What franchise is underapprociated/underrepresented in ultimate.

[Quillion]

It's about accurately depicting what is happening in said games so they can appeal more to both old veterans, newer players, and people who have yet to play those games.

You are correct here. This is what I mean when people need to focus on quality of representation instead of quantity.

The problem is that I see everyone prioritizing quantity as the only deciding factor of representation. There's actually nothing wrong with "more", but quantity has to serve quality. People are treating quantity as if it's the only quality. People are focusing on "underrepresentation" (low quantity) rather than "poor representation" (low quality).

Heck, I actually think you're properly arguing about what Kirby needs in representation: qualities from a certain era of Kirby rather than a quantity of characters from that period. I'm just not convinced that there is anything modern Kirby does significantly differently from classic Kirby, and the only two viable recurring characters, Bandana Dee and Galacta Knight, aren't terribly exciting or interesting.

 

[Mamboo07]

You are correct here. This is what I mean when people need to focus on quality of representation instead of quantity.

The problem is that I see everyone prioritizing quantity as the only deciding factor of representation. There's actually nothing wrong with "more", but quantity has to serve quality. People are treating quantity as if it's the only quality. People are focusing on "underrepresentation" (low quantity) rather than "poor representation" (low quality).

Heck, I actually think you're properly arguing about what Kirby needs in representation: qualities from a certain era of Kirby rather than a quantity of characters from that period. I'm just not convinced that there is anything modern Kirby does significantly differently from classic Kirby, and the only two viable recurring characters, Bandana Dee and Galacta Knight, aren't terribly exciting or interesting.

Bandana Dee is an interesting character, we haven't had a spear wielder in Smash before. (And Galacta Knight as an Echo could work.)

 

[Quillion]

Bandana Dee is an interesting character, we haven't had a spear wielder in Smash before. (And Galacta Knight as an Echo could work.)

We already have Byleth, though. And besides, what can a spear do that literally any other weapon can't in Smash?

 

[Perkilator]

We already have Byleth, though. And besides, what can a spear do that literally any other weapon can't in Smash?

The spear uses is only a few buttons, all of which are side inputs. Bandana Dee, on the other hand, can do things like TOSS his spear and turn it into 3, use it as a helicopter, etc.

Here’s the full moveset in Star Allies if you want it: https://wikirby.com/wiki/Bandana_Waddle_Dee#Moveset

 

[Quillion]

The spear uses is only a few buttons, all of which are side inputs. Bandana Dee, on the other hand, can do things like TOSS his spear and turn it into 3, use it as a helicopter, etc.

Here’s the full moveset in Star Allies if you want it: https://wikirby.com/wiki/Bandana_Waddle_Dee#Moveset

Meh, still not impressed. One of my issues with modern Kirby is that a lot of the "new abilities" are very samey, especially the weapon-based ones, and spear is no exception. It has the same one-two-rapid attack as Sword, Beetle, Whip, etc., and up and down attacks like any other ability.

Way too many people assume that "recurring in many games" means "needs to be in Smash" for whatever reason. Where's the people who want Beedle from the Zelda series, then?

 

[Perkilator]

Meh, still not impressed. One of my issues with modern Kirby is that a lot of the "new abilities" are very samey, especially the weapon-based ones, and spear is no exception. It has the same one-two-rapid attack as Sword, Beetle, Whip, etc., and up and down attacks like any other ability.

Way too many people assume that "recurring in many games" means "needs to be in Smash" for whatever reason. Where's the people who want Beedle from the Zelda series, then?

Okay, fair enough with most attacks feeling ”samey”, but it’s not exactly easy to make Copy Abilities that are nothing alike from each other. Furthermore, I’m not very familiar with Beedle, but as far as I can tell…he only exists as a comic-relief collector. Can somebody correct if I’m wrong? Just curious.

 

[Arthur97]

If we're talking Kirby, I can think of at least three. The obvious Bandanna Dee, a Rick, Koo, and Kine combo deal (maybe with Gooey in their Finale Smash), and Dark Meta Knight, but not as an echo. I think you could make enough changes that he wouldn't need to be an echo. Like, having his down smash be him stabbing into the ground and having two blades shoot upward on both sides of him. Star Allies of course helps demonstrate some of his potential. Other things they could do is actually have him use some more sword ability/playable Meta Knight moves. Like having down tilt be the sword slide.

There is also a bit of a difference between recurring shopkeeper and recurring NPC/player four. Though, in the end, one can simply be more popular than the other.

 

[Quillion]

Okay, fair enough with most attacks feeling ”samey”, but it’s not exactly easy to make Copy Abilities that are nothing alike from each other.

Super Star managed that; don't understand why they can't do it again.

Furthermore, I’m not very familiar with Beedle, but as far as I can tell…he only exists as a comic-relief collector. Can somebody correct if I’m wrong? Just curious.

There is also a bit of a difference between recurring shopkeeper and recurring NPC/player four. Though, in the end, one can simply be more popular than the other.

Both BWD and Beedle are recurring NPCs (BWD was only made P4 out of convenience in RTDL, and literally any other helper or dream friend can be P4 in SA). So I don't really see a difference between the two.

 

[Perkilator]

Both BWD and Beedle are recurring NPCs (BWD was only made P4 out of convenience in RTDL, and literally any other helper or dream friend can be P4 in SA). So I don't really see a difference between the two.

Bandana Dee literally has played some kind of supporting role in every Kirby game since Return to Dream Land (from both playable to non-playable) where’s Beedle was just sort of…there, as a shopkeeper.

Can we PLEASE stop this thread from derailing?

 

[Louie G.]

