Welcome to Mario Land: The Mario Stage Discussion. Now Discussing: Frigate Orpheon

[Jimmyfosho]

This stage is literally just used as a camping stage like the rest of us have already said because no1 is dumb enough/ confident enough to fight on the transformations.

 

[Inferno3044]

I guess Jimmy is right. PS1 is a stage that doesn't really hinder or boost anybody. It's a lot about knowing how the mechanics work on the stage.

Since there's not really much to discuss about it, we can move on to YI.

 

[UberMario]

It's not really one of Mario's better choices for a counterpick IMO, but it seems to be good against CG'ers on the slopes and projectile users that are dependent on open spaces. The angle of the ground is really good for the fireballs, Mario can walljump out of the pit, and the Turn Blocks can easily be used for UThrow/UTilt/USmash > jab locks > near-infinite slope jab locks, that is, if you can land it.

I know that the Halberd talk is over, but it's possible to do an upward KO with Super Jump Punch if you do it in the air against light-to-medium characters, I've done it a few times, you'll probably catch them off guard doing that, too.

 

[Inferno3044]

It's not really one of Mario's better choices for a counterpick IMO, but it seems to be good against CG'ers on the slopes and projectile users that are dependent on open spaces. The angle of the ground is really good for the fireballs, Mario can walljump out of the pit, and the Turn Blocks can easily be used for UThrow/UTilt/USmash > jab locks > near-infinite slope jab locks, that is, if you can land it.

I know that the Halberd talk is over, but it's possible to do an upward KO with Super Jump Punch if you do it in the air against light-to-medium characters, I've done it a few times, you'll probably catch them off guard doing that, too.

I highly disagree. I think this is a great CP and personally my favorite stage. There is no character I won't take here. The only thing that isn't that good for Mario is the higher blast zones. Because of this I really can't think of that many characters you should CP but Zelda comes to mind. MK is also good to take here so he can't scrooge under the stage. I can't think of anyone to ban this against. Maybe Sonic because he is apparently invincible during spin dash on slopes (which is basically the whole stage). Lucario and Olimar also really do well here, but I wouldn't ban it against them because there are different stages you should ban against them.

 

[UberMario]

I highly disagree. I think this is a great CP and personally my favorite stage. There is no character I won't take here. The only thing that isn't that good for Mario is the higher blast zones. Because of this I really can't think of that many characters you should CP but Zelda comes to mind. MK is also good to take here so he can't scrooge under the stage. I can't think of anyone to ban this against. Maybe Sonic because he is apparently invincible during spin dash on slopes (which is basically the whole stage). Lucario and Olimar also really do well here, but I wouldn't ban it against them because there are different stages you should ban against them.

I didn't say he was bad at it, I'd just rather take them to Port Town, Norfair, PS2, or FD, but it's not really good for him against characters with disjoints, such as Lucario, Olimar, and even Toon Link, which he would fair better against on a more spacious field. I could see it being a good CP against ROB or Fox though.

 

[Inferno3044]

Where do you go that has Norfair and Port Town legal

 

[Jimmyfosho]

The midwest usually has the stagelist with the most legal stages.

 

[A2ZOMG]

YI is a fair stage. It's horrible for Ganon, so if you want to be cruel to him, take him there. This stage is also decent against Fox and Falco, given the incline is an option for dealing with their camping (helps a LOT for ducking under lasers).

Also DK is kinda annoying on this stage since the layout and the ledges are good for him.

6/10.

And btw, you definitely should CP Olimar at PS1. Besides Frigate, it's your best stage against him giving you both platforms and a TON of running space. Besides that, it's meh.

 

[Calebyte]

What makes YI bad for Ganon?

 

[Inferno3044]

I've been told YI is bad for Ganon. It's also bad for Yoshi

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon's autocancels are ruined when he tries to go up the slopes on YI. If he likes retreat D-airs, you can force him to stop spamming those by simply taking him to YI.

