What character has the highest potential when the game is played perfectly?

[JUDGE]

all top tier characters

 

[llBluBll]

I think Snake would be the best character because he could cg every charakter with his down throw when played frame perfectly.

 

[kaak]

omg so many noob post's ...


but i argee with pit

 

[: Agent Smith :]

When I use Metaknight, I simply use the infinite cape "glitch" to transport all over the stage. Once my opponent is completely confused, I then warp out of it and attack. It's very simple, really. I'm surprised more of you humans don't use this technique.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

All Pit needs is that one hit and then just to play frame perfect defense all day. You don't even NEED ledge games, because Marth doesn't have any 1 frame moves (and thus every attack he does will be powershielded on reaction). Suprisingly, frame perfect play has NO mindgames because powershielding only requires that you have a single frame of anticipation (i.e., requires that the other move is not instantaneous).

Pit will NEVER get to high damage because Marth has no means of getting him there. EVERY match in perfect play will be time out because there are no reliable means of killing. Unless your character has an infinite that can be landed against an opponent who has 1 frame reaction time, THERE WILL BE NO KILLS. The only combos in the game will be those that are SDI proof i.e throw->hit (since throws cannot be SDI'd).

Also, you far underestimate the power of SDI my friend. The correct SDI for getting the absolute most horizontal distance is:
up and away, away, down and away, away, up and away (since the game will not let you SDI in the same direction on consecutive frames). The majority of moves have 4 frames+ of hitlag, meaning the amount of distance traveled in such time will be MASSIVE.

Also, you forgot the most vital detail of the arrow loops. The SPACING of the arrows. The arrows would follow directly behind each other, making it only possible to powershield THE FIRST ONE. THe second one would HAVE to be shielded or spotdodged, and if you shielded, Pit got a free grab. The third arrow is for SPECIFICALLY if you spotdodge, or even jump and airdodge, as Pit can aim the arrows freely (that and airdodges have enough lag for Pit to catch even after his grab lag is over). "Moving out of the trajectory of the arrows" just puts you in the air, which is a disadvantageous position in perfect play due to your 2 frames of default landing lag that you have no control over. The next time you land, YOU WILL BE HIT. Even if you attack through me, at such low percentages that means I SDI a couple of times and hit you back. We'd repeat this until my arrows come back around and hit you, ultimately giving me my damage lead to go powershield camp for 8 minutes.


Firing the actual arrows would be a simple task. Pit can mearly fire two at the very begining of the match (the first and third of the required setup), and the third by ledge camping, using the arrows as a shield for his return.

first of all, there is mindgames, u mindgame them into attacking u wen they think their safe then bam power shieldgrab, it only takes oneframe to powershield. second im not arguing necessarily for marth, all i said is a high damage up b is NOT going to work that way smash di isnt as effective as it was in melee, or we'd have bowsers who can survive a falcon punch at 83% damage from the edge of fd with easy... and thats only in regular matches... i have hacks on my wii smash di in brawl is NOT that good although u can cut ur distance to about 1/3 or 1/4 rather than the godly immense amounts that could be done in melee

third of all i NEVER said ANYTHING about powershielding those arrows, but if u jump over them and such, u could land on the stage ledges after doing an arial on pit while out of grab range (above him lol) and get back on stage with a few invincible frames remaining (yes it is possible u can have 2 or 3 i think) by taping back the frame that u connect to the stage and jumping onto the stage which solves the lag problem.

once ur hit once at close range the arrows bcome semi useless u can hit with them but then it just carrys on with the sdi>attack

pits arrows, arent even possible to line up to be single frames apart even in prefect frames becuase the always move at constant speed and u cant move them independantly or itd work that pits arrows will always be parrallel and how ever many frames it took for the next shot to come out apart from each other so u actually could perfect shield them every chance it happens so really, those arent as good here as u think

I think Snake would be the best character because he could cg every charakter with his down throw when played frame perfectly.

lol infinite predictive dthrows, ganon could do this too with gerudo

 

[mcnizzle123]

Prob ike, just because he could perfectly deflect every attack and damage the opponent at the same time. also, he could hit hard and AAEEIITTHHEERR!!!!

