Welcome to Mario Land: The Mario Stage Discussion. Now Discussing: Frigate Orpheon

[Inferno3044]

Can we talk about what's really good on the stage besides debating whether we personally like it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Taking people who have less KO power than Mario to Lylat is good, given the high ceiling hinders their KOs more than it hinders you. Link and Sonic off the top of my head are good examples of characters who overall have less KO power than you do. Samus also has rather low KO power, but I feel gets a bit more out of the stage layout than you do which counterbalances that. ROB is the same story as Samus.

The spacies are annoying if you let them hit you a lot with their best KO moves, although they generally don't handle the terrain particularly well.

The ICs are great to take here given how much you need to platform camp against them. Taking DDD here to a lesser extent also works, though I think BF is better against him.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

A2, you contradict yourself...

 

[Inferno3044]

Honestly, I would have no problem taking people here that don't like slanted terrain.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2, you contradict yourself...

My points about stages are always the same. Multiple spaced platforms can be used for maneuverability and platform camping the ICs/DDD, but they also usually make KOs harder unless the stage is Brinstar since Brinstar *****. Low ceilings are almost always superior to high ceilings for Mario (and other characters with KO moves that are easy to set up reliably or characters who just need extra help scoring KOs in general). And Metaknight is dumb as hell.

 

[HeroMystic]

I missed the memo on Brinstar being Mario's best stage. Why exactly is that?

 

[Inferno3044]

I missed the memo on Brinstar being Mario's best stage. Why exactly is that?

It's really good for Mario because it's like BF but it's really bad for a lot of characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I missed the memo on Brinstar being Mario's best stage. Why exactly is that?

Low ceiling which means SUPER easy KOs with either U-smash, D-smash, B-throw, and even aerials if you're patient which Mario users by default have to be. Smashville spaced platforms except they're ALWAYS on the far sides meaning amazing fireball camping. Mario controls ALL the platforms amazingly well with D-air (SH D-air low platforms, fullhop D-air top platform). Plus Mario particularly benefits a TON from controlling the top platform while the lava rises, given that U-smash covers like the entire thing. He isn't really ***** by the lava either given he can Cape Stall to avoid the lava sometimes.

To give you an idea how much this stage benefits Mario, I believe Wario outright loses to Mario on Brinstar, and people usually say Wario does well on Brinstar, which frankly I don't understand as a Mario user.

For the record, Pierce a long time ago did suggest to me in a convo that Brinstar was in fact Mario's best stage.

 

[Inferno3044]

The fact that you said pierce a long time ago makes the point invalid. You don't know how much this guy changes his mind about the game. On the other hand I can see this as one of his best stages. I don't understand how a low ceiling helps smash since its a horizontal killing move. I can see this stage being good for wario because it emphasizes air game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The point is that the idea that Brinstar is amazing for Mario and most likely his best stage is not a new concept.

Low ceilings help all KO moves including horizontal KO moves because they limit the area you can DI towards, but I should correct myself by also stating that Brinstar's horizontal boundaries are also narrow. Generally speaking it's MUCH easier for Mario to score kills on Brinstar given he has a lot of great moves that benefit a lot from the smaller boundaries.

The real reason I'm not impressed with Wario on Brinstar is because quite frankly, his platform pressure game sucks. He only has the threat of Bite, and outside of that, he has nothing to threaten people who angle shield and jump out of shield. Furthermore his range actually is bad enough to give him trouble controlling the top platform during lava rises. His lack of a reliable vertical killer is also a pretty big deal (don't say U-air. That move should rarely ever hit you), and while he has good grab range, he can't really kill with his throws (F-throw sorta, but it's weaker than Mario's B-throw).

 

[Inferno3044]

Back to lylat

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lylat is essentially worse than BF for Mario except like vs the ICs, DDD, spacies, Sonic, Link, and Ganon. That's pretty much what matters.