 

[-Sensei-]

I take Diddys to Yoshi's Island. It's harder for them to recover there because they have to be more precise to sweetspot the ledge.

 

[SKidd]

Mario has to be careful on YI, because he can't rely on fireball (setups) as much; spacing is important here.

Ganon sucks on YI, yeah.

If the Diddy relies on naners most of the time, I might take him to YI, and true, it is harder for Diddy to recover here.

As for Yoshi, I don't think it's too bad for him here, ghost platform can save him, he still has jab/back air/eggs(kinda)/most of his other moves.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

About PS1, you can ledgedrop -> walljumps -> aerial back onto the stage, and if you time it properly it auto cancels right away.

I'll get a replay of it, but I don't have a capture device so it'll have to be from my ipod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taiZ4Bebs5o
Messed up a few times, but you get the idea.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario has to be careful on YI, because he can't rely on fireball (setups) as much; spacing is important here.

Ganon sucks on YI, yeah.

If the Diddy relies on naners most of the time, I might take him to YI, and true, it is harder for Diddy to recover here.

As for Yoshi, I don't think it's too bad for him here, ghost platform can save him, he still has jab/back air/eggs(kinda)/most of his other moves.

Deltacod told me it's not a good stage for yoshi.

 

[A2ZOMG]

YI probably interferes a lot with Yoshi's egg strategies. The platform isn't doing him any favors either in terms of how he maneuvers around it. What I don't yet know enough about is how his Down-B interacts with the sloped terrain.

 

[Inferno3044]

YI probably interferes a lot with Yoshi's egg strategies. The platform isn't doing him any favors either in terms of how he maneuvers around it. What I don't yet know enough about is how his Down-B interacts with the sloped terrain.

If the slope is a ledge I'm pretty sure he'll fall down. That's what he does on Brinstar if you make the platform slanted.

Anyways, any final words about it? Ratings? Characters to CP/ban?

 

[Calebyte]

I don't have a lot to add. This is a good place to take the spacies, particularly Falco. Wall jumping gives us an extra ledge mix up. Otherwise it's pretty meh, 6/10 overall.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah I almost forgot, the option of walljump actually does save my life here and there when I play on this stage.

 

[Inferno3044]

OK. The information is up for YI. Since Halberd was brought up earlier, that will be the next one we discuss.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Halberd is really really good for Mario. Most of the KOs Mario score are generally vertical, and his U-smash is one of the easiest vertical KO moves in the game to land.

Camping under the center of the stage is really effective. SH fireballs aimed at the incline will bounce upwards and create a wall that can be really annoying to approach past. As usual, SH D-air lets you poke at people from below the platform as well.

If Snake bans Brinstar against you, this stage honestly benefits you a lot more than it benefits him. Low ceilings are MUCH more helpful for a KO move like Mario's U-smash than Snake's U-tilt, which not only Mario can set up into juggles better, but the difference of percent needed for a weaker KO move to kill on a low ceiling is significantly greater than the difference of percent needed for a strong KO move like Snake's U-tilt to kill. Snake's U-tilt is only going to kill you like 10 or so % earlier, while your U-smash will kill him like 20 % earlier.

Characters I wouldn't take to Halberd...Luigi, ROB, and Metaknight. Luigi unlike Snake is a character who has multiple vertical KO options that are all fairly easy to apply. Getting randomly killed by Luigi's U-air, N-air, U-smash, D-smash, and other stuff isn't fun.

I find ROB particularly tedious to approach on Halberd given the way the platform can protect approach options, and having ROB's stupid N-air (and even his U-throw) kill earlier is pretty unfun given how many ways he can land it.

And Metaknight is Metaknight, and sharking sucks.

Outside of that, Halberd is overall a pretty solid stage to consider.

8/10

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Halberd...

Fair to Up-B kill. Do it.