 

[Shadow13]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............

if the game is played 100% perfectly, then there would be no mistakes at all, nobody would get hit, and a stock match would last forever

 

[boo-diddly]

When I use Metaknight, I simply use the infinite cape "glitch" to transport all over the stage. Once my opponent is completely confused, I then warp out of it and attack. It's very simple, really. I'm surprised more of you humans don't use this technique.

Well, it's banned competitively, and it makes FFAs boring as hell, so why would anyone use it?

 

[stingers]

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............

if the game is played 100% perfectly, then there would be no mistakes at all, nobody would get hit, and a stock match would last forever

Why do people keep saying this

Why

 

[demonictoonlink]

Prob ike, just because he could perfectly deflect every attack and damage the opponent at the same time. also, he could hit hard and AAEEIITTHHEERR!!!!

Quoted for fail

 

[Dark Sonic]

first of all, there is mindgames, u mindgame them into attacking u wen they think their safe then bam power shieldgrab

Lesson 1 of perfect play. Don't attack unless it's 100% guranteed to land with less reprecusions for landing it than the damage dealt by the attack. Basically, there will be no mindgames, because I will not attack without a guranteed opening. I repeat, I WILL NOT ATTACK UNLESS IT IS SAFE. There is no mindgaming me into thinking it is safe, you're either in lag or you're not.

it only takes oneframe to powershield.

I just said that. In fact, I said it in the very post you quoted.

second im not arguing necessarily for marth, all i said is a high damage up b is NOT going to work that way smash di isnt as effective as it was in melee, or we'd have bowsers who can survive a falcon punch at 83% damage from the edge of fd with easy... and thats only in regular matches... i have hacks on my wii smash di in brawl is NOT that good although u can cut ur distance to about 1/3 or 1/4 rather than the godly immense amounts that could be done in melee

Facepalme
Smash DI does not reduce the damage you're sent, it MOVES YOUR CHARACTER. For significant examples of smash DI, just smash DI a smartbomb over and over and you'll be able to get out with 4 or 5 taps. Ironically, most attacks in brawl have more than 5 frames of hitlag. In otherwords, perfect smash DI on every single frame will move you THAT far, BEFORE you're launched. Then you use normal DI to adjust you trajectory to send you by your opponent. Then you use MOMENTUM CANCELING to your advantage by hitting your opponent while you're passing by them (due to being able to attack almost immediately after being launched in brawl). It's actually a very simple process.

third of all i NEVER said ANYTHING about powershielding those arrows, but if u jump over them and such, u could land on the stage ledges after doing an arial on pit while out of grab range (above him lol)

Powershield the aerial->dash grab (or dash attack if you can't reach them before they grab the ledge) during lag ON REACTION! ALL AERIALS ARE SLOWER THAN 1 FRAME! THERE IS NO MINDGAMING HERE!

and get back on stage with a few invincible frames remaining (yes it is possible u can have 2 or 3 i think) by taping back the frame that u connect to the stage and jumping onto the stage which solves the lag problem.

And then my arrows are still going around (in fact I've shot another one due to the time it takes for you to get on the stage) and we have the same predicament, but wih me having +1 arrows to control perfectly

once ur hit once at close range the arrows bcome semi useless u can hit with them but then it just carrys on with the sdi>attack

I won't get hit. What part of "unless the attack comes out in 1 frame it will be powershielded on pure reaction" don't you get? Any attack you do WILL be powershieled, and I will never willingly attack you (that's what my arrows are for).

pits arrows, arent even possible to line up to be single frames apart even in prefect frames becuase the always move at constant speed and u cant move them independantly or itd work that pits arrows will always be parrallel and how ever many frames it took for the next shot to come out apart from each other so u actually could perfect shield them every chance it happens so really, those arent as good here as u think

