What franchise is underapprociated/underrepresented in ultimate.

[Quillion]

Huh...I never really thought about it that way.

Still, I feel like Bowser's Castle is the one case where they can make an exception. After all, even casuals are familiar with the location, since it turns up in every Mario Kart.

Oh, I really hope they make that exception. It's one of the few times where its iconicness should override its lack of being emblematic.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

There is, I assure you, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that modern Kirby does uniquely from Sakurai Kirby. The newer abilities are just copies of earlier abilities, and the stages are just the same bright and colorful level tropes that Sakurai Kirby did.

This is what I meant by "uneducated people" in my first post.

For one thing, the level design of Modern Kirby has been executed completely differently than older games, and arguably in a much better way. Starting with Return to Dream Land, we received probably the best collect-a-thon you could hope to get from a 2D platformer. Each level had several optional rooms and even extensions into Another Dimension that allowed the player to explore the game from a new angle (optional mini-bosses with unique copy abilities that reward you with the Energy Spheres, just to name one). In Triple Deluxe, the levels were designed both to mirror the mystery of who the true antagonist is as well as showcase the descent into madness of who would eventually be the final boss. It was meant to tell a story. In Planet Robobot, the free-flow and traditionally fluid level design of the previous games was replaced with a structure that focused more on orderly progression that almost felt as if you were trekking through a factory (hence the title). Even the music was orchestrated in a way that resonated with the mechanical themes of the game. Star Allies threw all this out the window and replaced it with marginalized levels that were short and easy but felt sincere and had a lot of work done into them. The backgrounds and the music created a savory environment that hasn't been done before.

I'll repeat, this is just the level design. There's a whole extra world of effort that the developers put into their games that separates them form Sakurai's worls. Your just too ignorant with ideas of "quality overquantity" to notice it.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Now, a lot of people want Bowser's Castle; it's universally considered an icon of the series as it is the final boss location in nearly every Mario game. Maybe saying they weren't iconic was wrong on my part, they're actually just not emblematic of the series.

Now, this is what I would see as "Stereotyping." It downgrades the Series IP into it's most simple format that most ignorant people(or "Normies") would barely recognize.

The Halberd shouldn't be considered a mistake. It was, arguably the biggest highlight of the most praised Kirby title of the 90's. Getting rid of it robs Meta Knight of a home turf. Hell, maybe we should drop Meta Knight himself, since he's not "emblematic" of what the "Kirby's Dream Land" series is all about!

 

[Quillion]

Now, this is what I would see as "Stereotyping." I downgrades the Series IP into it's most simple format that most ignorant people(or "Normies") would barely recognize.

The Halberd shouldn't be considered a mistake. It was, arguably the biggest highlight of the most praised Kirby title of the 90's. Getting rid of it robs Meta Knight of a home turf. Hell, maybe we should drop Meta Knight himself, since he's not "emblematic" of what the "Kirby's Dream Land" series is all about!

Well to be fair, with Smash having to balance many, many franchises, it's kind of a big deal to focus on the most emblematic elements first and foremost. This isn't Hyrule Warriors we're talking about here.

Could you imagine if Punch-Out's ONLY stage was jogging outside of NYC with no boxing ring in sight?

 

[Perkilator]

Well to be fair, with Smash having to balance many, many franchises, it's kind of a big deal to focus on the most emblematic elements first and foremost. This isn't Hyrule Warriors we're talking about here.

Could you imagine if Punch-Out's ONLY stage was jogging outside of NYC with no boxing ring in sight?

Of course not, but…that would’ve made a great new stage! What with fighters fighting on moving bikes, but the momentum is fast enough that they can jog back onto the main fight if they fall off.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Well maybe it's the entire reason Sakurai Kirby games are focused on in Smash. Like it or not, modern Kirby isn't exactly winning any awards for being groundbreaking even for the Kirby franchise alone. They're way too focused on riding the coattails of what came before.

The only potential stages that would be viable from modern Kirby would be Cookie Country, Fine Fields, Patched Plains, and Green Gardens, and guess what, they're all clones of Green Greens.

The stages that Perkilator listed unfortunately run into what I like to call the "Bowser's Castle problem." Now, a lot of people want Bowser's Castle; it's universally considered an icon of the series as it is the final boss location in nearly every Mario game. Maybe saying they weren't iconic was wrong on my part, they're actually just not emblematic of the series.

