What Would Get You Guys Interested in Project M?

Double Helix

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So I almost agree with all of this post too, especially that some of the characters seem to have some bad gimmicks. Examples include Boozer as a whole, Wario's dash grab/side B (but the rest of his character seems pretty solid), and maybe some others but I'd love to hear who you think feels that way as well. Gimmicks = bad because once people learn how to avoid them, the character becomes worse. Mixups = good. Last points are obvious, but whatever; never hurts to reiterate it.

However, when you say that not every move has to be good, that seems somewhat silly. I feel every move should be good/usable in some situation. I think most Ganondorf mains will agree that they wish they had a different utilt or even Fox players saying that they would like a different fair. Of course they would have to be balanced themselves, and you can even argue that Fox can use his fair in certain situations but Ganon's utilt? Not likely.
When I say not every move has to be good, I didn't mean some moves should be unusable (Ganon's utilt). But I get what you mean. The main offender (that I can think of) is DK's fair. I do feel like changing Ganon's utilt was a good thing, but it could have remained bad and became usable. Fox's fair is an example of bad, Ganon's utilt was an example of unusable (though it was hype when Kage hit with it in doubles).

In regards with the gimmicks, I think some of them are actually just so strong that even if they are figured out they could be hard to beat. For instance, I consider 2.5 Sonic to be a gimmick, but I guess that is me.

Another thing I don't like are some of the mechanics. Grabbing the ledge while facing the wrong way is something that probably should not happen (except maybe Ganon and Falcon because they have weird move properties anyway). Being able to do moves after doing up-B was a thing I didn't like from Brawl. I still don't like crouch cancelling. It seems like getting punished for hitting a dude is silly. As a Melee Ness main (oh my...something from the original post?!) I don't like the way the double jump cancel works. I think it should be like Melee (mostly because there is Melee, or the broken 64 one lol). In general, none of the stages seem small at all.

A quick question about 2.6. I read earlier that movement was better, but do the physics still feel forced? That was a problem for me for awhile. It felt like the physics engine was from an unfinished game (because it is unfinished, but still) and I want wavedashes to feel as smooth as they did in Melee (which were a glitch that was left in so it is surprising that they felt smooth).

There was an imbalance argument earlier. Especially in Smash, imbalance should always be something that is in the game. Unless they somehow choose a moveset without ruining the flavor of a character, the characters will probably be really unbalanced. The reason for this imbalance is because the moves focus on unique traits that each character has (or at least existed in their game if they are the only representative). I am all for balancing a cast, but it just seems really tough to do in a game like Smash without artificially boosting a characters strength (like Boozer's superarmor), or losing the flavor of the moveset without making the moves that should have lag, have lag.
 

Landry

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Also, you're the only person to have said Fox and Falco aren't great in PM, which is complete BS.

They're comparatively not as great as Melee. People like that they're clearly the far and away best characters in PM. And I was speaking in hyperbole. Obviously Fox and Falco as still great, so take it easy pal.
 

Rarik

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They're comparatively not as great as Melee. People like that they're clearly the far and away best characters in PM. And I was speaking in hyperbole. Obviously Fox and Falco as still great, so take it easy pal.

Ok, yeah I see the hyperbole now. Sorry, but I tend to take things literally when I'm already salty about you completely ignoring the majority of ItalianStallion's post, while you admit to be an irrational die-hard Melee Fanboy who doesn't realize that Italian had just said that PM wasn't as fast as melee, that yes the tech was easier but it's a bug that they're trying to fix, and that he's completely fine with you liking Melee over PM.
 

Double Helix

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Even though Fox and Falco are good, I feel like that have some of the worst recoveries in the game somehow. Like, everyone recovers better than them in PM.
 

Landry

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Ok, yeah I see the hyperbole now. Sorry, but I tend to take things literally when I'm already salty about you completely ignoring the majority of ItalianStallion's post, while you admit to be an irrational die-hard Melee Fanboy who doesn't realize that Italian had just said that PM wasn't as fast as melee, that yes the tech was easier but it's a bug that they're trying to fix, and that he's completely fine with you liking Melee over PM.
I wasn't critiquing the content of his post at all, I was simply using him as an example of a PM fanboy who seems determined to debate people into liking the game. My point was that it simply doesn't work that way, no logic will convince me (or others) that PM is as good as Melee. It's no big deal, we just have difference preferences. Arguing against it would be like me trying to logically prove to you that your favorite band is actually not as good as my favorite band which you really should like instead.
 

whitmorethetoadpirate

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When I say not every move has to be good, I didn't mean some moves should be unusable (Ganon's utilt). But I get what you mean. The main offender (that I can think of) is DK's fair. I do feel like changing Ganon's utilt was a good thing, but it could have remained bad and became usable. Fox's fair is an example of bad, Ganon's utilt was an example of unusable (though it was hype when Kage hit with it in doubles).
It's most definitely satisfying when his utilt hits, and it was far more useful in doubles than in singles.

In regards with the gimmicks, I think some of them are actually just so strong that even if they are figured out they could be hard to beat. For instance, I consider 2.5 Sonic to be a gimmick, but I guess that is me.
I see what you mean there, and they realized that he was a polarizing character to play against/as. Hopefully they don't make the same mistake twice, but who's to know? We'll see, I guess.


