What’s the silliest Smash argument you’ve heard? - Read OP

[Mogisthelioma]

3. I mean Sonic isn't inherently broken or anything, and Bayonetta seems toned back. The Echo fighters wouldn't be adding much trouble to anything other than giving fans of those Echoes a shot, right? Echoes, at least for me, are harmless, but I can see if you hate the characters I suppose you don't want more of them.

Tied for 7th best fighter with fox.
I mean he got heavily nerfed in Ultimate, so he'll probably be C tier now.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Tied for 7th best fighter with fox.
I mean he got heavily nerfed in Ultimate, so he'll probably be C tier now.

I guess I’m confused why that’s an issue if he’s not actually all that different front Sonic himself (Assuming we’re talking Shadow). I get that Sonic is traditionally a higher ranking character, but I’ve never seen anyone say he’s broken like Bayo. And, an Echo doesn’t add a move set to the game really, they just use the existing one with tweaks, making them effectively not that different. You’d still be fighting against the base Sonic at the end of the day I feel, not something new and more annoying.

At least, that’s how I see it.

 

[Crystanium]

EricTheGamerman
You can voice your opinion and be disappointed when things don't go your way, but if you aren't part of the development team, you don't get to make the choices. There are millions of people with their own wants and desires, so if their wants and desires are met, whereas yours aren't, then you come off as entitled when you expect or even demand that the product be made as you want. As for making a product "worth buying", that's purely subjective. Competitve gamers didn't enjoy Brawl as much as casual gamers, for example.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I guess I’m confused why that’s an issue if he’s not actually all that different front Sonic himself (Assuming we’re talking Shadow). I get that Sonic is traditionally a higher ranking character, but I’ve never seen anyone say he’s broken like Bayo. And, an Echo doesn’t add a move set to the game really, they just use the existing one with tweaks, making them effectively not that different. You’d still be fighting against the base Sonic at the end of the day I feel, not something new and more annoying.

At least, that’s how I see it.

My issue with Sonic is that like half of his attacks just involve rolling into a ball and all but one are just punches and kicks. Not to mention his annoying Up B to up air, which is the only reason he's high tier.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

EricTheGamerman
You can voice your opinion and be disappointed when things don't go your way, but if you aren't part of the development team, you don't get to make the choices. There are millions of people with their own wants and desires, so if their wants and desires are met, whereas yours aren't, then you come off as entitled when you expect or even demand that the product be made as you want. As for making a product "worth buying", that's purely subjective. Competitve gamers didn't enjoy Brawl as much as casual gamers, for example.

Again, I'm not the one demanding Sakurai do anything specific for me. I just wanted to highlight that the dynamic like most things isn't so black and white, and that to some degree, the fan base should be able to make demands of the product producer. That's how you generally end up with the ideal product, by engaging with the fan communities and seeing what can be improved and what is desired. While Sakurai and team is putting in passion and their own artistic vision to various elements of the project, they are also not allowed the freedom of typical artist because their goal is to make a game that will sell.

You obviously can't listen to the fans entirely, you're never going to please everyone. I'm not personally demanding anything of anyone either as I'm generally satisfied if mildly disappointed with the end of the hype cycle and unsure about modes in the game. Additionally, I mentioned most people use the dynamic more childishly as a means of expressing anger and disappointment and genuinely being entitled about it.

Where I think the demand argument begins to expand is with fan bases. When you have large, vocal fan bases not getting attention or having their concerns addressed, then the position starts to develop to "Demand" attention be paid to them. Again, I'm not saying those demands need to be, or should be met, but I think that perhaps those communities begin to develop more authority than just merely asking at a certain point. I don't know exact numbers on fan bases, and it would be impossible to figure those out. But when you see such highly requested characters ignored or relegated to assists in the era of DLC, I do think you're coming off a bit tone death to your consumers. At least discussing those characters with the fan base and stating why you made the decisions you did regarding those characters is deserved to some extent. I think you're allowed to demand that much once you've become a big enough part of the community, to ask for a little more transparency in the process.