Bowser's Castle has never gotten a stage (at least not a standalone iteration) in any Smash game because it's not emblematic of the series' bright and colorful nature. Donkey Kong has never gotten a non-jungle stage because as diverse as the stage settings are, they're just not emblematic of DK's home: the jungle. And unfortunately, when anyone suggests a stage for Kirby, it's always one of the darker ones, which again isn't emblematic of how bright and colorful the Kirby series is.

You may mention the Halberd as a dark Kirby stage, but as with Sheik and other Zelda one-shots, I think Sakurai rightfully saw the Halberd in Brawl as a mistake, which just discouraged less emblematic stages from ever being put in Smash again.

Where do you get the idea that a stage has to "emblematic" of a series to be in?
Your very "proof" of this isn't solid at all.
Mushroomy Kingdom isn't a colorful stage, and it's only bright because it's a desert.
Halberd is not at all bright or colorful either, and I don't think the GameBoy Dreamland fits this description either.

This rule is something that I've only ever heard you claim to be one, and it isn't even true.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Games that are flat out missing key Characters-
Balloon Fighter
Chibi Robo
Golden Sun
Panel de Pon
Excite Bike
Donkey Kong

And if I'm going to be honest as far as Video Game history goes-
Kingdom Hearts
Angry Birds
Minecraft
Frogger
Tetris

Or with just companies as a whole, based on recent happenings.
Ubisoft
Bethesda

 

[Quillion]

Where do you get the idea that a stage has to "emblematic" of a series to be in?
Your very "proof" of this isn't solid at all.
Mushroomy Kingdom isn't a colorful stage, and it's only bright because it's a desert.
Halberd is not at all bright or colorful either, and I don't think the GameBoy Dreamland fits this description either.

This rule is something that I've only ever heard you claim to be one, and it isn't even true.

Mushroomy Kingdom is still emblematic of Mario since it's a recreation of World 1-1 (and formerly 1-2), and Dream Land GB is a recreation of the entirety of Kirby's Dream Land.

And as I said, Sakurai seems to view the Halberd as a mistake considering how we've never gotten a stage like that for Kirby or even Mario since.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

Mushroomy Kingdom is still emblematic of Mario since it's a recreation of World 1-1 (and formerly 1-2), and Dream Land GB is a recreation of the entirety of Kirby's Dream Land.

And as I said, Sakurai seems to view the Halberd as a mistake considering how we've never gotten a stage like that for Kirby or even Mario since.

That's a big assumption you're making, with very little proof to back it up.

Edit: my wording was poor

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Fire Emblem.

 

[Quillion]

That's a big assumption you're making, with very little proof to back it up.

Edit: my wording was poor

You need to read between the lines here. Not every "iconic element" is going to be represented in Smash, and even less so if their atmosphere isn't emblematic enough.

Do you honestly think Sakurai is simply unaware of the amount of requests for Bowser's Castle? If he's aware for the demand for Ganondorf's sword and Wario's shoulder bash, he must be aware of the demand for Bowser's Castle, so there HAS to be a good reason as to why it has been constantly excluded from Smash.

Fire Emblem.

In terms of quality and not quantity, this but unironically.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

You need to read between the lines here. Not every "iconic element" is going to be represented in Smash, and even less so if their atmosphere isn't emblematic enough.

Do you honestly think Sakurai is simply unaware of the amount of requests for Bowser's Castle? If he's aware for the demand for Ganondorf's sword and Wario's shoulder bash, he must be aware of the demand for Bowser's Castle, so there HAS to be a good reason as to why it has been constantly excluded from Smash.



In terms of quality and not quantity, this but unironically.

And I don't think it's because it's not "emblematic" of Mario. There likely is a good reason he hasn't made a Bowser's castle stage, but I really don't think it's for the reasons you gave. Again, both Mushroomy Kingdom and Halberd disprove the idea that a stage has to be colorful and bright to be a stage in Smash.

Sure Mushroomy Kingdom recreates the first level in Super Mario Bros., but that's hardly emblematic of the series as a whole, and still doesn't fit the "bright and colorful nature" that you deem to be the quota for a Mario stage. Desert aesthetic isn't exactly what I associate with Mario as whole.

I really don't think you have enough proof to backup your claims, and I still think a Bowser's Castle stage is missing from Mario's otherwise great representation.

 

[Quillion]

And I don't think it's because it's not "emblematic" of Mario. There likely is a good reason he hasn't made a Bowser's castle stage, but I really don't think it's for the reasons you gave. Again, both Mushroomy Kingdom and Halberd disprove the idea that a stage has to be colorful and bright to be a stage in Smash.