Step 1. Shoot a single arrow
Step 2. Loop the arrow and make sure it passes by Pit (EXACTLY by where Pit's arrows shoot from).
Step 3. Fire second arrow dirrectly behind the first arrow as it passes in the desired frame window (dropping a shield takes 9 frames, so having 2 arrows within 10 frames of each other will prevent the opponent from being able to powershield them both. The perfect arrows would be 4 frames appart, as to be 1 frame too far to both be powershielded in the same window)
Step 4. Loop both arrows again like before (they will be following NEARLY identical paths, with no more than 4-5 frames of deviation along the steep curves. You can easily line them up again on straightaways)
Step 5. Fire the third arrow so it is shot *insert opposing character spotdodge invulnerability*+1 frames.

This is a very simple method for getting 3+ arrows to follow the same line at very defined intervals, forming the arrow trap that you blew off as "impossible." This may be beyond HUMAN limits, as you can't feasibly loop the arrow to come back to line up perfectly with Pit's bow again (to make the next arrow follow in the EXACT same path when on a straight line), but with frame perfection and complete knowledge of the frame speed of every move...you can.

lol infinite predictive dthrows, ganon could do this too with gerudo

If it requires prediction then it is not infnite. Only reactionary techs can be infinite. Snake's d-throw is only a reactionary infinite when done on small platforms (where Snake is able to grab in both directions from the center of the platform), but Snake has no guranteed method of forcing his opponent into this position.


Also, you will never land the gerudo as Ganon has no means of forcing an approach (thus he has nothing to punish), and side B is too slow as a stand alone move to ever be landed in perfect play.

What you don't realize is that mindgames simply DO NOT WORK in frame perfect play, as the defense is simply too strong when done perfectly. You will never actually directly land any attacks that are slower than 1 frame, because said attack will be powershielded. And if your attack is not safe ON POWERSHIELD, then you will be punished for it. Thus your attacks MUST either be 1 frame (ZSS and Squirtle's jabs are the only such attacks in the entire game), or MUST have a way to force a situation where you'd land a hit EVEN ON POWERSHIELD.

Since it's quite feasible for someone to stay out of ZSS's and Squitle's jab range for an entire match in perfect play (ledge camping), my argument focuses on the latter, and Pit has brought forth an example of such a situation. It requires a setup, which is the only shaky area, but the rest is true in theory (that's all that matters here, mindgames don't apply when you react in 1 frame and know the counter for each attack).

 

[Shadow13]

being perfect means no mistakes
being hit is a mistake
missing is a mistake
therefore, the game can't be played perfectly

 

[:mad:]

I think there are enough frame traps that not everything can be shielded and/or dodged.

Shadow13.

Read the above.

Shut up.

Then proceed to get out.

 

[Shadow13]

Shadow13.

Read the above.

Shut up.

Then proceed to get out.

i am not talking about game coding
perfect means without flaw
getting hit is a flaw
missing is a flaw
a perfect game is impossible
for example, unless a person does nothing, they can't be perfect, because nobody can do something 100% perfectly

 

[stingers]

oh my god is this what smashboards has come to

 

[:mad:]

I tried to help.

But I'm one of those **** 08'ers.

And I don't like it any more than you do.

 

[stingers]

it's alright you seem intelligent

what with your 5500 posts in 6 months

jesus christ <.<

 

[:mad:]

Nah, it was just way too much time posting in OTL.

I frequent the Brawl Mario boards and lurk Melee Doc boards. But I do get a kick out everyone mentioning my post count and title.

 

[☆_Mutha-Foxin GangstaKirby_☆]

Lesson 1 of perfect play. Don't attack unless it's 100% guranteed to land with less reprecusions for landing it than the damage dealt by the attack. Basically, there will be no mindgames, because I will not attack without a guranteed opening. I repeat, I WILL NOT ATTACK UNLESS IT IS SAFE. There is no mindgaming me into thinking it is safe, you're either in lag or you're not.
I just said that. In fact, I said it in the very post you quoted.