Speaking of playable franchises, I think Punch-Out has it pretty bad as well. Spirits are technically all it truly has as well, along with and Boxing Ring. No Assist Trophies* and only 5 songs (3 of which are just the same songs, just different versions).

I'm very grateful that someone brought this up as I came into this thread ready to say the exact same thing. But I am going to talk about it anyway.

I won't even bother getting too deep into how Mac is treated, but I hate how polarizing of a playstyle he has. Like, we get it, he's a normal dude and he can't fight in the air. Dudley can fight in the air just fine, what's his excuse? Hate how his weakness is so glaringly obvious and just makes fights as or against him lame when in reality Punch Out battles are SO much fun. I hope they'll reconsider this if Mac is lucky enough to be a mainstay. Considering he was my most wanted character by far, I'm really disappointed I can't main him reliably because he's a very special and personal character to me regardless. I've stockholmed myself to learning him and getting him into Elite anyway. I love my boy.

WALL OF TEXT ALERT. I LOVE THIS SERIES.

So let's put it into perspective... Punch Out! An iconic series from Nintendo's heyday and one of its big arcade hits, the series isn't huge but it has two classic titles on the NES and SNES and a terrific Wii revival. And of course, a character in Smash in the form of Little Mac, the game's biggest underdog in a variety of ways. I suppose it's pretty fitting.

Punch Out content in Smash 4 was passable, I didn't have many complaints considering it was the series' Smash debut. Boxing Ring is a great stage. We got remixes of the two most iconic tracks in the series, plus a few general tracks from Punch Out Wii. 5 songs does seem a bit measly and I was disappointed at a few omissions I'll get to in a bit, but I was forgiving recognizing the series doesn't have that much music to choose from and that it was Mac's first Smash. Boxing Ring also featured Tomorrow's Passion from Captain Rainbow, a welcome surprise. Nothing from Super Punch Out, strange but I suppose out of the three console titles that was the one I expected content from the least anyway.

Little Mac got the executive treatment for alternate costumes. Not only did he have his iconic hoodie, but he had 8 extra costumes themed around his Wireframe alt, based on the original arcade game. While I actually believe that many wireframe alts was a bit much, it was nice to see Mac get some extra loving in that area. No Punch Out AT, which was a crying shame but... again, this is the first game with Mac in it, surely we can get something next time around. Decent amount of trophies, nothing spectacular but it was nice to have them. Sure, no trophy of the incomparable Super Macho Man, a crime that would normally be unforgivable, but I'm sure it was simply a mistake.

--------

Boy, I can't wait to see the new content my favorite Nintendo series gets in Ultimate! I'm so happy that Little Mac is in the game, and after becoming a part of the Smash family in Smash 4... now it's time to expand! Maybe a Super Punch Out remix? Obviously an Assist Trophy, I mean, there are so many great characters in Punch Out I wouldn't even be surprised if there were two of them! Hell, King Hippo would be a pretty fun boss huh? Wishful thinking but hey, a man can dream. I just want something new.

...

Well none of that happened, clearly. Let's talk about it!

Positives first. Well, positive singular, there's only one new thing that Punch Out got this time around and that's spirits. We finally got Super Macho Man represented, thank god. I'll be real, I haven't really played through WOL so I haven't experienced all of these, but from what I've seen they had some good clever fun with these as usual. The enemy boxers lend some really obvious potential through spirit battles so I'm at least glad that we got a reasonable number of those.

Now onto the other stuff. Clearly I wasn't expecting a new Punch Out character, let's get that out of the way. We don't really need one either, Mac represents the series just fine. I would like another but it's clearly just a pipe dream. We don't really need another stage either - Boxing Ring is like the only notable location in Punch Out anyway, unless you want to count the city skyline.

But let's just acknowledge the elephant in the room; Punch Out got nothing new outside of spirits, which obviously every series got. No new music and no Assist Trophy. Even though I acknowledge Punch Out is likely in the lower end of priorities, and rightfully so, to get absolutely nothing stings a little bit. You look around and see other series getting some love and some cute little new homages within their stages or their Final Smashes, brand new Assist Trophies and remixes, I don't know. You get the idea, with a new Smash comes more celebration of these series we've all come to love. For Punch Out to get none of that said to me that they just didn't care, that it was an expendable series and it was nothing more than a passing thought in Ultimate. For a lot of people this probably doesn't stick out as a major travesty, but Punch Out is perhaps my favorite Nintendo series out there. It's a bummer.

So yeah, I know Punch Out isn't a major Nintendo series, it hasn't had a game in some time but... come on dude. The most frustrating part is just how obvious these additions would have been.

MUSIC

https://youtu.be/i5KGhHQ1HQ8 - Super Punch Out - Minor Circuit

If any song is missing from the Punch Out lineup it's this one. We have representation from first game and from Wii, but nothing from its fantastic SNES iteration which... is admittedly the dark horse of the series with the mysterious blonde Mac. Still it would have been nice to round out the series representation with the minor circuit theme from all three games right? But I mean, if a remix was a bit of a tall order we still have options.

https://youtu.be/YAAP307Iek4 - Glass Joe
https://youtu.be/kquJfkstglA - Don Flamenco
https://youtu.be/jJFio4jcMRw - Super Macho Man

Okay yes, these are all arrangements of the normal Minor Circuit theme, which is already in the game. BUT... few games have been able to use the same song over and over again so masterfully as Punch Out Wii. Every boxer-specific arrangement brings a very distinct and fun vibe where none of them feel remotely the same. Clearly Smash Bros has no problem over-representing a single song, DK fans have been complaining about Jungle Swing for years. I assure you us Punch Out fans wouldn't mind at all.

