What are the most iconic moves for current characters that are being disregarded by Smash?

[Quillion]

People just wanna see their favorite characters do more of what they do in the games. Dassit.

This doesn't have to apply for every single character, but I really don't appreciate you calling it "overcomplicated" or "cluttered" when it's meant to be a bit of love towards that character.

As Jotari said, Smash is a fighting game first and foremost, not a museum of character abilities. The problem I have with much of the Smash 4-and-on characters is that they're not picking and choosing the best abilities to fit into Smash's limitations and instead going "LOOK HOW FAITHFUL TO CANON THIS CHARACTER IS." It just makes the newer characters frustrating to pick up and play unlike the 64-Brawl characters.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

There are definitely characters that try too hard at being faithful to the point where they're not well designed for SSB, but... Mega Man being one of those? Really? Now, not EVERY move on Mega Man had to reference completely different weapons to be a faithful. But at the same time, JUST out of virtue of them being completely different weapons doesn't make Mega Man overcomplicated, considering most aren't anything special. It's not like Ryu where you either tap or hold buttons for completely different attacks for normal moves of all things or anything else that throws SSB's simplicity completely out the window, they're just simple moves. Granted, I can at least see what you mean by "cluttered", but having a slightly "cluttered" moveset thematically doesn't equate to overcomplicated either. Not saying you can't think Mega Man's moveset is a little cluttered, but calling him overcomplicated is just too much. He's no Ryu, he's no Robin, his attacks are simply all references that are still super normal.

TL;DR, it's fine to have character's movesets to have them be a museum of moves as long as you aren't doing something that ignores SSB's simplicity. You also don't need to make a moveset near 1-to-1 to be faithful to the character either. Like I said about Kirby, he doesn't need more referential moves, because a lot of his moves already are. It's fine to still think it could use some work (again, no slide? Really?) and if those basic Kirby moves did get altered to referential moves, eh, whatever, but I don't see a need to when Kirby already does have a good chunk of referential moves as is.

 

[fogbadge]

As Jotari said, Smash is a fighting game first and foremost, not a museum of character abilities. The problem I have with much of the Smash 4-and-on characters is that they're not picking and choosing the best abilities to fit into Smash's limitations and instead going "LOOK HOW FAITHFUL TO CANON THIS CHARACTER IS." It just makes the newer characters frustrating to pick up and play unlike the 64-Brawl characters.

i dont think thats true. theres plenty of the new characters who dont feel faithful to their canon, inceneroar, sephiroth, PP, P&M, daisy, byleth, etc

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

"Game accuracy" is the sole reason I'm so cautious about Crash making the roster. That damn bazooka doesn't even fit his play style in the source material, no way it'd ever work in Smash. Make stuff up, use stuff from the bad games, composite in other characters' abilities, anything as long as his moveset doesn't end up with the bazooka and/or that bland "throwing boxes" move every Crash fan movedet is mandated to have.

 

[Quillion]

There are definitely characters that try too hard at being faithful to the point where they're not well designed for SSB, but... Mega Man being one of those? Really? Now, not EVERY move on Mega Man had to reference completely different weapons to be a faithful. But at the same time, JUST out of virtue of them being completely different weapons doesn't make Mega Man overcomplicated, considering most aren't anything special. It's not like Ryu where you either tap or hold buttons for completely different attacks for normal moves of all things or anything else that throws SSB's simplicity completely out the window, they're just simple moves. Granted, I can at least see what you mean by "cluttered", but having a slightly "cluttered" moveset thematically doesn't equate to overcomplicated either. Not saying you can't think Mega Man's moveset is a little cluttered, but calling him overcomplicated is just too much. He's no Ryu, he's no Robin, his attacks are simply all references that are still super normal.

TL;DR, it's fine to have character's movesets to have them be a museum of moves as long as you aren't doing something that ignores SSB's simplicity. You also don't need to make a moveset near 1-to-1 to be faithful to the character either. Like I said about Kirby, he doesn't need more referential moves, because a lot of his moves already are. It's fine to still think it could use some work (again, no slide? Really?) and if those basic Kirby moves did get altered to referential moves, eh, whatever, but I don't see a need to when Kirby already does have a good chunk of referential moves as is.

