We really need to get rid of the turmoil thats been going on recently.

[ShadowLink84]

First the whole issue in the character discussion, then kids topic and then how it dominated the whole Sonic chat room thing.

The Sonic community really isn't going to get any better if we are fighting amongst ourselves or with others.

So what do we do? Should we simply let bygones be bygones?
Do we ignore each other to avoid further issues?
Or should we address the issues at hand?

I feel the third option is required and really do feel we should discuss things.

I will not bother addressing Kid's topic for I do not condone it period. A topic that rips things out of context and then flat out lies is not bettering the board at all. We do not make such controversial topics nor should we condone such behavior as a whole.

One of the main issue I brought up in a topic I made earlier was how defensive Sonic mains get because they are Sonic mains.
We have often had to deal with our arguments being ignored because of who we main.

Another issue is our behavior with each other. Alot of the time we come off as rude and disrespectful even if we do not intend to be that way.
Even towards each other.
The tone of voice doesn't translate well to paper and I admit that on more than one occasion I come off as nasty instead of the more light tone I envisioned.

It isn't just the fact that people view us as being rude because of how we address them but because of how we address each other.

Hopefully this doesn't get locked since so people could have a place to discuss things here but in event it does, we go to the SBR.

 

[SonicX580]

Well we should discuss on what to do Shadowlink because if we ignore this issue it will continue again like a cycle that needs to be broken before the Sonic boards die.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I do think we need to discuss some of these conflicts personal or otherwise.
one tihng i would also like toad dress is the fact that we aren't really focusing on Sonic's problems.
We know Sonic's strengths but we can advance those at the same time that we deal with Sonic's weaknesses.

For example I like yoshi's Island against characters like Snake who camp.
Primarily because I can use the slopes to gain invincibility and no longer worry about being struck out of my approach due to priority issues or range issues.

y working on the weaknesses we advance our strengths at the same time. We'll focus on methods of getting around priority issue or killing issues rather than working solely on his strengths.
.

 

[~TBS~]

I do think we need to discuss some of these conflicts personal or otherwise.
one tihng i would also like toad dress is the fact that we aren't really focusing on Sonic's problems.
We know Sonic's strengths but we can advance those at the same time that we deal with Sonic's weaknesses.

For example I like yoshi's Island against characters like Snake who camp.
Primarily because I can use the slopes to gain invincibility and no longer worry about being struck out of my approach due to priority issues or range issues.

y working on the weaknesses we advance our strengths at the same time. We'll focus on methods of getting around priority issue or killing issues rather than working solely on his strengths.
.

^^this. yes, we need to discuss weaknesses. we are open when we dont notice it...we gotta step it up ShadowLink...

 

[SonicX580]

I do think we need to discuss some of these conflicts personal or otherwise.
one tihng i would also like toad dress is the fact that we aren't really focusing on Sonic's problems.
We know Sonic's strengths but we can advance those at the same time that we deal with Sonic's weaknesses.

For example I like yoshi's Island against characters like Snake who camp.
Primarily because I can use the slopes to gain invincibility and no longer worry about being struck out of my approach due to priority issues or range issues.

y working on the weaknesses we advance our strengths at the same time. We'll focus on methods of getting around priority issue or killing issues rather than working solely on his strengths.
.

Yes we need to talk about it all we talk about these days are flaming, attacks, and steak (no offense guys) also my thread Meta Knight's Disadvantages is under looked it has MK stuff (the main root of one of Sonic's Weakness.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah we need to get off the steak a bit since its getting rather old. It gives off a spammy appearance.

 

[SonicX580]

Yeah we need to get off the steak a bit since its getting rather old. It gives off a spammy appearance.

That's why are good threads are closed *wait here is the chance where someone says something like Steak is never old it's everything also Sonic is Steak Tier then a mod locks up the thread also what about my MK thread? I worked hard on it searching all over the archives just to get this information so what do you think?

 

[da K.I.D.]

So what do we do? Should we simply let bygones be bygones?
Do we ignore each other to avoid further issues?
Or should we address the issues at hand?