Again, this is all in the ideal realm of game development that can be constantly updated and issues addressed. No, you're not entitled to anything as the consumer except for a functioning thing of what you pay for. But game developers aren't entitled to our undying support, love, and purchase either. To make that relationship work best, you work with one another to determine what's best for the parties involved.



Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying that Sakurai messed up or owes us anything. I think he could stand to be more transparent with those fan requested characters and choose to be more conscious of revealing things early so as to manage hype for such highly requested characters, but he doesn't HAVE to do anything. I think the game should generally have enough content to justify a purchase from most Smash fans, but I also see how people are disappointed with the game. I also agree most people act out of entitlement issues, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean the action of attempting to engage in dialogue with a game for fans about what to include is bad in of itself.

I'm more just arguing consumer philosophy at this point, just because I think there is a lot more depth to it than people are giving in this thread. I don't think you should "Demand" something be in the game, but I believe you can demand "attention" to some extent just by way of fostering a large supportive community for bigger options. That's how characters get in the game after all from fan requests. And again, an active dialogue between fans and creators is the most optimal way towards a more satisfying product.

Smash is a fan service game after all, and forgetting that is to forget the identity of Smash in a lot of ways. I'm personally satisfied with the product and think Sakurai did a ton of fan service in his decision making for this game, but I understand the potential for disappointment and as a fan-service game it's going to be held to a higher standard than most games from those same fans.

 

[Lime3037]

Also, the most ridiculous argument I personally see for or against characters are:
1. This character pisses people off, so I love it.
2. People love this character and support it all the time, I hate it.

When you're basing your opinion of a character entirely on what other people are feeling, you actually have no relation to that character or understanding of it. You're enjoying either being a contrarian or the disdain of others in a topic. That sort of thing doesn't even feel like it should be related to how people react to characters in my mind.

I agree 100%.
1. Because it's a try-hard trolling attempt. I would say that most characters have more more supporters than detractors. And even then, most people aren't going to say, "How DARE you pick THAT character?!" as they get so mad they let you win the match.
2. "How dare you like something I don't?! Pfft, normies, am I right?"

 

[EricTheGamerman]

My issue with Sonic is that like half of his attacks just involve rolling into a ball and all but one are just punches and kicks. Not to mention his annoying Up B to up air, which is the only reason he's high tier.

I feel like we're not quite on the same page. I'm not a huge fan of Sonic as a character personally despite my many attempts to like his play style over the years, but that's kind of what I'm not discussing.

I'm asking, why would it have been such an issue for him to have an Echo in say Shadow as people expected? The only thing he would have added would have been another fan requested and popular Sonic character to the character pool, nothing new mechanically unless they decided to change his Up-B for example or something. He'd also have probably been slower and more manageable as I imagine they'd want to retain Sonic as the absolute fastest. You're not adding another problematic character to the roster with an Echo, you're just using an existing move set to provide some fan service.

 

[Sans3546]

"what's your stance on smash melee?"
"The game sucks. The balance is horrible in that game. It's always the same old characters that are broken."
"who is unbalanced?"
"Bayonetta is broken! Her combos in that game are obscene, and nothing besides death gets me out of them."
"i think your talking about the wrong game."
"No, she is broken in Melee, Sm4sh, and the E3 demo of Ultimate."

i literally walked away holding my laugh with all the mental will power i had in me. i began laughing as soon as i was far enough away that he couldn't hear me, and just couldn't stop for like a half hour. everyone in game club was confused on where i went.

 

[Lime3037]

"what's your stance on smash melee?"
"The game sucks. The balance is horrible in that game. It's always the same old characters that are broken."
"who is unbalanced?"
"Bayonetta is broken! Her combos in that game are obscene, and nothing besides death gets me out of them."
"i think your talking about the wrong game."
"No, she is broken in Melee, Sm4sh, and the E3 demo of Ultimate."

i literally walked away holding my laugh with all the mental will power i had in me. i began laughing as soon as i was far enough away that he couldn't hear me, and just couldn't stop for like a half hour. everyone in game club was confused on where i went.

