Welcome to Mario Land: The Mario Stage Discussion. Now Discussing: Frigate Orpheon

[Cezz624]

Mario is actually pretty good at the battlefield(which I mostly play on)

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario is actually pretty good at the battlefield(which I mostly play on)

Lol mad late, but that's mostly agreed upon. Battlefield is a great stage for most MUs. Other than a couple of MUs I would have no problem going to BF.

 

[Matador]

Have we done brinstar yet?

Cuz i have no idea how to use this stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I'll try to give a fancy analysis of Brinstar if we do that stage.

 

[Inferno3044]

Why not? I'll put the info up on for Frigate eventually.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Firstoff, I'm going to make a fairly bold claim. Mario benefits more from Brinstar than any other character in the game not named Metaknight. The stage literally works to Mario's advantages perfectly and makes every matchup besides Metaknight in some way more favorable for him.

There's three main things about Brinstar that are important.

1. Platform layout. There's a fairly low top platform, and two lower side platforms that dangle over the edge. Besides Metaknight, there is literally no other character in the game who likes this more than Mario. I'll get to why soon.

2. Low ceiling (and small boundaries in general). Mario is one of the prime candidates in the game for benefiting a lot from small boundaries, partly because his KO moves are generally not hard to land, and also because given that his damage output is on the low end, he appreciates anything that's going to level the playing field against stronger characters.

3. Lava rises. Seriously, they're so good for Mario. You may have noticed that they are not random. There's a topic in the Brawl Stage Discussion forum that goes in depth about that. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278839

At any rate, the primary strategy you should be playing on Brinstar is a defensive one. You don't need to take many risks for damage on this stage, in part due to the fact the lava rises can be very helpful in opening up your opponent's defenses. An opponent who tries to platform camp usually is going to come out on the losing end against Mario due to his wonderful ability to safely and effectively platform pressure. Like on Battlefield, you can SH D-air to cover the side platforms, and fullhop D-air to cover the top platform, and this is an excellent frametrap that will punish jump out of shield on a read.

Furthermore fireball camping is at its best on this stage. It's difficult for the vast majority of the cast to stop Mario from camping on the side platforms, since most of the cast loses the option of standing under the platform with a U-smash/U-tilt as well as the fact that they generally don't have an aerial nearly as practical as Mario's D-air for platform pressure that can frametrap jump out of shield. I'm extremely certain that almost all of us has had fun in camping on Smasville's platform. Camping on Brinstar is just like that, only you get to do it for about 90% of the match duration.

The destructible terrain isn't something Mario should worry about too much, in fact I highly recommend against trying any kill move shenanigans with the terrain. A lot of players think they are clever in using it for hitlag shenanigans, but seriously, that **** should never hit you. The middle section can be a little scary and unpredictable if you're caught shielding there against someone who tries to spam a fast D-smash, but this should rarely be a concern if you're aiming to win by playing defensively. Destroying the middle section is of mostly little consequence, but can be a minor bonus to Mario's camp game. Destroying the side pillars is also mostly of little consequence. Depending on spacing, you can fullhop D-air to cover the upper portion of slanted side platforms. Note that there is basically no ground move in the game that is capable of reaching someone standing on the upper part of a slanted platform, which is worth knowing when getting up from the edge.

Oh yeah, so lava rises. If you want to take it slow and just pester your opponent with fireballs, chances are the lava rises at some point are going to force them to jump and land on a platform. Either camp or punish them when this happens. If by any chance you feel pressured by a lava rise, Cape Stalling as usual is good here. Both you and your opponent also have the option of getting hit by the lava in an emergency. Given that Mario is rather good at not getting ***** by the lava in the first place, and given that Mario by design is a character who really appreciates the potential free damage that the lava is more likely to give his opponent, the lava is usually going to be helping you more than it hurts you.

When the lava rises completely, do your best to be on the top platform. While this isn't specific to Mario, it's definitely especially beneficial for him. Mario's U-smash is PERFECT for killing anyone who has to land on the same platform he's standing on. Killing someone from around 90-100% is really really easy for Mario in this situation.

Also, definitely save B-throw for kills. It's so viable on this stage. From like 130-170, depending on weight, grabbing someone on the side platforms can be really deadly. Given how much Brinstar opens up options for Mario, getting people to that damage shouldn't be too difficult either.



Characters to NEVER take to Brinstar: .