I feel the third option is required and really do feel we should discuss things.

I will not bother addressing Kid's topic for I do not condone it period. A topic that rips things out of context and then flat out lies is not bettering the board at all. We do not make such controversial topics nor should we condone such behavior as a whole.

Another issue is our behavior with each other. Alot of the time we come off as rude and disrespectful even if we do not intend to be that way.
Even towards each other.
The tone of voice doesn't translate well to paper and I admit that on more than one occasion I come off as nasty instead of the more light tone I envisioned.

.

WTF?1. why say we should address things and than dont address them. 2. i didnt lie or take anything out of the original context. 3. we should be nicer but than im lying?

 

[SonicX580]

K.I.D. please don't lock this thread just let it go this thread is to discuss the problems not make more.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kid I am only going to address this once and only because I feel that if I don't do so it'll just go on and on.

When you go about and say things like this

I can obviously see that not everyone is doing this to people, but the ones that are are the most vocal, and thats how the word spreads. those 3 people are most likely going to go back to whatever part of the board that they frequent and tell everyone that not only are the sonic boards still a bunch of unknown D-bags, they are also hypocritically because they try to act like they've turned over a new leaf. What a load of crap!!

That is known as lying, especially when myself and Chis have both gone and actually defended the Sonic boards before, during and after the WCD in spite of all that has been said.
As soon as the WCD was made I made a topic dictating that the Sonic boards needed to calm down.

The fact you went and made such a statement as well as ripped out of context several other statements in order to further your own lie not only was disrespectful towards myself and Chis, but also enforced the views of others that the Sonic board is unstable and incapable of being respected.

I shouldn't be seeing such things especially from you whom I have supported in the past time and time again. I shouldn't see you making outlandish claims that we should not call someone wrong after we have tested their theory. I should not see you claiming I do not contribute to the sonic board and then ignoring even Tenki when he disagrees with you (whom you say you'll cosign to).

Its not cool at all dude and pushes us backwards.
Why do you think MC was viewed as being in the wrong when he acted so heatedly towards SP? There was no need and it skewed the views people had concerning it.

Whatever this will get locked anyway.


Moving on: I suggest we make a topic on Sonic's weaknesses and then focus on getting around them.

 

[da K.I.D.]

K.I.D. please don't lock this thread just let it go this thread is to discuss the problems not make more.

I will not bother addressing Kid's topic .

this is me trying to address things that need to be addressed.

when i said these three people will go back to their boards, i was referencing Mmac, JustBlase and Ayaz, not you and chis.

 

[SonicX580]

Can we move on? anyways what's next aside from Sonic's weakness.

 

[da K.I.D.]

he cant kill well, the priority on most of th moves is bad, and he doesnt do enough damage.

priority can be overrided since his moves are moderately fast and his manuverabiltity is pretty much the best in smash history.

the damage can be over rided by his manuverability since the player cna make it hard to hit sonic

the kill moves thing is the biggest problem but since we can avoid getting hit and we can survive really long it kind of over rides teh kill move sitch since after 200% he has like 10 killing options whereas as 125% he only really has one

 

[SonicX580]

Also Sonic's moves are kinda of old it needs to be more unique also his moves need more power and hit back.

 

[da K.I.D.]

wait are we discussing how to minimize his flaws, or what they need to change about him for the next game?

 

[Espy Rose]

I reall don't think it's Sonic-Board-Wide turmoil.
Really, it's just KID vs. SL, that's all.

Solve this problem in PMs guys, it'll probably be better for all of us.
Other than you two, who else here is really causing anything to the degree of "turmoil"?

I'm also sure that most of the others who've jumped onto this bandwagon did it as a result of you two bickering, but hey, I could be wrong. In fact, I'm endangering myself of hopping on as well by just saying this.

But really guys, just fix this little conflict so we can go back to matchup discussion, completing the Sonic guide, and helping Napi with his Sonic project.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We need to make an index as well.
Thats right Tenki i ripped your idea XD
So its agreed we focus on sonics weaknesses yes?