 

[Inferno3044]

Halberd is really really good for Mario. Most of the KOs Mario score are generally vertical, and his U-smash is one of the easiest vertical KO moves in the game to land.

Camping under the center of the stage is really effective. SH fireballs aimed at the incline will bounce upwards and create a wall that can be really annoying to approach past. As usual, SH D-air lets you poke at people from below the platform as well.

If Snake bans Brinstar against you, this stage honestly benefits you a lot more than it benefits him. Low ceilings are MUCH more helpful for a KO move like Mario's U-smash than Snake's U-tilt, which not only Mario can set up into juggles better, but the difference of percent needed for a weaker KO move to kill on a low ceiling is significantly greater than the difference of percent needed for a strong KO move like Snake's U-tilt to kill. Snake's U-tilt is only going to kill you like 10 or so % earlier, while your U-smash will kill him like 20 % earlier.

Characters I wouldn't take to Halberd...Luigi, ROB, and Metaknight. Luigi unlike Snake is a character who has multiple vertical KO options that are all fairly easy to apply. Getting randomly killed by Luigi's U-air, N-air, U-smash, D-smash, and other stuff isn't fun.

I find ROB particularly tedious to approach on Halberd given the way the platform can protect approach options, and having ROB's stupid N-air (and even his U-throw) kill earlier is pretty unfun given how many ways he can land it.

And Metaknight is Metaknight, and sharking sucks.

Outside of that, Halberd is overall a pretty solid stage to consider.

8/10

Halberd is not good vs. Snake. First of all, you should rarely be killing Snake off the top because he's so fat. Much easier to edgeguard or kill off the side. Also giving heavy hitters the powers to kill you at lower percentages is just bad. That being said, I think you should never take a heavy hitter here. I'd ban this vs. Bowser, Ganon, Snake, and Ike. DK and Fox are characters you shouldn't take here, but there are other stages you should ban against them.

Also, you missed possibly the most important character to ban this against: Olimar. Usmash is already an strong reliable kill move. Add increased purple pikmin and you're asking to die. Regardless of what you think, Halberd is a very good stage for Snake and they ban it vs. Olimar.

I gtg to class so I will repost with more information after.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think you don't know the Snake matchup at all. Killing Snake vertically is really good, just a lot of Mario's do it wrong.

You can legitimately kill Snake from like 130-140% with uncharged Up-smash on this stage. This is huge, since you no longer have to wait til 155-160 to kill him which is like over a 20% difference, which means 2-3 less hits to kill him (your average damage per attack ranges from like 7-11% depending on playstyle). He kills you at like 100% on most other stages with U-tilt, while he only kills you like at 90% on Halberd. Not a huge difference, since for Snake that's like .5 less hits in order to set up KO percents (given that Snake does like on average 15% per attack).

Most of the heavy hitters are actually the characters you WANT to take to this stage. Most of them have situational but powerful KO moves. Getting killed by them is more about making a mistake, rather than the size of the stage. For Mario however, the size of the stage matters a lot more for him since his kills are easier to set up into.

And Halberd is super overrated for Snake, except there's a bunch of characters who really just don't like that stage. Snake wants maximum survivability since he thrives on his opponent making mistakes, so larger stages benefit him significantly more due to how KO percents share a linear relationship with stage size. Barely killing earlier is not a huge deal for him.

I can agree that Olimar is very annoying to deal with on Halberd since he has quite a few KO moves that appreciate the low ceiling boost (his throws are what I would complain about more than U-smash), but it honestly goes both ways. You both set up kills really easily on each other. KO percent wise though, it's still more beneficial for Mario.

Low ceilings BALANCE KO percents. You need to get this through your head, since this is why low ceilings are amazing for Mario. Killing with Mario is easy. Dealing enough damage is the hard part.

 

[Inferno3044]

I think you don't know the Snake matchup at all. Killing Snake vertically is really good, just a lot of Mario's do it wrong.

