]

Buff bad characters from melee

leave melee top tiers 100% unchanged. Most melee players won't bother picking up the game or entering if they have to play with nerfed versions of their characters. MULTIPLE melee players have had this conversation with me in 2013 (with THEM bringing it up not me).

 

[KayB]

Buff bad characters from melee

leave melee top tiers 100% unchanged. Most melee players won't bother picking up the game or entering if they have to play with nerfed versions of their characters. MULTIPLE melee players have had this conversation with me in 2013 (with THEM bringing it up not me).

Why can't they nerf fox

 

[Mew2King]

Cuz they're already worse than in melee (up B angles are a lot worse but mainly they get death comboed far harder than they do in melee due to the falling speed acceleration increase and hitstun increase. EX: many moves FORCE spacies to up B from under the stage since illusion won't reach high enough, and any character can jump/run off stage and DJ fair their recovery easier because of that), but we(me and other top melee pros) logged 100s/1000s of hours into them and want to be able to use our same character the same. The shine and laser nerf can be annoying but it's not a huge deal, but if this keeps up melee players are just going to stop entering cuz of their nerfed characters. It's really stupid. All PM should do is make the worse characters (ness/mewtwo/etc) improved. That way all of the players are happy and maximum growth is possible.

 

[Renth]

I played PM this weekend, I entered a brawl doubles thing this weekend.

Regular brawl was more fun than PM. PM, I don't enjoy it.

 

[roxolid]

I actually started off on the P:M side like how some others have, and I honestly saw melee as something I never wanted to play. It looked like everyone played spacies, it seemed too technical and not creative enough, and I saw it as simply outdated.

HOWEVER

It was not until I watched the documentary, The Smash Brothers, that I understood the errors of my ways (and wow, there were lots of errors). Now melee is number 1 in my mind, always will be, but I still enjoy P:M, and I hope more and more people will come to enjoy both games. Seriously, who just doesn't want more chances to play smash at tournaments, even if it's in two different games?

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

P:M just doesn't feel as good as Melee, it lacks the fluidity of Melee which will be hardly to fully emulate. I enjoy P:M aside Melee but every time after switching to Melee after P:M I feel bit relieved. I think in the future P:M physics will start to feel better though

 

[CosmoNaughtilus]

let's face it. project m is just a gateway game for melee...

This, quite honestly, is true for me. After playing PM casually with friends, I wanted more. Something more difficult. So I turned to Melee.

 

[The_NZA]

I hope everyone arguing about the "autocombo" friendly nature of Project M, take the time to go to this thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/forced-design.340584/page-1
And read the posts by Oracle, Cactuar, Hylian, JOE!, and Strongbad.

It really comes down to punish games and mitigation games. I will post exerpts if people are too lazy to look, but if you are at all willing to critique this game, you should at least know what you have a problem with.

 

[CosmoNaughtilus]

As for my feelings towards PM, I enjoy the balance of characters, but the controls feel off. I'm a Falco main in Melee, and I can't play him in PM. Peach is the only Melee character that I think feels close to identical. That being said, I enjoy playing the updated Brawl and improved characters, like Mario, ZsS, and Wolf.

 

[Divinokage]

The P:M community is freaking weird.. just look at the social thread.. omg.. =/ With things like that, it's another reason why it's pretty hard to get into it.

 

[Tlock]

The P:M community is freaking weird.. just look at the social thread.. omg.. =/ With things like that, it's another reason why it's pretty hard to get into it.

Don't judge the community as a whole by the ~10 overly "vocal" people that post in that thread. Most of the community doesn't bother with that mess of a thread anymore.

 

[The_NZA]

Don't judge the community as a whole by the ~10 overly "vocal" people that post in that thread. Most of the community doesn't bother with that mess of a thread anymore.

If I judged the melee community on every time I heard major players say ****** and ****, i'd have missed out on an incredibly important experience.

 

[Arcadia157]

I feel like a little child with high hopes and dreams right now, but I would totally play more P:M if there was a Chrom alternate costume for Marth.

 

[Juushichi]

go to KC-MM and there is probably one.

 

[Silent Wolf]

real talk, i would play pm outside of tourneys if it wasnt so poorly designed. Every character from brawl or that was bad in melee is way too good and cheesy. everything is layed out for them and just about all of them, aside from a few even lack fundamentals to succeed. like wtf were you guys thinking when you made ivysaur? lol. i dont feel the need to even explain myself, plus i dont care about the game enough anymore to so ill just leave it at that lol. i really wish everyone who was working on it wasnt a huuuuuuge melee noob, or at least understood how ****in nooby they were

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

real talk, i would play pm outside of tourneys if it wasnt so poorly designed. Every character from brawl or that was bad in melee is way too good and cheesy. everything is layed out for them and just about all of them, aside from a few even lack fundamentals to succeed. like wtf were you guys thinking when you made ivysaur? lol. i dont feel the need to even explain myself, plus i dont care about the game enough anymore to so ill just leave it at that lol. i really wish everyone who was working on it wasnt a huuuuuuge melee noob, or at least understood how ****in nooby they were