To add insult to injury, you can't even play Tomorrow's Passion on Boxing Ring anymore. Dumb.

ASSIST TROPHY

This is perhaps the greatest travesty and the one that I'm admittedly the most frustrated about... where like, even if we just got one new Punch Out AT and that was it, I'd be satisfied that we at least got something out of Ultimate. But nobody out of Punch Out's library of charismatic and lovable boxers was chosen to be an AT... it's a huge disservice to how amazing the cast of this series is. Here are some of the options we could have had.

Glass Joe - This one is obvious. Think Starfy. Joe comes out and barely helps at all, but he's giving it his best. His punches are weak and he can easily be tossed around and KO'ed by your opponent. He's durable though, as much as you hit him he keeps on swinging, god bless him.

King Hippo - Perhaps Mac's greatest foil! I'd argue that King Hippo is Punch Out's most iconic enemy boxer. He doesn't move around much, but don't get in the way of his punches. Maybe he even works as a sort of wall, hide behind him and your opponents bounce right off of his belly. But if they get a good punch to his jaw, his pants come down and he flees.

Super Macho Man - This man's sheer personality is tough to beat. Macho Man emerges and a paparazzi swarms him, flashing cameras and stunning anyone in its range. He poses and then releases the bogus, spinning around and delivering several massive punches.

Bald Bull - Another very iconic enemy boxer, the Bull Rush is perhaps the most notorious attack in the entire series. So naturally that's what he would do; Bull charges up and dashes toward your opponent. If you let your guard down, it's practically an automatic KO for you.

Great Tiger - Okay first of all, **** this guy. He's probably my biggest rival on a personal level because as a kid his special attack was the hardest one to wrap my head around. Tiger can teleport around the stage, float and swiftly punch your foes. I think this one is the most versatile.

... and so much more! I didn't even mention Aran Ryan's glove on a rope, or Bear Hugger, or the penultimate Mr. Sandman. And I would have been happy with ANY of these amazing characters getting acknowledged as an Assist Trophy. The fact that none of them got that love from the dev team just makes me sad.

And like, this kind of thing is exactly why I feel like Punch Out has gotten the short end of the stick. It's straight up treated like Duck Hunt (scratch that, at least Duck Hunt got a new song) or Ice Climber, when in reality it's on the same level as Mother or Kid Icarus. It has a hilarious cast of characters who would have made great ATs (or hell, stage cameos on Boxing Ring. Just look at what they did for the DLC stages!). I can probably chalk this up to Punch Out not being very popular in Japan, but that doesn't really matter when it's already part of the Smash family right? Now's the time to show them what they've been missing out on!!!

Bottom line, Punch Out is a part of the Smash family, and I wish it was treated like one. It's too often cast aside and dismissed as a minor series when it has a lot more to offer than it has been able to. THANK YOU if you read this whole thing. I hope some people care as much about this series as I do.

...and don't even get me started on Rhythm Heaven! (laugh track ensues)

 

[Ben Holt]

From most to least underrepresented:

1. Donkey Kong
For Nintendo's fourth biggest franchise (Mario spin-offs counting as one Mario franchise), three characters is CRIMINALLY underrepresentative. Its item and stage representation is also pretty barren.
So add back the old DK stages, add a snow-themed Tropical Freeze stage. Add a Rambi Assist Trophy that functions like Gogoat. And add Dixie Kong, Cranky Kong, and Funky Kong as playable characters.

2. Sonic the Hedgehog
Despite not being a Nintendo franchise, c'mon; it's Sonic the Mother****in' Hedgehog. You can't go into a ****ing Dollar Store without seeing the speedy blue mascot. Castlevania got an item in Death's Scythe AND a Boss Fight in Dracula. Give us the Death Egg Robot. Better yet, give us a playable Eggman that transforms into the Death Egg Robot in Classic Mode like Bowser into Giga Bowser and Ganondorf into Beast Ganon. Sonic has plenty of iconic stages, most notably Chemical Plant Zone, but Mushroom Hill, City Escape, Planet Wisp, Eggmanland, and Emerald Coast are also super viable picks. Item-wise, there are plenty of Sonic items worth making into Smash. Electric Shield could draw in items and give an extra midair jump. A spring could also be placed down as a trap like the Bumper. A casino slot machine could work like a Party Ball where it spins the slots to determine which items appear. Speed Shoes could work like a turbocharged Bunny Hood with faster speed but without the higher jump. Pretty much any Wisp is also an obvious choice. Also make Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Eggman playable AT least. Amy, Silver, Blaze, and Metal Sonic are also very viable secondary characters.

3. The Legend of Zelda
Despite being like 10 times bigger of a franchise of Fire Emblem, we haven't seen a Zelda newcomer since Brawl. There are plenty of stages and items, but we have three Links, Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. Here is just a quick list of iconic Zelda characters to make playable: Impa, Tingle, Midna + Wolf Link, Skull Kid, Tetra, Toon Zelda, Toon Ganon, Revali, Ghirahim, Demise (Ganondorf echo).

3. Other Third Parties in general.
C'mon. Just one fighter and one stage for each third party franchise? Give us Proto Man as an easy Mega Man echo. Same with Ms. Pac-Man, Zack Fair, and Jeanne for thrir respective franchises. Make Monster Hunter playable instead of just teasing us with a Rathalos boss battle. Give us items from the franchises. Mega Man's E-tank may just be another generic healing item, but it's iconic!