You can legitimately kill Snake from like 130-140% with uncharged Up-smash on this stage. This is huge, since you no longer have to wait til 155-160 to kill him which is like over a 20% difference, which means 2-3 less hits to kill him (your average damage per attack ranges from like 7-11% depending on playstyle). He kills you at like 100% on most other stages with U-tilt, while he only kills you like at 90% on Halberd. Not a huge difference, since for Snake that's like .5 less hits in order to set up KO percents (given that Snake does like on average 15% per attack).

Most of the heavy hitters are actually the characters you WANT to take to this stage. Most of them have situational but powerful KO moves. Getting killed by them is more about making a mistake, rather than the size of the stage. For Mario however, the size of the stage matters a lot more for him since his kills are easier to set up into.

And Halberd is super overrated for Snake, except there's a bunch of characters who really just don't like that stage. Snake wants maximum survivability since he thrives on his opponent making mistakes, so larger stages benefit him significantly more due to how KO percents share a linear relationship with stage size. Barely killing earlier is not a huge deal for him.

I can agree that Olimar is very annoying to deal with on Halberd since he has quite a few KO moves that appreciate the low ceiling boost (his throws are what I would complain about more than U-smash), but it honestly goes both ways. You both set up kills really easily on each other. KO percent wise though, it's still more beneficial for Mario.

Low ceilings BALANCE KO percents. You need to get this through your head, since this is why low ceilings are amazing for Mario. Killing with Mario is easy. Dealing enough damage is the hard part.

Killing with Mario isn't easy. Mario's Dsmash and Usmash basically have to be fresh to kill. If they're fresh yeah they can be pretty good, but to have to not use the move in order to kill with it doesn't make it a good kill move. The lack of range on both moves also makes it not good. Fsmash is a good kill move though. Btw, there's no way it can kill 20% less mathematically. The ceiling raises or decreases the percentage needed to kill by x%. According to your numbers, Mario Usmash will kill about 15% less. Also, you have to think about the MU. It's hard to land those low range Dsmash's and Usmash's because he should be outside of your range able to safely hit you with ftilt or utilt.

Heavy hitters have reliable kill moves. Snake's and D3's Utilt are very reliable. DK's Dsmash(might be a different move but I know he has one) is reliable. A good amount of Luigi's moves can hit and kill. Most of the other normally aren't good characters like Bowser, Ganon, and Ike, which I'd rather not let their move kill me even earlier.

Personally, I would wanna take characters that are light and/or have low vertical kill power. Characters that come to mind personally are Jiggs, PT, (Squirtle and Ivysaur die fairly early, but charizard can be bad), Samus, Sonic, Kirby, Falco and Peach. Marth and Sheik aren't bad either.

And in contrast ban characters that have high vertical kill power: Luigi, Snake, ROB, Olimar, Ike, Bowser, Ganon.

Characters I wouldn't CP here are MK for sharking and other strong characters that have other stages you should ban like Fox and DK.

G&W is something I don't know. He kills stupidly low, but his kill moves are fairly slow and he's stupidly light

 

[A2ZOMG]

Inferno, let me put it this way

If a ceiling is twice as high, then it literally takes twice as much percent to kill on that stage, not taking into account momentum canceling, which further skews KO percents.

This means weak but easy to land KO moves benefit the most from small ceilings. Less room to momentum cancel, and mathematically they benefit the most from the low ceiling. Think for a moment how Super Sudden Death works. Exact same principle for the most part, just an extreme example. Anything that makes moves kill earlier is much more beneficial for weak and easy to land KO moves.

It's easy to land U-smash on Snake. Get him above you, and juggle him, which is easy to do since you can U-smash out of dash and charge U-smash to hit him out of landing frames. It's GONNA happen if you have good spacing. D-smash can be used on Snake occasionally out of shield against F-tilt depending on spacing. You can also use D-smash pretty easily on Snake to juggle him as well.

