Weekly Character Discussion: Ganondorf

[hippochinfat!!]

Count me as two. ^^

Honestly Ganondorf isn't that bad. I think he's just low tier material.

Characters I think are worse than Ganondorf:
Ivysaur (can't do damage, telegraphed kill options, no recovery)
Sonic (can't win in priority, and can't kill)
Captain Falcon (can't win in priority, can't grab, and can't kill)

I think of Ganondorf a lot like Melee G&W. He is great at offense, but his defense is godawful. Oh yeah and his recovery is lousy. I see much correlation lol.

Are you joking about Ivysaur being bad and not being able to rack up damage? Bullet Seed already does massive damage and his other moves do pretty decent damage and his range is great so it's not like a bunch of his attacks are hard to land.

 

[joenopride]

I love Ganon, honestly. He's too much fun to play as. Every move is a kill move!

Side-B is very important for controlling the pace of the game. There is usually a guaranteed follow-up for some moves after side-B, and of course you can always techchase into another side-B. If you think you have super prediction, you can throw out an f-smash and watch the opponent fly! Dsmash is worth risking throwing out too, because there is maybe 1 or 2 ways that your opponent can avoid it: rolling away from you or using invincibility frames to avoid the first/second hit. A great trick I use for the side-b is to sh it sometimes, because the "rhythm" of the attack is different enough from a standing side-b it can throw your opponent off.

The options for killing are crazy. Like I said earlier, virtually every move is a kill move. Even at earlier percents it's easy to get kills by knocking the opponent off the stage with fair, ftilt, bair, jab, whatever and then RAR'ing a uair to create a reverse uair spike. Usmash's knockback is pretty awesome, and it can be thrown out there without too much worry about cool-down lag.

Dair auto-cancel is great. It's pretty much useless online, because input lag spikes really mess up the timing, but if you can get it going consistently it's one of Ganon's best moves. It's decent for shield pressure because it'll take a fair chunk out of the shield and you can throw in a jab or dtilt to poke through or break the shield, or just hop around like crazy with a great damage dealer at your feet.

Wizard's foot isn't completely useless! Startup lag isn't bad, but the ending lag isn't great so it needs to be used closer to the opponent. If you SH down-b, you'll "punch" the ground and knock your opponent up in the air, opening up most of Dorf's aerials.

Really, I have a lot of fun playing Ganondorf. Killing people at a low percent with a dash attack is just too good.

That's about all I can think of. I'll maybe edit more in later.

 

[Ayato]

He is great at offense, but his defense is godawful.

Now, before I refute this remark, let me note that my concept of "defense" in Brawl and the SSB series may be different from yours. For clarification, I'm talking about passive-aggressive play, as there are few situations in this game where you can be ENTIRELY defensive.

In my experience with Ganon, he (like a majority of the Brawl cast, perhaps this is inspired by the new game mechanics) plays best when used "defensively." He's a momentum character, which means you need to watch out for that one opening and let your pseudo-combos roll forward from there. Because of his sluggishness on the ground and general startup lag on ground moves (dash attack and jab being the exceptions here), he lacks the ability to play aggressively for the match's entirety. However, he plays aggressively in short bursts, meaning short stretches of time in which Ganon can force the opponent to play at his pace. This is best accomplished by waiting for the right moment to do any of the following things (things which are generally avoidable if used carelessly/aggressively):

Side+B, Dash Attack, Dtilt, Ftilt (near ledge, ideally), Throws (Ganon's short dash and slow running speed make this a somewhat difficult feat, thusly it must be used carefully, i.e. shield grab), SH Autocancel Dair (a little slower than the rest of his options [startup wise], I tend to use this even more precariously as an opener, though it is still very viable, I find it to be better as a closer or followup to any of the former options), SH nair against taller characters, Bair

Actually, that's almost Ganon's entire moveset. My point is this: almost all of his moves will leave you in a (modestly) punishable position if you just throw them out left and right. To me, Ganon is a cautious character. I typically use side+b to get the momentum of his offense rolling, but getting there is an uphill climb which must be confronted carefully. Overall, I see why you might characterize him as "offensive," but I generally find him to be more of a momentum character than an all-out offense junky.

That said, here's my concept of Ganon's metagame:

Currently, the American Smash community has formed a general consensus that Ganon is the worst in the game. Verily, an appearance by Ganon at any large-scale tournament will shock that majority of its participants. As he appears more at tournaments (or as the current Ganons appear at more tournaments, as current sentiment about Ganon's playing ability does not bode well for the number of Ganon mainers), people will gradually abandon this conception of Ganondorf (and from there perhaps cast Falcon for "worst character in the game").