4. Super Mario
Yes, I know this is controversial, but Mario IS the king if video games himself, and there are so many iconic Mario characters that simply deserve to be playable. Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario, Geno, and King Boo are the obvious ones but we could still have Toadette (Toad echo), Wart, Birdo, Paper Luigi (Paper Mario echo), Gooigi (Luigi echo), Pauline, Dry Bowser (Bowser echo), Dry Bones, and Lubba!
Stage-wise, we need a proper Bowser's Castle. And honestly, Mushroomy Kingdom looks so... brown and is so Brawl, and it needs to actually look like an HD World 1-1. Items are fine for Mario as it is.

5. Crash Bandicoot
We literally have NO Crash Bandicoot content in Smash. How could the team overlook this. Clearly, this will be fixed in a future update.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Both BWD and Beedle are recurring NPCs (BWD was only made P4 out of convenience in RTDL, and literally any other helper or dream friend can be P4 in SA). So I don't really see a difference between the two.

HAL treats BWD as the fourth member of Team Kirby, that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[Lenidem]

I'm very grateful that someone brought this up as I came into this thread ready to say the exact same thing. But I am going to talk about it anyway.

I won't even bother getting too deep into how Mac is treated, but I hate how polarizing of a playstyle he has. Like, we get it, he's a normal dude and he can't fight in the air. Dudley can fight in the air just fine, what's his excuse? Hate how his weakness is so glaringly obvious and just makes fights as or against him lame when in reality Punch Out battles are SO much fun. I hope they'll reconsider this if Mac is lucky enough to be a mainstay. Considering he was my most wanted character by far, I'm really disappointed I can't main him reliably because he's a very special and personal character to me regardless. I've stockholmed myself to learning him and getting him into Elite anyway. I love my boy.

WALL OF TEXT ALERT. I LOVE THIS SERIES.

So let's put it into perspective... Punch Out! An iconic series from Nintendo's heyday and one of its big arcade hits, the series isn't huge but it has two classic titles on the NES and SNES and a terrific Wii revival. And of course, a character in Smash in the form of Little Mac, the game's biggest underdog in a variety of ways. I suppose it's pretty fitting.

Punch Out content in Smash 4 was passable, I didn't have many complaints considering it was the series' Smash debut. Boxing Ring is a great stage. We got remixes of the two most iconic tracks in the series, plus a few general tracks from Punch Out Wii. 5 songs does seem a bit measly and I was disappointed at a few omissions I'll get to in a bit, but I was forgiving recognizing the series doesn't have that much music to choose from and that it was Mac's first Smash. Boxing Ring also featured Tomorrow's Passion from Captain Rainbow, a welcome surprise. Nothing from Super Punch Out, strange but I suppose out of the three console titles that was the one I expected content from the least anyway.

Little Mac got the executive treatment for alternate costumes. Not only did he have his iconic hoodie, but he had 8 extra costumes themed around his Wireframe alt, based on the original arcade game. While I actually believe that many wireframe alts was a bit much, it was nice to see Mac get some extra loving in that area. No Punch Out AT, which was a crying shame but... again, this is the first game with Mac in it, surely we can get something next time around. Decent amount of trophies, nothing spectacular but it was nice to have them. Sure, no trophy of the incomparable Super Macho Man, a crime that would normally be unforgivable, but I'm sure it was simply a mistake.

--------

Boy, I can't wait to see the new content my favorite Nintendo series gets in Ultimate! I'm so happy that Little Mac is in the game, and after becoming a part of the Smash family in Smash 4... now it's time to expand! Maybe a Super Punch Out remix? Obviously an Assist Trophy, I mean, there are so many great characters in Punch Out I wouldn't even be surprised if there were two of them! Hell, King Hippo would be a pretty fun boss huh? Wishful thinking but hey, a man can dream. I just want something new.

...

Well none of that happened, clearly. Let's talk about it!

Positives first. Well, positive singular, there's only one new thing that Punch Out got this time around and that's spirits. We finally got Super Macho Man represented, thank god. I'll be real, I haven't really played through WOL so I haven't experienced all of these, but from what I've seen they had some good clever fun with these as usual. The enemy boxers lend some really obvious potential through spirit battles so I'm at least glad that we got a reasonable number of those.

Now onto the other stuff. Clearly I wasn't expecting a new Punch Out character, let's get that out of the way. We don't really need one either, Mac represents the series just fine. I would like another but it's clearly just a pipe dream. We don't really need another stage either - Boxing Ring is like the only notable location in Punch Out anyway, unless you want to count the city skyline.

But let's just acknowledge the elephant in the room; Punch Out got nothing new outside of spirits, which obviously every series got. No new music and no Assist Trophy. Even though I acknowledge Punch Out is likely in the lower end of priorities, and rightfully so, to get absolutely nothing stings a little bit. You look around and see other series getting some love and some cute little new homages within their stages or their Final Smashes, brand new Assist Trophies and remixes, I don't know. You get the idea, with a new Smash comes more celebration of these series we've all come to love. For Punch Out to get none of that said to me that they just didn't care, that it was an expendable series and it was nothing more than a passing thought in Ultimate. For a lot of people this probably doesn't stick out as a major travesty, but Punch Out is perhaps my favorite Nintendo series out there. It's a bummer.

So yeah, I know Punch Out isn't a major Nintendo series, it hasn't had a game in some time but... come on dude. The most frustrating part is just how obvious these additions would have been.

