What franchise is underapprociated/underrepresented in ultimate.

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#1
hello everybody, iv'e like to ask this question out because i am wondering about this topic and wish to know more. but what franchises/series do you think is underapprociated/underrepresented in smash ultimate? in terms of characters, music,spirits/trophies, or just in general. i'd like to hear you guys explain why and how a series in smash is the way it is that makes you upset.

Edit: Just a Quick Edit to add a message, when coming here to talk please don't attack others for their opinions and not act rude otherwise you'll be band from this thread.
 
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Wario Wario Wario

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#3
Sonic - I'd say the treatment of Sonic is criminal, but honestly I think I'd endorse every single criminal act in the known world before endorsing how Sakurai has treated Sonic. The fact that Kid Icarus, god damn KID ICARUS, has more fighters than Sonic is an absolute felony.
 

Cadillac

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#4
Sin & Punishment.
A great game, but only has a costume and some spirits. The AT from Smash 4 was removed. Saki would be a cool addition.
 

Lenidem

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#5
The fanboy in me would say Zelda, but the only problem is with the payable fighters. Aside from that, we have lots of items, stages, songs, an assist trophies.

Sonic is weirdly under-represented, but since it's third-party things might be complicated, I don't know.

So I would say Fire Emblem. One assist, two songs, and a few spirits... This serie deserves so much more.
 
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#6
DK - needs Dixie Kong
Zelda - needs more non Link characters
Pac-Man - needs a Ms. Pac-Man echo
Xenoblade, Kirby, Sonic - could all use newcomers
Advance Wars, Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven - could use characters in general

Also I think Spirit DLC event franchises like Resident Evil, Astral Chain, and Ring Fit Trainer could all use Mii Costumes instead of only Spirits. (Jill, Leon, Chris, Claire, Akira Howard (M/F), Ring Fit Trainer (M/F)).
Game and Watch by a huge margin. All it has besides :ultgnw:, :flatzone2:, and the two Flat Zone themes we were graced with as of Brawl is Spirits. That's it. No Manhole Assist Trophy (and yes, I know it's :ultgnw:'s :GCD::GCA:), no Game and Watch Gallery music, no original Game and Watch stage that isn't just Flat Zone X...poor :ultgnw:.

:ultgnw:: (sad beeping noises)
Ms. Game & Watch for :ultgnw: echo fighter.
 
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Quillion

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#11
And just from that ONE word, I'm going to say:


Here we go again with people complaining about the quantity of representation and nothing about the quality of representation.

People, please. Instead of asking how much can we add to this series' representation, ask how well can we add to this series' representation.

Sonic - I'd say the treatment of Sonic is criminal, but honestly I think I'd endorse every single criminal act in the known world before endorsing how Sakurai has treated Sonic. The fact that Kid Icarus, god damn KID ICARUS, has more fighters than Sonic is an absolute felony.
Kid Icarus is a first party franchise with no rights tied up while Sonic is a third party franchise that requires a lot of negotiation. Why are you comparing these two? Vocal Sonic fanboys (saying this as a Sonic fan myself) are no reason to give Sonic some fabled "special treatment" in Smash.
 

Rie Sonomura

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#12
Playable franchises:
F-Zero: :ultfalcon: as the only playable character, Samurai Goroh AT, various Spirits, mostly remixes with very few X/GX tracks. missing the most glaring omission music wise - Theme of Captain Falcon from GX
Xenoblade: only :ultshulk: is playable. Rex had a Mii Costume as a bonus for buying FPv1. Various 1, 2, X spirits, some 2 music, no X music whatsoever. No Torna content either.
Final Fantasy: ... do I really need to explain?

Non-Playable franchises:
ARMS: Spring Man is an AT. Various Spirits minus some glaring omissions like Dr. Coyle, Lola Pop, and Mechanica. No music.
Advance Wars: The Infantry & Tanks AT from 4 did not return in Ultimate. Only a few spirits, iirc no music.
 
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#13
i didn't expect people to bring up non playable franchises, i honestly was expecting just explainations on the playable characters series.
 
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#14
i didn't expect people to bring up non playable franchises, i honestly was expecting just explainations on the playable characters series.
Speaking of playable franchises, I think Punch-Out has it pretty bad as well. Spirits are technically all it truly has as well, along with :ultlittlemac: and Boxing Ring. No Assist Trophies* and only 5 songs (3 of which are just the same songs, just different versions).