That's pretty rude talk coming from a moderator. And if you are trying to be funny because you are part of PMBR that one got old a while ago >_>

 

[SAUS]

I'd try it out if my friends did. For now, we are content with melee. I dislike that the game has to be hacked in order for it to not be terrible (just to clarify, I think brawl is terrible and should have just been PM in the first place). Also, after playing games that get patched, I get REALLY annoyed when fundamental things get changed. If I go back to try playing LoL again after not playing for ~2 years, I would not even know wtf is going on. Constantly moving games annoy me. Melee can't be patched or changed (except the European version or something - there was a different version but I forget what people call it) so mastering it is that - mastering it. You don't see chess updates every 6 months.

That's not against you guys though. PM is not even complete. I'd be more interested in it when it is done and again, if my friends want to try it out.

My main gripe with it is that it kind of pulls the melee community apart even more. However, even then, I saw a few posts saying it was a good stepping stone to get into melee and maybe if it combines melee and brawl players, it could be the complete opposite of "pulling the community apart".

Another thing is that I like that melee was an accident. The lack of purposely set combos etc is what made it so interesting. I feel like recreating that feeling would be impossible because it would be created with these sorts of combos in mind. That's me being pessimistic though because it probably wouldn't turn out like that - not with DI and everything.

 

[Silent Wolf]

That's pretty rude talk coming from a moderator. And if you are trying to be funny because you are part of PMBR that one got old a while ago >_>

There is a thin line between "rude talk" and "real talk," usually lol. That's just my honest opinion and why I haven't cared to be part of the pmbr in for a long time now

edit: and for the record, im not just calling them noobs, im implying thats why the game is so poorly designed, cuz its true lol.

edit: and im not just some salty melee head who isnt open to the idea of pm. i was all for it until i realized how cheesy it was becoming.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

There is a thin line between "rude talk" and "real talk," usually lol. That's just my honest opinion and why I haven't cared to be part of the pmbr in for a long time now

edit: and for the record, im not just calling them noobs, im implying thats why the game is so poorly designed, cuz its true lol.

edit: and im not just some salty melee head who isnt open to the idea of pm. i was all for it until i realized how cheesy it was becoming.

It's simply a matter of an opinion. I think your post was rude, you think it was real talk. I don't only think it was rude, I also think you could have voiced your opinion in a manner that would have been much more effective and understandable. For example you feel you don't have the need to explain yourself about what you think is wrong with Ivysaur? That's fine but people like me might not necessarily understand or know what's wrong with Ivysaur. She's campy? Too defensive? Boring? Gay? Really, I'm interested to know what you and other people think.

I think when PMBR are designing moves for characters they should also think how those moves/options can be countered by other characters, everything should have a weakness. I think I speak for most people when I say that I absolutely love characters like Marth or C. Falcon who are great but also have glaring weaknesses. That's why I hope PMBR to be modest when they buff characters and try to make us players to really work hard in order to be successful with that character. Because that's what feels most satisfying in the end, hell that's why chars like Falcon are so satisfying. You have to work hard but when you do it really pays off, and it feels so satisfying to pull off those combos because they can be quite difficult.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

There is a thin line between "rude talk" and "real talk," usually lol. That's just my honest opinion and why I haven't cared to be part of the pmbr in for a long time now

edit: and for the record, im not just calling them noobs, im implying thats why the game is so poorly designed, cuz its true lol.

edit: and im not just some salty melee head who isnt open to the idea of pm. i was all for it until i realized how cheesy it was becoming.

Good **** with the real talk

 

[The_NZA]

Also, to be fair Melee is pretty cheesy. Falco, Shiek, and Peach aren't any less cheesy in their combo game than any PM character. Fox's Usmash couldn't be cheesier, imo. Jiggs...well lets not even go there. Really, Marth and Cfalcon are the only non-"cheesy" melee top tiers. The others excel because of particularly cheesy strings or individually cheesy moves.

Lucky for Cfalcon and Marth, they end up just getting cheesy designs instead of cheesy moves or combo flows (intensely cheesy speed in the case of cfalcon or cheesy disjointed range in marth's case).

 

[SAUS]

Also, to be fair Melee is pretty cheesy. Falco, Shiek, and Peach aren't any less cheesy in their combo game than any PM character. Fox's Usmash couldn't be cheesier, imo. Jiggs...well lets not even go there. Really, Marth and Cfalcon are the only non-"cheesy" melee top tiers. The others excel because of particularly cheesy strings or individually cheesy moves.

Lucky for Cfalcon and Marth, they end up just getting cheesy designs instead of cheesy moves or combo flows (intensely cheesy speed in the case of cfalcon or cheesy disjointed range in marth's case).

I got constipated just from reading this.