What could Link benefit from?

[Fortress]

Even though you don't think it has any uses I know what i could use that would benefit link. How is giving link more options bad?

The thing about it is that there's no practical application or benefit Link could receive from being able to shoot arrows up into the air to 'rain down' on people like you described. His bow would take too long to charge to get them high enough, opponents could easily dodge them, and a hit wouldn't be as rewarding as with, say, Snake's Up-Smash or Ivy's Down-Special. You'd get some minor damage and some hitstun, but it'd be way too difficult to pull off consistently. Plus, Link not having any options from a charging bow leaves him pretty open.

Regarding his bombs that would help link a lot allowing him keep space especially facing sonic and falcon and other rush down characters who try to get link inside. Link is a character all about mix ups and having another way of putting bombs on the ground is not bad at all, its giving him different ways in different situations to do what you want.

That's totally fair, and I agree. I'm all for Link having more options with his bombs. Using them for more would be nice, as they do excellent amounts of damage with some nice knockback, and being able to use them to prevent approaches could be nice (though, he's got a killer Up Special that works for that, too).

 

[Fortress]

You can throw your bomb at the back of your rang to bounce it around.

Oh, you can do that? I hadn't really thought about throwing the bomb at the boomerang; I'd always tried it the other way around. I'll have to practice with that, then.

 

[monkeyx4]

Buts whats wrong with having different options of doing things.

lol he planted bombs on n64 without jumping if im right

 

[Fortress]

Buts whats wrong with having different options of doing things.

lol he planted bombs on n64 without jumping if im right

It's not that it's wrong to have more options, it's just the fact that it'd be a crap option that he'd get nothing out of. He just doesn't need it. Something Link needs (if anything at all) from Bow would be an option that has nothing to do with the attack itself; like jumping out of a charging shot, or shielding from one. Even being able to use his grab from a charging bow to fake people out would be something. The bow in itself as an attack is perfectly fine.

Hey, Hylian, do you think Link's D-Air double-bounce (when he connects with a shield) is fine as is as a punishment for a missed D-Air, or could the removal of that bounce to speed up his landing improve him at all? I always felt kind of dead in the water if I connected a D-air with a shield as Link, as I'd do that bouncing thing until I was out of the animation for D-air. I guess it makes sense for him to hit twice when you connect the hit, so the punishment makes sense. Disregard that, it was just a thought.

 

[monkeyx4]

Lol I'm talking about angling the arrow not upward.
scratch what i said regarding raining arrows

 

[Fortress]

Lol I'm talking about angling the arrow not upward.
scratch what i said regarding raining arrows

Why? He's got his boomerang, that does the job of getting angled hits in just fine. It doesn't push people back like Link's arrows do, but if you were angling an arrow upward anyway, it'd just push an opponent up and back, which could only help them out, getting a vertical boost that is.

I'm not trying to poo on all of your suggestions just for the sake of doing it, but Link's already got tools that do what angled arrows would, for the most part, accomplish.

 

[monkeyx4]

So your sayin link doesn't benefit from having another way of planting bomb? That's like saying snake doesn't need to be able drop nades on the ground.

And have an opinion to shield while charging a arrow? You shouldn't be that close charging an arrow in the first place.

 

[monkeyx4]

Why? He's got his boomerang, that does the job of getting angled hits in just fine. It doesn't push people back like Link's arrows do, but if you were angling an arrow upward anyway, it'd just push an opponent up and back, which could only help them out, getting a vertical boost that is.

I'm not trying to poo on all of your suggestions just for the sake of doing it, but Link's already got tools that do what angled arrows would, for the most part, accomplish.

it's a discussion thread not everyone going to agree on everyone idea idc you disagree

 

[Fortress]

So your sayin link doesn't benefit from having another way of planting bomb? That's like saying snake doesn't need to be able drop nades on the ground.

And have an opinion to shield while charging a arrow? You shouldn't be that close charging an arrow in the first place.

No. No, no, no, no, and no. Read back, I'm all for Link being able to do more with his bombs. The majority of my suggestions are for having more options with his bombs. I'm all for the bombs, I love the bombs. The bow is what I see as being fine as it is.