MUSIC

https://youtu.be/i5KGhHQ1HQ8 - Super Punch Out - Minor Circuit

If any song is missing from the Punch Out lineup it's this one. We have representation from first game and from Wii, but nothing from its fantastic SNES iteration which... is admittedly the dark horse of the series with the mysterious blonde Mac. Still it would have been nice to round out the series representation with the minor circuit theme from all three games right? But I mean, if a remix was a bit of a tall order we still have options.

https://youtu.be/YAAP307Iek4 - Glass Joe
https://youtu.be/kquJfkstglA - Don Flamenco
https://youtu.be/jJFio4jcMRw - Super Macho Man

Okay yes, these are all arrangements of the normal Minor Circuit theme, which is already in the game. BUT... few games have been able to use the same song over and over again so masterfully as Punch Out Wii. Every boxer-specific arrangement brings a very distinct and fun vibe where none of them feel remotely the same. Clearly Smash Bros has no problem over-representing a single song, DK fans have been complaining about Jungle Swing for years. I assure you us Punch Out fans wouldn't mind at all.

To add insult to injury, you can't even play Tomorrow's Passion on Boxing Ring anymore. Dumb.

ASSIST TROPHY

This is perhaps the greatest travesty and the one that I'm admittedly the most frustrated about... where like, even if we just got one new Punch Out AT and that was it, I'd be satisfied that we at least got something out of Ultimate. But nobody out of Punch Out's library of charismatic and lovable boxers was chosen to be an AT... it's a huge disservice to how amazing the cast of this series is. Here are some of the options we could have had.

Glass Joe - This one is obvious. Think Starfy. Joe comes out and barely helps at all, but he's giving it his best. His punches are weak and he can easily be tossed around and KO'ed by your opponent. He's durable though, as much as you hit him he keeps on swinging, god bless him.

King Hippo - Perhaps Mac's greatest foil! I'd argue that King Hippo is Punch Out's most iconic enemy boxer. He doesn't move around much, but don't get in the way of his punches. Maybe he even works as a sort of wall, hide behind him and your opponents bounce right off of his belly. But if they get a good punch to his jaw, his pants come down and he flees.

Super Macho Man - This man's sheer personality is tough to beat. Macho Man emerges and a paparazzi swarms him, flashing cameras and stunning anyone in its range. He poses and then releases the bogus, spinning around and delivering several massive punches.

Bald Bull - Another very iconic enemy boxer, the Bull Rush is perhaps the most notorious attack in the entire series. So naturally that's what he would do; Bull charges up and dashes toward your opponent. If you let your guard down, it's practically an automatic KO for you.

Great Tiger - Okay first of all, **** this guy. He's probably my biggest rival on a personal level because as a kid his special attack was the hardest one to wrap my head around. Tiger can teleport around the stage, float and swiftly punch your foes. I think this one is the most versatile.

... and so much more! I didn't even mention Aran Ryan's glove on a rope, or Bear Hugger, or the penultimate Mr. Sandman. And I would have been happy with ANY of these amazing characters getting acknowledged as an Assist Trophy. The fact that none of them got that love from the dev team just makes me sad.

And like, this kind of thing is exactly why I feel like Punch Out has gotten the short end of the stick. It's straight up treated like Duck Hunt (scratch that, at least Duck Hunt got a new song) or Ice Climber, when in reality it's on the same level as Mother or Kid Icarus. It has a hilarious cast of characters who would have made great ATs (or hell, stage cameos on Boxing Ring. Just look at what they did for the DLC stages!). I can probably chalk this up to Punch Out not being very popular in Japan, but that doesn't really matter when it's already part of the Smash family right? Now's the time to show them what they've been missing out on!!!

Bottom line, Punch Out is a part of the Smash family, and I wish it was treated like one. It's too often cast aside and dismissed as a minor series when it has a lot more to offer than it has been able to. THANK YOU if you read this whole thing. I hope some people care as much about this series as I do.

...and don't even get me started on Rhythm Heaven! (laugh track ensues)

Never played Punch Out, but I read all this. Interesting, thanks!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You are correct here. This is what I mean when people need to focus on quality of representation instead of quantity.

Nobody is focusing on one and not the other. People want both, you're just assuming people only want one.

The problem is that I see everyone prioritizing quantity as the only deciding factor of representation. There's actually nothing wrong with "more", but quantity has to serve quality

That's because Kirby is a big series with a lot of targets to hit, and the developers have only hit a few of them, with exactly one bulls-eye: Marx. Everything else is either less than it could be or ignored altogether. That's why Kirby fans are frustrated.

People are treating quantity as if it's the only quality. People are focusing on "underrepresentation" (low quantity) rather than "poor representation" (low quality).

You're wrong. Why do you assume this? Of course people want good quality in their content. The problem is you can only fit so much content in with the little leg room Kirby has been given, and there is a practically endless reserve of Kirby content that arguably belongs in Smash because of how easy it would be to integrate it in.

I'm just not convinced that there is anything modern Kirby does significantly differently from classic Kirby, and the only two viable recurring characters, Bandana Dee and Galacta Knight, aren't terribly exciting or interesting.

That's a matter of preference then. You're the vocal minority here, most people, especially Kirby fans, agree that both said characters would make great additions to Smash.

Just because you don't like the characters people are asking for doesn't mean you have the right to tell them what they should and should not want. You're acting like a control freak and frankly it's quite rude.

 

[whitesnake]

Never played Punch Out, but I read all this. Interesting, thanks!

highly recommend playing punch out all of the entries in the series are excellent

 

[Quillion]

1. Donkey Kong
For Nintendo's fourth biggest franchise (Mario spin-offs counting as one Mario franchise), three characters is CRIMINALLY underrepresentative. Its item and stage representation is also pretty barren.
So add back the old DK stages, add a snow-themed Tropical Freeze stage. Add a Rambi Assist Trophy that functions like Gogoat. And add Dixie Kong, Cranky Kong, and Funky Kong as playable characters.