Snake and D3's U-tilts aren't what I call reliable. They kill really early, but they have no real setups into them most of the time. They're good punishers, but it's something they can't rely on for killing earlier on a smaller stage. Besides, they don't really benefit as much from the small ceiling in the first place, so getting killed SLIGHTLY earlier by those moves hardly matters. When they hit you with those moves, it's pretty much because you effed up.

DK's D-smash is pretty much in a similar situation, except it's slower and massively unsafe on block/whiff. He doesn't really set up into it very well for the most part and he can't really just throw it out against someone who spaces intelligently.

Luigi's KO moves are different. He has a lot of vertical launchers that are easy for him to set up into, so he actually benefits from Halberd significantly more.

Ganon, Ike, Bowser, and G&W's vertical killers are of little concern on Halberd. Not only do they not really kill you any earlier, they're situational enough that it really doesn't matter.

It isn't the KO power that is the issue. The APPLICATION of the vertical killer is what matters. Smaller ceilings are much more fair KO percent wise than large ceilings. Want Snake to literally survive to 200% for landing a FRESH U-smash on Japes while he still kills you at like 115%? You don't want to play Snake on a stage with a larger ceiling period.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'll admit some of your points are valid. At least with the weight. You lost me with Snake's Utilt not being reliable. It has such stupid range that it doesn't need a set up. Mario's Usmash has no reliable setup either. Basically any strong character that reliably kills off the top I wouldn't take here.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Inferno, instead of suggesting that Mario camps Snake easily, which is false, what is a valid point is that as long as you're not committing to anything stupid, Snake is very easy to not get hit by.

You have to basically run into Snake like an idiot for him to land U-tilt. Granted, he has tricky ways of convincing you to run towards him like an idiot, but Snake ONLY KILLS YOU WHEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE. This just goes for how he kills you in general with all his moves.

He has no real tools for creating openings of his own besides his Jab and grab, which both require you to be really close to him, which is something he can't guarantee safely. It's obvious where and when he will U-tilt. Actually not getting U-tilted by Snake is pretty simple. Don't **** up. If you're playing a really safe bait and spacing game, Snake really shouldn't feasibly be landing U-tilt on you while you poke him into KO damage. It should also be noted that while it's fairly hard for Mario to punish on block, it's not exactly a move he likes whiffing.

The probability that Snake benefits at all from Halberd's ceiling in short is extremely low. When Snake kills you with U-tilt, unless you play outstandingly horrible against him, he's probably killing you at the same percents he usually does, since getting killed by Snake is not a question of percent, but a question of how many times you screw up as a player.

Killing Snake on the other hand with a character like Mario is very much a question of percent. Landing the KO move on Snake is easy, because you have virtually safe confirmable setups into it. Dealing the damage to him is a chore, because depending on what happens, you're inevitably going to make mistakes in the process of dealing that damage, so the less damage you need to deal to Snake, the better off you are.

Snake kills early and he punishes effectively. This does not mean he kills reliably. In order to play against Snake well, you simply need to take advantage of the fact that he's limited and relies on you making fundamentally avoidable mistakes, and he especially relies on capitalizing on mistakes to score kills. Being allowed to kill him earlier is one way of indirectly limiting the number of times you put yourself in bad positions.

 

[Matador]

Im siding with A2Z on this one.

You definitely have to be perfect with your spacing if CP'd by Snake to Halberd.

 

[Inferno3044]

If you were just able to play against Snake super safe and win, Snake wouldn't be a good character. My point is that a low ceiling boosts characters that generally kill vertically such as Snake, Luigi, and Fox. That is why you don't wanna take them there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake sucks. =P

It just sucks even more to make small mistakes against him. You're not winning against Snake period if you play poorly against him due to his obnoxiously imbalanced risk reward setup.