Have you ever had somebody run up to you while charging an arrow? It's not about being in close and trying to use the bow, it's about somebody closing the distance while you're charging it, ala four-player games, or team battles. Being able to shield, jump, grab, or anything out of it would be nice because of how long it takes for Link to be back to a ready position from the ground with the bow, if you're not short-hop firing it.

 

[Hylian]

Link has all the options in the world with his bombs you guys just don't know how/aren't good at them >_>. You can break someones shield with a bomb.

 

[Fortress]

Hate to double-post again, but, one thing that comes to mind when I think of Link's aerial game, is a tipped U-Air. Is there anything special that can be done with that and made more rewarding? I hardly ever use his U-Air (I don't know if anybody here does or not, I just never found my groove with it), mostly because I feel getting wall kills is easier than a ceiling kill with Link. What if a tipped U-Air had a sweetspot at the start of the move that just had higher knockback or something; like the opposite of TLink's?

Eh, I feel like that's kind of too boring and 'samey' as TLink though. And U-Air is a powerful enough attack, I guess.

 

[Fortress]

Link has all the options in the world with his bombs you guys just don't know how/aren't good at them >_>. You can break someones shield with a bomb.

I know the Bomb Recovery and Bomb Punt, but that's just about it for the bombs with what I know. I tend to use his boomerang a lot more than his bombs, for whatever reason. I like his bombs, but I just haven't used them enough to really know what I can do with them.

I'll take your word for it when you say that there's a lot that you can do with them; I've seen enough of your games to know that you know what you're talking about when it comes to Link.

 

[monkeyx4]

So ate you agreeing with link having another way dropping bombs? like he can just take out a bomb and toss it on the floor like snake or shield drop like snake.


and wouldn't that be broken being able to cancel your arrow charge lmbo

 

[Xenozoa425]

Use more bombs man, seriously. AGT them for all kinds of crazy angles. Leave 'em on the ground. Toss 'em up high. Hit 'em with Zair or the back of his boomerang. Boomerang is good, but boomerang + bombs is better.

 

[Fortress]

So ate you agreeing with link having another way dropping bombs? like he can just take out a bomb and toss it on the floor like snake or shield drop like snake.


and wouldn't that be broken being able to cancel your arrow charge lmbo

Well, he can already drop a bomb from a short hop, and he's got plenty of options from that alone. The only real thing I wanted with bombs, was to whap them about with the 'rang, but as Hylian pointed out, that's possible (just not in the way I thought it was). The options are there, it's just players like you and I don't know enough to find them yet. Which doesn't surprise me, anyway.

I don't think it'd be broken to cancel out of an arrow charge. If somebody jumps above me onto a platform on the far side of the stage, I'd like to be able to just jump out of my bow instead of having to take the time (however short) to fire it off. It's not something he really needs but could get a small little benefit from.

 

[Fortress]

Use more bombs man, seriously. AGT them for all kinds of crazy angles. Leave 'em on the ground. Toss 'em up high. Hit 'em with Zair or the back of his boomerang. Boomerang is good, but boomerang + bombs is better.

Glide tossing is something I really need to get down. I can sort of do it in that I can do it consistently for Link's bomb recovery, but being able to do crazy stuff like toss down and glide up are things that I can't get a grip on yet. I do the bomb punt just fine with the hookshot, but, yeah, I know the options for the bomb are there. I just need to start using the things more. I've neglected them a lot.

 

[\Apples]

I guess he could cancel the drawing of his bow in the Zelda games, so it's not all that far-fetched.

 

[Hylian]

Hate to double-post again, but, one thing that comes to mind when I think of Link's aerial game, is a tipped U-Air. Is there anything special that can be done with that and made more rewarding? I hardly ever use his U-Air (I don't know if anybody here does or not, I just never found my groove with it), mostly because I feel getting wall kills is easier than a ceiling kill with Link. What if a tipped U-Air had a sweetspot at the start of the move that just had higher knockback or something; like the opposite of TLink's?

Eh, I feel like that's kind of too boring and 'samey' as TLink though. And U-Air is a powerful enough attack, I guess.

Uair is one of links best moves. It combos/juggles very well at low - mid%'s and it does have a strong hitbox when it first comes out that is timing based not spacing based that will kill at high %s.

 

[Sarix]

I agree with Hylian that bombs have enough options and applications. They give Link an air dash basically and just simple throw and catch off a shield bounce tricks are a lot compared to most of the cast. I actually use them in my approach more than the boomerang since I can get a mix-up off of the opponent shielding it.