I just think Mega Man leans too heavily into the projectile normals. I think a few are fine; I think Snake's Up Smash is nice, and I want Zelda to replace her Smashes with Light Arrows, but it doesn't work being the basis of a whole moveset.

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

I stumbled upon this thread on Reddit, and so would like to bring its discussion here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8vweuo
So what are the most iconic moves for existing characters that Smash is leaving out? We know that there isn't always enough room to incorporate all facets of a character into Smash, but some exclusions are more justified than others.

• Playing the Crusade fangame made me realize that 's Enemy Carry is missing. Donkey Kong has it because... he kidnapped Pauline this way in the arcade game. But Wario uses this move in gameplay in several Wario Land games as well as Wario World! Not having the Power Throw is justifiable, but if Wario had the Enemy Carry, it would be the perfect melding of Wario Land and Ware elements.
• has the ignominy of having her now-signature Light Arrow go from being acknowledged in some fashion (as a Final Smash) to not being acknowledged at all. I'm personally in favor of it being reworked as a Neutral-B while Nayru's Love is moved to Down-B and Phantom is cut. But if we need the Phantom, the Light Arrow can also be a projectile normal F-Smash; maybe also with an U-Smash.
• Just because I know people are going to spam it, doesn't have his Dead Man's Volley acknowledged. But I don't think giving him a projectile is the way to go about this; after all, having a projectile and a huge sword would be OP for anyone but a lightweight (see Sephiroth). Rather, I would have his Warlock Punch have a "tap" version where if you simply tap Neutral-B, you get a quick uncharged backhand that reflects projectiles and acts as a combo setup.

Personally, I feel that Hero should’ve have his Falcon slash and Sword dance as moves. They are both very strong abilities that despite being much more prevalent than his spells in actual gameplay, are ignored in favor of clumsy sword attacks that don’t even properly portray how he actually fights.

 

[Quillion]

Personally, I feel that Hero should’ve have his Falcon slash and Sword dance as moves. They are both very strong abilities that despite being much more prevalent than his spells in actual gameplay, are ignored in favor of clumsy sword attacks that don’t even properly portray how he actually fights.

Falcon Slash could be a copy of Link and YL's F-Smash if what I'm reading here is any indication. How would Sword Dance even work though? Would that just be a copy of Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom's Side-B?

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

Falcon Slash could be a copy of Link and YL's F-Smash if what I'm reading here is any indication. How would Sword Dance even work though? Would that just be a copy of Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom's Side-B?

I imagine that falcon slash would be his up smash, 2 quick slashes above. Especially since his up smash would actually be useable lol. Sword dance would be his neutral b. The longer you charge, the stronger it is. When fully charged it gains the zap effect. It would be kinda like lighting buster, but less safe and stronger.

 

[Jotari]

i dont think thats true. theres plenty of the new characters who dont feel faithful to their canon, inceneroar, sephiroth, PP, P&M, daisy, byleth, etc

How is Sephiropth not accurate to his home series? All four of his specials are references to attacks he uses in his home games along with his down aerial and final Smash. I haven't looked into whether his generic attacks are 1:1 with any animations we've seen him do, but at the very least the stances he take are very reminiscent of how Sephiroth is animated (and I think his forward smash literally is a Bravery attack from Dissidia 012). They also didn't pull the One Winged Angel from out of their ass. Really I'm not sure what more you could ask for for Sephiroth to be represented in Smash. Unless you want him to forgo using his sword at all and using stuff like Black Materia on his standard moves, there's not much you can ask for short of Bizzaro Sephiroth you can take from his games. The only part of his moveset that feels slightly unfitting are his throws as I don't think he ever warps people around or uses dark magic quite like that.