Facepalme
Smash DI does not reduce the damage you're sent, it MOVES YOUR CHARACTER. For significant examples of smash DI, just smash DI a smartbomb over and over and you'll be able to get out with 4 or 5 taps. Ironically, most attacks in brawl have more than 5 frames of hitlag. In otherwords, perfect smash DI on every single frame will move you THAT far, BEFORE you're launched. Then you use normal DI to adjust you trajectory to send you by your opponent. Then you use MOMENTUM CANCELING to your advantage by hitting your opponent while you're passing by them (due to being able to attack almost immediately after being launched in brawl). It's actually a very simple process.
Powershield the aerial->dash grab (or dash attack if you can't reach them before they grab the ledge) during lag ON REACTION! ALL AERIALS ARE SLOWER THAN 1 FRAME! THERE IS NO MINDGAMING HERE!
And then my arrows are still going around (in fact I've shot another one due to the time it takes for you to get on the stage) and we have the same predicament, but wih me having +1 arrows to control perfectly
I won't get hit. What part of "unless the attack comes out in 1 frame it will be powershielded on pure reaction" don't you get? Any attack you do WILL be powershieled, and I will never willingly attack you (that's what my arrows are for).

Step 1. Shoot a single arrow
Step 2. Loop the arrow and make sure it passes by Pit (EXACTLY by where Pit's arrows shoot from).
Step 3. Fire second arrow dirrectly behind the first arrow as it passes in the desired frame window (dropping a shield takes 9 frames, so having 2 arrows within 10 frames of each other will prevent the opponent from being able to powershield them both. The perfect arrows would be 4 frames appart, as to be 1 frame too far to both be powershielded in the same window)
Step 4. Loop both arrows again like before (they will be following NEARLY identical paths, with no more than 4-5 frames of deviation along the steep curves. You can easily line them up again on straightaways)
Step 5. Fire the third arrow so it is shot *insert opposing character spotdodge invulnerability*+1 frames.

This is a very simple method for getting 3+ arrows to follow the same line at very defined intervals, forming the arrow trap that you blew off as "impossible." This may be beyond HUMAN limits, as you can't feasibly loop the arrow to come back to line up perfectly with Pit's bow again (to make the next arrow follow in the EXACT same path when on a straight line), but with frame perfection and complete knowledge of the frame speed of every move...you can.




If it requires prediction then it is not infnite. Only reactionary techs can be infinite. Snake's d-throw is only a reactionary infinite when done on small platforms (where Snake is able to grab in both directions from the center of the platform), but Snake has no guranteed method of forcing his opponent into this position.


Also, you will never land the gerudo as Ganon has no means of forcing an approach (thus he has nothing to punish), and side B is too slow as a stand alone move to ever be landed in perfect play.

What you don't realize is that mindgames simply DO NOT WORK in frame perfect play, as the defense is simply too strong when done perfectly. You will never actually directly land any attacks that are slower than 1 frame, because said attack will be powershielded. And if your attack is not safe ON POWERSHIELD, then you will be punished for it. Thus your attacks MUST either be 1 frame (ZSS and Squirtle's jabs are the only such attacks in the entire game), or MUST have a way to force a situation where you'd land a hit EVEN ON POWERSHIELD.

Since it's quite feasible for someone to stay out of ZSS's and Squitle's jab range for an entire match in perfect play (ledge camping), my argument focuses on the latter, and Pit has brought forth an example of such a situation. It requires a setup, which is the only shaky area, but the rest is true in theory (that's all that matters here, mindgames don't apply when you react in 1 frame and know the counter for each attack).

powershield can take up 4 frames so.... arrows will still get ps'd

the rest of this is so full of ****** that i wont acknowledge, i will say this tho.... maybe u shud reread some of the stuff i said

 

[Dark Sonic]

powershield can take up 4 frames so.... arrows will still get ps'd

Powershielding is 3 frames, not 4 (meaning arrows that are 4 frames apart cannot both be powershielded).