If you like being really tricky you can use bombs as item bait that you can punish when the opponent tries to pick it up. I still consider bombs Link's best projectile because items give TONS of options. If you guys want to get more technical with bombs something I've done is watch how Peach players use turnips and find ways to apply that. I actually play Peach as a secondary so quite a bit transfers between her and Link with my item play.

I have not seen someone destroy a shield with a bomb yet though, you'll have to post a video of this to show it's done Hylian because that is interesting. I've gotten some bogus lockdown on shields with bombs but never have I destroyed one.

I also retract my opinion on the arrows, I've found plenty of ways to set up tick throws, zone, and enhance my shield pressure with them in tandem with the rest of Link's kit.

 

[Hylian]

I didn't get it recorded but(prepare to have your mind blown):

Throw bomb at shield while right in front of them -> Instant throw the bounce -> Instant throw the bounce -> Up-b, bomb will fall into your up b and when this happens you up shoots the bomb at them and since your upb hit their shield and put them into shield lag and pushed them back some it breaks their shield. I've done this twice >_>.

 

[Fortress]

I agree with Hylian that bombs have enough options and applications. They give Link an air dash basically and just simple throw and catch off a shield bounce tricks are a lot compared to most of the cast. I actually use them in my approach more than the boomerang since I can get a mix-up off of the opponent shielding it.

If you like being really tricky you can use bombs as item bait that you can punish when the opponent tries to pick it up. I still consider bombs Link's best projectile because items give TONS of options. If you guys want to get more technical with bombs something I've done is watch how Peach players use turnips and find ways to apply that. I actually play Peach as a secondary so quite a bit transfers between her and Link with my item play.

I have not seen someone destroy a shield with a bomb yet though, you'll have to post a video of this to show it's done Hylian because that is interesting. I've gotten some bogus lockdown on shields with bombs but never have I destroyed one.

I also retract my opinion on the arrows, I've found plenty of ways to set up tick throws, zone, and enhance my shield pressure with them in tandem with the rest of Link's kit.

I had meant to ask earlier if playing a character like Peach in training mode could help me with Link's glide tossing game, seeing as her projectiles don't, you know, explode. I've seen plenty of players grab the bombs out of an opponent's shield bouncing them, Hylian being one of them, so I can see exactly what you mean when you say Link's bombs are a 'safer' approach than Link's 'rang, as you can't pick that up if it's bounced back at you. I lay bombs out a lot on ledges to hamper recovery attempts, but I haven't seen anybody besides a bot get baited by a ticking bomb.

Uair is one of links best moves. It combos/juggles very well at low - mid%'s and it does have a strong hitbox when it first comes out that is timing based not spacing based that will kill at high %s.

I probably just don't use it nearly enough as I need to then, if I didn't know about the hitbox timing. For some reason, I have a harder time L-cancelling an U-Air than a D-air. In your time as Link, Hylian and Sarix, is there a reason for that? I'm understanding that it's not in the moves themselves, but my timing, but did either of you have a harder time cancelling that than Link's D-Air?

 

[Xenozoa425]

Also nothing feels better than consecutive offstage arrow gimps like a military marksman.

 

[Sarix]

The idea of it already blew my mind.

I will have to try that. First I have to get better at my instant throwing lol. I can do Instant AGTs while recovering or edgeguarding but I haven't attempted anything similar on stage yet. Lately I've been doing more with bombs and AGT mobility to give Link more dynamic zoning, test approaches, and trap set ups.

Then again I still have to work on my Bomb Punting, it's one of the only Bomb Tricks I can't do that I know of.

 

[Fortress]

The idea of it already blew my mind.

I will have to try that. First I have to get better at my instant throwing lol. I can do Instant AGTs while recovering or edgeguarding but I haven't attempted anything similar on stage yet. Lately I've been doing more with bombs and AGT mobility to give Link more dynamic zoning, test approaches, and trap set ups.

Then again I still have to work on my Bomb Punting, it's one of the only Bomb Tricks I can't do that I know of.

Bomb punting is (I assume, since I can't do AGT) much easier to pick up than glide tossing, in my opinion. Just shorthop, drop the bomb with Z while moving back ever so slightly, and hit Z again to nail it with the clawshot. It's fun.