And just to calrify since people are complaining about how faithful certain characters are, I don't at all think it's a bad thing that Sephiroth is faithfully adapted. In fact I think he's an excellent example of how you can faithfully adapt a character and yet make them work for smash. They didn't try to faithfully shove things like Pale Horse (a status effect move) or Heartless Angel (a move that reduces HP to 1) into his moveset. Instead they took things he did and implemented them in interesting ways. Shadow Flare being the best example it's a pretty generic attack in Final Fantasy VII, but they've used the visual element of it here to implement it in as a very interesting attack (and one that suits Sephiroth on a thematic level with how much preplanned manipulating he does). A character that I think is an example of the opposite is Byleth. This commenting I'm quoting says Byleth doesn't feel faithful to their canon and I agree, Byleth doesn't feel faithful, but that's not from a lack of trying on the developers part. Because everything Byleth does does indeed come from Three Houses, it's just they were so busy shoving in references they didn't take the time to actually implement Byleth. You have me doing all this sort of stuff yet I'm just feeling the loss of not being able to use Magic or Gauntlets, two things Byleth actually does have profeicency with in Three Houses. It is still a decently fun moveset to play (though I have some heavy Fire Emblem bias) and the moves individually do work well in Smash, but I feel like there's a distinct lack of cohesion in Byleth's moveset.

 

[fogbadge]

How is Sephiropth not accurate to his home series? All four of his specials are references to attacks he uses in his home games along with his down aerial and final Smash. I haven't looked into whether his generic attacks are 1:1 with any animations we've seen him do, but at the very least the stances he take are very reminiscent of how Sephiroth is animated (and I think his forward smash literally is a Bravery attack from Dissidia 012). They also didn't pull the One Winged Angel from out of their ass. Really I'm not sure what more you could ask for for Sephiroth to be represented in Smash. Unless you want him to forgo using his sword at all and using stuff like Black Materia on his standard moves, there's not much you can ask for short of Bizzaro Sephiroth you can take from his games. The only part of his moveset that feels slightly unfitting are his throws as I don't think he ever warps people around or uses dark magic quite like that.

And just to calrify since people are complaining about how faithful certain characters are, I don't at all think it's a bad thing that Sephiroth is faithfully adapted. In fact I think he's an excellent example of how you can faithfully adapt a character and yet make them work for smash. They didn't try to shove things like Pale Horse (a status effect move) into his moveset. Instead they took things he did and implemented them in interesting ways. Shadow Flare being the best example it's a pretty generic attack in Final Fantasy VII, but they've used the visual element of it here to implement it in as a very interesting attack (and one that suits Sephiroth on a thematic level with how much preplanned manipulating he does). A character that I think is an example of the opposite is Byleth. This commenting I'm quoting says Byleth doesn't feel faithful to their canon and I agree, Byleth doesn't feel faithful, but that's not from a lack of trying on the developers part. Because everything Byleth does does indeed come from Three Houses, it's just they were so busy shoving in references they didn't take the time to actually implement Byleth. You have me doing all this sort of stuff yet I'm just feeling the loss of not being able to use Magic or Gauntlets, two things Byleth actually does have profeicency with in Three Houses. It is still a decently fun moveset to play (though I have some heavy Fire Emblem bias) and the moves individually do work well in Smash, but I feel like there's a distinct lack of cohesion in Byleth's moveset.

his entire mechanic is based on a spin-off game and he first sprouted the wing in in AC and he was not a glass canon in any of them

 

[Quillion]

A character that I think is an example of the opposite is Byleth. This commenting I'm quoting says Byleth doesn't feel faithful to their canon and I agree, Byleth doesn't feel faithful, but that's not from a lack of trying on the developers part. Because everything Byleth does does indeed come from Three Houses, it's just they were so busy shoving in references they didn't take the time to actually implement Byleth. You have me doing all this sort of stuff yet I'm just feeling the loss of not being able to use Magic or Gauntlets, two things Byleth actually does have profeicency with in Three Houses. It is still a decently fun moveset to play (though I have some heavy Fire Emblem bias) and the moves individually do work well in Smash, but I feel like there's a distinct lack of cohesion in Byleth's moveset.

Would Byleth be actually interesting if all they had were their own proficient abilities? Their moveset as is already is lacking in excitement.

That said, I still prefer Byleth over most of the other DLC characters thanks to their simplicity.

 

[Jotari]

his entire mechanic is based on a spin-off game and he first sprouted the wing in in AC and he was not a glass canon in any of them

So? In the original game he doesn't fight using that fancy sword he holds. He fights by transforming into giant monsters. Would you rather he fought as deformed Jenova creatures and Bizzaro Sephiroth?

Would Byleth be actually interesting if all they had were their own proficient abilities? Their moveset as is already is lacking in excitement.

That said, I still prefer Byleth over most of the other DLC characters thanks to their simplicity.