You also said that smash DI was insignificant, but failed to acknowledge that you'd be smash DIing on EVERY FRAME, which would make a very large difference. You're not the only one who's hacked his wii, I repeatedly use the debug pause code to test for frame data as it is. You should try smash DIing 5-6 times in a row some time, it's a pretty big displacement.

You also failed to explain HOW YOU WOULD HIT ME! What part of "I'm not going to attack unless I have enough frame advantage to safely do so" don't you comprehend? I'm not going to EVER approach you with direct attacks. You're not hitting me, and I'm not hitting you, so all that's happening is me setting up arrows whenever I'm even 1 pixel outside of your range of punishment (even if your attack would be a phantom hit, I'm setting up my arrows anyway, since phantom hits don't do damage in this game).

This "mindgame him into thinking it's safe to attack" won't work because I'm not willing to take the risk in perfect play. If I don't have enough frames to reach you with my attack during your lag, then I will not attack. It's as simple as mearly COUNTING.

And you gave ******** examples trying to argue that since smash DI makes little difference in regular gameplay then it will make little difference here. But you failed to realize that this is PERFECT gameplay and NOT regular gameplay. You even used a MELEE example where the hitlag on attacks is smaller on average. In regular gameplay you'd have to practice just to be able to get one smash DI when ANTICIPATING a hit. A single smash DI distance is hardly significant, however in perfect gameplay you will get MORE THAN 4 smash DI's on the vast majority of attacks. Not to mention that these attacks are only landed at zero because after the very first exchange of the match, the person with the percentage lead can then simply camp until time out with nothing for the other player to do (since every approach option takes more than 1 frame and you've given no other examples of perfect approaches).

You're not ever going to mindgame me into thinking it's safe when it's not, simply because I KNOW IT'S NOT THE SAME WAY YOU DO! We're BOTH know exactly how much lag your attack has and exactly how much time it would take to cover the distance, so using that information I can determine if the attack is safe or not. It's very simple, yet you continue to say that you'll somehow make me do something stupid. When you stop factoring in human reaction time (since perfect play assumes that you have instantaneous reaction time) and stop factoring in human error (stop saying that I'll mess up because in perfect play I won't, and instead start looking for strategies that would get me even if I DON'T mess up), then maybe you'll see why mindgames simply don't apply here.

 

[GALE 14]

Mario is a allrounder so i think if you be good with him
is he the best character

 

[Shadow13]

I tried to help.

But I'm one of those **** 08'ers.

And I don't like it any more than you do.

dude, i just mean "perfectly" isn't the word to use

at the games best?
idk who would have the most potential

 

[Xebenkeck]

i am not talking about game coding
perfect means without flaw
getting hit is a flaw
missing is a flaw
a perfect game is impossible
for example, unless a person does nothing, they can't be perfect, because nobody can do something 100% perfectly

For some characters a perfect game is impossible, yes. But some characters have attacks with 1 frame start-up, frame traps, Invincibility frames, etc. and have the potential to have a perfect game because there may be no counter to what they are doing, thus they can hit and not be punished, having your "perfect" game. Just who that is what we are debating over.

Also those who say Mk because of infinate Dimensional Cape, that is wrong, Mk can't dissapear forever because the controller would eventually break from the input, eventually he would come out of it to attack, and that can be punished through SDI,; or even o i don't know a PERFECT SHIELD. Its beatable it just take a long time to do so.

Also to that chess reference a couple pages back, you can win a chess game in three moves without losing a piece. So it is possible to play the perfect chess game.

 

[The Sìrén]

Umm, wow.

Meta friggin' Knight. No argument there.