 

[Sarix]

I had meant to ask earlier if playing a character like Peach in training mode could help me with Link's glide tossing game, seeing as her projectiles don't, you know, explode. I've seen plenty of players grab the bombs out of an opponent's shield bouncing them, Hylian being one of them, so I can see exactly what you mean when you say Link's bombs are a 'safer' approach than Link's 'rang, as you can't pick that up if it's bounced back at you. I lay bombs out a lot on ledges to hamper recovery attempts, but I haven't seen anybody besides a bot get baited by a ticking bomb.

Peach is definitely a great character to practice your item game with since turnips don't backfire.

I meant to say you have a lot more options from a bomb approach than a boomerang approach because items have inherently quadratic uses. The reason to lay bombs is to either save yourself pluck time, create an item bait trap, or use it as a method of on stage control with other tools. I would ask Hylian about other Bomb Tricks since I some but I use a more even blend of all 3 projectiles for my trap/pressure oriented zoning play style while he uses a lot more bomb pressure and mix-ups for a more rushdown oriented play style.

I probably just don't use it nearly enough as I need to then, if I didn't know about the hitbox timing. For some reason, I have a harder time L-cancelling an U-Air than a D-air. In your time as Link, Hylian and Sarix, is there a reason for that? I'm understanding that it's not in the moves themselves, but my timing, but did either of you have a harder time cancelling that than Link's D-Air?

I really can't say on why you're having trouble with that outside of not using it much. I C-stick my directional aerials to make it easier to SHFFL so I don't have too much trouble with the L-Cancel unless my hands are cold. (Raynaud's Phenomenon)

Hylian would be better to ask since he is a much more experienced player than I am with Link and he also has access to information I don't have.

 

[Hylian]

I have no problem L-cancelling any of his moves, beats me.

 

[Fortress]

Peach is definitely a great character to practice your item game with since turnips don't backfire.

I meant to say you have a lot more options from a bomb approach than a boomerang approach because items have inherently quadratic uses. The reason to lay bombs is to either save yourself pluck time, create an item bait trap, or use it as a method of on stage control with other tools. I would ask Hylian about other Bomb Tricks since I some but I use a more even blend of all 3 projectiles for my trap/pressure oriented zoning play style while he uses a lot more bomb pressure and mix-ups for a more rushdown oriented play style.

I play a more pressuring play style, myself, but I use the boomerang for most of it as opposed to the bombs (mostly in part because I can't use them as well as I need to). Personally, I like a dashing attack into an up tilt into Bair into 'Rang into Nair/Bair or something like that, but the Boomerang gets peppered in a lot.

On that note, I'd loooooooove it if Link's Bair turned him around after use so that you could nail somebody with the 'rang and continue on.

I really can't say on why you're having trouble with that outside of not using it much. I C-stick my directional aerials to make it easier to SHFFL so I don't have too much trouble with the L-Cancel unless my hands are cold. (Raynaud's Phenomenon)

Hylian would be better to ask since he is a much more experienced player than I am with Link and he also has access to information I don't have.

I started using the C-Stick a long time back, it's definitely better because you don't accidentally fast fall or move out of what you're trying to do. And I get the same thing going on when I'm cold, I just can't play right.

I'll have to start playing a little Peach in my downtime to pick up some glide tossing. It's a skill that I really just don't have, and would like to take advantage of.

I have no problem L-cancelling any of his moves, beats me.

It's just his U-Air, for some really, really weird reason. I do it on D-airs, B-airs, and occasionally a N-air (is there a huge benefit to that, I feel like the Nair doesn't have much ending or landing lag at all), but I tend to just whiff the timing on the U-Air with Link.

 

[Sarix]

I play a more pressuring play style, myself, but I use the boomerang for most of it as opposed to the bombs (mostly in part because I can't use them as well as I need to). Personally, I like a dashing attack into an up tilt into Bair into 'Rang into Nair/Bair or something like that, but the Boomerang gets peppered in a lot.

On that note, I'd loooooooove it if Link's Bair turned him around after use so that you could nail somebody with the 'rang and continue on.

That's easy, just use a B reversal on the boomerang after Bair and problem solved. I prefer DACUS over dash attack since it gives more sudden movement and is AMAZING combo filler. There are several options out of a DACUS mid combo, especially at lower pecentages. I just got down the Bomb Punt and have found a lot of silly zoning application for it along with the highly situational double punt.