Another thing I don't like are some of the mechanics. Grabbing the ledge while facing the wrong way is something that probably should not happen (except maybe Ganon and Falcon because they have weird move properties anyway). Being able to do moves after doing up-B was a thing I didn't like from Brawl. I still don't like crouch cancelling. It seems like getting punished for hitting a dude is silly. As a Melee Ness main (oh my...something from the original post?!) I don't like the way the double jump cancel works. I think it should be like Melee (mostly because there is Melee, or the broken 64 one lol). In general, none of the stages seem small at all.
Did CC come from Brawl? I was under the assumption that it was in Melee as well, and that's one of the ways to make fighting against Marth (among others) a bit easier. I never really enjoyed Ness in Melee so I'd have to play it a bit to see how the DJCs differ. I never had problems with doing it/using it in PM but I've only played that version of Ness, so my input isn't very useful. Also agree that many of the stages from Brawl feel larger, even if they might not be, I really don't know.

A quick question about 2.6. I read earlier that movement was better, but do the physics still feel forced? That was a problem for me for awhile. It felt like the physics engine was from an unfinished game (because it is unfinished, but still) and I want wavedashes to feel as smooth as they did in Melee (which were a glitch that was left in so it is surprising that they felt smooth).
Uh, I dunno. I've never had problems with WDing or waveshining or anything dealing with WDing in either of the games. I always thought it was weird that people thought that WDing OoS in PM didn't work until 2.6 when I could do it just like I did in Melee. So, again, my input isn't going to be helpful.


There was an imbalance argument earlier. Especially in Smash, imbalance should always be something that is in the game. Unless they somehow choose a moveset without ruining the flavor of a character, the characters will probably be really unbalanced. The reason for this imbalance is because the moves focus on unique traits that each character has (or at least existed in their game if they are the only representative). I am all for balancing a cast, but it just seems really tough to do in a game like Smash without artificially boosting a characters strength (like Boozer's superarmor), or losing the flavor of the moveset without making the moves that should have lag, have lag.

That "perfect imbalance" concept sounded kind of nonsensical to me, so I didn't really look at it too much. No comment on that either I guess.
 

Rarik

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I wasn't critiquing the content of his post at all, I was simply using him as an example of a PM fanboy who seems determined to debate people into liking the game. My point was that it simply doesn't work that way, no logic will convince me (or others) that PM is as good as Melee. It's no big deal, we just have difference preferences. Arguing against it would be like me trying to logically prove to you that your favorite band is actually not as good as my favorite band which you really should like instead.
Never said you were critiquing his post, because frankly it seemed like you hadn't read it at all, and still doesn't. You continue to insist that Italian was trying to get you to like the game, when in fact he was trying to clear up a lot of misconceptions about PM as well as make the same point you've said, that it's fine to not like both.
 

Double Helix

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Did CC come from Brawl? I was under the assumption that it was in Melee as well, and that's one of the ways to make fighting against Marth (among others) a bit easier. I never really enjoyed Ness in Melee so I'd have to play it a bit to see how the DJCs differ. I never had problems with doing it/using it in PM but I've only played that version of Ness, so my input isn't very useful. Also agree that many of the stages from Brawl feel larger, even if they might not be, I really don't know.

Uh, I dunno. I've never had problems with WDing or waveshining or anything dealing with WDing in either of the games. I always thought it was weird that people thought that WDing OoS in PM didn't work until 2.6 when I could do it just like I did in Melee. So, again, my input isn't going to be helpful.
The crouch cancelling was from Melee. I guess I did make the transition between games very ambiguous. I had no idea crouch cancelling was even in Brawl. As for the WDing, I don't have a problem doing it, but it just feels forced. I can do it just find but the "feel" is all wrong. It is mostly a complaint towards the physics engine as a whole, but I felt it was easiest to portray the example via WDing.

I can tell people who play Ness in PM that didn't play him in Melee can do the DJC just fine. From what I have heard, Mofo has the same problem I do though.
 

Rarik

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Try looking at the last couple of pages...
How about you do. I reread page 4 and 5 and saw Italian:

1.) Stating that multiple Melee top-tiers have auto-combos and thus PM with its goal of trying to improve the characters by taking inspiration from Melee top-tiers will also tend to have some characters with auto-combos.
2.) Making the claim that PM is better balanced than Melee and defending it, and talking about PM's goal with balancing the game.
3.) Saying multiple times that he's fine with people liking Melee over PM
4.) Admitting that he made some immature comments about the quality of posts in this thread.
5.) Clearing up some misconceptions about PM that people have been throwing around.
 

whitmorethetoadpirate

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The crouch cancelling was from Melee. I guess I did make the transition between games very ambiguous. I had no idea crouch cancelling was even in Brawl. As for the WDing, I don't have a problem doing it, but it just feels forced. I can do it just find but the "feel" is all wrong. It is mostly a complaint towards the physics engine as a whole, but I felt it was easiest to portray the example via WDing.

I can tell people who play Ness in PM that didn't play him in Melee can do the DJC just fine. From what I have heard, Mofo has the same problem I do though.
Ah, ok. Well then I don't know what to say about WDing feeling wrong since I thought that and l-cancelling (their timing, the way they look and feel) transitioned well, but I can say that I think changing directions in Melee (dashing right while facing left and vice versa) feels weird to me. There's something about it that feels more rigid in Melee than it does in PM. I believe it's because if you try to dash in the opposite direction that you're facing you just pivot instead of immediately start running in that direction, or I'm not moving the control stick quickly enough. Those minute differences are always pretty big though, so I can understand your gripe about the DJC for Ness.
 