All of those characters at once is quite overboard, but I do want Dixie as a semi-echo. I say that since if you try to make her as faithful to her series as possible, she would likely be a semi-echo anyway.

2. Sonic the Hedgehog
Despite not being a Nintendo franchise, c'mon; it's Sonic the Mother****in' Hedgehog. You can't go into a ****ing Dollar Store without seeing the speedy blue mascot. Castlevania got an item in Death's Scythe AND a Boss Fight in Dracula. Give us the Death Egg Robot. Better yet, give us a playable Eggman that transforms into the Death Egg Robot in Classic Mode like Bowser into Giga Bowser and Ganondorf into Beast Ganon. Sonic has plenty of iconic stages, most notably Chemical Plant Zone, but Mushroom Hill, City Escape, Planet Wisp, Eggmanland, and Emerald Coast are also super viable picks. Item-wise, there are plenty of Sonic items worth making into Smash. Electric Shield could draw in items and give an extra midair jump. A spring could also be placed down as a trap like the Bumper. A casino slot machine could work like a Party Ball where it spins the slots to determine which items appear. Speed Shoes could work like a turbocharged Bunny Hood with faster speed but without the higher jump. Pretty much any Wisp is also an obvious choice. Also make Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, and Eggman playable AT least. Amy, Silver, Blaze, and Metal Sonic are also very viable secondary characters.

Again with this "Sonic needs special treatment" thing. Can there be more, sure. But I don't see why Sonic needs to be on top of all the third parties for some reason.

3. The Legend of Zelda
Despite being like 10 times bigger of a franchise of Fire Emblem, we haven't seen a Zelda newcomer since Brawl. There are plenty of stages and items, but we have three Links, Zelda, Sheik, and Ganondorf. Here is just a quick list of iconic Zelda characters to make playable: Impa, Tingle, Midna + Wolf Link, Skull Kid, Tetra, Toon Zelda, Toon Ganon, Revali, Ghirahim, Demise (Ganondorf echo).

Almost all of those characters are one shots, which is something of an insurmountable barrier to getting a newcomer.

3. Other Third Parties in general.
C'mon. Just one fighter and one stage for each third party franchise? Give us Proto Man as an easy Mega Man echo. Same with Ms. Pac-Man, Zack Fair, and Jeanne for thrir respective franchises. Make Monster Hunter playable instead of just teasing us with a Rathalos boss battle. Give us items from the franchises. Mega Man's E-tank may just be another generic healing item, but it's iconic!

Echoes for the remaining third party franchises would be great. Except Final Fantasy; we need an entirely new character that represents the 1-6 era of the series.

4. Super Mario
Yes, I know this is controversial, but Mario IS the king if video games himself, and there are so many iconic Mario characters that simply deserve to be playable. Toad, Waluigi, Paper Mario, Geno, and King Boo are the obvious ones but we could still have Toadette (Toad echo), Wart, Birdo, Paper Luigi (Paper Mario echo), Gooigi (Luigi echo), Pauline, Dry Bowser (Bowser echo), Dry Bones, and Lubba!
Stage-wise, we need a proper Bowser's Castle. And honestly, Mushroomy Kingdom looks so... brown and is so Brawl, and it needs to actually look like an HD World 1-1. Items are fine for Mario as it is.

I'd prefer to keep spinoff characters out of the playable roster. At least Piranha Plant is a main series character.

5. Crash Bandicoot
We literally have NO Crash Bandicoot content in Smash. How could the team overlook this. Clearly, this will be fixed in a future update.

We'll see about this. Until then, I'm not commenting on it.

 

[whitesnake]

Zelda does not need a new character... when they wanted new characters for more representation they just added more versions of link & zelda

Yes the series is super popular... but the series is about link, Gannon and Zelda. Pretty much all of the other popular characters are one-off

 

[Quillion]

Zelda does not need a new character... when they wanted new characters for more representation they just added more versions of link & zelda

Yes the series is super popular... but the series is about link, Gannon and Zelda. Pretty much all of the other popular characters are one-off

This. And before people bring up Fire Emblem, it and Xenoblade are franchises that rotate out their main casts.

Zelda does not do the same. It's more like Mario and Kirby in that it has a central cast with a rotating secondary cast.

 

[Guynamednelson]

This. And before people bring up Fire Emblem, it and Xenoblade are franchises that rotate out their main casts.

Zelda does not do the same. It's more like Mario and Kirby in that it has a central cast with a rotating secondary cast.

Pokemon also has a rotating and central cast, and I don't see you wanting to reduce its selection to .

 

[Quillion]

Pokemon also has a rotating and central cast, and I don't see you wanting to reduce its selection to .

Frankly, I want both Pokémon and Fire Emblem to stop focusing on all of the "newest kids on the block" at this point and start looking at past characters. It may have been fine to continuously have the new kids in the past, but it's not cutting it nowadays. Pokémon has some real legends like Blaziken, Gardevoir, and Zoroark, and Fire Emblem does too like Lyn, Hector, and Ephraim.

Xenoblade still has room for the new kids at least, but when it gets to be a certain age, it needs to look at the past too.

 

[Perkilator]

From most to least underrepresented:
5. Crash Bandicoot
We literally have NO Crash Bandicoot content in Smash. How could the team overlook this. Clearly, this will be fixed in a future update.

As much as I wish we had that right now, I think that last one’s pretty demanding, considering the thread was asking about PLAYABLE (as in, ones with playable reps) franchises that are underrepresented.

