What could Link benefit from?

[The_NZA]

I know Mods don't get thrilled about these conversations but I think it's pretty productive in a game that is still in its development life time. I think most people feel Link is a very "complete" character and does not have glaring weaknesses that need to be addressed. Nevertheless, maybe more options could make Link more interesting. Afterall, one of the goal's of PM is to have a more balanced cast, and is Link really on that fox level yet?

I think the one thing I feel Link could benefit from is having his bomb's sitting on platforms to be more useful. The bomb was clearly designed as a projectile moreso than a trap, but I'd like to see it be more versatile (just like Link is supposed to be). I wish that "sitting" bombs would be more powerful than their aerial variants. I don't know if that is codeable, but making it so that the bomb explodes differently if it is touching the ground when it times out. One way to change that is to just make the bomb WAY stronger if it times out––that way cooking a bomb in your hand has an advantage and laying bomb traps would be way better.

Also, I know some have expressed giving the boomerang a better hit trajectory would be nice.

 

[Sarix]

Better mobility overall, it's difficult to mount a good offensive with Link's near bottom of the barrel mobility which includes: his wavedash length, dash speed, and ground to air momentum. This also makes it difficult for him to reset a situation given his problems under pressure and slow normals that don't cover his lack of mobility. Being able to start zoning with Link in neutral is not very safe as he can't quickly make space for himself to safely pull out a projectile before the opponent reaches him.

As for the bombs just make them like his N64 bombs where they set themselves after hitting an opponent after a basic throw. I'm all for Link becoming a more trap-oriented zoning character since it would make enough sense with his tools. Overall I always imagined him playing like Rachel or Testament and being flexible enough to play in different ways but still based around setting traps.

Arrows that actually have uses. Good God they don't add much of anything. Their speed is fine but they don't contribute anything to Link's pressure or zoning game outside of being a vanilla "shoot at the opponent" projectile that doesn't lead into anything like combos, mix-ups, pressure, etc. Keeping it a basic zoning tool is fine but it needs to add something to Link's zoning aside from being a mild long-distance annoyance.

 

[Problem2]

Link's arrows are a decent edge guarding tool since they hit people straight away. Don't forget you can now DI and fast fall as your charging/shotting arrows (like Falco and his lasers), which gives you more angles to cover.

Other than his bombs being smaller here than in Melee, I think Link's bombs are fine. (I also liked his old trajectory better, but I think that's more player preference than an actual benefit)

His really bad mobility is his number 1 weakness though. Other characters with bad mobility usually make up for it with a powerful oos game or a reliable quick "gtfo" type of move. Link doesn't have a very good oos game. His jump takes too long to jump away or wavedash. His grab is 11 frames instead of 7 (and people can jump to evade it). His up-b is the closest thing to a "gtfo" move, but it has like 8 frames of start-up and doesn't cover from above.

So my 2 cents: best changes would be to reduce jump squat to match, let's say Falco, and reduce the start-up of his grab to like 9 frames.

 

[Ninjamo]

I'm not sure if they left it this way (like Brawl) on purpose, but I preferred when the hook/clawshot didn't home in on ledges like in Melee. Also it seems to have shorter range when used in the air, but it could just be me.

Another small problem, while not necessarily Link-specific, is how he catches the bomb mid air while air dodging right after z-dropping it. I used a tactic in Melee where I drop a bomb almost "inside" of the opponent while air-dodging away from or through them.

Other than that, P:M Link is a beast.

 

[SmashShadow]

I'm not sure if they left it this way (like Brawl) on purpose, but I preferred when the hook/clawshot didn't home in on ledges like in Melee. Also it seems to have shorter range when used in the air, but it could just be me.

Another small problem, while not necessarily Link-specific, is how he catches the bomb mid air while air dodging right after z-dropping it. I used a tactic in Melee where I drop a bomb almost "inside" of the opponent while air-dodging away from or through them.

Other than that, P:M Link is a beast.

His clawshot is shorter because it's brawl clawshot and not melee's and since brawl doesn't have melee tether mechanics they can't grab the sides of stages.