 

[Inferno3044]

Who would you not want to take here/ban?

 

[HeroMystic]

Anyone who can exploit Mario's weaknesses on the ledge. More specifically, Ike.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't see why Ike or anyone else gets more out of edgetrapping Mario on Lylat. Though you probably just don't want to play Ike on Lylat just because the stage sucks for Mario's kills.

Taking Metaknight here sucks because his ledge game is even stronger on this stage, which is something you don't need. Granted, you should survive long if you don't try anything too risky, but it's not fun to see him sharking when it's already hard enough to edgetrap him. Then again it's hard to really recommend any stages against Metaknight.

Taking Snake to Lylat is extremely bad unless you're lucky enough to get a stock lead (good luck landing the kill against him). Most heavy hitters besides Ganon aren't fun to play on this stage either, such as DK, G&W, Bowser, Ike and to a lesser extent Wario, though mainly I would definitely avoid playing Snake on this stage.

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't see why Ike or anyone else gets more out of edgetrapping Mario on Lylat.

Mario in general has a hassle with getting up on the ledge, and the ledge tilting can cause problems. Cape stalling and Ledge-camping with Up-B is not as safe and leaves you more vulnerable. I've had problems with this before.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The ledge tilting in my experience USUALLY screws you when you stop paying attention to it. It's more of a thing that you just adapt to, rather than get hindered by it. Yes it's annoying to get gimped by the stage tilting, but it's completely avoidable and shouldn't actually hinder ledgestalling strategies.

The stage tilting is however actually interesting when playing against Falco for instance. When Falco SideBs, he retains RCO lag if he does not go into landing animation, which can happen if he SideBs into a slant.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Thats interesting

 

[Inferno3044]

I don't know what to rate it. I'll give it a 7 for now unless anyone thinks otherwise.

When I get things updated, Frigate will be next because it was asked about.

 

[Matador]

This stage increases the difficulty of so many match-ups for me...there's so much to worry about here.

Ban it vs ROB, obviously.

 

[HeroMystic]

This stage in it's entirety is to exploit Mario's edgeguarding. A very hit 'n miss stage. This stage can be useful vs Marth though.

The original form is very imbalanced towards certain MUs. Anyone that can practically fly is safe while anyone who can't, especially characters like Link and somewhat Ike (his vertical recovery is very good despite how vulnerable it is) will have problems here.

The second form is more balanced but has it's own special properties. The dip in the middle can stop laser camping, while Mario can still camp pretty well with fireballs on this stage. Fireball approaching is pretty much dead on this part of the stage though.

It's a very interesting stage. I kinda like it, but you really gotta know how to exploit it. Only worth it for some MUs. Just don't take Falco here. His laser camping will **** your face on the first form.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar gets owned on this stage...stage flip scatters his Pikmin, and the right side on first transformation is really easy to gimp him on.

Snake is annoying on this stage. Frigate against Snake is like Halberd, but without the advantages of being allowed to kill him significantly earlier and slightly less abuseable terrain. So basically taking Snake to frigate is asking for his grenade camping to become better for no reason (not that it matters a ton, but it's annoying).

Dunno, can't really say much else besides what has been said already.

Taking characters like Olimar Kirby, Ike, Link, Bowser, Ganon, and anyone else who is easy to edgeguard can be profitable on the first transformation's right side.

 

[fromundaman]

Olimar gets owned on this stage...stage flip scatters his Pikmin, and the right side on first transformation is really easy to gimp him on.

No, he absolutely does not. He gets more purples and yellows on this stage, which actually makes this a good Oli stage. I believe it was Logic who told me taking him here was like giving him a free CP.

Also...

Taking characters like Olimar Kirby, Ike, Link, Bowser, Ganon, and anyone else who is easy to edgeguard can be profitable on the first transformation's right side.