Stages like Halberd that have small ceilings simply even the playing field, making your hits matter more. If every tournament match of Mario vs Snake was played in Super Sudden Death, the matchup would probably be slight advantage Mario. It's just a statement as to how limited Snake is and how much he depends on player mistakes to do anything. Anything that makes moves KO earlier doesn't really help Snake very much. For a character like Mario where the difficulty of battle is in dealing enough damage to set up KOs, getting a boost to KO power is a HUGE deal.

 

[Omari]

Agree with A2ZOMG regarding his Halberd (HB) argument. Inferno, IMO he wants to realize the difference between making bad or worse decisions (similar to what I explained to you about camping Meta Knight (MK)). Inferno, lets think outside the box regarding low ceilings. Would you rather worry about Snake's up-tilt killing you earlier then default opposed to you puttin' in more work killing him on certain stages? IDK about you all, but I'd like to put in less work (work meaning damage not auto-pilot...constant thinking). As far as Snake being stupid A2ZOMG? No. In terms of brawling Snake (on HB & in general) what method(s) would you guys suggest how to brawl against Snake? Poke/Punish, Smart-Aggro, Camp (effectively), what? IMO, Poke/Punish, then Smart-Aggro followed with Mind games when brawling Snake on HB. Once you get a lead then will be able to camp (then poke/punish accordingly). Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[Matt07]

Wow, A2's description of not how to fight Snake...is how I play the match-up, and get my *** kicked .

 

[Inferno3044]

Inferno, instead of suggesting that Mario camps Snake easily, which is false, what is a valid point is that as long as you're not committing to anything stupid, Snake is very easy to not get hit by.

You have to basically run into Snake like an idiot for him to land U-tilt. Granted, he has tricky ways of convincing you to run towards him like an idiot, but Snake ONLY KILLS YOU WHEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE. This just goes for how he kills you in general with all his moves.

You're acting like he can't properly space Utilt. It's not a hard move at all to land. Especially since it significantly outranges everything Mario has except I think Stutter step Fsmash.

He has no real tools for creating openings of his own besides his Jab and grab, which both require you to be really close to him, which is something he can't guarantee safely. It's obvious where and when he will U-tilt. Actually not getting U-tilted by Snake is pretty simple. Don't **** up. If you're playing a really safe bait and spacing game, Snake really shouldn't feasibly be landing U-tilt on you while you poke him into KO damage. It should also be noted that while it's fairly hard for Mario to punish on block, it's not exactly a move he likes whiffing.

Snake doesn't need an opening. He can just bust it out because it has stupid range.

The probability that Snake benefits at all from Halberd's ceiling in short is extremely low. When Snake kills you with U-tilt, unless you play outstandingly horrible against him, he's probably killing you at the same percents he usually does, since getting killed by Snake is not a question of percent, but a question of how many times you screw up as a player.

Yes. The only reason anybody loses to a Snake is because they're bad and make tons of mistakes. Not because Snake is a good character.

Killing Snake on the other hand with a character like Mario is very much a question of percent. Landing the KO move on Snake is easy, because you have virtually safe confirmable setups into it. Dealing the damage to him is a chore, because depending on what happens, you're inevitably going to make mistakes in the process of dealing that damage, so the less damage you need to deal to Snake, the better off you are.

Snake kills early and he punishes effectively. This does not mean he kills reliably. In order to play against Snake well, you simply need to take advantage of the fact that he's limited and relies on you making fundamentally avoidable mistakes, and he especially relies on capitalizing on mistakes to score kills. Being allowed to kill him earlier is one way of indirectly limiting the number of times you put yourself in bad positions.

Or Snake can just hit you. I don't know why you think Snake is some low tier garbage character. And his killing is reliable. If he wasn't reliable at killing, his opponents would be easily living to 150+ each stock. Doesn't Mario's opponents live to that percentage.

Snake sucks. =P

It just sucks even more to make small mistakes against him. You're not winning against Snake period if you play poorly against him due to his obnoxiously imbalanced risk reward setup.