*Not counting ye olde days of Brawl, when :ultlittlemac: was an Assist Trophy himself and the only other semblance of Punch-Out content was in a Famicom medley.
 
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Rie Sonomura

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#15
Speaking of playable franchises, I think Punch-Out has it pretty bad as well. Spirits are technically all it truly has as well, along with :ultlittlemac: and Boxing Ring. No Assist Trophies and only 5 songs (3 of which are just the same songs, just different versions).
to be fair Little Mac was an Assist Trophy in Brawl, and who's gonna be his replacement for the series AT?
 
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#16
Disappointed that no one else here has mentioned Kirby yet. We're talking about one of Nintendo's most recognized and best selling franchises, and yet the jarring majority of its content dates back to 1996 or before. What's worse is that uneducated people will tell you that the series is "fine as it is" with only its "timeless" character. Meanwhile, Fire Emblem has 8 fighters and Mario....well you get the idea.
:ultpiranha:
 
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Quillion

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#18
Speaking of playable franchises, I think Punch-Out has it pretty bad as well. Spirits are technically all it truly has as well, along with :ultlittlemac: and Boxing Ring. No Assist Trophies* and only 5 songs (3 of which are just the same songs, just different versions).

*Not counting ye olde days of Brawl, when :ultlittlemac: was an Assist Trophy himself and the only other semblance of Punch-Out content was in a Famicom medley.
What are you expecting? Do you want Punch Out's section of the roster to be padded out with variants of the same moveset like Fire Emblem and Star Fox?

Disappointed that no one else here has mentioned Kirby yet. We're talking about one of Nintendo's most recognized and best selling franchises, and yet the jarring majority of its content dates back to 1996 or before. What's worse is that uneducated people will tell you that the series is "fine as it is" with only its "timeless" character. Meanwhile, Fire Emblem has 8 fighters and Mario....well you get the idea.
:ultpiranha:
Instead of saying that "newer Kirby needs to be represented", ask yourself: is there any vital facet of Kirby originating in the modern era that needs to be represented? Focus on quality and not quantity.
 
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#19
What are you expecting? Do you want Punch Out's section of the roster to be padded out with variants of the same moveset like Fire Emblem and Star Fox?
No, nothing of the sort; in fact, Punch-Out doesn’t even NEED new fighters at all. Just something more than just :ultlittlemac:, his home stage, 5 songs with the majority just the same, and 13 Spirits. Have some Super Punch-Out music as well as some of the opponent themes from Punch-Out Wii, have the rest of the absent Punch-Out Wii opponents be Spirits, maybe even throw in a Bald Bull Assist Trophy, BOOM. Some at least adequate Punch-Out representation. Remember, representation of a franchise in Smash is MORE than just characters.
 

whitesnake

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#20
I don’t think Zelda needs anymore because it already has the main repeating antagonists and protagonists. It’s a super popular series but most of the other popular characters are one-off

Of the existing franchises I think...

Sonic — tails robotnik or knuckles
DK - Dixie
Mega Man - Zero (playable) Proto Man or Wiley
PAC man - Mrs

Overall though it seems they have done a good job of picking the most appropriate rep for a given franchise
 

Quillion

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#22
:ultkirby:-No modern Kirby representation. (For God's sake Sakurai, just please put Bandana Dee in Smash as a fighter.)
Again, there's nothing that modern Kirby does that classic Kirby doesn't already. Modern Kirby may be doing it better, but it's not doing anything different.

:ultyoshi:-He really needs another rep after being ignored for years.
Like who? Baby Mario and Luigi?

:ultwario:-Same as Yoshi and Kirby above, also more Wario Land representation in Smash.
Wario has even less viable characters to choose from even compared to Kirby and Yoshi. Agree we do need more stuff from Land, though moveset wise, the Dash Attack is enough.
 

Mamboo07

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#24
Wario’s moveset should have been waaayyyyy more based on wario land. All of his specials should be replaced
Agree, here's what his specials would be:
Neutral-Money Bag Toss
Side-Shoulder Bash
Up-Super Jump
Down-Earthshake Punch
Final Smash-Wario Car (Drives around on the stage running over opponents and can jump.)
 

Quillion

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#25
Wario’s moveset should have been waaayyyyy more based on wario land. All of his specials should be replaced
It's not like Wario Land has any more viable options for specials than Ware. Bike for Ware and Shoulder Bash for Land is good enough.
 