Double Helix

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Yeah. I am guessing that you were a Brawl player first then went to PM? I don't know for sure, but it sounds like it. I can see why you would think it feels rigid in Melee. I didn't even realize you didn't pivot in PM. Pivots are awesome! All that aside, the differences are subtle, but there are so many subtle differences that you can easily tell it isn't Melee. I don't find movement as fluid as I do in Melee, but I feel as though that can be fixed. In any case, I don't want Melee 2.0; I already play Melee. I do, however, want a game that feels like Melee. Project Melee is in the name, so I feel as though the game should feel like Melee, even if it doesn't look like Melee and characters play differently and hopefully are more balanced (which is the goal right?).
 

Rarik

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You do pivot in PM. The goal is to be more balanced while having a general melee feel. http://projectmgame.com/en/about goes into more detail about the goal, and you'd have to check and ask around the PM forums for more details on what's bugged and causing the subtle differences. (Biggest ones being the 1 frame physics delay and stage collision being off)
 

whitmorethetoadpirate

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Nah, I actually played Melee from when it came out to somewhere like '07; never entered any tourneys though. Every time I wanted to play Melee at friends' houses they wanted to play Brawl. I never really liked played Brawl at all, too slow for me. Thing is I never learned any of the AT until I started playing PM. I do pivot in PM, it's just that for some reason changing direction in Melee feels very strange to me. And yes, the goal is to make it similar but have it not be a 1:1 copy of Melee.
 

metaknighter

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I've got some tough ones and easy ones. A Reggie Fils-Aime skin for Falcon. Mewtwo, which I expect would be fairly difficult but it would be cool. Also with the Mewtwo thing, if he could levitate similarly to Peach that'd be so cool. Princess Jiggs skin from Melee, And last but not least, for the PMBR developers to keep up the good work! Love Project M and all that it accomplishes! :)
 

The_NZA

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When I say not every move has to be good, I didn't mean some moves should be unusable (Ganon's utilt). But I get what you mean. The main offender (that I can think of) is DK's fair. I do feel like changing Ganon's utilt was a good thing, but it could have remained bad and became usable. Fox's fair is an example of bad, Ganon's utilt was an example of unusable (though it was hype when Kage hit with it in doubles).

In regards with the gimmicks, I think some of them are actually just so strong that even if they are figured out they could be hard to beat. For instance, I consider 2.5 Sonic to be a gimmick, but I guess that is me.

Another thing I don't like are some of the mechanics. Grabbing the ledge while facing the wrong way is something that probably should not happen (except maybe Ganon and Falcon because they have weird move properties anyway). Being able to do moves after doing up-B was a thing I didn't like from Brawl. I still don't like crouch cancelling. It seems like getting punished for hitting a dude is silly. As a Melee Ness main (oh my...something from the original post?!) I don't like the way the double jump cancel works. I think it should be like Melee (mostly because there is Melee, or the broken 64 one lol). In general, none of the stages seem small at all.

A quick question about 2.6. I read earlier that movement was better, but do the physics still feel forced? That was a problem for me for awhile. It felt like the physics engine was from an unfinished game (because it is unfinished, but still) and I want wavedashes to feel as smooth as they did in Melee (which were a glitch that was left in so it is surprising that they felt smooth).

There was an imbalance argument earlier. Especially in Smash, imbalance should always be something that is in the game. Unless they somehow choose a moveset without ruining the flavor of a character, the characters will probably be really unbalanced. The reason for this imbalance is because the moves focus on unique traits that each character has (or at least existed in their game if they are the only representative). I am all for balancing a cast, but it just seems really tough to do in a game like Smash without artificially boosting a characters strength (like Boozer's superarmor), or losing the flavor of the moveset without making the moves that should have lag, have lag.


The physics feel way smoother, as in wavedashing is much more natural. Ness's DJC was given more windows for the DJC over the rising aerial, meaning you can easily do things like melee/64 or like brawl depending on your choice. Characters still have good and bad matchups without there being completely broken unviable matchups.
 

The_NZA

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I wasn't critiquing the content of his post at all, I was simply using him as an example of a PM fanboy who seems determined to debate people into liking the game. My point was that it simply doesn't work that way, no logic will convince me (or others) that PM is as good as Melee. It's no big deal, we just have difference preferences. Arguing against it would be like me trying to logically prove to you that your favorite band is actually not as good as my favorite band which you really should like instead.


Look dude, you are the ONLY one calling people fanboys. You basically said "**** you PM fanboys trying to tell me its a better game. It's not as fast, easier technically, and doesn't feel like melee. Italion Stallino is the example of everything wrong."

The reality is those of us who are fans of PM are NOT trying to tell you you are wrong about everything. We are trying to tell correct your misinformation and telling you to give it a chance.

For example: you said "I don't like that the game is less technical".
Well, did you know that you now have pivot grabs, b reversals, wave bounces, and glide tossing to utilize as well as figuring out the technicalities of edgeguarding (admittedly) more difficult recoveries? On top of that, you have a plethora of new characters with mobility options that challenge your imagination more than any melee character (charizard, ike). Maybe, those "technical" aspects are things you can try in PM.

You said: "It's slower/doesn't feel as good"
I asked: "have you played 2.6?" As far as I'm concerned (and you should feel this way as well), you have no right to judge the physics of the game if you aren't playing the most recent version. Otherwise, you aren't even opening yourself to liking it.