Stages like Halberd that have small ceilings simply even the playing field, making your hits matter more. If every tournament match of Mario vs Snake was played in Super Sudden Death, the matchup would probably be slight advantage Mario. It's just a statement as to how limited Snake is and how much he depends on player mistakes to do anything. Anything that makes moves KO earlier doesn't really help Snake very much. For a character like Mario where the difficulty of battle is in dealing enough damage to set up KOs, getting a boost to KO power is a HUGE deal.

It really wouldn't be. Snake can space on Mario and then hits on shield are safe. Also you don't make sense. If Mario can just play safe and win, then Mario should beat Snake.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Like I said before, Mario is being played by Chuck Norris.
This is a CHARACTER match up discussion, not a PLAYER match up discussion. "You lose because you did not massively outplay him." is not a good argument, and will not help players improve.
You can almost switch Mario and Snake in your posts, and it would still be "valid" according to you.

Inferno, instead of suggesting that Snake camps Mario easily, which is false, what is a valid point is that as long as you're not committing to anything stupid, Mario is very easy to not get hit by.

You have to basically run into Mario like an idiot for him to land Up-smash. Granted, he has tricky ways of convincing you to run towards him like an idiot, but Mario ONLY KILLS YOU WHEN YOU MAKE A MISTAKE. This just goes for how he kills you in general with all his moves.

Mario has no real tools for creating openings of his own besides his Jab and grab, which both require you to be really close to him, which is something Mario can't guarantee safely. It's obvious where and when he will Up-smash. Actually not getting Up-smashed by Mario is pretty simple. Don't **** up. If you're playing a really safe bait and spacing game, Mario really shouldn't feasibly be landing Up-Smash on you while you poke him into KO damage. It should also be noted that while it's fairly hard for Snake to punish on block, it's not exactly a move he likes whiffing.

The probability that Mario benefits at all from Halberd's ceiling in short is extremely low. When Mario kills you with Up-smash, unless you play outstandingly horrible against him, he's probably killing you at the same percents he usually does, since getting killed by Mario is not a question of percent, but a question of how many times you screw up as a player.

Killing Mario on the other hand with a character like Snake is very much a question of percent. Landing the KO move on Mario is easy, because you have virtually safe confirmable setups into it. Dealing the damage to him is a chore, because depending on what happens, you're inevitably going to make mistakes in the process of dealing that damage, so the less damage you need to deal to Snake, the better off you are.

 

[Inferno3044]

Only sentences I disagree with in Jux's variation:

It should also be noted that while it's fairly hard for Snake to punish on block, it's not exactly a move he likes whiffing. Snake doesn't have trouble punishing a block

Killing Mario on the other hand with a character like Snake is very much a question of percent. Snake has no trouble racking damage. Most people also don't wanna die at 90.

Can we talk about the stage instead of Snake?

 

[-Sensei-]

This is a CHARACTER match up discussion, not a PLAYER match up discussion. "You lose because you did not massively outplay him." is not a good argument, and will not help players improve.

This.

Matchup discussions are about the character's options against the other character. Snake's weight and vertical kill power alone are enough of a reason to NOT take him to halberd.

As for the stage itself, I don't really play on it too much. Only info I can give is basic and probably already known. Don't forget to SDI the laser if you get caught in it. Aim to control the bottom middle part of the stage. I would not recommend this stage against characters with high vertical kill power (Snake, Luigi, Olimar, Fox, Dedede) and characters that can shark (Metaknight, Pit).

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Watch for that mechanical claw, hits me almost every time.

 

[SKidd]

One time I was playing a Jigglypuff on Halberd who I dsmashed offstage, then claw hit me in the direction of Jiggs, and Jiggs back air'd me and killed me. I was so mad.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

At my first tourney, Kage was there and he got his last stock taken by the claw, which kicked him out of losers.