Sure Mushroomy Kingdom recreates the first level in Super Mario Bros., but that's hardly emblematic of the series as a whole, and still doesn't fit the "bright and colorful nature" that you deem to be the quota for a Mario stage. Desert aesthetic isn't exactly what I associate with Mario as whole.

I really don't think you have enough proof to backup your claims, and I still think a Bowser's Castle stage is missing from Mario's otherwise great representation.

Fair enough that I don't have any proof. But with the extreme unlikelihood that Sakurai will explain why Bowser's Castle has been excluded from the stage roster despite tangible demand, all I have to go off of is patterns in representation.

It's like how people agree that Zelda one-shots aren't likely to be in the roster despite Sheik apparently proving otherwise, and people agree that Sakurai views Sheik as a mistake that he's only keeping on for sentimentality from her players.

 

[Mamboo07]

Fire Emblem.

Because it has 1 item and 3 assist trophies?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

It's like how people agree that Zelda one-shots aren't likely to be in the roster despite Sheik apparently proving otherwise, and people agree that Sakurai views Sheik as a mistake that he's only keeping on for sentimentality from her players.

This sounds like baseless conjecture. Sheik was added in Melee in part because of the character swapping mechanic that they wanted to introduce with Zelda, and they were only eventually separated due to the technical limitations that Smash 3DS brought to the table. In the end though, this actually worked for the benefit of both characters despite losing an interesting dynamic.

You are right about Sakurai wanting to keep characters because of his adversity of alienating players by cutting fighters, but what gives you the idea that Sakurai sees her as a "mistake"? And which people are agreeing on this view you just fabricated? I say fabricated because there is no instance to my knowledge of Sakurai expressing such a sentiment. It's one thing to look at patterns, it's another to just make up some bull****. Is this similar to how you claim the majority of people (read: two or three guys in an echo chamber) felt alienated by Ganondorf's changes?
If that was true, I doubt they would have bothered to change her moveset like they did in Smash 4 or even redesign her appearance to match the Sheikah armor from BotW. They would have dropped her in Smash 4 and they could have easily said "sorry, 3DS too weak" but they went out of their way instead.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Quillion You really need to chill right now. You made your point a long time ago. Anyone who scrolls through this last page will only see you grasping at straws, getting countered, and then finding some other straw to grasp. There are no rules to how the developers choose to add content and they don't have to follow any fan request if they don't want to. Whether or not something is "emblematic" or "iconic" is totally irrelevant to the developers, what they care most about is if players can have fun (a point that was reiterated during Terry's direct). If you disagree with a decision the developers made, that doesn't make any point of yours more valid, instead it only means they, with the insight of over 20 years of development, see something differently than you.

The point you've been most adamant on is that there is nothing Modern Kirby games have done differently than the old ones. The thing you fail (or refuse) to understand is that this is completely subjective. It can't be proven. It's not a fact. It's simply a matter of preference. If you don't like the direction that the latest Kirby games are going in, fine. But where is it written that you suddenly have permission to make your own opinion a fact as a result? The way I and many others see it, Kirby as a whole has made several huge improvements since the days of Sakurai and the development team has (almost) never faltered. What's more, Kirby's 30th anniversary is only in 2 years, so for all we know there could be something huge planned!

Your idea here is that if nothing has changed in the design of games, there's no reason for those games to be represented. I could go on for hours as to why modern Kirby is completely different than Sakurai's games, but I'm going to attack this from a different angle. Let's take Mario for example. The way I see it, between SMG2 (2010) and Odyssey (2017), nothing much changed in the fundamental design of Mario platformers--yet there are two stages from that era. Unlike you, I'm not going to make my opinion fact--there's a reason I said the way I see it. If Mario can get 2 stages alone from not changing much, why shouldn't Kirby? Are you going to try to prove that things did in fact change during that era? Or are you going to find some other loophole and grasp at another straw using fancy words like "emblematic' or whatever?

For some reason, you have this down to a science, as if everything the developers add has to be made with the most profound wisdom, and if something doesn't align exactly with what you wanted, somehow people are being "alienated"--No, that's literally the word you used to describe Link and Ganondorf's movesets because you didn't like them. You're trying to objectify this idea that Kirby representation is fine as it is and there is no worldly reason why anyone would ever want more or better Kirby content than as is. Every time someone brings up more content, you bring up "quality over quantity," ignoring the fact that maybe, just maybe, you don't see eye to eye with someone else and because of that you have different stances on things and there's no objective solution. But your record isn't on your side. You've been making things up a lot in this thread and pulling stuff straight out of your *** since the first page. My take? You're just a vocal minority and there's no reason to believe that your crap about "quality over quantity" holds any meaning in this context.