It's not an answer of would Byleth be interesting, it's a matter of could Byleth be interesting with his own proficiencies. And the answer to that is the same as most characters we've talked about, it depends how creative they are. Adapt things 1:1 and no, not hugely, because Fire Emblem is not a game that lends itself easily to Smash with it's gameplay (and Three Houses in particular has pretty rubbish animations). But as a basic idea, punching, light magic and a whip sword is not inherently terrible as a combination of things to be used to make an interesting moveset. They managed to give Marth an interesting moveset using just the idea of having a sword.

 

[fogbadge]

So? In the original game he doesn't fight using that fancy sword he holds. He fights by transforming into giant monsters. Would you rather he fought as deformed Jenova creatures and Bizzaro Sephiroth?

I’d have been on board for that

Besides you’re forgetting the flash backs where he’s a party member and uses his brig sword

 

[Jotari]

I’d have been on board for that

I mean...I totally would be too...but that's not really the point XD

Besides you’re forgetting the flash backs where he’s a party member and uses his brig sword

But Sephiroth does use his sword in Smash. That being said, I don't think the handle strikes he uses it with in Smash are particularly accurate to him, but that seems like an obvious work around to allow him to have some short range attacks despite having a massive sword.
The overall point is that by and large, pretty much everything from Sephiroth is derived from his games. Sure the One Winger Angel form first showed up in a movie and Scintilla and Octoslash (and possibly his forward smash) came from Dissidia Final Fantasy (or possibly Kingdom Hearts), but those are part of the legacy of the character too. For better or for worse, one could say a much bigger part of the character's legacy and how he is depicted than his original title. There is absolutely no sense in characters only having attacks that come from their debut title. If you look up a list of attacks Sephiroth has, most of them will be from the spin offs and sequels. How Nintendo treated Sephiroth as a character is exactly how Square treats him. Smash Sephiroth is accurate to Square Enix's Sephiroth.

Aside from just removing One Winged Angel because it originated in a movie, how would you actually redesign Sephiroth to be more faithful to his original incarnation (I mean other than going the outright weird choice of turning him into a monster or Safer Sephiroth)?

 

[fogbadge]

I mean...I totally would be too...but that's not really the point XD

But Sephiroth does use his sword in Smash. That being said, I don't think the handle strikes he uses it with in Smash are particularly accurate to him, but that seems like an obvious work around to allow him to have some short range attacks despite having a massive sword.
The overall point is that by and large, pretty much everything from Sephiroth is derived from his games. Sure the One Winger Angel form first showed up in a movie and Scintilla and Octoslash (and possibly his forward smash) came from Dissidia Final Fantasy (or possibly Kingdom Hearts), but those are part of the legacy of the character too. For better or for worse, one could say a much bigger part of the character's legacy and how he is depicted than his original title. There is absolutely no sense in characters only having attacks that come from their debut title. If you look up a list of attacks Sephiroth has, most of them will be from the spin offs and sequels. How Nintendo treated Sephiroth as a character is exactly how Square treats him. Smash Sephiroth is accurate to Square Enix's Sephiroth.

Aside from just removing One Winged Angel because it originated in a movie, how would you actually redesign Sephiroth to be more faithful to his original incarnation (I mean other than going the outright weird choice of turning him into a monster or Safer Sephiroth)?

I wouldn’t redesign him at all I’m fine with how he is in smash. I just don’t think you can really say he’s true to his own game

 

[Jotari]

I wouldn’t redesign him at all I’m fine with how he is in smash. I just don’t think you can really say he’s true to his own game

Why? Just because he has a mechanic that first popped up in a movie? Or because the only way he could feel like he's from his debut game would be if he turned into monsters?

 

[fogbadge]

Why? Just because he has a mechanic that first popped up in a movie? Or because the only way he could feel like he's from his debut game would be if he turned into monsters?

it first popped up in KH

 

[Perkilator]

I just watched the Sora presentation.