Taking characters like Olimar Kirby, Ike, Link, Bowser, Ganon, and anyone else who is easy to edgeguard

Olimar Kirby, Ike, Link, Bowser, Ganon,

Kirby

O.o
You enjoy handing out free CPs I see...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Olimar getting more Purples at any rate is hardly an issue if taking the first stock against him is easier to do, given that camping him on a stock lead is not hard.

Kirby is easy to edgeguard...his midair jumps are telegraphed and bad and his Up-B is even worse. The listing was of other characters who hate having to recover on the right side.

Forgot to mention that ZSS's and Lucario's recovery is also hurt quite a bit by the lack of an edge on the right side first transformation.

 

[Inferno3044]

Kirby really isn't easy to edgeguard because he has 5 jumps. Lucario is also really good here from what I've heard.

 

[fromundaman]

Lucario doesn't need that edge because of walljump on that same side.

Oli getting purples is ALWAYS a big deal. That stock lead is great, but you're giving him the tools to take that lead instead.

Kirby... lol. How exactly is he going to be in a position to gimp him on this stage? Kirby gimps Mario WAY harder than vice versa on frigate.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kirby really isn't easy to edgeguard because he has 5 jumps. Lucario is also really good here from what I've heard.

Having more jumps really doesn't do much to improve recovery. On the one hand he can stall a bit longer, which matters to a small extent, but his jumps are complete GARBAGE for actually avoiding offstage rushdown. On top of the fact that his aerials are bad at stopping people from edgeguarding him as well. Even if it's true that gimping Kirby can be a bit tricky, edgeguarding him in the strict definition of the term is actually easy, even more so given his susceptibility to juggles which makes recovering high for him a much weaker option.

Lucario doesn't need that edge because of walljump on that same side.

It's not something he can count on if you edgeguard him well.

Oli getting purples is ALWAYS a big deal. That stock lead is great, but you're giving him the tools to take that lead instead.

Not if you're platform camping. His answers to jump out of shield really aren't a threat.

Kirby... lol. How exactly is he going to be in a position to gimp him on this stage? Kirby gimps Mario WAY harder than vice versa on frigate.

Gimping isn't always the goal, but capitalizing on a bad position can be just as good. Given that Kirby is light and leaves himself EXTREMELY open when recovering, I'd say that taking him to Frigate does have its pluses on the first transformation. Not saying he doesn't have silly stuff on Mario as well, but I think when HeroMystic said Frigate is hit and miss, he summed it up best.

 

[fromundaman]

Having more jumps really doesn't do much to improve recovery. On the one hand he can stall a bit longer, which matters to a small extent, but his jumps are complete GARBAGE for actually avoiding offstage rushdown. On top of the fact that his aerials are bad at stopping people from edgeguarding him as well. Even if it's true that gimping Kirby can be a bit tricky, edgeguarding him in the strict definition of the term is actually easy, even more so given his susceptibility to juggles which makes recovering high for him a much weaker option.

It gives the option of recovering high. Yes, that does allow for a Usmash setup, but you know how cape stalling works. Well, Kirby can simply do that with his hammer (lesser extent) and/or jumps (much greater extent). My point is the only thing that *might* do is allow you to punish more landings. In exchange, you're bringing him to a stage where a single offstage Bair is a gimp.

It's not something he can count on if you edgeguard him well.

Please elaborate. Unless the platform is all the way down, Lucario is completely safe wallclinging, since Mario has nothing to hit him unless he misaims and his head is sticking up. From a walljump, a Fair, Nair, Bair or Uair will beat us out.

Not if you're platform camping. His answers to jump out of shield really aren't a threat.

There's only one platform, and it's not convenient for camping him due to where you have to position yourself to hit with projectiles + how well he can hit you with pikmin or UpB. BTW, it doesn't help when you give him a bunch of purples which go right through fireballs.

Gimping isn't always the goal, but capitalizing on a bad position can be just as good. Given that Kirby is light and leaves himself EXTREMELY open when recovering, I'd say that taking him to Frigate does have its pluses on the first transformation. Not saying he doesn't have silly stuff on Mario as well, but I think when HeroMystic said Frigate is hit and miss, he summed it up best.