You said: "fox and falco are less balanced and i don't know why that's a good thing" (paraphrasing).
We said: "You are right, if you want a game where the top two characters are leagues ahead of the rest in toolset, then melee is your game. BUT PM is presenting you the chance to watch many more viable playstyles and challenging matchups with spacies still having the best toolsets in the game (albeit they are challenged by a slew of new characters that present new challenges).

We have never said PM is better JUST BECAUSE. We have only taken the time in this topic to correct misinformation and ask Melee fans to try 2.6. I feel only a vocal minority of Melee fans have legit said "Lol pm sucks cause its brawl but a lil faster. Its maybe a lil better than brawl lol" which rightfully so should infuriate EVERYONE reading this board. Because at the end of the day PM will ALWAYS have more in common with melee than brawl and for people to say its marginally better than brawl (a competitive joke of a game, imo) directly insults every hour of work the developers put into the game.
 

ItalianStallion

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Haha! Seems like I missed a little bit here.

I just want to throw in that what Rarik was saying about my intent/posts is correct.

1. I do not mind if people like Melee over PM.
2. My main pet peeve is when people critique PM based on bad information, or bad arguments.
3. My main argument to make is that PM is undeniably a better balanced game and therefore much more suited for competition.
4. My main goal is not to convince people to like PM more, but rather to make sure that bad arguments and shaky reasoning don't run rampant and therefore give all the PM fans a headache as they try to clear up the misinformation.
5. I can sometimes be immature.
 

Shadow Huan

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to reiterate my original point, I would he very happy if some creativity was used reguarding the melee tops instead of making them 1:1 copies.

that's most puzzling to me. nearly all other fighting type games alter characters from game to game, even the top tiers.

Talking to the wind but whatever lol
 

killazys

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Once P:M is officially out of demo (at developers' discretion) I really think it should no longer be patched at all. SC2 really got worse and worse because Blizzard kept releasing these metagame balance patches that "balanced" the three races, but forced the exact same strategy all the time for Z and makes the game, now, very formulaic and boring to play.

I'm scared P:M might become that way if people keep clamoring for patches as opposed to letting the metagame evolve to handle the game's unique quirks.
 

The_NZA

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In general, none of the stages seem small at all.


For example, this is "misinformation". You can't say "none of the stages are small at all", when this game added metal caverns, warioware, green hill zone, and Yoshi's island brawl. All four of those stages are small and 3/4 of them are usually legal neutrals. That means in a PM pool, out of 6-8 neutrals, you normally end up with half or close to half of the starters being small. In comparison to Melee, where Yoshi's island was your only option.

Just because Dracula's castle and Jungle japes exist doesn't mean the smaller new stages don't exist either.
 

Deathconsciousness

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A lobotomy. If I wanted to play Melee, I'd pop it into my Wii, and play it. Project M is nothing more than a 15-minute novelty to me.
 

The_NZA

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Once P:M is officially out of demo (at developers' discretion) I really think it should no longer be patched at all. SC2 really got worse and worse because Blizzard kept releasing these metagame balance patches that "balanced" the three races, but forced the exact same strategy all the time for Z and makes the game, now, very formulaic and boring to play.

I'm scared P:M might become that way if people keep clamoring for patches as opposed to letting the metagame evolve to handle the game's unique quirks.

Oh yeah, because warp in psionic storm, 30 second bunkers, speed void rays, and mass snipe were so good for the game.

Just because they did one bad patch (im guessing you mean the +2 range on queens/overlord speed) doesn't discredit all the good patches. Also, their problem didn't stem from the patch––it stemmed from having too good of a lategame for zerg, and the patch just made it easier to get there. Right now in HOTS, hellbat drops were good in every matchup and so Terrans were doing the same efficient "formulaic and boring" plays. Through patches, the hellbat is now still an option in every matchup but it doesn't end games at 6 minutes.

If HOTs wasn't on the horizon, Blizzard would have likely patched WoL to not have as stagnant an endgame but that patch never came because an expansion came in its said.

Like someone else said, people in other communities (especially FGC) beg for biannual patches to balance their game. Thats why people get so pumped about Arcade Edition and super turbo hyper edition arcade SF4––because the minor patches can allow for better balance and more dynamic play. I have NO idea why people are so against this idea. I mean, it's cool if a final version gets the fundamentals solidified, but I'm fine with a hitbox coming a few frames later or minor changes after the game is out in final form, just to maintain and revisit the balance.
 

Double Helix

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For example, this is "misinformation". You can't say "none of the stages are small at all", when this game added metal caverns, warioware, green hill zone, and Yoshi's island brawl. All four of those stages are small and 3/4 of them are usually legal neutrals. That means in a PM pool, out of 6-8 neutrals, you normally end up with half or close to half of the starters being small. In comparison to Melee, where Yoshi's island was your only option.

Just because Dracula's castle and Jungle japes exist doesn't mean the smaller new stages don't exist either.
Okay, but when I last played on those stages, the blastzones were not small. They happen to be a part of the stage. None of the stages really felt small at all, except maybe warioware. Yoshi's Island Brawl does not feel like a small stage. The blastzones don't go too far beyond the stage, but the stage is kinda big to be called small. It just seems like on all the stages, there is either a lot of room and big blastzones, a lot of room and relatively closer blastzones, and less room and relatively far blastzones. But none of them feel like the stage is small and the blastzones are too. It is not "misinformation" considering it is HIGHLY opinion. But since you enjoy calling people's opinion wrong, I will call yours wrong in response.