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#26
It's not like Wario Land has any more viable options for specials than Ware. Bike for Ware and Shoulder Bash for Land is good enough.
Listen, I know too much of anything is a bad thing, but…it feels to me like you’re complacent with series having as little content as possible.

To me, a fighter and their non-fighter representation is only really “good enough” when it truly feels like there’s enough content to call them that (like with Mario, Fire Emblem, and Fatal Fury, which has a HUGE boatload of love for only a DLC PACK).
 
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#27
Instead of saying that "newer Kirby needs to be represented", ask yourself: is there any vital facet of Kirby originating in the modern era that needs to be represented? Focus on quality and not quantity.
Again, there's nothing that modern Kirby does that classic Kirby doesn't already. Modern Kirby may be doing it better, but it's not doing anything different.
And the quality of representation is also pretty jarring too. Marx is the best thing we have, and I'll concede that he's definitely the best boss in the game, but that's peak Kirby content in Smash for you.
  • The music selection is questionable and lackluster
  • We have three (3) versions of green greens
  • Meta Knight still has a made-up moveset (shuttle loop doesn't count since it was integrated in Kirby games after he was added)
  • Dedede's moveset has a few callbacks to Kirby games but lacks inspiration (albeit some of the very first Kirrby games, nothing new)
  • Kirby's moveset is very basic and focuses on the oldest copy abilities. There's a whole pool of different attacks to choose from with some of the new copy abilties yet we're stuck with:
    • Stone (Down B)
    • Cutter (Up B)
    • Fire (Dash attack)
    • Hammer (Side B)
    • Fighter? (Up throw?)
  • None of the spirit battles stand out (then again I never liked Spirits so this one is more of a matter of preference)
I don't care what your belief on quality versus quantity is. The truth remains that most Kirby content in Smash ignores 20+ years of game design, and as someone who has enjoyed several post-Sakurai Kirby games I find that unacceptable. Even if they unleash mind-blowing Kirby content in Smash, I, like many others, will be disappointed if most of it is from Super Star or beforehand. Imagine if Pokemon content was limited to Gen 1 to Gen 3 and anything beyond that got bottleneck representation. People would be outraged, and that's how it feels. There's an enormous pool of content the devs could be choosing from, and they continually decide to pick from games that cater to a generation of people that played games 15-20 years ago.

My point is that eventually the quantity does matter, because if you limit something to a low quantity of content then you need to carefully decide what is going to make that up. And the comparatively low quantity of Kirby content in Smash heavily favors the games designed before Sakurai left the franchise in 2003. People who play Kirby games today have little to connect to other than the three fighters themselves, because none of the stages, assist trophies, or even new remixes are from any recent Kirby game.

99% of everyone who plays the newest Kirby games agrees that Bandana Dee is the new fourth main character. I've defended him a hundred times, and I will again if I have to. The fact that 12 years of crusading for his inclusion has yielded only a spirit, whereas Byleth gets a free pass in the game simply for being from Fire Emblem, is daunting (I'm using this as an example, not to suddenly bash on Fire Emblem here). And it's more than just one potential newcomers. There is a plethora of Kirby content, be it newcomers, stages, music tracks, assist trophies, or bosses, that is being shafted due to Sakurai's (presumable) bias against Kirby games he didn't design.

What's worse is that uneducated people will jump to the conclusion that he's biased in favor of Kirby if he so much as mentions the franchise. The poor man has had to clarify several times that he did not make any decision in favor of his own franchise out of bias, and yet still people will attack him with bloodlust if we ever get another Kirby newcomer. When Brawl came out, people accused him of being biased when he added Dedede and Meta Knight, and we have never had a Kirby newcomer since then. Coincidence? You decide, but I think not.

In short: Kirby fans have been getting the short end of the stick since 2008, and I say it's objectively reasonable for them to want something bigger than what we have now. It no longer matters how much they touch up the representation of older games, they no longer reflect what's going on with Kirby games now. It's like if someone tried to take an antique car on a highway because they polished it and expected it to go faster. It doesn't matter how pretty something is, you need to be with the times. And right now, whoever is in charge of what Kirby content gets into Smash is clearly not with the times.
 
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Quillion

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#30
Listen, I know too much of anything is a bad thing, but…it feels to me like you’re complacent with series having as little content as possible.