Only Metaknight. Metaknight not only is able to control the platforms better than you, as well as the fact that he's probably hurt the least by lava rises out of almost anyone, he happens to also benefit more from the small boundaries than you do. Getting killed by his Up-B, U-air, D-smash, and D-air more easily is really unfun. Sharking is also lame to deal with.

Characters you might want to think twice about: , , , .

Jigglypuff is another character who doesn't really care too much about the lava rises, and it's actually surprisingly annoying to get killed earlier by her F-air. Fortunately she isn't really a threat when it comes to platform pressure.

Olimar actually really hates the lava rises onstage, although they can save his life from gimps here and there. His Up-B is probably the one ground move in the game you have to somewhat respect when platform camping, and should you get grabbed, getting killed earlier by his throws can be a little lame. Outside of that this is your stage and playing safely with solid fundamentals should likely give you the edge.

The main problem with taking G&W to Brinstar is he technically pressures the platforms better than you do. His F-air is also a really good kill move and he's generally a good character at avoiding stage hazards. You still however can camp decently (watch out for Oil Panic as well as his ridiculous techchases on platforms), and you have quite a few faster options for KOs than he does. B-throw in specific is VERY valuable here.

Luigi like Mario has an aerial that can be used for platform pressure and frametrapping jump out of shield (F-air). He also has a wide range of decent moves that can be used for KOing, including a slightly stronger B-throw and aerials. He doesn't really have your camp game or aerial maneuverability though. You still have to hit him more than he has to hit you, but at least camping on this stage is very good for Mario.

Everyone else: Take them to this stage if they don't ban it. By all means ALWAYS take Falco and the Ice Climbers here. This stage utterly messes them up. I'm not entirely certain about all specific matchup ratios yet, but Mario does definitely beat Falco, ICs, and Wario on this stage.

Random matchup gimmicks to keep in mind:

ROB's Gyro bounces off the lava forever. If you catch it and have nothing better to do with it, toss it into the lava.

Link and Toon Link can bounce off the destructible terrain with D-air. Nothing too serious, but it gives them more landing options.

Captain Falcon can use the destructible terrain including the section in the middle to activate his SideB without actually hitting anything.

Ganondorf can try to Ganoncide you for free during lava rises. This should never hit you honestly.

And of course, hitlag shenanigans. You never need to run into them. Just stall more if you see one happening. You should rarely ever be approaching on Brinstar anyway.

 

[Matador]

Much obliged, A2.

Very thorough. Also explains why I haven't done very well here either...I definitely have to try camping here.

Question though...do we beat Pit here? His platform camping is pretty legit and he can shark here. There's also the danger of timing us out and he's not affected by the fireball camping as much.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah actually...I've not played a Pit on this stage.

Sharking is definitely lame. Don't let it bother you, and simply wait for an opportunity to edgetrap with fireballs or for the lava to rise.

One of the things that helps in Pit vs Mario is that Mario is better at juggling Pit than the other way around. While Mario isn't exactly blisteringly fast, Pit in comparison is much slower in the air, and his options for stopping juggles aren't really good. I mean yeah, he can hover a lot, but he doesn't air/platform camp NEARLY as well as Metaknight does. Also I'm not sure about you, but I'd rather play Pit on a smaller stage than FD.

 

[Matador]

Agreed, the size of this stage works for us in that match-up.

Next time I play Luckay, I'll try playing the way you've outlined here and see if I can find any success.

 

[Inferno3044]

It's good for Mario, but saying to take everyone there is pretty bold. It's a good stage for Mario, but others can definitely benefit as much or more (mostly because they just have more and/or options). As I have said before about Brinstar, it's a lot like BF except a good amount of characters don't do well on it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You really underestimate how rare it is to have a platform pressure option that frametraps jump out of shield in this game. It's actually quite uncommon. Most characters have to be grounded to have remotely effective platform pressure games, ones that actually can punish you for shielding.

Furthermore, Mario's projectile literally could not be better designed for camping and controlling Brinstar. Well I mean if it was made any better, it would be like Metaknight status broken on this stage.

Furthermore, most characters really don't have kill moves like Mario's. Mario's U-smash so happens to be fast and able cover entire platforms on this stage, and his B-throw is also viable. Like, yeah Luigi has a good U-smash and B-throw, but he doesn't have Mario's camp game.

Other characters literally don't have the combination of tools that are so perfectly designed for exploiting a stage like Brinstar .

 

[Matador]

Dair is soooooo good for platform pressure...im literally gonna start smacking Mario mains with a newspaper if I see them not abusing this whenever possible.