My point is Mario is put in a WORSE situation than his opponents when you bring those characters to this stage. His main buff on this stage is an enhanced ability to gimp, but he is just as liable to suffer it. To a lesser extent, he can take advantage of landing lag slightly easier here, but again, that's everyone, not just him.

It's not a bad stage, but you can't bring just anyone there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It gives the option of recovering high. Yes, that does allow for a Usmash setup, but you know how cape stalling works. Well, Kirby can simply do that with his hammer (lesser extent) and/or jumps (much greater extent). My point is the only thing that *might* do is allow you to punish more landings. In exchange, you're bringing him to a stage where a single offstage Bair is a gimp.

It depends. Yeah if he manages to be far above Mario in the first place, then he can use midair jumps to stay out of juggle zones. If he's in range to be rushed down offstage, his jumps are not going to get him high in the first place, and his best option to avoid rushdown offstage likely requires him to retreat and stall, which alone doesn't exactly get him out of trouble.

Plus gimping Mario generally requires a (semi)spike provided he's careful about managing recovery resources. Though he only has one midair jump, standard midair jumps are significantly more powerful defensively than multiple midair jumps.

Please elaborate. Unless the platform is all the way down, Lucario is completely safe wallclinging, since Mario has nothing to hit him unless he misaims and his head is sticking up. From a walljump, a Fair, Nair, Bair or Uair will beat us out.

Part of the assumption with edgeguarding is that you will seize the opportunity when you see it. If you don't let Lucario get in the position where he can recover that way, then it's fine. Edgeguarding him like normal will probably gimp him just fine and leave him without the option of wall-clinging (if you think he's going to get cheeky with recovering extra low, harassing him with fireballs is an option). Him being able to wall-cling is only extra reward for you not successfully edgeguarding him, although it should go without saying that his walljump is in fact a punishable commitment. Angled F-smash for instance, a properly spaced OOS option or B-air are options you have there.

There's only one platform, and it's not convenient for camping him due to where you have to position yourself to hit with projectiles + how well he can hit you with pikmin or UpB. BTW, it doesn't help when you give him a bunch of purples which go right through fireballs.

True, you can't exactly camp Olimar back on Frigate that well on the platforms. It's mostly obvious when Olimar wants to Up-B you given the spacing required for it. All Pikmin colors can be reflected by Cape, which can put a break in Olimar's Pikmin tosses.

My point is Mario is put in a WORSE situation than his opponents when you bring those characters to this stage. His main buff on this stage is an enhanced ability to gimp, but he is just as liable to suffer it. To a lesser extent, he can take advantage of landing lag slightly easier here, but again, that's everyone, not just him.

It's not a bad stage, but you can't bring just anyone there.

I dunno, when it comes to Frigate, aside from the fact characters like G&W, Jigglypuff, Metaknight, and Pikachu don't care a whole lot about which stage you take them to, Frigate for other characters, including Mario, really more depends on which player gets the upper hand in the first place.

Yeah Mario doesn't like being on the losing end of a battle on Frigate, but the same goes for the characters I mentioned. I feel Frigate isn't so much a stage you want to counterpick to unless you know your opponent. More often it's a stage you want to ban against certain characters who clearly are hurt less by it.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario really isn't hard to gimp force him to use his jump and clip it. Honestly frigate differs mostly for the transformation with the ledge. This makes it bad for Mario because he need a ledge to recover. That is its good for characters that don't need a ledge to recover well (Mk, snake, g&w, yoshi, and sonic are some characters that I personally think of). Yeah its bad for olimar with that ledge but increased purple and yellows can balance it out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You do realize gimping practically EVERYONE not named Metaknight, Jiggs, G&W, Pikachu, or Samus is easy when you clip their jump? It's not unique to Mario at all. Forcing someone to get their jump clipped however is more about reading them extremely well. At any rate most times I get gimped as Mario require me to DI unusually poorly and get read for trying to Cape Stall edgehog attempts. The exact same can be said for recovering as Marth, but replace "Cape" with "Dancing Blade".