 

[Ninjamo]

That makes sense, I always thought I was timing it wrong for sides of stages and walls

 

[Beorn]

All of that stuff is well and good but honestly they just need to fix his hit bubbles... I have discussed this before and don't care to reiterate soooo... Behold.

This is just one hilarious example... This is why every utilt in the game goes through this move. I would encourage everyone in this thread to visit the link hitbubbles and frame data thread on the main PM Link section.

 

[Xenozoa425]

Pretty much agree with everything here. Maybe give his dtilt meteor a slightly larger window. Can't count how many times I've gotten people this way, lol.

 

[Ninjamo]

This is just one hilarious example...

Wow... That's insane. I gotta check out the other ones now...

 

[Beorn]

Check this **** out...

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/img2013010800713.jpg/?sa=0

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/img2013010800712.jpg/?sa=0

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/img2013010800711.jpg/?sa=0

 

[Shadic]

And Utilt technically wasn't even hitting graphically in that shot (second picture) so...

But yeah, little stuff like that is being looked into.

 

[Vashimus]

Link needs to trade swords with Marth.

 

[The_NZA]

Is there a reason people are against the bombs getting stronger as they are cooked idea?

Is it because many of you simply feel it is a bad idea, too strong, unnecessary, or what? Because to me, it looks like the strategy of leaving bombs on the ground is pretty "meh" but people keep doing it hoping it will be more efective than it really is.

 

[Strong Badam]

link could really use better players

 

[BRLNK88]

Lol, Link stabs you with a big metal paddle board.

 

[SpiderMad]

because to me, it looks like the strategy of leaving bombs on the ground is pretty "meh" but people keep doing it hoping it will be more efective than it really is.

Bomb laying the ground is one thing, but laying on platforms opens up a lot of options you can train on to utilize more than the opponent the same you would with Diddy's bananas except you have a tether to do a lot more like explode them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yZaBPp5ZF0 . I'm not against your idea though, I'd pry like if when bombs turned red they did more damage besides them exploding themselves which I have no clue how much damage that does compared to a explode on impact.

Laying on the ground still has options like seen in that video though, if it's near the edge you can AGT it while recovering back (or AGT it off if you're edge guarding someone), and then you can practice the added option of instant AGT'ing (which you can do OOS) at 2:39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9yZaBPp5ZF0#t=158s

 

[The_NZA]

It would be cool if they got to N64 bomb strength or something when they cook completely. I'd like a call back to that game in Modern Link's design.

 

[Beorn]

And Utilt technically wasn't even hitting graphically in that shot (second picture) so...

But yeah, little stuff like that is being looked into.

Yeah, I was pointing out the zaxis problems. So that people understood why the entire first half of utilt goes through most characters. The point was that from the front it would actually look like it was hitting mario, but from that angle you can see why it doesn't.

Judging from that melee picture not only is the hitbubble further from his hurtbubble, but they also didn't even take into account that his sword is longer in brawl as it extends further beyond the hitbubble in brawl by a good bit.

That's cool to hear that you guys are looking into these problems.

 

[Juushichi]

Yep, that would be very useful and would probably make Link feel more oppressive when it comes to CQC. This is good because Link doesn't have the speed to ward people off of him.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

I feel that some of the SD remix tweaks might actually help Link in P:M.

1. The back air consistently connects both hits: I don't know why this wasn't done earlier
2. Faster usmash with : in SD remix it hits on frame 5. I dont' know how this would affect the rest of Link's matchups but it might give him a good OoS option vs spacies.
3. Faster jumpsquat.
4. Melee bomb stats.

Also, it would help if he had more variety in his ko moves. for such a slow character, it takes a while for him to actually kill.

 

[Jesseyo]

My list is a little different from most.

1. No more having to catch the boomerang. Unless it's implemented in a way that it can react like Melee v1 with Young Link (the hookshot jump) or so we can airdodge it to either; A. Travel through link or B. Super wavedash-esque movement.

2. Bombs act like melee with their hitboxes. Upon tapping someone with a bomb (via dropping it or a very, VERY weak hit) the bomb puts the opponent on fire and has a small knockback without having the bomb explode. This would add a decent and skillful way to deal with someone inside your space without being too much at risk of being punished. It's great in melee for an OoS option at lower percentages. Very underrated and underutilized move in Melee.