That said, I agree that if patches don't continue to come out after all the characters are added and fixed if needed, then the gameplay will not get as many Melee players as it should.
 

The_NZA

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Okay, but when I last played on those stages, the blastzones were not small. They happen to be a part of the stage. None of the stages really felt small at all, except maybe warioware. Yoshi's Island Brawl does not feel like a small stage. The blastzones don't go too far beyond the stage, but the stage is kinda big to be called small. It just seems like on all the stages, there is either a lot of room and big blastzones, a lot of room and relatively closer blastzones, and less room and relatively far blastzones. But none of them feel like the stage is small and the blastzones are too. It is not "misinformation" considering it is HIGHLY opinion. But since you enjoy calling people's opinion wrong, I will call yours wrong in response.

That said, I agree that if patches don't continue to come out after all the characters are added and fixed if needed, then the gameplay will not get as many Melee players as it should.


This isn't about opinion. Stage size generally indicates area of stage, which is pretty small. If you want to talk blastzones, then you are right in that it takes some out of the mix.

In Melee you have:
DL64 (large all around)
FD (medium-large all around)
FoD (medium, large vertically)
PKS1 (medium), medium vertically)
YI M (small all around)

Of the ones i mentioned, PM added:
Metal caverns (large sides, medium ceiling) [overally fairly big]
YI Brawl (large sides, high ceiling) [you were right about this]
Warioware (short sides, high ceiling)
Green hillzone (short sides, high ceiling)

both green hillzone and warioware have what you would call short blast zones. Then, you can also look at PKS2 (medium sides, short ceiling), Dracula's castle (large sides, short ceiling), and SSE jungle (large stage but with short celining and short sides).

So essentially, you are still adding small stages into the stagelist (blastzone wise, size wise, sometimes large size and small blastzones, sometimes small stage with blastzones). In general, its a silly argument when in melee most stages did not have that much variation in blastzones at the competitive level. You mostly had yoshi's island blast zones, or dream land 64 blast zones and everything in between was fairly similar to one another with slight differences (6-8% on killmoves). PM gives you a ton of variety in every regard, and the best part of smash? you can play with the stagelist you like.
 

Double Helix

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That is true. However Pokemon Stadium Melee has a small ceiling. Either way, I guess the reason I feel as though every stage is kinda big in Project M is because I never feel like a character's movement options are changed very much due to a stage unless it is FD. In Melee, FD and Yoshi's are really good Luigi stages due to the ability to cover the entire surface of each stage much faster than most characters. His FD movement is sick and his Yoshi's movement can be quite annoying to follow. His movement on FoD is much more limited, because the varying platforms make it much different than moving on Yoshi's. Falcon sucks on Yoshi's compared to all other stages, but I don't think FoD is that good for him either. Those are a few examples. I feel like in Project M, everyone has room to do what they need to, which would make it much more difficult to counterpick against Falcon or in favor of Luigi on PM. I know that there is more to counterpicking a stage than movement, but every character seems too mobile in the game.

So my real problem might be mobility, or the stages' lacking ability to hinder it. That is what my experience has been so far. Like I said in earlier posts, I need to try 2.6, but I don't have my Wii right now.
 

Landry

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In response to this...

1. I do think that PM is less technically demanding. The window for different things just seems a lot easier and there's a lot more room for error in PM. I'm not the only one who thinks this - many Melee players I know feel the same way.

2. I have played 2.6 and I still think PM is slower than Melee. This may be a result of mechanics of the fact that the game rewards campier gameplay for many characters or a combination of these things.

3. The competitive balance between the top 6-8 characters in Melee is a lot more organic than any matchup in PM. I agree with KK and Toph that some PM matchups/combos seem pretty scripted where as in Melee these things developed over years of metagame refinement.

Look, I still don't care that you like PM more. I like it too, I think it's a great game. I just don't like it as much as Melee. Your attempts to "correct misinformation" is actually just a thinly veiled attempt to spout your opinions about how PM is a better game than Melee. It's annoying and quite honestly PM fanboys make me less likely to play the game seriously, not more.

For example, this kind of stuff is not productive at all -

[PM is] undeniably a better game.
 

The_NZA

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That is true. However Pokemon Stadium Melee has a small ceiling. Either way, I guess the reason I feel as though every stage is kinda big in Project M is because I never feel like a character's movement options are changed very much due to a stage unless it is FD. In Melee, FD and Yoshi's are really good Luigi stages due to the ability to cover the entire surface of each stage much faster than most characters. His FD movement is sick and his Yoshi's movement can be quite annoying to follow. His movement on FoD is much more limited, because the varying platforms make it much different than moving on Yoshi's. Falcon sucks on Yoshi's compared to all other stages, but I don't think FoD is that good for him either. Those are a few examples. I feel like in Project M, everyone has room to do what they need to, which would make it much more difficult to counterpick against Falcon or in favor of Luigi on PM. I know that there is more to counterpicking a stage than movement, but every character seems too mobile in the game.

So my real problem might be mobility, or the stages' lacking ability to hinder it. That is what my experience has been so far. Like I said in earlier posts, I need to try 2.6, but I don't have my Wii right now.

When you talk about luigi's power on certain stages or cfalcon's power on certain stages, I think it is worth mentioning you are talking about an advanced ceiling––the minutiae of advancement of play. Surely it took you years of playing on FD or yoshi's or fod with luigi and cfalcon to notice "cfalcon isn't as good on FoD" and and "[luigi's] ability to cover the whole stage" of FD and yoshi's island makes him great. People are going through the PM cast on week two or three since 2.6's release and are starting to figure out the same things.