Also, Yoshi needs ledges to recover more than you're suggesting, especially compared to characters like Pikachu and Jiggs, although that's aside the point.

 

[fromundaman]

You do realize gimping practically EVERYONE not named Metaknight, Jiggs, G&W, Pikachu, or Samus is easy when you clip their jump? It's not unique to Mario at all. Forcing someone to get their jump clipped however is more about reading them extremely well. At any rate most times I get gimped as Mario require me to DI unusually poorly and get read for trying to Cape Stall edgehog attempts.

I would replace Samus with Kirby, Sonic and Pit, but yeah, he has a point. It can happen, but it really shouldn't unless you have bad DI or get hit with a move that has a lot of horizontal KB (Kirby has a decent number of those, whereas Mario really only has a couple, and they're not particularly good/effective for putting someone in a gimping position, which is part of why I say not to bring him to Frigate vs Kirby. Kirby also has stage jankiness here (Although, this stage has insta-killed me for using air hammer one time. It was weird.).).
Usually, my Mario lives until about 160% average unless I mess up my DI or get hit by something retardedly strong.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus's recovery is both longer ranged and more versatile than Kirby's given better airspeed, the tether recovery, Morph Ball Bomb Jumps, and a far superior Up-B, so hitting her out of her midair jump rarely ever matters. Pit does get to glide and essentially fly though (and hitting him out of his Up-B is reasonably uncommon in most matchups). Sonic actually does NOT like getting hit out of his jumps or recovery moves at all, although it's rarely an issue given he usually isn't in range to be edgeguarded.

 

[fromundaman]

I... I really don't know how to respond to that. That is wrong on so many levels. Clipping Samus' jump means she has NO vertical and she can't do anything out of bomb jumps.
Sonic has to be really far out for him not to come back with just UpB.

Also why is Jiggs a character who doesn't mind getting her jumps clipped but not Kirby, when their recoveries are near identical, with Kirby having more horizontal and a UpB. I'm not trying to be character biased (I actually think Kirby is worse than what people think, but yeah), and Kirby is gimpable, but Mario doesn't send him at the right angle to gimp him most of the time. Hell, I've recovered vs MKs that clipped 3-4 of my jumps, but failed to get the last one XD

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus's Up-B and drift distance is so much better than Kirby's that clipping her jump hardly matters. Aside from the other problems Samus has as a character, recovering even after taking hits in virtually any situation offstage is not one of them.

Jiggs recovery is NOT comparable to Kirbys. She gets a ton more distance and versatility on her recovery than Kirby. Plain and simple. She gets far better drift distance, her SideB is a MUCH better recovery move than anything Kirby has, note that it gives her a theoretically infinite recovery. On top of the fact she has better options for attacking people who try to edgeguard her.

 

[fromundaman]

This is going nowhere and getting way off topic. If you want to discuss this further then we can take it to Skype, though I doubt that'll get anywhere either.

If you want to bring Kirby to Frigate, go ahead. I'm sure I won't be the only Kirby to thank you for it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

To put it simply, I would ban Frigate against a fairly high number of characters. Kirby isn't one of them. I would more likely want to ban a generic high ceiling stage such as Lylat against a character like Kirby if I had to choose.

 

[Flameleon]

-Frigate is bad for us but work in it to overcome that weakness and surprise your enemy...-

 

[Famous]

Frigid is pretty decent...I took hylian/kid goggles here in pools...I never counterpicked Frigate Orphen before either o.o

 

[Inferno3044]

The 2nd transformation isn't bad for Mario. It's mainly the one that you start on that is the problem and there are definitely better stages.