3. Jump-squat animation shortened (original!)


I really like Link, but playing any competent Fox/Falco/Wolf out speeds him so easily that he can't do anything. Sure, he has options against them, but they're usually risky or require an opponent mistake to even attempt it.

 

[WeenusChu]

Would really like to see his Z-air become a more dominant aspect in his play.
If all hits functioned like the second hit and grappled the person up and towards you, Link would have a lot more interesting combo options and a consistent combo starter.
Problem with that idea is that it would be way too spammable considering the lack of landing lag. It creates an uninteresting spacing game where his other spacing tools are just pointless by comparison.
That said, his spacing tools already are pretty uninteresting compared to a lot of the cast, and very cumbersome.

Making Link more mobile, besides increasing his base movespeed or giving him a superior wavedash, means making his specials and aerials more interesting and streamlined.
Bombs are probably fine as is, and the Aerial Glide Toss gives him some sort of weird offstage recovery. I'd like to see a variant that allows him to throw downward while gaining upward momentum.

Boomerang and Arrow are both sort of bland. Boomerang is probably fine, admittedly. The fact that you control the angles gives it enough reason to exist, however weak.
Arrow is outright boring though, and offers no mobility options approaching or retreating.
It's only practical for edge-guarding, and I guess that's what's intended for it, but it feels like a missed opportunity.
With so many interesting items in the Legend of Zelda saga, it would be nice to see if they could hash out something else for him to use.
The Hammer is iconic enough, as an example.
That said, adding models to the game is a task that I couldn't begin to understand -- the difficulty could likely be so high that the practicality of adding other elements to the game is an impossibility.

It's fine for characters to have dead or utility aerials too. Link's B-Air is by no means extraordinary and rarely used, though it certainly is a fine option in a lot of cases.
But with a character that presently is underpowered comparatively with the rest of the cast, there has to be something that can be done with it.
Offering him something similar to maybe Lucas's B-air would change his zoning game significantly, and give him a reason to face away in some matchups.

He's a character that has a lot of potential to be really cool.
He has his weaknesses in recovery, a decent zoning game, really cool punishes.
A little polish would go a long way to making him a character with a larger skillcap and much more approachable to play.

 

[Shadic]

I'd like to see a variant that allows him to throw downward while gaining upward momentum.

You can already.

But with a character that presently is underpowered comparatively with the rest of the cast, there has to be something that can be done with it.

I would disagree with that.

 

[monkeyx4]

You can already.


I would disagree with that.

Agree

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Offering him something similar to maybe Lucas's B-air would change his zoning game significantly, and give him a reason to face away in some matchups.

He doesn't need Lucas's Bair. Trust me. Link's bair design is fine as it is; All I think it needs is to be a bit more like Captain Falcon's in terms of the first hit KB and hit duration.(Maybe increase window for SH bair > DJ but that's just me) It already has a good design, it just needs to be better at what it does.

 

[SpiderMad]

.(Maybe increase window for SH bair > DJ but that's just me)

Yo, oh no you didn't. You know how much harder it is to do it with Squirtle with his 1 frame window? A ****ing lot

 

[Problem2]

Link's bair is awesome. You can cross up shields with it easier than with nair. They have to follow which side you land on and if you decide to land or jump out of it.

 

[WeenusChu]

I know what I said obviously sounds controversial and maybe even like an attack on Link.
But my perspective on this game makes this matter pretty clear cut to me.

Addressing D-Bombglide: Yes, my mistake. After playing around with it I was able to consistently D-Bombglide.
So that's pretty great.

Link's B-Air: Maybe Naija said it best here. It's got a good function, but it is particularly weak in doing what it does.
It's ability to serve as a combo link is determined so heavily by circumstance that it is rarely a good option over N-air.

Link's status in comparison to the rest of the cast: Project M, like Melee, is a game where mobility comes above all else.
Mobility isn't decided purely by move speed, or the length of a wavedash.
It's made up in frames. The less frames a character dedicates to any singular option, the more time they have to position and react.
Link's aerials are all very committal with the exception of N-air, which has become his bread and butter for that reason.
The same could be said of his tilts and his jab.
You can have all the techskill, matchup knowledge, and read/punish game in the world. But it doesn't matter if you're not where you need to be.