Pfft, everyone knows Bayonetta is the most OP character in the game that came out years before she was even invented!

 

[Nyxur]

Pfft, everyone knows Bayonetta is the most OP character in the game that came out years before she was even invented!

Wasn't she in Smash64 too?

 

[osby]

Wasn't she in Smash64 too?

Yeah, but she was pretty fair in that one.

 

[Sans3546]

Wasn't she in Smash64 too?

don't forget brawl. i think she was there too.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

don't forget brawl. i think she was there too.

She sucked in that game. The pace was so slow that anyone can easily air dodge out of her combos. I think she was 37/39 only being above Zelda and Ganondorf for that reason alone. Too bad the game itself never took off in the competitive scene.

 

[Crystanium]

EricTheGamerman
Good stuff.

 

[Artic223]

Probably any argument i ever tried to make lol.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I feel like we're not quite on the same page. I'm not a huge fan of Sonic as a character personally despite my many attempts to like his play style over the years, but that's kind of what I'm not discussing.

I'm asking, why would it have been such an issue for him to have an Echo in say Shadow as people expected? The only thing he would have added would have been another fan requested and popular Sonic character to the character pool, nothing new mechanically unless they decided to change his Up-B for example or something. He'd also have probably been slower and more manageable as I imagine they'd want to retain Sonic as the absolute fastest. You're not adding another problematic character to the roster with an Echo, you're just using an existing move set to provide some fan service.

Shadow is just as obnoxious.
IMO I would rather have octoling or Dark Meta Knight as an echo.

On another note, one of the most pathetic arguments I'm seeing these days are Fox mains saying he shouldn't have been nerfed. These crying babies are sad that he's no longer the overpowered piece of crap that he was in Smash 4. They're saying his nerfs were unjustified, unfair, and destroy fox's playstyle. All the did was make his up smash weaker, and dash attack no longer has follow ups. Like holy ****, calm down, he's still going to be like A or B tier.

 

[Luigifan18]

I just found a real doozy... this kid is claiming that Dr. Eggman is both his OC and inevitable DLC in Smash Ultimate. And he is apparently expecting to be taken completely seriously. I... I just can't measure the stupid.

EDIT: It turns out the guy was using "OC" to mean “Original Content”, not “Original Character (do not steal)”, and was trying to share an Eggman moveset he made rather than claiming that Eggman was his fanfic character — so, he's not stupid in the sense of trying to pass a canon character off as his own, just clueless as to what sort of conclusion he was leading people towards. I have pointed him to the Eggman support thread and reported his redundant thread to the moderators.

 

[FNUStory]

"When are characters like Mario and Link getting removed from Smash Bros?
They're both too iconic for this game and have been represented for too long."

Well, the link I supplied is broken. The post got removed at some point between 15 minutes ago and now.

 

[Goddamn_Angela]

One of the dumbest arguments against Ultimate has to be from someone who I play occasionally with who "mains" Zelda. He HATES Zelda in Ultimate.

His argument is as follows:

"Everything about her is worse. She's weaker, her Down Special buffs are pointless because I don't use it. Wind is trash now, Fire is harder to use, her smashes suck and her Sparkly kick does nothing. She jumps lower and is slower, both when running and jumping around and when attacking. They ruined her."

I tried to tell him that she has been buffed across the board and that he is objectively wrong about the above-bolded parts. She is faster, jumps higher and has better frame data. But he refuses to use the "slower, weaker Zelda" and instead just uses Dark Samus. lol

 

[Gyrom8]

'This character deserves to be in Smash'

Nobody deserves to be in Smash. Fictional characters don't have rights and the bizarre belief that they somehow do leads to people getting way too mad about who does/doesn't get in and a lot of ****flinging over each other's opinions on the roster.