I understand Sakurai has his own way of doing things, and I'm pretty happy with how Sora turned out...but here was my interpretation:

Spoiler: My Sora moveset

Intro: Sora appears from a save point and gets into his fighting stance

Stance/Idle 1: Sora holds his Keyblade near his right hip and looks around
Idle 2: Sora rests his Keyblade on his right shoulder for a second
Idle 3: Sora bares his teeth in the direction he's facing

Notable Palette Swaps:

1. KH1 outfit (default)
2. KH2 outfit (alt 1)
3. DDD outfit (alt 2)
4. KH3 outfit (alt 3)
5. Timeless River (KH1 white)
6. Valor Form (KH2 red)
7. Wisdom Form (DDD blue)
8. Ultimate Form (KH3 white)

Walk: His walk from the games when in combat
Jog: His run from the games when in combat
Dash: Sora rests the Keyblade on his shoulders while running
Damage: His damage animation from the games
Jump: High Jump and Doubleflight
Crouch: Crouches down on one knee with his Keyblade pointing forwards

Normal Attacks
Jab: Slapshot / Speed Slash; Sora performs a sideways uppercut with his Keyblade (2%, OK knockback), then slashes twice (2% each hit, small knockback), and follows up with a quick circular slash (3%, OK knockback)
Forward+A: Guard Break; Sora thrusts his Keyblade forward (6%, small knockback), dealing considerable shield damage
Down+A: Sliding Dash; Sora performs a slide across the ground, slightly farther than Cloud’s but takes a bit more windup (7%, OK knockback)
Up+A: Upper Slash; Sora swats his Keyblade upward (6%, OK knockback)

Aerial Attacks
Air+A: Magnet Burst; Sora briefly surrounds himself with a magnetic field that attracts nearby opponents and bursts them away (9%, OK knockback)
Air Forward+A: Aerial Finish; Sora performs a strong slash with slight startup lag (15%, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Aerial Sweep; Sora slashes behind himself three times (8%, small knockback)
Air Up+A: Hurricane Winder; Sora performs three vertical moonsaults (9%, OK knockback)
Air Down+A: Diving Strike; Sora pauses for a bit before diving down and striking the ground with his Keyblade (11% with a meteor effect, OK knockback). He can slightly move to the left or right just before he dives

Dash Attack: Prism Windmill; Sora spins Keyblade in front of him, protected by a windmill of light (8%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Last Charge; Sora lifts himself up and slams down to create a pillar of light (11%, OK knockback)
Get-up Attack: Vicinity Break; Sora sweeps the floor with his Keyblade in a 360 spin (9%, OK knockback)

Smash Attacks
Forward+A: Strike Raid; Sora throws his Keyblade forward as it spins (21%, medium knockback). This attack can be slightly angled in the direction the control stick is tilted.
Up+A: Ripple Drive; Sora swings upwards and summons a barrier of light with rectangular patterns (21%, medium knockback)
Down+A: Explosion; three orbs of light surround Sora as he thrusts his Keyblade down to the ground (22%, medium knockback)

Grab Game
Grab: Sora pulls in the opponent with Magnet and grabs them with his open hand
Pummel: Sora headbutts the opponent with that thick skull of his (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Quick Blitz; Sora hops up and swings in a downward arc (9%, OK knockback)
Down+Throw: Fail-Safe; Sora spins once before tossing the opponent on the ground, leaving a small explosion (8%, small knockback)
Back+Throw: Merge; Sora spins around backwards before hurling the opponent in that direction (11%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Lunging Launch; Sora hops and slashes upwards to launch the opponent (10%, OK knockback)

Special Moves
B : Magic; Sora can select a magic spell from his list, similar to the Hero. Once a spell is selected, it will stay on that spell until another is selected, which can be done on the fly. You can cancel the selection by pressing the Shield button.

• Firaga: Sora summons two rings of fire that encircle him (7%, OK knockback)
• Blizzaga: Sora shoots a spreading burst of three snowflakes that have a chance of freezing the opponent (5% each, small knockback); using this in the air has Sora shoot them diagonally downward
• Thundaga: Sora summons electricity from his Keyblade that locks on to any nearby fighters, up to four at a time (8% each, small knockback). When not locked on, each bolt forms a dome around Sora.
• Aeroga: Sora surrounds himself in a windy barrier that halves damage taken and reflects projectiles. The spell lasts for 18 seconds, and he can’t use any other spell nor use Aeroga again during this time.
• Curaga: Sora heals up to 50% taken damage, and can also heal allies in team battles by ⅓ regardless of how far away they are. This spell can only be used once per stock.