 

[Arthur97]

Zelda does not need a new character... when they wanted new characters for more representation they just added more versions of link & zelda

Yes the series is super popular... but the series is about link, Gannon and Zelda. Pretty much all of the other popular characters are one-off

Impa isn't.

 

[Quillion]

Impa isn't.

There are still major problems with Impa though. Not only does she not have any material to really work with, but you can't really encompass her two major forms, Young Impa and Old Impa, into one character.

And before you say "Captain Falcon" or "Ganondorf", that was acceptable in the 64/Melee days. Making something up for a non-main character these days will look like shoehorning.

And before you say "Hyrule Warriors", they're not going to take inspiration from a spinoff either.

 

[Ben Holt]

As much as I wish we had that right now, I think that last one’s pretty demanding, considering the thread was asking about PLAYABLE (as in, ones with playable reps) franchises that are underrepresented.

I think you missed the joke.

 

[Firox]

I think you missed the joke.

They couldn't have missed it. Their reflexes are too fast. They would catch it.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Pokemon also has a rotating and central cast, and I don't see you wanting to reduce its selection to .

Pokemon is popular enough that it gets special treatment like Mario does, from these franchises, there's a big gap to everything else.

 

[Lenidem]

There is always a justification. ''Yeah but this serie is dead'' ''yeah but this serie popular'' ''yeah but this one has a rotating cast'' ''yeah but this one is relevant''...

 

[Mushroomguy12]

There are still major problems with Impa though. Not only does she not have any material to really work with, but you can't really encompass her two major forms, Young Impa and Old Impa, into one character.

You don’t have to encompass two forms into one, it’s clear they can easily just go with the young form just like how they chose human Ganondorf over Blue Pig Ganon. Especially with Ultimate showing that it's perfectly fine to have your incarnations of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf not only taking from separate games, but also being based mainly on single incarnations.

And before you say "Captain Falcon" or "Ganondorf", that was acceptable in the 64/Melee days. Making something up for a non-main character these days will look like shoehorning.

They were able to make up a moveset for Piranha Plant, which is about as far away from a main character as you can get. And that was in Ultimate, not 64/Melee.

And before you say "Hyrule Warriors", they're not going to take inspiration from a spinoff either.

They probably wouldn't take anything from Hyrule Warriors due to the dual ownership with Koei Tecmo (nor do they need to, since Impa has plenty of material to work with on her own), but they do reference spin offs like Mario Kart and Mario Soccer all the time and included a Fire Emblem mobile app theme in the game, so no. Also Waluigi being in the game at all as an Assist Trophy is referencing a spin off (along with all the Paper Mario trophies/spirits).

 

[crazybenjamin]

but they do reference spin offs like Mario Kart and Mario Soccer all the time and included a Fire Emblem mobile app theme in the game, so no. Also Waluigi being in the game at all as an Assist Trophy is referencing a spin off (along with all the Paper Mario trophies/spirits).

Pretty sure when Quillion referred to taking inspiration from a spinoff, that statement was referring to the playable fighters and their movesets. So in that regard, one or two attacks would probably be the only way that Impa would reference HW.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Pretty sure when Quillion referred to taking inspiration from a spinoff, that statement was referring to the playable fighters and their movesets. So in that regard, one or two attacks would probably be the only way that Impa would reference HW.

And I already mentioned how Impa has plenty to work with even disregarding HW.

 

[Arthur97]

Actually, you wouldn't think they'd take Warriors stuff, and they probably won't, but it seems odd to me that nothing from either Warriors spinoff got in while that Mirage Sessions game did get two spirits.

 

[Quillion]

You don’t have to encompass two forms into one, it’s clear they can easily just go with the young form just like how they chose human Ganondorf over Blue Pig Ganon. Especially with Ultimate showing that it's perfectly fine to have your incarnations of Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf not only taking from separate games, but also being based mainly on single incarnations.

But Ganondorf still has the dark magic and weapon usage that pig Ganon does as well. And Link's moveset is at least still similar to the previous Links so as to not alienate anyone (at least in theory, as I am alienated by the new design). It's not really possible to make something for Impa without making something up.

They were able to make up a moveset for Piranha Plant, which is about as far away from a main character as you can get. And that was in Ultimate, not 64/Melee.

That's not really "making it up" when they composited several Piranha Plant subspecies to make the moveset.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

It's not really possible to make something for Impa without making something up.

It is certainly possible, all it takes is a little vision/creativity and a basic knowledge of the character in the Zelda series. Please stop calling things impossible when they've managed to create movesets for Duck Hunt, Wii Fit Trainer, and Villager.


https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/dbggw7

That's not really "making it up" when they composited several Piranha Plant subspecies to make the moveset.

OK, and they can easily composite moves from both Ocarina of Time and Skyward Sword to create Impa's moveset.

 

[Arthur97]

Seriously, I find some people seem to lack imagination (or maybe they use it as a smoke screen if they don't want them). Like the person I saw that insisted Rex would have just been Mii Swordfighter with Joker's (base) up special. There's also nothing wrong with a little pulling out of thin air. I mean, I don't really recall King K. Rool rearing back and smacking anyone with his fist (back air) or ZSS having rocket boots. And R.O.B. most certainly didn't have rocket boosters. Sometimes you got to get a little creative to get the full moveset. Not every move has to be taken directly from the games.

As for Impa, I think one neat thing for her might be if her up special can stun opponents but not hurt them on start up as a reference to it being the Deku Nut animation in Ocarina of Time when she disappears. I didn't read it, so I don't know if it's in the proposed moveset.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Xenoblade - Only has Shulk, one stage, a Mii costume, and a over a dozen tracks. Fire Emblem has 8 reps so Xenoblade deserves a 2nd rep in this game.