To me, a fighter and their non-fighter representation is only really “good enough” when it truly feels like there’s enough content to call them that (like with Mario, Fire Emblem, and Fatal Fury, which has a HUGE boatload of love for only a DLC PACK).
Look, there are franchises that inherently have little to give like Ice Climber.

This is why people should give up on the idea of "fair representation". It's just not going to happen when some franchises have little to give while others are bursting at the seams.
 

Lenidem

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#31
Look, there are franchises that inherently have little to give like Ice Climber.

This is why people should give up on the idea of "fair representation". It's just not going to happen when some franchises have little to give while others are bursting at the seams.
Yeah, SOME franchises, like Ice Climbers, have little to give. Others, like Zelda, DK, Kirby, or Golden Sun, do have a lot. This is why you should give up telling people what they should want.
 

crazybenjamin

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#32
Overall, DK. Yeah, Dixie is a jarring omission, but we need stages as well.

Don't really understand why people think the Yoshi series is neglected, I always saw him as a Mario series character first and foremost.
 

Lenidem

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#33
Overall, DK. Yeah, Dixie is a jarring omission, but we need stages as well.

Don't really understand why people think the Yoshi series is neglected, I always saw him as a Mario series character first and foremost.
The Yoshi serie is a special case. It lacks items and trophies, yes (Poochie would be a great one, like Rambi for DK). But characters? I don't think so.
 

crazybenjamin

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#34
The Yoshi serie is a special case. It lacks items and trophies, yes (Poochie would be a great one, like Rambi for DK). But characters? I don't think so.
A Poochy AT is an interesting idea. Not really sure what other items could be brought in from Yoshi's games though.

The main point I was trying to make: would people still consider there to be a problem, if Yoshi was just classified as a Mario series character in the first place? At least DK got his own identity, separate from Mario. (Others have said that Wario has his own identity as well, but I don't really agree with them, Wario will always be "the anti-Mario" to me)
 
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Zinith

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#35
Overall, DK. Yeah, Dixie is a jarring omission, but we need stages as well.

Don't really understand why people think the Yoshi series is neglected, I always saw him as a Mario series character first and foremost.
Until all of the Yoshi music, stages, Spirits, etc. are classified in-game as Mario assets, it stays separate regardless of what other people think :yoshi:
 

Mamboo07

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#36
A Poochy AT is an interesting idea. Not really sure what other items could be brought in from Yoshi's games though.

The main point I was trying to make: would people still consider there to be a problem, if Yoshi was just classified as a Mario series character in the first place? At least DK got his own identity, separate from Mario. (Others have said that Wario has his own identity as well, but I don't really agree with them, Wario will always be "the anti-Mario" to me)
I really want Poochy as a fighter in Smash.
 

Zinith

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#38
I can't really agree with Sakurai's decision there though. Already we've seen problems, the SMW songs can't be played on the SMW stage.
He probably sees that as a small sacrifice to pay for focus and consistency. If you'd like to convince Sakurai to remove my boi's logo because of a technicality of the music in one stage regardless of whether or not the available music fits aesthetically, be my guess.

But for now, I'd like to ruminate, lament and speculate on this game based on the current status of Smash, which includes Yoshi being its own thing :yoshi:
 

Lenidem

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#39
I think there is no hard fact here. The Wario, Yoshi, DK, Luigi's Mansion, and Mario Kart/sports series are tied to the Mario Universe (duh) and at the same time, they are series of their own (duh), at different levels: LM is closer to the Mario serie than, say, Wario Ware, which is far away on the spectrum. It really is a point of view and a matter of choice. I have no problem with Yoshi representing his own serie, since it has it's own graphic and musical style. But that doesn't mean this serie "deserves" or "needs" another rep.

That being said, I think we are slightly off-topic.
 
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#40
Look, there are franchises that inherently have little to give like Ice Climber.

This is why people should give up on the idea of "fair representation". It's just not going to happen when some franchises have little to give while others are bursting at the seams.
Uh, who made you in charge of what people can and cannot want from the games they play? I don't think you understand what people mean by "fair representation." It's not games having content in Smash proportional to the amount of games released or whatever. It's about accurately depicting what is happening in said games so they can appeal more to both old veterans, newer players, and people who have yet to play those games.

Referring to the Ice Climbers is a strawman argument. When people complain about the misrepresentation of Kirby, Zelda, and DK, they all have valid complaints. There's so much more they could be doing for those series alone, and they all feel as if they're getting the short end of the stick. It's not as if those three series only have has much content to provide as IC.
 
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