 

[Inferno3044]

You really underestimate how rare it is to have a platform pressure option that frametraps jump out of shield in this game. It's actually quite uncommon. Most characters have to be grounded to have remotely effective platform pressure games, ones that actually can punish you for shielding.

Furthermore, Mario's projectile literally could not be better designed for camping and controlling Brinstar. Well I mean if it was made any better, it would be like Metaknight status broken on this stage.

Furthermore, most characters really don't have kill moves like Mario's. Mario's U-smash so happens to be fast and able cover entire platforms on this stage, and his B-throw is also viable. Like, yeah Luigi has a good U-smash and B-throw, but he doesn't have Mario's camp game.

Other characters literally don't have the combination of tools that are so perfectly designed for exploiting a stage like Brinstar .

It's not really that I underestimate things. It's more that I know that Mario is a bad character

 

[A2ZOMG]

This isn't a question about Mario's tier position. This is an analysis of how well he performs on Brinstar and what options he has to get the advantage. As unbelievable as it might sound, Mario's tools are in fact almost perfectly designed for playing one of the best control strategies in the game on Brinstar.

Falco is by far a much better character than Mario overall, but his options are GARBAGE on Brinstar. Specifically his jumps, his lasers, and the commitment he has using aerials to platform pressure on Brinstar, not to mention his once amazing edgetrap game is completely unremarkable on this stage. He suffers from having much less aerial mobility than most of the cast, to the extent where Up-B actually starts looking like a good option, and actually is one of his better options for not completely failing on Brinstar.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Dair is soooooo good for platform pressure...im literally gonna start smacking Mario mains with a newspaper if I see them not abusing this whenever possible.

I'm way ahead of ya, Matador.

 

[Juushichi]

I couldn't agree with the Brinstar write up any more.

I think DK should get a special notice for Brinstar hitlag craziness though. Couple that with the strange way that he covers Mario's options at times and it creates an interesting matchup. DK's disrespectful downsmash covers so many options on this stage, it's crazy.

Mario vs DK on Brinstar and Japes are some of the most fun ones ever. I guarantee it.

 

[Matador]

I would think DK would have a huge problem landing on any platform safely here.

And according to this, you're running away from him all match, lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I did lose to SRK's DK in tournament on Brinstar, but it was more like I ****ed up and got killed even though I was winning and playing better on that stage. I mean I got U-smashed out of all things on my last stock. Ugh...

Like, I definitely had control over this matchup due to the fact that I could camp and control the platforms really well, and also because I was pretty on point about getting free damage when DK was on the ledge.

I think Brinstar is definitely more favorable than average against DK though. It's MUCH easier to get up from the ledge against him, and again the smaller blastzone is something that's better for Mario.

 

[Inferno3044]

I was thinking of taking Will to Brinstar but for some reason I just wanted to play on RC. No idea why I wanted to.

 

[Juushichi]

I would think DK would have a huge problem landing on any platform safely here.

And according to this, you're running away from him all match, lol.

Me? Nah.

Ask Frenchman/AZ(who has a pocket DK), I play them both kinda aggressively. Mario gets ***** by DK trying to run away... and why would I run away from DK on Brinstar of all places?

That's not to say I play the matchup perfectly, though. I make a lot of mistakes. After all, I'm not a good player.

 

[Matador]

After all, I'm not a good player.

Yea...that's true...

But rly, the only thing we would have to deal with is his fullhop Bair beating fireballs and him punishing landings if we were running away all match.

Running away's not an air-tight strategy for Mario...of course not. But this stage offers him considerable buffs while using this strategy, according to A2's write-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Playing on Brinstar definitely requires you to be proactive, but you generally don't need to take as many risks to get the reward you need to win matches on this stage compared to most other characters. While for the most part you're trying to play keepaway, one of the most important reasons this stage is good for Mario is how the lava rises also more often than not help open up your opponent's defenses for you. And if your opponent wants to run away from you and move to the platforms to avoid your fireballs, you should also take advantage of that by making sure that you pressure them from below to teach them that being on a platform against Mario is not wise. Or heck, you can still opt to camp them from the top if they try to move to the side platforms to avoid lower level lava rises.