TL;DR: Just admit that you don't have an argument and please let this thread return to normal before it gets closed.

You also still have yet to adequately respond to my first post about what you said on the first page. I raised a lot of good points there and I don't feel like repeating myself, so as far as my actual problems with Kirby content in Smash go, just refer yourself to that post.

 

[Perkilator]

Quillion You really need to chill right now. You made your point a long time ago. Anyone who scrolls through this last page will only see you grasping at straws, getting countered, and then finding some other straw to grasp. There are no rules to how the developers choose to add content and they don't have to follow any fan request if they don't want to. Whether or not something is "emblematic" or "iconic" is totally irrelevant to the developers, what they care most about is if players can have fun (a point that was reiterated during Terry's direct). If you disagree with a decision the developers made, that doesn't make any point of yours more valid, instead it only means they, with the insight of over 20 years of development, see something differently than you.

The point you've been most adamant on is that there is nothing Modern Kirby games have done differently than the old ones. The thing you fail (or refuse) to understand is that this is completely subjective. It can't be proven. It's not a fact. It's simply a matter of preference. If you don't like the direction that the latest Kirby games are going in, fine. But where is it written that you suddenly have permission to make your own opinion a fact as a result? The way I and many others see it, Kirby as a whole has made several huge improvements since the days of Sakurai and the development team has (almost) never faltered. What's more, Kirby's 30th anniversary is only in 2 years, so for all we know there could be something huge planned!

Your idea here is that if nothing has changed in the design of games, there's no reason for those games to be represented. I could go on for hours as to why modern Kirby is completely different than Sakurai's games, but I'm going to attack this from a different angle. Let's take Mario for example. The way I see it, between SMG2 (2010) and Odyssey (2017), nothing much changed in the fundamental design of Mario platformers--yet there are two stages from that era. Unlike you, I'm not going to make my opinion fact--there's a reason I said the way I see it. If Mario can get 2 stages alone from not changing much, why shouldn't Kirby? Are you going to try to prove that things did in fact change during that era? Or are you going to find some other loophole and grasp at another straw using fancy words like "emblematic' or whatever?

For some reason, you have this down to a science, as if everything the developers add has to be made with the most profound wisdom, and if something doesn't align exactly with what you wanted, somehow people are being "alienated"--No, that's literally the word you used to describe Link and Ganondorf's movesets because you didn't like them. You're trying to objectify this idea that Kirby representation is fine as it is and there is no worldly reason why anyone would ever want more or better Kirby content than as is. Every time someone brings up more content, you bring up "quality over quantity," ignoring the fact that maybe, just maybe, you don't see eye to eye with someone else and because of that you have different stances on things and there's no objective solution. But your record isn't on your side. You've been making things up a lot in this thread and pulling stuff straight out of your *** since the first page. My take? You're just a vocal minority and there's no reason to believe that your crap about "quality over quantity" holds any meaning in this context.

TL;DR: Just admit that you don't have an argument and please let this thread return to normal before it gets closed.

You also still have yet to adequately respond to my first post about what you said on the first page. I raised a lot of good points there and I don't feel like repeating myself, so as far as my actual problems with Kirby content in Smash go, just refer yourself to that post.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Anyways, to rail us back onto this topic, let me TL:DR what I said on the first page:

-Game and Watch: Only 2 songs (no Game and Watch Gallery music), no Manhole Assist Trophy, and the most recent stage is a mash the series’ first two stages.
-Punch-Out: I get that Little Mac was an Assist Trophy in Brawl, but now there’s no Assist Trophy in his place. Also, only 5 songs and most of them are different variations of Minor Circuit when in Punch-Out Wii, there are specific themes for each character.

 

[Quillion]

Mogisthelioma : I too would like to move away from the discussion of Kirby and I'll just agree to disagree from now on.

You're objectively wrong about Mario by the way. You chose the two Mario games that are as far away from each other on the linearity-exploration spectrum as Mario can get. Kirby doesn't have any experimentation of that sort, just saying.

You are right about Sakurai wanting to keep characters because of his adversity of alienating players by cutting fighters, but what gives you the idea that Sakurai sees her as a "mistake"?

Well, there has to be SOME reason as to why the Zelda one-shots have been consistently excluded from playable character status even though Sheik should otherwise be the signal for even more. Do you have any idea why this is the case? I just think looking at patterns to find the reasons behind unstated things is a lot better than just sitting around and not doing so.