Once that's dealt with, players will generally find Ganon to be intimidating, as almost all of his attacks lead into viciously painful pseudo-combos or death at low percents. Barring matchups in which Ganon strikes a distinct disadvantage, players will generally approach Ganon as carefully as (I think) he should approach them. Even against ranged characters, careful approaches via air or powershielding will allow Ganon some room to force the opponent to play at HIS pace. The risk that a player runs in suffering just one opening hit from Ganon hopefully accomplishes this much. Again, I find this important to Ganon's metagame because, once he gets the ball rolling, there's a good chance that he can run an opponent into dangerously high percents or to death in a single good combo. Ganon's ability to set the pace of the match like this lets the momentum come more easily.

Side+B and shield pressure are also essential to establishing this sort of tone for the match. Used cleverly, these can basically force an opponent out of his or her comfort zone as far as shielding.

Each of these pieces of Ganon's metagame makes him at least playable, and these, combined with simple knowledge of Ganon's moveset, easily earn Ganon a "Get out of 'worst character in Brawl' place Free Card," but there are a few things that keep me from thinking that Ganon can ever feasibly WIN tournaments. He's definitely a competitor until the later rounds, but the fact of the matter is that the number of disadvantageous matchups for Ganon is significantly higher than that of most tournament-winning characters. He suffers most heavily in matchups where the opponent is squirrely (Squirtle, Pikachu, Luigi, Jiggly, Wario, even Falcon) and in matchups where the opponent can easily combo/punish characters simply because of their size (characters with epic sweetspots such as Jiggly, Luigi, and Falcon come to mind, Luigi and Jiggly moreso because they can feasibly "combo" on heavier characters who also take up a lot of space). Thusly, I find that Ganon shows promise until he's faced by any of his numerous disadvantageous matchups. Since the probability that Ganon will be put into difficult matchups is fairly high, I don't find it likely that a Ganon player will be able to endure an entire tournament bracket without facing some VERY difficult matches (that is, matches made harder by Ganon's personal shortcomings, not those caused by the skill of either player).

He's good. He's fun. He's epic. He's very good. But he just won't be able to finish tournaments. Ganon mains are best off practicing counterpick secondaries, as I don't see Ganon ever taking himself all the way through a tournament. He is most CERTAINLY a formidable force in Brawl, though, and shouldn't be as underestimated as he is. However, my belief is that he won't be able to endure an entire tournament until there is a revolutionary change in Brawl's or Ganon's metagame.

 

[Dragmire]

he needs defensive capabilities more than any char, unless it's olimar then you press the attack until he dies.

 

[LeeHarris]

I think this best describes Ganondorf. He is amazing against n00bs or generally, players who haven't fought too many Ganondorf players. However, if you can keep him at bay and avoid his dair, by rolling different directions or using your "get-up attack", you can fight him with more ease. The main thing Ganondorf suffers from, imo, is the fact that he doesn't have any really good match-ups. There aren't any characters he destroys.

Also, he does have some trouble with his recovery. His sideB is pretty easily gimped and I think a lot of Ganon users will need to be more careful with it. I'd say the best things Ganon has going for him are the dair, jab, the nair spike and the element of surprise. Once Ganon is predicted and didn't use either dair or jab, he can be punished pretty heavily.

Lulz. Lets play on wifi some time. It's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

I honestly don't see the potential with the Dorf. yes players can always get better if they properly plan out their attacks and form mindgames but that's not something exclusive to one character. From the dorfs I've played, there is an over aliance in his side special and arial attacks. which really doesn't make sense to the warlock because of his horrible jumps. Thus he dwindles both in arials and edge guarding the two essentials to his play.

I honestly believe as time goes by Ganon might actually go down in 'supposed' tier. While he has some fast attacks, his general running speed is slow, his jumping dynamics suck and he basically in the mercy of any distance or speed fighter in the game which when considered almost covers the entire cast.

He works best as a noob killer. He has pretty powerful attacks and can really can lay out some suprisingly quick decent hits. But in the world of mental strategy and technical prowness I can't see a player really working well with him.

Haha. You obviously only play crappy Ganons! Play against Sliq, G-reg, or me sometime. I could counter nearly every point in your argument, but it would be much better if you just saw it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Are you joking about Ivysaur being bad and not being able to rack up damage? Bullet Seed already does massive damage and his other moves do pretty decent damage and his range is great so it's not like a bunch of his attacks are hard to land.

SDI out of bullet seed, so bleh. Besides, it's fairly telegraphed anyway, so whatever.