Playing a good keepaway game is generally easier when your opponent doesn't have really strong platform pressure strategies. The facts are is the VAST majority of the cast sucks at platform pressure on Brinstar, while Mario's platform pressure is still amazing. =)

It's pretty laughable how terrible Falco is on this stage. Like, I think I've actually put in a lot of effort into learning how to not get ***** by stages. But seriously, I'll tell this to you guys from the perspective of a Falco user. Falco's camp game, his platform pressure game, and his edgetrap game are just **** on completely by Brinstar. He can't do any of that stuff nearly as reliably or safely just because the platform layout is so awful for him, and he's also worse at taking advantage of the lava rises. The platform layout is so bad for Falco that his best option for pressuring the platforms literally is Up-B (which nobody does, except for me from what I can tell).

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

Brinstar is Mario's playground, guys. You all need to learn that right now. I didn't bother to read many of the previous posts, but lemme tell you something:

as A2 said, the platform layout is effin' perfect for Mario. You can, if the tethers are broken, ACE from all platforms back n forth. Quick way of getting around, allowing you to juggle characters, zone them out, or to be flashy as all hell . The destructible tethers allow for hitbox-extending your smashes to catch people off guard(be aware of that too).

The Lava is extra-godly for Mario. Caping people off of it at around 70%-ish percent kills em. Hecka whack, but funny as hell. The lava can also help us recover, seeing as how our recovery ain't exactly the best thing in the game... haha. Fludd people repeatedly into it for free damage, Spike em into it for a deadly spike > lava > Cape **** combo is hella beastly-looking.

characters that rely on camping will find it extra hard to do so here because of the platforms and size of the stage. TL, Falco, Snake(depending on their overall playstyle), and maybe Wolf... Not sure on the last one though.

Again back to what A2 said, fireballs I feel are great here. Using the terrain to manipulate the bouncing patterns of it to create a "Wall of Fire" is crazy. almost anywhere on the stage creates a sticky situation for the opponent to get to you. If I had pictures to photoshop and show where to throw fireballs at, It would better explain how awesome this stage is, guys. But for now all i can say is mess around with it and find out how wicked this place is for this goon - Mario.

Sorry... was doing this ******* late for me, so some info i'll come back and edit later.

 

[Matador]

Holy ****...I never thought to Fludd people while they were getting hit by lava...

Would it only hit em once?

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

FLUDD stops all knockback from lava(and all moves fyi) and if spaced right can repetitively pinch them between water and the lava. Kinda funny actually.

 

[Matador]

Im definitely gonna try CPing here more often. That's so awesome.

What's Mario's worst stage, lol? Besides Japes, of course...

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I think it depends on the character you're playing against to really determine that. But I would guess RC imo.

 

[Matador]

I thought we did well on RC?

 

[Inferno3044]

The FLUDD and cape things are extremely situational and shouldn't be the reason you CP this stage. And fireballs aren't hard to beat. Just hit them. A lot of moves can outprioritize them. Don't get me wrong, it's a great Mario stage but saying it's perfect for Mario makes it sound like a Mario should never lose on this stage which is overdoing it by far.

 

[Matador]

The FLUDD and cape things are extremely situational and shouldn't be the reason you CP this stage. And fireballs aren't hard to beat. Just hit them. A lot of moves can outprioritize them. Don't get me wrong, it's a great Mario stage but saying it's perfect for Mario makes it sound like a Mario should never lose on this stage which is overdoing it by far.

I mean, who does well on Brinstar? It's a short list.

And if we actually benefit from it (in more ways than just the Cape and Fludd tricks...you read A2's write-up, brah) then we automatically have an advantage by CPing here just from that.

I mean some of our advantages here are undeniable...Early Usmash and Bthrow kills, lava to help our recovery from time to time, platforms, and decent stage control...why not at least give it an honest shot?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I thought we did well on RC?

I think we do as well but like I said before its pretty much who are we against? lol I'm not going RC against MK and/or GW

 

[Matador]

Oh yea, definitely not.

Wouldn't go to Brinstar either vs those two *******s.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Never play on Brinstar against MK. Against G&W though it's not a horrible idea.

As a G&W user I personally don't understand why it's considered a good CP for him. Except for the fact that most of the cast hates the platform layout while he legitimately doesn't care. However you score kills a lot more easily on this stage than he does.

The FLUDD and cape things are extremely situational and shouldn't be the reason you CP this stage. And fireballs aren't hard to beat. Just hit them. A lot of moves can outprioritize them. Don't get me wrong, it's a great Mario stage but saying it's perfect for Mario makes it sound like a Mario should never lose on this stage which is overdoing it by far.

FULLHOP Fireballs are not easy to beat directly when spaced right. Believe it or not, most characters actually have trouble dealing with the angle at which you fire them from.