B + Forwards : Sonic Blade; Sora swiftly thrusts three times with consecutive button presses (3%-4% each hit, small knockback). You can tilt the control stick to move in any direction after the initial thrust.
B + Up : Airstep; Sora travels in the pointed direction at the speed of light and does a Sonic Slash when he hits an opponent (9%, OK knockback)
B + Down : Ars Arcanum; Sora charges up and unleashes a flurry of ten slashes (1.3% each hit, OK knockback), then finishes with three stronger slashes (5.2% each hit, OK knockback). The charge is canceled when the player lets go of B.

Final Smash: Sealing the Keyhole; Sora traps fighters in a door (9%). Fighters who are trapped are taken into a cutscene where Sora locks the door, and the jumps up and unleashes Ragnarok (57.6%, devastating knockback)

Gimmick: Grand Magic; after pulling off successful combos, three arrows appear by Sora's HUD, one by one. Once a combo is successful with all three arrows, a command appears above Sora's icon, and pressing B will activate one of four Grand Magic spells, which are obtained by using one spell consistently. Only one Situation Command appears at a time, and that spell will appear for 20 seconds.

• Firaza has Sora summon a giant fireball that travels offscreen when it doesn't hit any opponents (27%, medium knockback)
• Blizzaza has Sora summon an actual blizzard that freezes every opponent on the stage for a bit (10%, small knockback)
• Thundaza has Sora rain down a pillar of electricity in front of him (25%, medium knockback)
• Aeroza has Sora summon a tornado that circles around him, sending opponents flying (20%, far knockback)
• Whenever you use a Grand Magic tier of a spell, that spell enters a 15-second cool down period

Taunts
1: Sora wipes his nose and smiles
2: "My friends are my power!" Sora puts his hand to his chest and looks down
1+2: Sora performs performs the Funny Face Special

Winposes
1: "That's the power of the Keyblade!" Sora's first victory animation from KH1, whenever he wins a tournament in Olympus Coliseum
2: “Nothing to it!” Sora's second victory animation from KH1, whenever he wins a tournament in Olympus Coliseum
3: “Oh yeah, take that!” Sora's third victory animation from KH1, whenever he wins a tournament in Olympus Coliseum; however, at the end of this version, Sora strikes a very familiar pose

Applause: Sora claps for the opponent
Icon: The heart and crown in KH series logo
Boxing Ring Title: The Keyblade's Chosen One
Star K.O.: https://youtu.be/XgtJ3E5-I_A?t=558
Victory Music: A remix of Hand in Hand
Kirby Hat: Sora's hair and necklace; Kirby can’t use Grand Magic, and Curaga is unavailable

Basically, I wanted to give Sora a wider movepool, using more of the attacks he does in the games.

 

[Jotari]

it first popped up in KH

Well that's kind of beside the point. As you're whole issue is that it didn't come from his original game.

 

[fogbadge]

Well that's kind of beside the point. As you're whole issue is that it didn't come from his original game.

I said his canon not his game

 

[Jotari]

I said his canon not his game

It's in his canon though. Regardless as to where the One Winged Angel form came from, it's in a bunch of games (and movies) where Sephiroth appears. Basically every depiction of him except Final Fantasy VII. Hell they basically made the whole idea the entire plot of Crisis Core. They've even put it into the Final Fantasy VII remake.

The One Winged Angel form has been used constantly since its first conception, it is very much a part of who Sephiroth is as a character and I dare say as iconic to him as his sword (and let's face it, it's not like Kingdom Hearts completely made it up, it was the name of his theme even in the original game even if he never had a wing in his humanoid form).