And keep in mind, I don't dislike Sheik, I do like her purely on being one of the perennial speedsters of the Smash series; I just think she sticks out like a sore thumb among the core cast of Zelda characters when patterns have established that Zelda one-shots have been doomed to assist status from that point onward.

 

[crazybenjamin]

Well, there has to be SOME reason as to why the Zelda one-shots have been consistently excluded from playable character status even though Sheik should otherwise be the signal for even more. Do you have any idea why this is the case?

Trouble deciding which ones should make the cut, I guess? It's not like the King K Rool situation where the only real competition was Dixie Kong.

 

[Mamboo07]

I wish I didn't start the whole "Kirby needing Modern representation thing".

 

[Proceleon]

[clap] Endless. [clap] Ocean!
ONE mention! In Brawl! In the Chronicle!

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Well, there has to be SOME reason as to why the Zelda one-shots have been consistently excluded from playable character status even though Sheik should otherwise be the signal for even more. Do you have any idea why this is the case? I just think looking at patterns to find the reasons behind unstated things is a lot better than just sitting around and not doing so.

You were the one who brought up this supposed view of Sakurai that he has on Sheik, so it falls on you to detail more about it. But anyways, in my previous post I stated how she was as part of a unique gameplay dynamic that kept going until Smash 4 where they decided to separate them and keep Sheik. From a devs' standpoint, the gameplay element is more than enough reason to not cut her, and doing so at such a late stage would just rub people who play her the wrong way. She also happens to be a very well designed character and a competitive darling for the most part that plays differently from Zelda.

One more thing about Sheik that separates her from the one shots: She is still Zelda, therefore relevant to the series. Yes, I know Sheik is just a fabricated alter ego. So what? She is one version of Zelda just like how there are other versions of Link and Ganondorf.

And I can think of far more productive things to do rather than baseless speculation... yes, the irony is not lost on me. I usually keep myself busy but I'm bored at work right now and I only come here once or twice every one or two weeks.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

Bayonetta.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

In terms of quality and not quantity, this but unironically.

April Fools!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You're objectively wrong about Mario by the way. You chose the two Mario games that are as far away from each other on the linearity-exploration spectrum as Mario can get. Kirby doesn't have any experimentation of that sort, just saying.

This is exactly what I was talking about. "Objectively wrong?" Can you prove that? There's no science or numbers to it. The only thing you were able to prove was that I was right--this is all a matter of how one views the games. There is no definitive formula that determines whether or not the game designers have changed much from game to game. You think Mario did change, I don't. You think Kirby hasn't changed, I do.

We can agree to disagree, but don't try to make your opinion fact. That falls under several fallacies that I won't list because you're better off looking them up yourself. Case in point, I was right when I said you had this down to a science. You're taking every minor detail from a game and desperately trying to use it to prove your point. Just drop it already, you've made it clear that you don't like modern Kirby games but there's no need to try to prove that they're objectively less intuitive than the previous ones. It's the way you see things, which unfortunately for you is different than most people. So perhaps instead of being a vocal minority to make you opinion seem more valid, instead ask yourself "why do most people disagree with me?" and maybe you'll realize something you weren't able to before.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

As a Zelda fan, I'll say it hurts to see so many franchises get great characters, while we're still stuck with a mountain of clones. Seriously, out of six characters, three are clones, and two have completely original movesets with little to no basis from the game.

At least Ganon has his sword now, which is amazing and makes him fun again.

In terms of other content, yeah, we got a lot. But I'd gladly trade most of the items, assists, and a few stages for Midna or Skull Kid as playable. Or even separate Tink and Yink to have canonical movesets. And why is Ganon the only villain who shares his hero's victory theme, when even DPit got a unique one? But no, we need to also take away one of the things that makes Link unique among video game heores (being left handed) and also replace Zelda's personality with Peach's as well because reasons.

Fire Emblem has the problem the opposite way - too many characters and not enough support stuff. Definitely could use more stagest there to put this mountain of FE music on.

I'm also really disappointed in the lack of stuff Sonic got. That's the only third party that's been with Smash continually since Brawl, and their rivalry in the 90s was one of the defining moments of video game history - no other company mascots can live up to Mario vs. Sonic. When they started to cross over, even if it was just the Olympics, it was massive. So after all of that, why is Sonic still by himself? He should definitely have his Luigi by now, and the fact that Megaman got his recurring boss as an assist but Sonic didn't is really strange.