"I like fox on skyworld because my upb gives me enough vertical and horizontal height that when i recover from the right side, I can force my opponent into a difficult guessing game on whether I will be landing on the high platform or the ground or the ledge".

"I like Dracula's castle as Ike because the varying platforms can easily be covered by my uairs and I can try and charge forward b's to wall jump off the large walls".

Mastering a character takes time, but having a stage preference is a whole other deal. The truth is, more characters in PM have better mobility than in Melee. That's what you get when you have a balanced cast. But in Melee's top 8, think of everyone who was mobile? Shiek, Marth, Fox, Falco, Cfalcon, Jiggs, IC's...really who wasnt' mobile? Maybe you can make an argument for Doc mario or Peach. In PM, stage counterpicks give you so much variety not only in the variety of the stages offered, but in the types of play styles that will be pair against one another.

Bowser v. Wolf, ZSS v. Zelda. your favorite melee veteran against Lucario. Tons of characters in PM have a diversity of mobility, and some are exceptionally mobile in one direction (charizard/ddd vertically, wario/ness/rob aerially, ganon in bursts/predictably through down b). As this game evolves, and if you choose to join it and play it and enjoy the metagame, we will find optimal stages for our characters. All we need is to flesh out the metagame and construct good tourney stage striking rules. Because the good tools for good play already exist and are here in 2.6.

I actually want to take a moment to reflect on Melee's stage rules. Do you really like the way stages work in pools? Where the only three really different stages are DL64, FD, and Yoshi's story in melee, so in the banning process we end up with BF in what feels like more than 50% of the games? All because when I play your character who is different from mine, one of us is likely to do better on DL64, one of us is likely to do way better in a small stage like YS, and if we are a spacie, we are scared of your character on FD so those three always get banned?

I'll pass. I'd rather have more stages and sensible competitive rules that still allow for powerful counter picks and dynamic and interesting games.
 

The_NZA

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1,979
In response to this...

Look, I still don't care that you like PM more. I like it too, I think it's a great game. I just don't like it as much as Melee. Your attempts to "correct misinformation" is actually just a thinly veiled attempt to spout your opinions about how PM is a better game than Melee. It's annoying and quite honestly PM fanboys make me less likely to play the game seriously, not more.

For example, this kind of stuff is not productive at all -
I have outright said my opinion that I prefer PM. If you find that annoying, thats too bad. I can understand why you would prefer melee and more power to you. But there is no *veiled* attempt afoot––i really am correcting misinformation.

-You mentioned autocombos and i mentioned percentages of the viable cast in melee that autocombos.

-You mentioned mechanics and I asked that you try 2.6 (you are finally admitting that you did, and now that you have you wont find me accusing you of lying or anything...if you really feel mechanically that 2.6 isn't closer in speed or that the game won't be as fast as melee, thats fine).

-You mentioned recoveries being too strong and I agreed with you that that is a pretty good complaint.


-You think PM is more campy. We have asked you MULTIPLE TIMES to back that claim up (what moves), seeing as the two campiest characters in smash are still fox/falco. We also said, having a campy toolset (like fox/falco) doesnt mean thats the preferred way to play them. Finally, we said "in a cast with more diversity of styles, some "more defensive" playstyles might open up, like Zelda's or Bowsers. That doesn't account for the other 30 some characters.

I think you are spouting opinions as fact, we are correcting facts and asking your rationale about your opinions, and you are lashing back by saying we are being annoying and and are actually trying to spout OUR opinions as facts. Whatever man. Melee's a cool game with 64 "organic" viable matchups and 8 characters. That is really cool and those matchups are very figured out. I can understand why that is a lot of fun. But I like Ness, and I like trying new characters, and I like having hundreds of matchups to play. I really like PM. I hope that's okay with you.
 

Double Helix

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When you talk about luigi's power on certain stages or cfalcon's power on certain stages, I think it is worth mentioning you are talking about an advanced ceiling––the minutiae of advancement of play. Surely it took you years of playing on FD or yoshi's or fod with luigi and cfalcon to notice "cfalcon isn't as good on FoD" and and "[luigi's] ability to cover the whole stage" of FD and yoshi's island makes him great. People are going through the PM cast on week two or three since 2.6's release and are starting to figure out the same things.

"I like fox on skyworld because my upb gives me enough vertical and horizontal height that when i recover from the right side, I can force my opponent into a difficult guessing game on whether I will be landing on the high platform or the ground or the ledge".

"I like Dracula's castle as Ike because the varying platforms can easily be covered by my uairs and I can try and charge forward b's to wall jump off the large walls".

Mastering a character takes time, but having a stage preference is a whole other deal. The truth is, more characters in PM have better mobility than in Melee. That's what you get when you have a balanced cast. But in Melee's top 8, think of everyone who was mobile? Shiek, Marth, Fox, Falco, Cfalcon, Jiggs, IC's...really who wasnt' mobile? Maybe you can make an argument for Doc mario or Peach. In PM, stage counterpicks give you so much variety not only in the variety of the stages offered, but in the types of play styles that will be pair against one another.