 

[fogbadge]

It's in his canon though. Regardless as to where the One Winged Angel form came from, it's in a bunch of games (and movies) where Sephiroth appears. Basically every depiction of him except Final Fantasy VII. Hell they basically made the whole idea the entire plot of Crisis Core. They've even put it into the Final Fantasy VII remake.
View attachment 333371
The One Winged Angel form has been used constantly since its first conception, it is very much a part of who Sephiroth is as a character and I dare say as iconic to him as his sword (and let's face it, it's not like Kingdom Hearts completely made it up, it was the name of his theme even in the original game even if he never had a wing in his humanoid form).

yes but the idea of it as a more powerful form is from dissidia which is ambiguous canon at best

 

[Jotari]

yes but the idea of it as a more powerful form is from dissidia which is ambiguous canon at best

You're grasping at straws to prove a point you don't actually have here. It's used as a more powerful form all the time. Look no further than the most current game, the Final Fantasy remake where he unleashes halfway through the battle when the fight gets harder. Dissidia is a representation of Sephiroth and his abilities throughout all the games he's appeared in, just like Smash is. In Dissidia everyone has some sort of transformation, so for Sephiroth they used, well the thing he uses as a mid battle transformation in his appearances. I dare say even if Disddia just plain didn't exist Smash Bros. still likely would have used the same idea as a gimmick, because he's been doing it ever since Advent Children (which is canon to Final Fantasy VII, if that really matters). Sephiroth fights without a wing, then part way through battle he gains a wing and displays more of his power. That's the way it works in the various titles that use Final Fantasy VII content, and that's the way it works in Super Smash Bros. It's authentic to the way Sephiroth is depicted as a character, up to and including the remake of Final Fantasy VII itself. If you say Sephiroth doesn't fight like Sephiroth in the remake then you just have to face the fact that what you see as Sephiroth just simply isn't the same thing as the people who own him.

 

[fogbadge]

You're grasping at straws to prove a point you don't actually have here.

im not grasping at straws at all. im just expressing an opinion on how i feel sephiroth is in smash. dont get mad just cause i dont agree with your view

 

[Jotari]

im not grasping at straws at all. im just expressing an opinion on how i feel sephiroth is in smash. dont get mad just cause i dont agree with your view

I'm not mad (getting mad or stressed about something on the internet is downright silly). Your argument has just been lacking. Sephiroth has been consistently appearing with a single wing in canon and non canon titles for about two decades now, with the wing specifically being used to display his power. Smash Bros., and Dissidia are not exceptions to this trend. Smash Bros is only showing off Sephiroth the way every other title uses him. You're entitled to feel how you like about him, but what you're saying about how the wing is depicted just isn't true.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm not mad (getting mad or stressed about something on the internet is downright silly). Your argument has just been lacking. Sephiroth has been consistently appearing with a single wing in canon and non canon titles for about two decades now, with the wing specifically being used to display his power. Smash Bros., and Dissidia are not exceptions to this trend. Smash Bros is only showing off Sephiroth the way every other title uses him. You're entitled to feel how you like about him, but what you're saying about how the wing is depicted just isn't true.

Well I wasn’t trying to argue

 

[Jotari]

Well I wasn’t trying to argue

You do keep responding with points I see as flawed, and if I see a flaw, I'm going to point it out. I'm an Ace Attorney fan after all.

 

[fogbadge]

You do keep responding with points I see as flawed, and if I see a flaw, I'm going to point it out. I'm an Ace Attorney fan after all.

Yeah so am I. I don’t try and live them

 

[Jotari]

Yeah so am I. I don’t try and live them

I'm not attacking you, you know. If you don't feel like defending your opinion you can just not. If someone says something and I have an opinion on it then I'm going to talk about it. That's what we're here for after all. To discuss the matter of characters and how they're iconic moves are or aren't used.

 

[Lenidem]

Smash is a fighting game first and foremost, not a museum

It's both.

 

[Jotari]

On the topic of Iconic moves, is there anything noticably lacking with Kazuya's moveset? I'm not overly familar with Tekken, but it seems like they used every last piece of animation from his own games for his Smash moveset. Is there anything iconic missing or is he a completely faithful adaptation (for better or for worse).

 

[Quillion]

It's both.

I assure you, if every character was Mega Man, Ryu, Terry, or Kazuya-level faithful, people would be turned away from the game from how overcomplicated the characters are.

 

[Oracle Link]

i would have loved that. along with the throws plus sound effects

Yeah the charged throw from Wl3 and maybe 2 im not sure sounds so rad!

 

[Oracle Link]

i dont think thats true. theres plenty of the new characters who dont feel faithful to their canon, inceneroar, sephiroth, PP, P&M, daisy, byleth, etc

But you cant even refrence anything normal Sephi does because he only fights you in Bizarro and Safer!