I don't think Mario is hurting for content as much as the content is too samey. There are too many World 1-1s there (we needed 3D Land, Golden Plains, MKU? I'd have tossed that last one at least), and no Bowser's Castle...but we do have more intense songs. Ditto DK stages - I'd gladly replace Kongo Jungle 64 for Gangplank Galleon (and maybe switch out 75m for a foreground- or-background-only Hijinx).

 

[Gamer Cube]

In my opinion, I think they fail to represent FE!
Just kidding but they should seriously include a little more punch-out reps. They have a ton of spirits to represent, and I think another punchout character would be unnecessary because they would have virtually the same moveset. However, a good way to represent the game would be to add a fan favorite such as King Hippo as an assist trophy. It would bring more representation to a very very underappreciated game (it is seriously good if you haven't tried Mike Tyson's Punchout I encourage you to do so). It would also fit seeing as Little Mac was the only character in the original game with a wide moveset. That's why they should add King Hippo as an assist trophy. I wouldn't add another stage however, because boxing ring is basically the only place the game shows (besides NY when Mac is training).

 

[Quillion]

CaptainAmerica : I agree with everything you said.

In terms of other content, yeah, we got a lot. But I'd gladly trade most of the items, assists, and a few stages for Midna or Skull Kid as playable. Or even separate Tink and Yink to have canonical movesets. And why is Ganon the only villain who shares his hero's victory theme, when even DPit got a unique one? But no, we need to also take away one of the things that makes Link unique among video game heores (being left handed) and also replace Zelda's personality with Peach's as well because reasons.

I feel like TP/OoT Link and TP/OoT Zelda could be echoes, but they would need to be separate from the Fighter's Pass and be budget-priced, so that's unlikely. Still really want it to happen for the sake of everyone alienated by the changes.

Fire Emblem has the problem the opposite way - too many characters and not enough support stuff. Definitely could use more stagest there to put this mountain of FE music on.

I still think the problem with Fire Emblem is that they're prioritizing the "new kids on the block" over the actually popular characters. We all seemed to agree here that they should put in the characters that are actually popular over the ones that are new.

I'm also really disappointed in the lack of stuff Sonic got. That's the only third party that's been with Smash continually since Brawl, and their rivalry in the 90s was one of the defining moments of video game history - no other company mascots can live up to Mario vs. Sonic. When they started to cross over, even if it was just the Olympics, it was massive. So after all of that, why is Sonic still by himself? He should definitely have his Luigi by now, and the fact that Megaman got his recurring boss as an assist but Sonic didn't is really strange.

I'm a little disappointed on some level, but Sega is probably tying something up on their end. They're refusing to make any Smash-original remixes for one.

I don't think Mario is hurting for content as much as the content is too samey. There are too many World 1-1s there (we needed 3D Land, Golden Plains, MKU? I'd have tossed that last one at least), and no Bowser's Castle...but we do have more intense songs. Ditto DK stages - I'd gladly replace Kongo Jungle 64 for Gangplank Galleon (and maybe switch out 75m for a foreground- or-background-only Hijinx).

That's a good point. A lot of the newer Mario stages bar NDC are pretty samey. Bowser's Castle has been a must since at least Brawl. But again, there has to be some reason as to why such a heavily demanded stage is excluded, and I still think it's the "Bowser's Castle problem" of not being emblematic.

 

[scoobymcsnack]

CaptainAmerica :
I'm a little disappointed on some level, but Sega is probably tying something up on their end. They're refusing to make any Smash-original remixes for one.
.

Yeah this has to be why, I can't imagine why else they would be holding out on Sonic content. I wonder why Sega would do that though.

 

[Mamboo07]

As a Zelda fan, I'll say it hurts to see so many franchises get great characters, while we're still stuck with a mountain of clones. Seriously, out of six characters, three are clones, and two have completely original movesets with little to no basis from the game.

At least Ganon has his sword now, which is amazing and makes him fun again.

In terms of other content, yeah, we got a lot. But I'd gladly trade most of the items, assists, and a few stages for Midna or Skull Kid as playable. Or even separate Tink and Yink to have canonical movesets. And why is Ganon the only villain who shares his hero's victory theme, when even DPit got a unique one? But no, we need to also take away one of the things that makes Link unique among video game heores (being left handed) and also replace Zelda's personality with Peach's as well because reasons.

Fire Emblem has the problem the opposite way - too many characters and not enough support stuff. Definitely could use more stagest there to put this mountain of FE music on.