Donkey Kong - Has DK, Diddy, K. Rool, a Klaptrap Assist Trophy, and 3 stages. We need Dixie Kong, more Assist Trophies, and a couple of more stages.

Zelda - Zelda is really already well represented in the stage and Assist Trophy department, but needs better representation in the character department. Half of the Zelda characters are Link clones and Ganondorf is a Captain Falcon semi-clone. We need a completely revamped Ganondorf with a new original moveset and Zelda newcomers that ain't Trifore welders.

Kirby - Sakurai Kirby content is already well represented in Smash with all the stages, music, Marx boss fight all being from his games. But we need Kirby content from the post Sakurai era and we need Bandana Dee.

 

[Mamboo07]

Xenoblade - Only has Shulk, one stage, a Mii costume, and a over a dozen tracks. Fire Emblem has 8 reps so Xenoblade deserves a 2nd rep in this game.

Donkey Kong - Has DK, Diddy, K. Rool, a Klaptrap Assist Trophy, and 3 stages. We need Dixie Kong, more Assist Trophies, and a couple of more stages.

Zelda - Zelda is really already well represented in the stage and Assist Trophy department, but needs better representation in the character department. Half of the Zelda characters are Link clones and Ganondorf is a Captain Falcon semi-clone. We need a completely revamped Ganondorf with a new original moveset and Zelda newcomers that ain't Trifore welders.

Kirby - Sakurai Kirby content is already well represented in Smash with all the stages, music, Marx boss fight all being from his games. But we need Kirby content from the post Sakurai era and we need Bandana Dee.

For Zelda, I would give both Young and Toon Link new revamped movesets.
And yes, I agree with Kirby needing modern representation.

 

[Lenidem]

And they referenced a tech demo in Ultimate Ganondorf's moveset, so except for right issues I don't see why they wouldn't reference a spin-off - like they already did with Peach and Daisy (who is a playable fighter mainly appearing in the spin-off, by the way - ''yeah but you see a sprite of her for five seconds in that twenty years old game who might be considered part of the main serie'').

 

[Quillion]

Can I just say that, in terms of pure quality, Fire Emblem isn't represented well? Especially when four characters are based on one template, and they insist on having the new flavor-of-the-month character as opposed to established popular characters for the unique fighters. Its quantity-to-quality ratio is too far on the quantity side.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

In my humble opinion of all franchises with fighters...

: Fine, but more is always welcomed.

: Dixie Kong & maybe a non-jungle stage, then perfect.

: A character who isn't the main trio & maybe more de-cloned Ganon, but overall fine.

: Maybe de-clone Dark Samus, but overall fine.

: A new character would be nice, but unlikely, so fine enough.

: Bandana Dee & maybe more modern content, then perfect.

: Maybe Krystal, but mostly fine.

: Fine, but will likely get more content.

: Best case Porky & maybe Ninten echo, but mostly fine enough.

: Fine.

: A new character would be nice, but fine enough if not.

: A new character and more overall Wario Land content.

: More music and maybe a new character.

: More content from the Alpha, 3, 4, and 5 games.

: Maybe more music, but overall fine.



Though honestly, I'm happy with what we have.

 

[AstralSoul64]

Of franchises already represented, definitely Yoshi, F-Zero, EarthBound/Mother, and Final Fantasy.

I see some people say Game & Watch but there isn't exactly many characters to implement into the game. Same goes for R.O.B. who is pretty much his own series.

More Punch-Out characters would be cool, like maybe King Hippo as another heavy, or Glass Joe just for laughs. But Little Mac represents the series well and I don't think we need more.

Yoshi only has Yoshi and there are a few good choices like Kamek and Poochy that would be welcome additions.

F-Zero only has Capt Falcon and Black Shadow would be a welcome addition (or any other F-Zero character but I would choose him first)

Mother has Lucas and Ness but a third like Ninten or someone more unique like Pokey/Porky would be great to see, though I say this with bias as Mother is my favorite series by far. Still, I think having another rep to either rep the one game in the trilogy that's not yet repped or the villain who would play completely differently than the two existing Mother reps.

Final Fantsay I know is a 3rd aprty franchise but the lack of care put into Cloud's addition is blatantly obvious for some reason. One character with many other great choices to add in, no spirits (seriously, none???), only 2 music tracks in his stage. Why even add him in the first place? Put in Cecil or Terra or Warrior of Light or Squall or Zidane or Vivi, or Tidus, or Sephiroth, you have so many options. Use them. Personally I'd love to see Vivi in the game because not only is FF9 my favorite in the franchise, Vivi is a beloved character and represents the series incredibly well just based on looks alone.

Other franchises I'd love to see repped...

Crash Bandicoot - Super obvious pick. It would be a crime for them not to include Crash into this.

Spyro the Dragon - Less likely but still would be super welcome to see.

No More Heroes - Travis Touchdown feels like a shoe-in. With NMH3 coming out (this year?) and a pretty heavy focus on Nintendo consoles, on top of that Travis would have plenty of awesome moves to show off, it surprises me he wasn't part of the first DLC pack.

Conker - Never going to happen but I'd die and main him instantly.

Pilotwings - So they have a Pilotwings based stage and an icon for it, and there are characters in Pilotwings, at least Pilotwings 64, maybe Lark from that game, and while it's not likely of Pilotwings getting a fighter, they could potentially give them some pretty cool moves, most of them based on flight.

Paper Mario - Okay so I know we have so many Mario reps as it is but Paper Mario would make a great new fighter because he would be different from just regular Mario and Dr Mario. Plus the series has a stage, and it's an awesome series (for the most part)