 

[stingers]

...I'll bite

Care to support that argument

 

[PoisonMist]

if every character was player perfectly without any blemishes, they would all be perfectly equal.

otherwise, they wouldnt be perfect.

quoted for the truth

 

[Dark Sonic]

btw for those who think MK would be good with his infinite dimensional cape....MK would SUCK BALLS in perfect play. IDC is a defensive manuver, not an offensive one. MK is still unable to ever land a hit because he has no frame traps and has no 1 frame attacks. Every move he does will be countered by powershielding on reaction (or spotdodging grabs on reaction for you smartasses). MK also lacks the raw damage per hit needed to pull a percentage lead (don't forget, the opponent will be smash DIing MK's attacks to hit him back again). The most MK can hope for is a tie (by stalling while both players are at zero)...which doesn't solve anything. Why play a character that's incapable of winning?

Theory smash on a completely different level.

 

[mariofanpm12]

why isnt there a video of something like this is my question...?

 

[BurningCrusader777]

I agree 100% with Dark Sonic, and truth be told, I said pretty much exactly what he's saying as soon as I found out that you could loop Pit's arrows. Arrow looping, which is somewhat of a gimmicky, if fairly useful, technique in human level play, becomes a lethal tool in frame perfect play.

At an absolutely perfect level of play, Pit is the only character that can do damage safely. Everything is on reaction, and the only movement limits are the ones placed by the game's frame rates. Mindgames become 100% irrelevant, because everything is reacted to within a 1 frame window anyway.

For added emphasis, a tier list for perfect play:

Viable Tier
Pit

Literally Can't Do Anything Tier
The remaining cast



Though that leaves a strange predicament. Perfect players would seek to play with Pit so that they could actually do something. Yet, with everyone playing as Pit and using the same set-up patterns (presumably), every single match would end in a draw; the best strategy would be to eliminate any threats to your damage %, while keeping your advantages in tact. In a Pit mirror match, this means looping your arrows into your opponent's arrows, while maintaining a lead in arrow numbers. Essentially, an endless loop of two Pits standing on opposite sides of the stage, playing a game of chess using their arrows.

Pit is the best character, yet it doesn't matter at all since no matches would end in any results.

 

[T-block]

Dark Sonic makes this thread an interesting read.

Would you guys please take the time to actually read what he's saying -_-

 

[:mad:]

Dark Sonic makes this thread an interesting read.

Would you guys please take the time to actually read what he's saying -_-

QFT, dude actually put some thought into this topic. He should write a novel on the subject.

 

[Tacel]

Meta Knight, (if user is good enough, Meta Knight seems like he has a force field)
Ness, (great moveset)
Fox, )
Falco, ) - (All Star Fox characters)
Wolf, )
Zero Suit Samus, (Her whip/gun has a long attack range, her gun stuns)
Captain Falcon. (Because)

I believe that every character has the potential to play a perfect game.
It just depends on the person playing as the character.

 

[SmashBrosForce]

I think is:

1 - Fox
2 - Wolf
3 - Marth

MK is one of these characters...

 

[shinyspoon42]

A bigass list

Viable characters

I have compiled a huge list, and posted the characters who are viable and copy pasted those who weren't. Props to dark sonic for the most articulate poster so far.

This is a list of characters who are still usable in perfect play, because they can punish you no matter what. If you find that I was incorrect somewhere, please post so and I will be willing to retract my statement and edit it as is due. Now then, to the list.

NO
YES
NO
YES
NO
NO
YES
NO
YES
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
YES
YES
YES
YES
YES
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
:shiek: NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
YES
NO
NO
NO
NO
YES
:mewtwo: YES



Weak glide toss

There was a recent discovery of a method to weak glide toss so that you would be able to punish no matter what, because the item would hit them if they didn't do anything, if they shielded it you be sliding in for a grab, and if they spotdodged you'd slide in with an attack to punish, rolling is punishable, so there only option is to gtfo of the glide toss by jumping (which is punishable upon landing) and running away, and eventually they run out of stage. If they get on the ledge, you just throw the item at them. I think this makes anyone with a spawnable item who can use this viable in perfect play. I think diddy can do it, and so can R.O.B and peach and zss.