I'm also really disappointed in the lack of stuff Sonic got. That's the only third party that's been with Smash continually since Brawl, and their rivalry in the 90s was one of the defining moments of video game history - no other company mascots can live up to Mario vs. Sonic. When they started to cross over, even if it was just the Olympics, it was massive. So after all of that, why is Sonic still by himself? He should definitely have his Luigi by now, and the fact that Megaman got his recurring boss as an assist but Sonic didn't is really strange.

I don't think Mario is hurting for content as much as the content is too samey. There are too many World 1-1s there (we needed 3D Land, Golden Plains, MKU? I'd have tossed that last one at least), and no Bowser's Castle...but we do have more intense songs. Ditto DK stages - I'd gladly replace Kongo Jungle 64 for Gangplank Galleon (and maybe switch out 75m for a foreground- or-background-only Hijinx).

I agree with this.
*glares at Sakurai Nintendo for neglecting and ignoring Kirby by not letting the poor little guy have more modern representation.*

 

[Perkilator]

I concede-the quantity is where FE excels at, but it lacks in quality. They way I see it:

-I would replace with as the penultimate DLC character in Smash 4
-I would replace (no offense, love the man) with Caeda as the base game FE rep
-I would replace (again, love you, no offense) with Claude as the DLC FE rep, and out Claude in FP Vol. 2
-As far as new stages go, I’d add the Temple of Mila to represent FE’s NES era and the Opera House to represent the 3DS era
-Assist Trophies are a step in the right direction, so I’ll give that a pass (though I would’ve liked to see Arvis as one)
-And here’s some music I would’ve liked to see (several remix examples can be found from these videos; those marked with ^ are different takes on songs already in the game, and those marked with $ would be part of Byelth’s challenger pack):

• Story 2: Each Map’s Beginning (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)^
• Path of the Hero-King~Fates (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)
• Together, We Ride~New Remix (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)^
• Sweet Victory (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)
• What Lies at the End (Alm Map 2) (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia)
• The Sacrifice and the Saint (Celica Map 2) (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia)
• Twilight of the Gods (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia)
• Dark Emperor Hardin (Mystery of the Emblem)
• Prologue: Birth of a Holy Knight (Genealogy of the Holy War)
• Chapter 2: Uprising in Augustria (Genealogy of the Holy War)
• Endgame: The Final Holy War (Genealogy of the Holy War)
• Beneath a New Light (Roy’s Courage) (Binding Blade)
• Blessings of the Eight Generals I & II (Blazing Blade)
• Determination/The Prince’s Despair (Sacred Stones)
• Eternal Bond (Radiant Dawn)^
• Those Who Dare to Change History (New Mystery of the Emblem)
• Forbidden Sanctuary~Shadows of Valentia (New Mystery of the Emblem)
• Conquest (Ablaze) (Awakening)^
• Id (Hope) (Awakening)
• Welob Tsap (Flow) (Fates)
• Justice RIP (Storm) (Fates)
• Misery in Hand (Fates)
• Alight (Storm) (Fates)
• Dusk Falls (Fire) (Fates)
• Condemnation (Fates)
• Lost King’s Supper
• End of All (Below) (Fates)
• Fódlan Winds (Three Houses)^$
• Tempest of Seasons (Three Houses)$
• Dwellings of the Ancient Gods (Thunder) (Three Houses)$
• Life at Garreg Mach Monastery (Three Houses)$
• Roar of Dominion (Three Houses)$
• Indomitable Will (Three Houses)$
• Shambhala (Area 17 Redux) (Three Houses)$
• God-Shattering Star (Three Houses)$
• The World Tree (Warriors)

 

[Arthur97]

Come on, don't do that to Chrom. Not again.

 

[ivanlerma]

I concede-the quantity is where FE excels at, but it lacks in quality. They way I see it:

-I would replace with as the penultimate DLC character in Smash 4
-I would replace (no offense, love the man) with Caeda as the base game FE rep
-I would replace (again, love you, no offense) with Claude as the DLC FE rep, and out Claude in FP Vol. 2
-As far as new stages go, I’d add the Temple of Mila to represent FE’s NES era and the Opera House to represent the 3DS era
-Assist Trophies are a step in the right direction, so I’ll give that a pass (though I would’ve liked to see Arvis as one)
-And here’s some music I would’ve liked to see (several remix examples can be found from these videos; those marked with ^ are different takes on songs already in the game, and those marked with $ would be part of Byelth’s challenger pack):