And no, look at the guide to Ivysaur. It only has like...three or four attacks besides Bullet Seed that do reasonable damage (which is like U-smash, F-smash, U-air, D-air, which all kinda suck in some way). Everything else sucks at doing damage by a lot.

U-smash will never hit. F-smash leaves you really open. U-air and D-air leave you really open. Vine Whip needs to be sweetspotted. Yeah, uh those are Ivysaurs kill options eh?

On top of that, Ivysaur pretty much always dies if it goes like 20 feet from the stage.

Now, before I refute this remark, let me note that my concept of "defense" in Brawl and the SSB series may be different from yours. For clarification, I'm talking about passive-aggressive play, as there are few situations in this game where you can be ENTIRELY defensive.

Well let me explain what I meant m'kay?

Ganondorf is firstoff very tall. This means he's easily shield stabbed.

Secondly, his shield grab range doesn't exist. This speaks for itself.

His jump is a tad slow, and in terms of being safe on block, he's a fair bit below average because of having lag on several moves and having poor movement.

Also, his recovery is one of the worst non-tether recoveries in the game, since it can't always make it back.

His priority is merely average, which doesn't help.

When I say his defense is bad, I mean it is easy to find an opening in where you can punish Ganondorf, which of course means hitting him.

 

[Cooper736]

One of the biggest things that needs to be debunked, in my opinion, about Ganon is that his recovery does not suck. That's right, it does not suck. One of the slams I see most against the 'dorf is that he doesn't jump high and naturally falls fast, which is true. However, his Up B covers amazing distances and can be aimed in a multitude of directions, including straight up, and ends with a spectacular lights show, capable of spiking if your opponent hits a slanted part of the stage (Smashville anyone?). Something that must be mentioned about his Flame Choke recovery is that, no matter how fast or sweet-spottable on the ledge, it suffers from what I call Lucario Syndrome, in that it does no damage. Nothing on the attack directly damages the opponent. So if you're being edgehogged and your first thought is to Side B, I'd re-think it.

Though I'm not sure whether Flame Choking a non-invincible opponent off the ledge will lead to a Ganoncide. Needs testing.

Other than that, A++ thread. I'll need to re-read it.

 

[Ayato]

When I say his defense is bad, I mean it is easy to find an opening in where you can punish Ganondorf, which of course means hitting him.

Fair enough, if you're looking at it that way. I was considering methods of approaching, or in the case of Ganon, luring/staying away and using proper tactics to cope with ranged fighters. That, and basically playing the camping opportunist. I suppose you could also say that you could go almost balls-to-the-wall aggressive with Ganon, considering how he can soak up damage like a sponge and still be okay, but I find the greatest success in playing passively, which I equate with "defensively." For some reason "shield" doesn't click in my head when I say the word "defensive." I guess I'm ******** like that.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

Though I'm not sure whether Flame Choking a non-invincible opponent off the ledge will lead to a Ganoncide. Needs testing.

He rips their puny fingers off the ledge and carries them to hell.

 

[MiraiGen]

It's nice to have some light shed on the subject that Gdorf isn't the worst character ever. I'm immensely glad that someone shut down the thread titled exactly that.

One of the best things to do with Ganondorf is to just wait - If you pick your attacks right you can usually react to an opponent with just one solid hit. This doesn't work on some of the quicker characters (Specifically Metaknight or Marth or Shiek) but it's a great way to play Ganondorf.

He hits like a truck, but takes a while to go into reverse and try again. Act like it.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Well it's like impossible to edguard properly on wifi because of input lag so that wouldn't really prove that you're right.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

am i the only one that uses the brown leather chaps cowboy ganon? he may seem somewhat gay, but it's worth it.

also, i was surprised you didn't mention edge canceling wizards foot. it sets up gimps at pretty much any percent.

 

[Browny]

One of the biggest things that needs to be debunked, in my opinion, about Ganon is that his recovery does not suck. That's right, it does not suck.

but can you name any other characters in the game with a WORSE recovery? Link is probably the only other candidate, at least his up-b can stage spike very powerfully during the time an edgehoggers invincibility frames wear off.

theres only a handful of characters in brawl who when knocked off at a low trajectory, wont make it back on (atm i can think of Marth, Ike, Lucario, Wolf, Olimar, Ivysaur, Mario) most other characters are so floaty no amount of edgeguarding will make a difference.

 

[MiraiGen]

Worse recovery?

Didn't you just list Wolf and Olimar and Ivysaur?

I mean, answer your own question.