Sure it'd be nice for this or that character to get in because they're popular or because of their origin game's legacy. But 'deserve' isn't the right angle to take, as it makes it seem like a character not being included is some kind of personal insult to them.

 

[lucasla]

"The online in P2P is the best they could do and there's no other way that it would run better because p2p is the way to go in fighting games"

even with 99% of the avaiable server based games running perfectly and smash online being a terrible/disappointing experience.

 

[Rhus]

On another note, one of the most pathetic arguments I'm seeing these days are Fox mains saying he shouldn't have been nerfed. These crying babies are sad that he's no longer the overpowered piece of crap that he was in Smash 4. They're saying his nerfs were unjustified, unfair, and destroy fox's playstyle. All the did was make his up smash weaker, and dash attack no longer has follow ups. Like holy ****, calm down, he's still going to be like A or B tier.

Did a Fox main hurt you?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Did a Fox main hurt you?

Man I made that post so long ago before I realized how buffed he is. I take back everything you said.

But yes I know Fox mains IRL who run to the side of the map and spam neutral B until you're at KO percents and then runs up and hopes to land a Smash attack. It's annoying. And when we initially thought Fox was nerfed, they acted like Sakurai had a stigma against their fighter.

 

[UserKev]

I hate the "D lister" Nintendo character argument. Sakurai wasn't joking when stating he possibly opened Pandora's Box that reversed spoiled the fan base.

 

[Saikyoshi]

"Sakurai is sexist for not putting Lip in and he gave me depression! Also, every character added that's not Lip is a devastating personal blow to me!"

...I'm not even exaggerating, I knew a guy who actually said these things. Granted, it was for Sm4sh, not Ultimate, but the memory sticks out clearly.

 

[Aurane]

The Yink vs Tink days in Brawl were some of the most toxic convos I've ever put myself through.

 

[Deleted member]

"Sakurai hates the DK franchise because he didn't bring back the DKCR stage and made Dixie a Mii costume"

 

[Mogisthelioma]

"Sakurai was biased toward the Kirby franchise when he made Kirby and Meta Knight OP and Kirby survived in World of Light."
In Smash 64 and Brawl, players made the tier lists, not Sakurai. It was poor balancing, not bias.

In World of Light, he literally explained that Kirby was the only fighter who could easily escape Galeem as well as being easy to pick up for new players. The only other 2 capable of surviving were Bayo and Palu, both of which require a bit of practice to learn.

 

[Saikyoshi]

"Sakurai was biased toward the Kirby franchise when he made Kirby and Meta Knight OP and Kirby survived in World of Light."
In Smash 64 and Brawl, players made the tier lists, not Sakurai. It was poor balancing, not bias.

In World of Light, he literally explained that Kirby was the only fighter who could easily escape Galeem as well as being easy to pick up for new players. The only other 2 capable of surviving were Bayo and Palu, both of which require a bit of practice to learn.

I'm poysonally glad he gave them reasonable ways to be caught anyway to solve that problem. Palutena tried to protect the Pits, which does fit her, and Bayo's timing was an instant off, making her use the wrong spell—something that's a regular occurrence playing her source game, I believe.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

"Sakurai is sexist for not putting Lip in and he gave me depression! Also, every character added that's not Lip is a devastating personal blow to me!"

...I'm not even exaggerating, I knew a guy who actually said these things. Granted, it was for Sm4sh, not Ultimate, but the memory sticks out clearly.

......what

.....d-did they have any sort of reasoning for that nonsense?

 

[osby]

"Joker shouldn't be in, because he'll be broken just like Bayonetta."

 

[Deleted member]

I once met a Crash fan whose favourite character was Penta Penguin... but he despised the idea of Banadana Waddle Dee getting in Smash for reasons many people probably heard before.

 

[Saikyoshi]

......what

.....d-did they have any sort of reasoning for that nonsense?