Camping on Brinstar or SV's platform does that for you and gives you even more flexibility in your fireball camping, given that you can mix up your positioning with SHs, moving back and forth a bit, etc.

And the stage is perfect for Mario. I'm not going to go into detail about people who have bad fundamentals or end up playing a Metaknight on this stage. I expect you to play with good fundamentals on this stage. Outside of Metaknight who is just stupid, Brinstar makes all of Mario's matchups better, and puts Falco, Wario, and the ICs directly into his favor. Slight advantage against Snake as well imo.

Im definitely gonna try CPing here more often. That's so awesome.

What's Mario's worst stage, lol? Besides Japes, of course...

I would personally vote between Japes and Lylat. Killing people in general is a chore on those stages, and you generally should be playing on BF for any advantages you get on Lylat.

 

[fromundaman]

Holy ****...I never thought to Fludd people while they were getting hit by lava...

Would it only hit em once?

Really? It's so good here and on Norfair!

I think we do as well but like I said before its pretty much who are we against? lol I'm not going RC against MK and/or GW

Or Kirby or D3 or Ike or Sonic or Jiggs... Actually, a lot of characters do better on RC than Mario. It's not that we do bad, but a lot of other characters just do better than us there.



Also, I wouldn't take ZSS to Brinstar either. She thrives on that stage.




Hmmm.... I don't know why, but I personally like Lylat. The platforms are in pretty good places, more ledge options, angles allow for 'wall of fire', and a good portion of the cast has trouble here. Our only potential problem is recovering, and honestly it doesn't feel *too* much worse than most other stages to me in that respect.

 

[Matador]

I think killing is the issue on Lylat, not really recovery.

 

[fromundaman]

True, but while that is a problem, all of the other factors allow me to rack damage safe-ish, which kind of offsets how hard it is to kill IMO. Just make sure you save your KO moves, because you will want them fresh there.

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, I would avoid ZS here.

How do you guys feel about taking Kirby here?

 

[fromundaman]

Ehhhh....

Kirby has some stuff on Brinstar, and Bair kills kind of early-ish, but I personally don't think it's that great of a stage. Some Kirbies love it, but I find he dies way too easily there (I've been killed at 40-60% by DK Uair a SH length above the top platform!) and most of what kirby does have is gimmicky (Infinite stone glitch, hide in the lava with stone, super long smashes (Especially Dsmash on the right side, which can hit both tentacle and cylinder at the same time and stay out damn near forever) and his inhale windbox can do the same thing as FLUDD when they bounce into it from the lava, though he has to be grounded for it to work.).
His advantages on the stage are that A) it's small, so he doesn't have to chase quite as much, B) His good aerial and grab game allow him good stage control on this stage, C) He has an instant UpB shockwave glitch on this stage, though it's kind of tough to aim, D) Kills early-ish, and Uthrow becomes a legit kill move E) He can shark, though he doesn't do it nearly as well as MK, and honestly he could do that on other stages too.

On the downside, Kirby dies at stupid low percents, and he can't really air-camp too well here.

TL:DR
I think Mario benefits from Brinstar more than Kirby, but Kirby does have some things to look out for there. Learn his tricks on the stage and you should be okay.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I can't really see what ZSS has on Mario that makes her special on Brinstar. She's honestly like Snake in that she has to make you screw up in order to do anything. You still have much better tools for controlling the stage than she does and Mario generally benefits from smaller blastzones more. Like honestly, what is she going to do if you platform camp? If you choose to shield and you angle shield well, she can't threaten you at all. Most of the cast really can't. Anyone else who is silly enough to think they can do the same back to Mario is only setting themselves up to lose (ESPECIALLY important against Wario. This is why I firmly believe he loses to Mario on Brinstar, and lucky for us, most Wario mains aren't in the habit of banning this stage).

The only characters (besides Metaknight) I find that can be particularly annoying for Mario to deal with on Brinstar are Jiggs, Luigi, G&W, and Olimar. In that they actually do adapt to the stage better than the rest of the cast in some way. Against everyone else there really isn't much of a question whether or not to CP Brinstar as long as they don't ban it.

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

I didn't say this stage, as a whole, is perfect for Mario, I said the platforms are. Also, did I forget to mention D-air kills here really early on one phase? When the lava forces you and your opponent to go to the uppermost platform or you have to be in the air... due to the low ceiling, you can D-air them or Up-B them. Either way it can kill, but I don't have accurate percents to give you guys. Anyone know by chance?