List of characters

MK IS NOT VIABLE! he has no frame 1 attacks, and everyone who says infinite dimensional cape deserves to be punched in the face by Mr. T, because the cape lets you disappear, but its also banned from tournaments and DOES NO DAMAGE. It doesn't attack on frame 1, and thus is punishable. In fact, its a horrible idea unless you are stalling, because you are doomed to being punished unless you do it forever, and thus unless you are leading already you will lose, and MK can never get the lead because he has no option with which to hit his opponent.

Snake is viable, because he has projectiles that operate outside his control, that he can use. If he has two grenades laying just outside your range, a nikata falling from the sky and he is waiting to punish, shield the grenades and he can come in and grab you, shield the nikata and he grabs you. Spot dodge the grenade and the nikata falls down to punish, and dodge that and the other grenade punishes, as well as snake coming in to punish the spotdodge. The grenades explode so you can't run away on the platform, and if you jump he punishes landing lag. If he grabs you he can infinite tech chase, and the set-up allows him to get a grab.

Falco is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

D3 is viable, because his waddle dees and doos can attack you, and if you powershield he can punish and grab you, and then you get chaingrabbed to a guaranteed hit for the lulz. If you try to kill his dees and doos, he can punish the attacks. If you run away, the dees and doos chase across the stage. If you jump, he punishes landing lag with a grab.

G&W is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Marth is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Diddy is viable, because he can do the weak glide toss punish set-up I explained.

Wario is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

R.O.B is viable, because he can do the weak glide toss punish set-up I explained.

Lucario is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Olimar is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Pikachu is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Kirby is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Donkey Kong is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Ice Climbers are viable, because they can desynch and attack and if you punish one the other will punish you, and can have one attack, then have the other punish your reaction, if you shield the other grabs you, if you roll the other grabs you, if you run away the other chases and starts the set-up again till you hit the edge of the stage, if you jump they punish your landing lag with a grab, and so they have a set-up that allows them to pull off a grab, and they of course have the notorious IC chaingrab, and can chaingrab till at kill percents, then simply smash out of grab.

Zero suit samus is viable, because she can do the weak glide toss set-up with her armor, and she is also one of the two only people in the entire game with a frame one attack, her and squirtles jabs. She can just jab you, and you won't be able to react at all because it comes out on frame 1. Its inescapable, because she just follows across the stage, ready to jab, and when you run into an edge she will jab you, when you jump she will punish landing lag, she jabs faster then you can shield, so you won't be able to pull off a powershield, and you can't roll as she punishes that, and spotdodging gets punished.

Tink is viable, he can't do the weak glide toss, but he can still get you. He can pull out a bomb then jump, throw a boomerang past you and then throw the bomb so you can't punish his landing lag, and then the boomerang is coming back and if you powershield Tink is ready to punish, if you roll Tink punishes, if you spotdodge Tink punishes, and if you jump over Tink can punish your landing lag.

Pit is viable, because he can loop arrows perfectly so that it is inescapable. Read darksonics posts, he explains it in detail.

Peach is viable, because she can do the weak glide toss set-up I explained.

Wolf is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Luigi is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Zelda is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Bowser is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Fox is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Sheik is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Ike is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Mario is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Lucas is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Ness is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Samus is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Sonic is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Pokemon Trainer is viable, because squirtles jab comes out on frame 1. It works in the same manner as ZSS's.

Yoshi is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Link is not viable, his boomerang does no damage upon return and he can't weak glide toss his bombs.

Jigglypuff is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Ganondorf is not viable, no frame 1 attacks and no projectiles that work in a manner that allow him to punish you.

Captain Falcon is viable, Falcon Punch breaks your powershield, its hitbox lasts longer then the spotdodge, and reaches across the entire stage. He has super armor while he does it as well, meaning its guaranteed. (I'm joking, in case you haven't caught on)

Mewtwo is viable, he can use telekenisis to disconnect the heart valves from the heart (This only doesn't work on Snake, because he has no heart)



K, sorry for long post. Hope this helps the debate, and stimulates it. 10/37 characters are still usable in frame perfect play, which is much more then the so far thought of 1 character being pit. Ranking these characters should be made as to who has a guaranteed manner of starting these set-ups, as some are trickier like snakes or pits, while others are easier like D3's. Some of these work even in less then perfect play, and I'd encourage players to try them out. They may not be super high damage wracking, and might be ridiculously hard, but your opponent is unable to counter these things, no matter how perfect they play. It only matters how perfect you play, so start turning these tricks into a reality.