 

[Dragmire]

they all suck especially Olimar and Ivysaur because they are easily egdeguardable such as with ganondorf

 

[Browny]

Wolfs recovery is fine, but if hes knocked below the stage, hes gone. olimar is fine too, since hes so floaty. ganon however wont make it back to the stage even if hes sent up at a reasonable angle.

honestly i wouldnt be surprised if the vast majority of kills i get against ganon's are by them simply not making it back to the stage. at least you have to work a little bit to keep wolf and olimar off the edge.

 

[:034:]

Ganon's recovery is better than Wolf's, if only because he helplessly falls to his death without grabbing the edge most of the time.

 

[waks]

Ganon's recovery isnt that bad, really. And yeah, IMO it is better than Wolf.

 

[Tenki]

Horizontally, he's horrible though, sometimes it feels like he's decelerating when he's coming back on stage.

Vertically, he recovers fairly well, actually xD

 

[Empy]

Lulz. Lets play on wifi some time. It's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.

Wait wait, I didn't mean to say defeating Ganondorf is easy, that's up to the player really. I'm just saying that Ganondorf does very good against opponents who aren't too familiar with him. But if you know his playing style and basically, if your able to avoid the dair combos and can fight him from a distance, it will probably be easier for you to win than for Ganondorf.

So basically my point was, the Ganondorf player is gonna have to be better then you if you know what Ganondorf can do. The same does not necessarily go for other characters. An extreme example being Metaknight. A Metaknight can be very good, but he doesn't really have to be better to win, or at least not as much as Ganondorf.

And sure, I'll play you on wifi. Connection probably won't be amazing but yeah.

 

[Sliq]

Anyone who can DI has no business not making it back with Ganondorf.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

Anyone who can DI has no business not making it back with Ganondorf.

Double pivot murder punch, mirite?

 

[Jekyll]

How the hell have I come into this forum every day this week and still missed this thread?

 

[Genoisdabest]

Well, Ganon is actually a fairly decent character and you know, I know he hasn't really won any major tournaments, but if you really look at it, not allot of people even enter with Ganon to be begin with, when you have tons of Snake and Meta Knight interference's.

I guess all I am trying to say if more people actually gave him a chance he could be allot better then people give him credit for, he has a potential that has not fully been revealed.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I doubt Ganondorf will ever make it past low tier during Brawl's lifetime as a competitive game. I feel that his weaknesses simply outweigh his strengths, and that he has too many disadvantageous match-ups. As said before most matches with him involve getting pummeled until you can get a few good hits in then finish with a KO, which is not the markings of a good character.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

I doubt Ganondorf will ever make it past low tier during Brawl's lifetime as a competitive game. I feel that his weaknesses simply outweigh his strengths, and that he has too many disadvantageous match-ups. As said before most matches with him involve getting pummeled until you can get a few good hits in then finish with a KO, which is not the markings of a good character.

Wait, did you just refer to Brawl as a competitive game?

 

[Cooper736]

I doubt Ganondorf will ever make it past low tier during Brawl's lifetime as a competitive game.

Not with that attitude he won't.

I guess all I am trying to say if more people actually gave him a chance he could be allot better then people give him credit for, he has a potential that has not fully been revealed.

This is the key to Ganon, as well as with pretty much every character. All Ganon needs is a really good player behind the controller, and hopefully a new AT or two. Make us proud sliq. And post more combo videos.

 

[Ayato]

Mind, to those hating on Ganon's recovery, it's not COMPLETE garbage. It's certainly not the best. In fact, I wouldn't necessarily even call it "good," but Sliq is right in saying that Ganon can easily make it back to the stage if you just DI properly. He's heavy. He'll stick around until ludicrously high percents. Sure, it's easy to edgeguard his recovery, but he at least has a few options now. As long as you're not put out at a ludicrous angle (in other words, as long as your opponent doesn't pull off some epic edgeguard/meteor), then Ganon generally has enough juice in him to make it to the ledge. Yes, it's a predictable edgeguard, so it's your responsibility to keep yourself high and leave yourself as many options as you can. His recovery is workable. Other characters certainly suffer more in this department than he does, period.

 

[-Aether]

Lulz. Lets play on wifi some time. It's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be.



Haha. You obviously only play crappy Ganons! Play against Sliq, G-reg, or me sometime. I could counter nearly every point in your argument, but it would be much better if you just saw it.

Hm. While this is true, G-reg attends most of the tournaments I go to in real life, as he lives under an hour from my house. I've yet to see him use Ganon in anything but friendlies. Can you guess why? I really don't need to spell it out any more than that; the rest is implied.