Also sorry for 2x Posting

 

[Quillion]

On the topic of Iconic moves, is there anything noticably lacking with Kazuya's moveset? I'm not overly familar with Tekken, but it seems like they used every last piece of animation from his own games for his Smash moveset. Is there anything iconic missing or is he a completely faithful adaptation (for better or for worse).

Let's be fair here; the Smash 4-on newcomers are overloaded in terms of references, whether they're made overcomplicated or not. I'd say even Villager, the first first party character for Smash 4 is cluttered with references.

In that case, it's hard to imagine us discussing the Smash 4-on newcomers in terms of missing moves since they want to pack in as many referential moves as possible.

 

[Oracle Link]

Let's be fair here; the Smash 4-on newcomers are overloaded in terms of references, whether they're made overcomplicated or not. I'd say even Villager, the first first party character for Smash 4 is cluttered with references.

In that case, it's hard to imagine us discussing the Smash 4-on newcomers in terms of missing moves since they want to pack in as many referential moves as possible.

Thats one of the main reasons why i like having 1 adult and young link with the current moveset! because they use all of links common weapons and can be used for multiple game links!
Although i still give them some nice stuf:

Young link: Would use the spin attack as all smash attacks, Have the magiacal Boomerang, Bomb arrows, Switch hook and tornado rod as up special alöso sword beams!

Adult link: Work like smash 4 but has Remote bombs (with a minishcap look to beb more univwersal) and his new arrow pick up gimmick and sword beam!

 

[Quillion]

Thats one of the main reasons why i like having 1 adult and young link with the current moveset! because they use all of links common weapons and can be used for multiple game links!
Although i still give them some nice stuf:

Young link: Would use the spin attack as all smash attacks, Have the magiacal Boomerang, Bomb arrows, Switch hook and tornado rod as up special alöso sword beams!

Adult link: Work like smash 4 but has Remote bombs (with a minishcap look to beb more univwersal) and his new arrow pick up gimmick and sword beam!

I certainly think that the Links are redundant enough that they should share normals but not specials. I guess all of them can share the bow since that's the second-most iconic Zelda item class after some sort of sword. But I do agree that Young Link should have transformation moves while Toon Link gets things from Wind Waker.

That said, I still wish we got a TP/OoT echo for Link so that the original moveset wouldn't feel so "thrown out." Young Link as a throwback still isn't good enough for me.

 

[Lenidem]

I assure you, if every character was Mega Man, Ryu, Terry, or Kazuya-level faithful, people would be turned away from the game from how overcomplicated the characters are.

A lot of references doesn't automatically mean a complicated moveset. And my point is: Smash is a museum. At its core.

 

[Jotari]

It's both.

You're right, it is both. But the key phrase was "first and foremost". Smash isn't just a Nintendo all stars get together. It is a proper fighting game with a lot of effort put into the development of it's (rather unique) mechanics. While it wouldn't be nearly as popular, Smash could exist without the Nintendo characters that make it up, in fact it was originally conceived that way.

Let's be fair here; the Smash 4-on newcomers are overloaded in terms of references, whether they're made overcomplicated or not. I'd say even Villager, the first first party character for Smash 4 is cluttered with references.

In that case, it's hard to imagine us discussing the Smash 4-on newcomers in terms of missing moves since they want to pack in as many referential moves as possible.

Villager wasn't the first character to have a "reference overloaded" moveset. That would be Game and Watch back in Melee whom, I think, every single frame of animation is a reference to something from the Game and Watch series.

 

[Quillion]

A lot of references doesn't automatically mean a complicated moveset. And my point is: Smash is a museum. At its core.

Look, a lot of people say that Mario could have a really wacky moveset based on various power-ups instead of being a fairly standard shoto.

But not a lot of people say that Mario should have such a moveset. It's much better to prioritize giving characters a well-defined niche within Smash's containment instead of trying to showcase the things the things they could bring into the series.

Villager wasn't the first character to have a "reference overloaded" moveset. That would be Game and Watch back in Melee whom, I think, every single frame of animation is a reference to something from the Game and Watch series.

Thing is, G&W still feels very simple, so I guess he can be a good example of a character where they overloaded him with references while fitting them very well into Melee at the time. While I wouldn't say Villager isn't too overcomplicated, I'd say they verge on it.