• Story 2: Each Map’s Beginning (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)^
• Path of the Hero-King~Fates (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)
• Together, We Ride~New Remix (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)^
• Sweet Victory (Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light)
• What Lies at the End (Alm Map 2) (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia)
• The Sacrifice and the Saint (Celica Map 2) (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia)
• Twilight of the Gods (Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia)
• Dark Emperor Hardin (Mystery of the Emblem)
• Prologue: Birth of a Holy Knight (Genealogy of the Holy War)
• Chapter 2: Uprising in Augustria (Genealogy of the Holy War)
• Endgame: The Final Holy War (Genealogy of the Holy War)
• Beneath a New Light (Roy’s Courage) (Binding Blade)
• Blessings of the Eight Generals I & II (Blazing Blade)
• Determination/The Prince’s Despair (Sacred Stones)
• Eternal Bond (Radiant Dawn)^
• Those Who Dare to Change History (New Mystery of the Emblem)
• Forbidden Sanctuary~Shadows of Valentia (New Mystery of the Emblem)
• Conquest (Ablaze) (Awakening)^
• Id (Hope) (Awakening)
• Welob Tsap (Flow) (Fates)
• Justice RIP (Storm) (Fates)
• Misery in Hand (Fates)
• Alight (Storm) (Fates)
• Dusk Falls (Fire) (Fates)
• Condemnation (Fates)
• Lost King’s Supper
• End of All (Below) (Fates)
• Fódlan Winds (Three Houses)^$
• Tempest of Seasons (Three Houses)$
• Dwellings of the Ancient Gods (Thunder) (Three Houses)$
• Life at Garreg Mach Monastery (Three Houses)$
• Roar of Dominion (Three Houses)$
• Indomitable Will (Three Houses)$
• Shambhala (Area 17 Redux) (Three Houses)$
• God-Shattering Star (Three Houses)$
• The World Tree (Warriors)

This is a good list of what fire emblem would've had however the only ideas i can disagree with are the fighters.i wouldn't replace them if they're already part of smash or are the main characters(especially chrom)i can accept Caeda however.

 

[Super Toaster]

I know everyone has already said this, but Sonic deserves at least a few more characters.

If I could only add one I would have to flip a coin between Knuckles and Eggman.

Imagine Eggman mains.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm not sure I would say a few fighters. One, sure.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Imagine Eggman mains.

Hm? Did someone say my name? Wait--

I have never played a Sonic game but I would unironically main Eggman if he got in

 

[Super Toaster]

I'm not sure I would say a few fighters. One, sure.

Why not?

I'm sure 3rd party legal mumbo jumbo would make things difficult, but who wouldn't want to see more Sonic representation?

 

[Arthur97]

Why not?

I'm sure 3rd party legal mumbo jumbo would make things difficult, but who wouldn't want to see more Sonic representation?

More, sure, but let's keep it to one fighter. In the meantime, they can work on better music representation.

Also, several people probably wouldn't. No one's going to agree on everything. I loathed Joker's inclusion while others sang his (and/or his game/series') praises.

 

[Kold Pizza]

IMO, the Kirby series is the most underrepresented Nintendo series because it needs representation for the modern Kirby games. Kirby hasn’t had a newcomer since Brawl, I want to see this series get a new character like Bandana Dee because, to me, the Kirby characters are super fun to play as. Other than Kirby, I would say the Donkey Kong series and the Zelda series. Kudos to the staff for giving the DK series some love in Ultimate. We got K. Rool along with a new DK item and the Klaptrap assist trophy. The DK representation is near perfect for me, all it needs is Dixie and a new DK stage that isn’t jungle themed. As for the Zelda series, it’s stage representation and item representation are definitely great, in the character department though, it would be cool if we got a character outside the Triforce characters.

As for third party, Sonic is the most underrepresented series for me. I would say a lot of this has to do with how much Sega is willing to co-operate with Nintendo and the Smash developers on Sonic’s representation. I’m not giving up hope for a new Sonic character. It’s still possible. If it happens, I want it to be Tails, I would main him right away if he joined the roster.

 

[RodAcoPer]

Paper Mario In General Since:
-There's Few Spirits (Just 9)
-We only have just 2 music tracks
-1 stage
And it's a Low number If you compare it with other spin-offs like Mario Kart and Mario Tennis
-Having 12 spirits from Mario Kart ,8 from the Mario & Luigi Series, 2 from Mario Tennis & 1 from Doctor Mario
-Mario Kart has 2 Stages in Ultimate [3 in total if we add Rainbow Road]
-8 Tracks from Mario & Luigi Series, 15 from Mario Kart, 4 from Mario Tennis & 3 from Doctor Mario

Even though the representation is more low than the other spin-offs, at least Sora Limited Acknowledge all the games of the franchise more than what
Nintendo will ever do in the future