Bowser v. Wolf, ZSS v. Zelda. your favorite melee veteran against Lucario. Tons of characters in PM have a diversity of mobility, and some are exceptionally mobile in one direction (charizard/ddd vertically, wario/ness/rob aerially, ganon in bursts/predictably through down b). As this game evolves, and if you choose to join it and play it and enjoy the metagame, we will find optimal stages for our characters. All we need is to flesh out the metagame and construct good tourney stage striking rules. Because the good tools for good play already exist and are here in 2.6.

I actually want to take a moment to reflect on Melee's stage rules. Do you really like the way stages work in pools? Where the only three really different stages are DL64, FD, and Yoshi's story in melee, so in the banning process we end up with BF in what feels like more than 50% of the games? All because when I play your character who is different from mine, one of us is likely to do better on DL64, one of us is likely to do way better in a small stage like YS, and if we are a spacie, we are scared of your character on FD so those three always get banned?

I'll pass. I'd rather have more stages and sensible competitive rules that still allow for powerful counter picks and dynamic and interesting games.
I know it takes a long time to get a metagame such as Melee's. There are also a lot of characters outside of the top 8 who are mobile. The Mario bros are mobile and Peach (whom you mentioned), but there is also Ness, Roy, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Young Link, Yoshi, and maybe G&W. So that is 17 really mobile characters. Young Link is limited by a stage without a top platform, Ness is limited on Yoshi's Story (in most matchups). Most of the stage stuff is personal preference, but when it comes down to it, you said you like PM which is fine. Like I said, it has been awhile since I have played PM. I have mentioned reasons other than stages in previous posts. I would like to hear your opinion on those. Because if some of those are fixed, then I would pick up PM.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,979
Hmm...i felt like I answered many of your complaints with my observations but let me know if there are any i haven't.

You mentioned how the mobility/wavedashing in PM feels a bit wrong, and I said that 2.6 naturalizes it very much and makes it feel really good.

You mentioned how Ness's DJC feels bad and I mentioned how in 2.6 they gave you more frames to execute it so it feels pretty similar to melee with the added benefit of the rising aerials.

you mentioned the stages and I addressed that pretty thoroughly to the best of my abilities.

What else can I speak on?
 

Double Helix

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I feel as though the way they are balancing characters isn't really the best way to go about it. I feel like they are trying to make every move good in terms of speed, hitboxes, and lack of lag. The example I used was DK's fair. The move is fast now, lacks lag, and I can't really tell why. The refutation used earlier was Ganon's utilt. But there is a difference between bad and unusable. They are only making moves faster or increasing the hitboxes from what I can tell.
 

standardtoaster

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If a move is ****ty in melee because has really bad hitbox sizes or is extremely slow what else are you going to do? It doesn't make sense to keep it with really poor hitboxes
 

ItalianStallion

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Long post, so I hid it. EDIT: Don't know why the first spoiler tag is even there. I only put one in the post.

1. I do think that PM is less technically demanding. The window for different things just seems a lot easier and there's a lot more room for error in PM. I'm not the only one who thinks this - many Melee players I know feel the same way.
You have a point in that PM is more forgiving than Melee at some technical things. Most of it is a result of the 1 frame lag and other similar bugs that need to be ironed out. Some of it is intentional, like you no longer need to jump cancel an up-smash from dashing. After the bugs are ironed out, PM still won't be 1:1 with Melee technically, but the similarities will be way more pronounced than the small differences, like not needing to jump cancel an up-smash. If someone doesn't want to try PM because they don't need to jump cancel an up-smash from dashing, and that is enough to quell their interest over everything else the game offers, then that's fine. I might think that kind of stance is ridiculous, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try to force them to like the game.

However, you don't have a point because PM adds a bunch of new technical things to master.
Well, did you know that you now have pivot grabs, b reversals, wave bounces, and glide tossing to utilize as well as figuring out the technicalities of edgeguarding (admittedly) more difficult recoveries? On top of that, you have a plethora of new characters with mobility options that challenge your imagination more than any melee character (charizard, ike). Maybe, those "technical" aspects are things you can try in PM.
The new general tech things along with those that are character specific add a ton of technical dimension to the game.

2. I have played 2.6 and I still think PM is slower than Melee. This may be a result of mechanics of the fact that the game rewards campier gameplay for many characters or a combination of these things.
Of course PM is slightly slower than Melee. No PM fans have said they are 1:1 yet. It gets closer with every patch though. On the campy gameplay for many character front, I really don't understand where you are coming from. Can you give me a list of character you feel gets rewarded for campy gameplay? Keep in mind, if your list is longer than a few names, more than likely some of the names on that list actually get more rewarded for offensive gameplay because VERY few characters in PM are designed to play better defensively. And what do you mean that the game rewards campy gameplay?

3. The competitive balance between the top 6-8 characters in Melee is a lot more organic than any matchup in PM. I agree with KK and Toph that some PM matchups/combos seem pretty scripted where as in Melee these things developed over years of metagame refinement.
Why do people keep throwing around words like "Organic" or "Perfect Imbalance" to describe Melee top tier match-ups? What does that even mean? Try to explain it to me without using the word organic again.