As for WiFi, it's terrible. I know you play some sort of roll in WiFiwars, so you probably have a more positive outlook on WiFi than most, but it's completely useless for judging skill unless your connection is pristine.

While I agree that Ganon has potential and that the person you were quoting made an oversimplified statement, I disagree that just because a handful OF REALLY GOOD SMASH PLAYERS IN GENERAL may preform decently it doesn't make Ganon remotely tourney worthy...and tournament results reflect this statement.

 

[LeeHarris]

I agree on Wifi sucking for the most part.

Ganon is a good counter pick character and someone that is hard to main. It seems only Sliq has the massive balls required to main Ganon.

 

[-Aether]

I agree on Wifi sucking for the most part.

Ganon is a good counter pick character and someone that is hard to main. It seems only Sliq has the massive balls required to main Ganon.

Massive balls wins your man points, but doesn't usually lead to the cashmoniez.

Unless you're Azen.

 

[MiraiGen]

While I agree that Ganon has potential and that the person you were quoting made an oversimplified statement, I disagree that just because a handful OF REALLY GOOD SMASH PLAYERS IN GENERAL may preform decently it doesn't make Ganon remotely tourney worthy...and tournament results reflect this statement.

That's one of the inherent flaws with the SBR discussion - any positive or negative words on behalf of one character slants the thought process of a thousand 13-year-olds, creating a big upheval.

Ganondorf is badly outmatched by most of the top-tiered characters in Brawl but he's certainly not out. Normally I'd compare to Melee, but come on, who are we kidding. Melee was totally different.

 

[Sliq]

Being good at the game doesn't make the character you play inherently good. People need to stop confusing player ability with character attributes.

Furthermore, I have only played in 2 Brawl tounaments so far. Expect more high Ganon placement when I have more experience.

 

[-Aether]

Being good at the game doesn't make the character you play inherently good. People need to stop confusing player ability with character attributes.

Furthermore, I have only played in 2 Brawl tounaments so far. Expect more high Ganon placement when I have more experience.

I'm sure you're a good player, but this might be a matter of competition. I live in the tristate area. Chudat, Azen, ChillinDude, and M2k (only occasionally, but was at C3 last time) show up to my tournaments. I don't think a ganon is placing with them in the tournament, unless by random whim they decide to play even lower tier.

But, screw that. Ignore my former statement. I'm sure NY has a ton of good players. As long as everyone in your area has the competitive mind set, you'll be seeing MK, Snake, etc. Unless you're the better player by a significant margin, you're going to be struggling.

My only point is the tier list exists for a reason, and usually good players (G-reg, yourself) can make a character look viable when in reality the character is not.

Unless I'm talking out of my *** here and you just kick *** and take names.

 

[MiraiGen]

The game is still young. We've got a lot of time before people get Melee tournament good.

 

[Sliq]

I'm sure you're a good player, but this might be a matter of competition. I live in the tristate area. Chudat, Azen, ChillinDude, and M2k (only occasionally, but was at C3 last time) show up to my tournaments. I don't think a ganon is placing with them in the tournament, unless by random whim they decide to play even lower tier.

But, screw that. Ignore my former statement. I'm sure NY has a ton of good players. As long as everyone in your area has the competitive mind set, you'll be seeing MK, Snake, etc. Unless you're the better player by a significant margin, you're going to be struggling.

My only point is the tier list exists for a reason, and usually good players (G-reg, yourself) can make a character look viable when in reality the character is not.

Unless I'm talking out of my *** here and you just kick *** and take names.

The only person I have ever played and thought that winning was not an option for me was against M2K.

 

[LEGND]

am i the only one that uses the brown leather chaps cowboy ganon? he may seem somewhat gay, but it's worth it.

also, i was surprised you didn't mention edge canceling wizards foot. it sets up gimps at pretty much any percent.

Yes, you are NOT alone. I use that outfit too. But I always thought that it was his outfit from OoT? I like to call Ganondorf *Gyllendorf* when he's using that outfit. It seems fitting.

 

[Shamoo]

Ganondorf is amazing.

With my own Barehands and the hands of others will I make the world realize this.


GANON SUPREMACY WILL REIGN IN BRAWL.


But until then, continue to call him low tier. It makes it all the better owning people with him.

 

[Dragmire]

all we have to rely on ganon is our extreme technical skill other than that he does suck

 

[St. Viers]

I like ganon, but I don't have the game, so I don't have the autocancel timing down...

@sliq: my problem with ganon is that most of the things about him are tricks--like IASA frames, autocancelling, which although useful, aren't so much as you play people used to ganon.

*wishes he could jump-> f-air->jump->f-air like in melee*