He just really liked Panel de Pon, trying to justify his obsession by saying because it would appeal to female audiences, Nintendo was throwing away money by not localizing it.
This isn't someone I just saw once, either. We were both on the same forum (specifically, TV Tropes) and frequented some of the same topics.

I remember him throwing a fit when Pac-Man was revealed, editing his render on top of a mushroom cloud, as if Pac-Man SPECIFICALLY destroyed any and all hope for Panel de Pon recognition.
And, of course, taking a personal insult to Miis just before that. ("They're CLONES?!")

 

[Michael the Spikester]

People arguing for why Goku should be in.

 

[Saikyoshi]

People arguing for why Goku should be in.

Devil's advocate, he's really fun in SSF2, the devs did a good job giving him a fitting playstyle. Heck, liking how he played there is what convinced me to watch DB for the first time.

But I agree he shouldnt be in the main series. I've seen people argue that he's not only possible, but a necessity, often in the same breath as characters like Banjo so I know they're being dead-serious.

(I wouldn't object to the snowball's-chance-in-HFIL of him actually being added, especially if he plays anything like he does in SSF2, but that doesn't mean I think he's a good idea.)

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Devil's advocate, he's really fun in SSF2, the devs did a good job giving him a fitting playstyle. Heck, liking how he played there is what convinced me to watch DB for the first time.

But I agree he shouldnt be in the main series. I've seen people argue that he's not only possible, but a necessity, often in the same breath as characters like Banjo so I know they're being dead-serious.

(I wouldn't object to the snowball's-chance-in-HFIL of him actually being added, especially if he plays anything like he does in SSF2, but that doesn't mean I think he's a good idea.)

He's not a video game character. Simple as that. Smash is about celebrating gaming.

Plus if he gets in may as well get Batman, Spider-Man, Scooby-Doo, Shrek and such in as well while were at it also giving those people more the reason to want them which is why I'm totally against Goku's inclusion. What reason does Goku have to be an sole exception besides lolpopularity?

 

[Deleted member]

"Ganon is busted"
.......

 

[Manonymous]

and are furries. We should show a video of them being executed in the next direct, then remove them./

You're trolling right ?

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

You're trolling right ?

Nope. Everything types was actually said by someone at one point in time. Most of them came from Reddit or this thread, but some were from other discussions on Smashboards. I kept up with that thread while it was still unlocked for the sole reason of posting some ridiculous things said on here. I haven't been keeping up with stuff like that since this thread originally died.

 

[Saikyoshi]

He's not a video game character. Simple as that. Smash is about celebrating gaming.

Plus if he gets in may as well get Batman, Spider-Man, Scooby-Doo, Shrek and such in as well while were at it also giving those people more the reason to want them which is why I'm totally against Goku's inclusion. What reason does Goku have to be an sole exception besides lolpopularity?

Like I said; I don't think it should happen, or even has a more-than-subatomic chance of happening.

I just wouldn't throw a fit if it somehow by black magic did happen. I learned THAT lesson after realizing how anal I was being about Corrin. I probably would have acted similarly to Incineroar and Piranha Plant if I didn't take a stance of "you know what? Complaining about characters I don't like in the roster is kinda dickish towards people who like playing as that character, and not to mention hypocritical since there are several characters I like that people generally want to cut."
(Examples of generally-hated characters that I don't want to be cut but a not-insignificant number of other people do: )

I repeat: I don't WANT it to happen, I don't think it WILL happen, but I wouldn't do something like never shutting up about it and claiming the entire game is tainted if it somehow does.

Because then I'd become exactly the kind of person I hate most in this fandom: an ungrateful brat who demands that Sakurai make everything to my exact specifications.

This includes both people demanding Goku or any other specific character to be added AND people who would happily throw a temper tantrum and denounce the entire game if that character somehow was. I hate both kinds of people like that with equal fury.

Because I realized after whining about Corrin: the world doesn't revolve around me.

...
...sorry, that's been pent-up for a while and isn't related to you or Goku specifically. I have this attitude towards a lot of people in this fandom. People who are much more openly toxic.