I started using the C-Stick a long time back, it's definitely better because you don't accidentally fast fall or move out of what you're trying to do. And I get the same thing going on when I'm cold, I just can't play right.

I'll have to start playing a little Peach in my downtime to pick up some glide tossing. It's a skill that I really just don't have, and would like to take advantage of.

Well I meant with Raynaud's Phenomenon instead of just slow execution my hands start to feel like they are getting bee stings or Charlie Horses when they get cold.

Peach is a fun character imo. She gets away with a lot and it's really easy to practice item play and item pressure with her to do shenanigans like throwing your turnip and WD catching it to throw it again. Overall she's an excellent character to practice item-based zoning with.

It's just his U-Air, for some really, really weird reason. I do it on D-airs, B-airs, and occasionally a N-air (is there a huge benefit to that, I feel like the Nair doesn't have much ending or landing lag at all), but I tend to just whiff the timing on the U-Air with Link.

I typically use Uair as a combo ender since while it juggles well I just prefer anti-air combos.

L-cancel Nair is actually really good, it opens up even more options for how flexible Link's Nair is. It comes out fast (frame 4) and it has only a 7 frame recovery with L-Canceling so it can be used to air-to-air battles/combos/mix-ups/quick spacing/etc.

 

[Fortress]

That's easy, just use a B reversal on the boomerang after Bair and problem solved. I prefer DACUS over dash attack since it gives more sudden movement and is AMAZING combo filler. There are several options out of a DACUS mid combo, especially at lower pecentages. I just got down the Bomb Punt and have found a lot of silly zoning application for it along with the highly situational double punt.

Maybe I'm already doing that reversal thing, but just never knew that it had a name. Is the B reversal when you flick the stick the opposite way while you start the special, and you're suddenly doing it the other direction? Because I do that with Link's bow and Mario's fireballs and cape all of the time.

I didn't even know double punting was a thing. That, I have to try. DACUS is something I tried once and told my roommate about so that he could try to improve his Snake main, but I didn't know Link made huge use of it. I can see how that help him, since he's got a killer U-Smash. I was never able to get the DACUS down after trying it for hours on end one night. It's just one of those things that didn't click. Wavedashing was kind of the same, but I drilled myself with Weegee on Battlefield and got that down pat. And, yeah, the Bomb Punt is silly. I love it. Bombs fly lower and slightly straighter/further with it, is what I feel like I found out when I started using it.

I typically use Uair as a combo ender since while it juggles well I just prefer anti-air combos.

L-cancel Nair is actually really good, it opens up even more options for how flexible Link's Nair is. It comes out fast (frame 4) and it has only a 7 frame recovery with L-Canceling so it can be used to air-to-air battles/combos/mix-ups/quick spacing/etc.

I never thought to L-Cancel Link's Nair since I just kind of assumed it hit quickly and landed quickly, but it couldn't hurt to start doing it. As for the Uair, I just avoided it in the past because of the difficulty I had L-Cancelling it, for whatever reason, and stuck with Link's Nair and SHFFL'd Fairs to finish the job.

 

[Sarix]

I didn't even know double punting was a thing. That, I have to try. DACUS is something I tried once and told my roommate about so that he could try to improve his Snake main, but I didn't know Link made huge use of it. I can see how that help him, since he's got a killer U-Smash. I was never able to get the DACUS down after trying it for hours on end one night. It's just one of those things that didn't click. Wavedashing was kind of the same, but I drilled myself with Weegee on Battlefield and got that down pat. And, yeah, the Bomb Punt is silly. I love it. Bombs fly lower and slightly straighter/further with it, is what I feel like I found out when I started using it.

Double punting really isn't a thing, it's just something I found Link could do while goofing around in training mode. You basically plant a bomb then behind it Z drop another bomb so that it would land next to it and Zair. This should cause the falling bomb to bounce normally and the planted bomb to slide a nice distance. I already know I'm going to jot down zoning formations in my Link notes later on Bomb Punt.