Feel free to discuss all points, I'm sure I made tons of mistakes that you can point out and poke holes in. I'd be impressed if you can find a way for someone outside my elite 10 that can work in perfect play, and I'd be willing to add them and mention you when I edit it.

 

[shinyspoon42]

oops, I posted and I'm a newer account... ****, sorry guys.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

The following assumes that the player is playing as Pit:

Weak glide toss doesn't seem viable due to powershield to either spotdodge or grab on reaction. Remember, there are no mix-ups, so you're actually putting yourself in danger by using a weak Glide Toss.

Toon Link's set-up doesn't seem viable either, since you can powershield, stay in shield (or drop it if he does nothing), and then react to his action. Not to mention, if TL isn't performing another action while the boomerang comes back to him, he goes through the catch animation which leaves him wide open for punishment.

ICs seem viable at first, but Nana lags six frames behind Popo, making it impossible for her to powershield. IIRC, damage incurred by Nana is counted by the game, so even if the main climber has no damage, if Nana has even taken a single hit, the IC player loses to a perfect camping game.

Snake shouldn't be able to set up grenades that close, else you could punish the start-up/shield drop time. And if he tries to set them up from afar, he can't punish your movements. Tell me if I'm missing something here.

D3's strategy wouldn't work well either, since Pit's arrows cover his landing lag. His cooldown and startup on the doos/dees are really high for frame perfect play too, so with something to cover your approach (i.e. the arrows), you could punish him or prevent him from doing it in the first place.

This leaves Pit, ZSS, and Squirtle: The arrow loops, and the 1-frame jabs. My question is, how would ZSS and Squirtle safely approach Pit?

 

[_Phloat_]

I doubt a "perfect" player would get the snake thing set up on him...

 

[thesage]

MK can plank...

 

[shinyspoon42]

Weak glide toss doesn't seem viable due to powershield to either spotdodge or grab on reaction. Remember, there are no mix-ups, so you're actually putting yourself in danger by using a weak Glide Toss.

If they powershield the item, you grab them. The reason it has to be a weak toss is so that you are close enough to punish.

Toon Link's set-up doesn't seem viable either, since you can powershield, stay in shield (or drop it if he does nothing), and then react to his action. Not to mention, if TL isn't performing another action while the boomerang comes back to him, he goes through the catch animation which leaves him wide open for punishment.

If they shield, they get grabbed. If they spotdodge, punish w/ an attack, handily canceling the catch as well.

ICs seem viable at first, but Nana lags six frames behind Popo, making it impossible for her to powershield. IIRC, damage incurred by Nana is counted by the game, so even if the main climber has no damage, if Nana has even taken a single hit, the IC player loses to a perfect camping game.

Where in my post did I mention nana ever having to powershield? If you mean that she can't PS approach, it doesn't matter because popo leads and PSs every projectile before it reaches her, and if they attack her Popo can PS and punish.

Snake shouldn't be able to set up grenades that close, else you could punish the start-up/shield drop time. And if he tries to set them up from afar, he can't punish your movements. Tell me if I'm missing something here.

He grenade strips, I guess. Or sets it up while you are on the ledge. It is certainly hard to setup, but I hope a perfect snake knows how.

Sorry for short replies, on Wii.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Pit is simply the best character in the game, but it wouldn't be hard; pit&the arrows need to approach in sync to work, and simply by moving away you wreck the strategy, as then you can simply shield all the arrows, and then Pit is out of arrows to loop. You can simply be near him, and he can't fire more or he gets punished.