There is no way you could sanely say to yourself,
"Link is definitely as fast as Diddy, Lucas, Snake, Sonic, Lucario, Falco, Fox, Jiggs, or Mario."
And I'm sure you're trying to hear that I believe Link can't ever beat any of the better characters.
But what I am really saying is that in terms of mileage to playskill, at the top of the crop, Link will fall behind because of his frame limitations and committal options.

Obviously the better player in any given smash game is going to win 90 to 100% of the time.
But the way that Link presently is, he is just too slow.

I'm not going to continue to debate this.
And I'm sorry if you can't glean any information in it and see fit only to discredit it. That's fine.
I'm just an advocate for heavy Link buffs.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

Honestly, I think Link is fine. He has run speed that seems as fast as Falco's with solid mid ranged normals. His specials are really solid for annoying the opponent at far ranges and up-b is a good get of me move and OOS option. The only things i could ask for would be to lower the landing lag on a SH arrow so that it has more use as a spacing tool; maybe just enough so to DJ and Waveland, Increasing wavedash distance for another way of retreating, and to change bair. Maybe what Naija said, better connection with both hits and increasing the window for DJ / Waveland.

 

[leelue]

Link's aerials are all very committal with the exception of N-air, which has become his bread and butter for that reason.

The same could be said of his tilts and his jab.

Bair also?
and his jab is pretty good too

 

[Problem2]

Link can pull forward or backwards or fastfall while using arrows in the air (think Falco/Fox laser control).
As mentioned already, you CAN AG upwards and Toss down.

f-air, jab, n-air, b-air, and tossing your bombs are not committal. So is a spaced z-air. The new tilts are still slightly committal, but they're not bad when spaced. And the boomerang at a distance is now safe to throw out. Link has plenty of tools for his neutral game that don't require hard reads.

It sounds to me like you don't understand this character and the way he is played.

Link's design, his niche, is that he has lots of moves with hella active frames. Even his signature projectile, the boomerang, floats out there with a hitbox to zone his opponent. You're supposed to use those moves that stick out to control space and force your opponent in corners where they're easier to read. Yes, Link has several moves that are very committal (up-b, d-air, f-smash, possibly u-air depending on where you draw the line on "committal"). That's why you don't use them in the neutral game except for when you have a read. But Link is not supposed to be very close in the neutral game in the first place. You should be spacing so that your opponent sits where all of your projectiles can either hit where he is or where he can be. With the combination of projectiles and/or while you have momentum is when you use all the "committal" moves.

EDIT: I kind of nitpicked WennusChu's "committal" argument too much. I still agree that his lack of mobility is an issue. Also, when writing my argument, I forgot that crouch cancelling was a thing, which reduces Link's options by a LOT.

 

[iffy525]

I wish his (Hylian) shield was more useful. Like if it would still block projectiles while walking.

 

[Ace55]

Megaton hammer, bomb arrows and whatever that ball and chain thing from Twilight Princess was.

Also when he dies: he gets regenerated by a fairy in his bottle.

 

[Problem2]

I wish his (Hylian) shield was more useful. Like if it would still block projectiles while walking.

.. Have you tried walking with Link? you might be surprised.

 

[iffy525]

.. Have you tried walking with Link? you might be surprised.

Yeah lol I haven't really played PM much. But today I did, and well yeah I learned that it had been implemented.

 

[Dakpo]

link could really use better players

I died

 

[Xenozoa425]

His shield stops PK flash dead in its tracks

js

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

Why weren't the dair and uair hitboxes changed?
When you compare Link's Dair to stuff like Ganon Dair and Mario Dair, the hitboxes visually don't make sense.
Also, Uair's hitboxes still don't cover the tip of the sword. I'm just wondering why not, since Marth's Usmash hitboxes got that treatment despite being one of his least used moves.

 

[SpiderMad]

Why weren't the dair and uair hitboxes changed?
.

You SURE they weren't? Open up that Brawlbox muchacho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtu1Od4yPW4

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

No, I'm certain that they weren't changed.
Utilt, Usmash, Fsmash2, and Fair second hit were all fixed, though.