And how are combos in PM more scripted? Let's take a few examples from Melee. In Melee, if Falco shines you, he can dair you back down and shine you again. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that those moves work well in tandem. Now let's look at PM Wolf. When Wolf shines you, he actually has a ton of viable options he can choose from depending on the match-up, and the percentage of his opponent. It's up to the community to figure out which option works best for what situation. Let's look at Shiek from Melee. Down throwing somebody at high percent means they will be set up very nicely for a fair. There isn't much else Shiek will want to do instead for a kill after she down throws like that. Now let's say PM Zero Suit Samus down threw somebody at high percent. Depending on the match-up, she has a ton of options. She could try for a fair, or a u-air (One hits to the side, one hits up), or she could try to extend the combo and force the opponent more towards the edge with her nair, OR she could try to extend the combo and dair the person to set up for an up b pull-down to a down smash stun to a dair to uair (Along with a ton of other options/possibilities). It's not all guaranteed to work obviously (There still is DI and teching), but the idea with most PM characters is to use their offensive options wisely depending on the situation. If Melee developers didn't write the metagame for it, then PM developers didn't write the metagame for us. The difference between them is how many tools and options they gave to each character.

And saying that Melee had more time to develop the metagame is very true, but that doesn't means it's the home run argument that wins the World Series. Give PM more time and it will be making the same argument. I don't understand why this is being brought up so often in this thread. No PM fan has argued against Melee didn't have time to develop the metagame and we all have responded with the same point over and over again: Give PM more time and it will be making the same argument.

Look, I still don't care that you like PM more. I like it too, I think it's a great game. I just don't like it as much as Melee. Your attempts to "correct misinformation" is actually just a thinly veiled attempt to spout your opinions about how PM is a better game than Melee. It's annoying and quite honestly PM fanboys make me less likely to play the game seriously, not more.
First of all, I don't care if you like Melee more. I am also not trying to convince people to play PM over Melee. My main motivation of entering the debate in this thread was to defend the game that a lot of people were bashing based on misinformation or bad arguments. If that gets people to play PM, awesome, but it is not my goal. And I've made it no secret how PM is a better game than Melee (And I love Melee). I'm going to sum up the arguments people have made in their claim that Melee is a better game:

1. Melee top tier matchups are more organic and naturally balanced.
I still don't know exactly what this means(And I doubt many who are saying it do as well). How I see it, the Melee developers who might not have known how competitive play would have been, got lucky with the top characters of Melee and made them all within each other's skill level to make for interesting competition. However, they really screwed the pooch when it came to most of the cast. PM developers who do know how competitive play is done, took inspiration from what was awesome in Melee, added their own ideas, and came up with a fully viable cast. Now it's up to the community to explore the characters beyond what the developers intended.

2. Melee has had a long time to make the metagame interesting and deep.
No argument here. What I and many others wish to stress is that PM will be in the same boat years down the road. So this argument doesn't really work.

3. Melee's engine is better (Faster, more technical, etc.)
Again, you have a point, but this is not PM's final engine. Along with that, PM added a ton of interesting new techniques and strategies to their engine.

Now for the main argument that PM is a better game:

1. PM, while being almost identical to Melee in almost every way, also has new techniques, new features, new characters, and a fully viable cast.

I honestly don't see how people can't look at that and say that Melee's arguments win. One of them has never been fully clarified. One of them will apply to PM in the future. And the other one is something PMBR intends to fix.

Also, if you want to call me a fanboy, be more accurate and call me a PM/Melee fanboy. I am a fan of both.
 

Shadic

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In many cases, they did BOTH though. That is what doesn't make sense to me.
Can you name some specific moves that you think were "overbuffed?"

And it's not like "characters with good attacks on almost every move" are foreign in Melee. Spacies and Sheik in particular have a couple a mediocre moves at best. (Spacie Fair, Sheik's Chain and the existence of Zelda) everything else on them is just good, which is part of what makes them so effective.

And when criticizing Project M character designs, (Or anything really) you should really be looking at 2.6. It's improved in just about every way compared to 2.5. Sonic hasn't proven himself an abomination in 2.6 as of yet, as an example.
 

The_NZA

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Can you name some specific moves that you think were "overbuffed?"

And it's not like "characters with good attacks on almost every move" are foreign in Melee. Spacies and Sheik in particular have a couple a mediocre moves at best. (Spacie Fair, Sheik's Chain and the existence of Zelda) everything else on them is just good, which is part of what makes them so effective.

And when criticizing Project M character designs, (Or anything really) you should really be looking at 2.6. It's improved in just about every way compared to 2.5. Sonic hasn't proven himself an abomination in 2.6 as of yet, as an example.

Falco, similarly has 0 moves without purpose. fair even gets used by pp.
 

Double Helix

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I guess I will play 2.6 after I am done with school for the summer to give you some examples if there are any.

There are few characters that have moves without purpose in Melee honestly. I play Ness in Melee, and I have used every move (with purpose). He is bottom tier. The existence of Zelda is GOOD for recovering on big stages. But still, look at Vectorman play Yoshi. I have seen him use all of the moves (even the side-B). Most of Bowser's moves are used in the Zenith 2013 set of DJ Nintendo vs. Unknown.

However, those moves that do not lack purpose can still be bad. Ness's PSI Magnet, Yoshi's side-B, Bowser's Fsmash. Bad moves are still used; that does not make them not bad.

Anyways, after I play all the characters in 2.6 (which could be just awful) I will tell which moves I think have gotten overbuffed (probably will be on slower characters if any of them).
 

ItalianStallion

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In the topic of over-buffing, I think it's important to remember that it seems hypocritical to criticize the PMBR for any perceived over-buffing when Falco's dair is still the most ridiculously overpowered move in PM and that comes straight from Melee. DK's fair, or whatever other moves you might suggest aren't going to come close to Falco's dair.
 
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