The way I input DACUS is similar to how Sheik players do it in that I set R to attack. I input a quarter circle from left or right to up and hold then press down on the C-stick quickly followed by holding R. The motion in arcade notation would be 47 [8]/69 [8] > C-stick > R. It takes quite a bit of practice but I find this method helps me not only because I play GG and BB but because it gives me a more flowing motion to work with. DACUS is great for Link because not only does it give him a fast movement option that covers good distance, but it can be applied to make normals that you normally can't follow-up or against certain characters combo-able. i.e. F-throw > DACUS on floaties.

 

[Viceversa96]

All of that stuff is well and good but honestly they just need to fix his hit bubbles... I have discussed this before and don't care to reiterate soooo... Behold.

This is just one hilarious example... This is why every utilt in the game goes through this move. I would encourage everyone in this thread to visit the link hitbubbles and frame data thread on the main PM Link section.

That hitbox is atrocious

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I think Link is in a pretty good place at the moment. Don't expect too many big changes again like from 2.1 -> 2.5 -> 2.6. Going to fix some bugs etc and maybe some very small balance changes but overall he's looking good to me and most people in the PMBR.

I hope none of these "balance changes" end up being nerfs of any sort, I'm with you Hylian in that I think he's pretty good right now, but the last thing he needs is any sort of nerf, he could use a small buff or 2 if anything, those up-air and down-air hotboxes are horrendous for example, if his up-air had hitboxes that actually matched his sword, I think he might be able to deal with Falco's down-air pressure on stage

Oh, you can do that? I hadn't really thought about throwing the bomb at the boomerang; I'd always tried it the other way around. I'll have to practice with that, then.

Stuff like that is mostly for flash, it doesn't have much of a practical use

 

[Hylian]

I wouldn't expect any nerfs.

Also, I need to show you guys the triple punt .

 

[Sarix]

What I called the double punt should actually be called the Punt & Slide. I actually have been playing around with bomb sliding, it's hilarious with platforms or just pushing a bomb about to explode towards the opponent.

I've also been experimenting with arrows out of WD. It makes for a nice spacing & pressure tactic, and it's probably the closest thing to being able to safely rapid fire a couple of arrows.

Edit: I'm actually also trying to make a compendium of Link ATs.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

All of those moves have relatively short hit durations, and so their hitboxes can and should "make sense." Those moves, while perhaps not requiring a particularly high level of finesse in terms of spacing, do require significantly higher skill to time properly. Link's Dair and Uair, contrarily, not only linger significantly, are sword attacks, which even with relatively less disjoint than the rest of his moveset, still give Link more disjoint than over 90% of the rest of the cast enjoys on any of their moves, even the most egregious ones.

Wait, so you're willing to nerf Link's N-air slightly for sake of polish, but you're not willing to adjust Link's hitboxes on U-air and D-air so they actually match the length of the sword?

Are you serious?

 

[Strong Badam]

Nice job completely ignoring my ENTIRE post.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Nice job completely ignoring my ENTIRE post.

What did I miss?

You were defending leaving Link's U-air and D-air hitboxes as they are right?

 

[Strong Badam]

yes

i very clearly explained to you why link's uair/dair hitboxes were not changed to "actually match the length of the sword"

after which you went into a tirade about how we made link's nair make sense but won't make uair/dair make less sense.

 

[Fortress]

yes

i very clearly explained to you why link's uair/dair hitboxes were not changed to "actually match the length of the sword"

after which you went into a tirade about how we made link's nair make sense but won't make uair/dair make less sense.

I'm not on either side in this argument, but just wanting to see if I understood something, myself. With the Nair, your take on it is that since it's a lingering attack, that the hitbox on it should be much cleaner and consistent from start-to-finish, where Link's Dair and Nair, while disjointed and, well, sort of ugly, are more of a precise timing thing in their uses and as such don't need to worry about being too 'pretty' or 'clean'? I think I'm misunderstanding what you were trying to say, is all.

 

[Rarik]

NaijaboyIrin said: ↑

Why weren't the dair and uair hitboxes changed?​

When you compare Link's Dair to stuff like Ganon Dair and Mario Dair, the hitboxes visually don't make sense. ​

Also, Uair's hitboxes still don't cover the tip of the sword. I'm just wondering why not, since Marth's Usmash hitboxes got that treatment despite being one of his least used moves.​

Strong Bad was replying to this post. So not about Nair at all until Sanity brought it up. Ganon Dair, Mario Dair, and Marth USmash, are the more precise ones that should make sense.