 

[SonicX580]

Okay but afterwards I wanna talk about a diffrent Sonic I saw in a diffent smash game or should I PM?

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes we should all get back to talking about pufferson's fake steak,

GET AT ME!!

 

[Tenki]

wait are we discussing how to minimize his flaws?

yes

discussing possible changes in another game (eg, SSB4, SSF)... is stupid and has nothing to do with the current metagame.

 

[SonicX580]

I thought the point of this thread was to solve problems not making them.

 

[~TBS~]

how DO we minimize Sonic's flaws? that the hardest and most important question ever.

EDIT: SonicX580, we will be all right, it will go over.

 

[Jim Morrison]

how DO we minimize Sonic's flaws? that the hardest and most important question ever.

Don't make the flaws visible, avoid them, find new flaws.

As for that thing I posted against Mmac. I'm sorry if I was rude. These new avatars just make me feel badass.

 

[Tenki]

well it depends on the issue.

If it's priority, it's usually a matter of finding a move that you can attack post-lag or being able to wreck their spacing with movement and/or shield.

If it's slow moves, then it's a matter of avoiding the slow moves or using them when your opponent can't react as quickly, etc.

every character has their weaknesses and good players tend to be able to either mask those weaknesses or take their strengths to the point that they overwhelm their opponent.

For example Ganondorf and his lag? 3 of his fastest aerials can be done without landing lag, so they can mask it.

things like that.

Bring up one problem and we can brainstorm ways around it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The issue though is that priority goes hand in hand with range so characters like MK are an issue since he has both speed and range.

 

[SonicX580]

Well here is a link a put up for MK http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=207485 hopefully it can help Sonic.

 

[Tenki]

The issue though is that priority goes hand in hand with range so characters like MK are an issue since he has both speed and range.

Work on breaking spacing with shield, and punishing OoS while wasting as little time in-shield as possible?

Even MK is susceptible to OoS punishment.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Work on breaking spacing with shield, and punishing OoS while wasting as little time in-shield as possible?

Even MK is susceptible to OoS punishment.

This is true but we also must remember that unlike Sonic, MK is safer in his behavior.
He can very well avoid the lag on the ground by simply jumping FH and then pressuring. That is the main issue, there are a number of things that require a noticeable error in order to be truly taken advantage of, the margin of error that MK has is so much smaller than Sonic's.
On another note, I am hungry. Dreadfully hungry.

 

[JayBee]

If thread is well established in the Sonic community, and has proven to contain useful things, that steak spam doesn't really mess it up IMO. It makes it funny to me, and I don't always have groundbreaking stuff to post anyways...

There is a lot of steak meme in my thread but it doesn't overrun it IMO, I think that's because the content or theme was well established beforehand, so the randomness doesn't kill it. THe main problem with new threads, is that they have to compete with the stickies, which means you need to have an something that people can't flame about, which in the sonic boards usually means your thread doesn't talk about stuff that everyone knows is obvious but u as the basis of the thread, or something we can easiliy look for in the stickies. (example: A thread about sideB when we clearly have one by Tenki at the TOP OF THE PAGE.)


I think people just need to think about what they want to post threads about very hard before they bother doing so. Talk a look at the most popular threads, and see why they live so long. I dont even have mines stickied but obviously there is something in there I'm doing right. When people don't take into account the threads already existed, there is a higher tendacy to falsefy information, which causes arguments for no reason. Especailly when the person shows no proof after so long.

Honestly I feel like there are maybe 10 threads here, if that much worth going to , and the rest is spam. If we wanty to change opinions about the Sonic boards, then the first thing I want to suggest is that it doesn't always mean to make a personal thread when ever you think or "something." This influx of short lived threads also confuse new players and prevent them from finding the foundations of Sonic meta even futher. I don't even have a problem with a person being ignorant with certain Sonic techs, but making a thread that asks one question when u can do it in the sticky? unessasary.

rant is over. if the sonic boards really wishes to up its credibilty, then the mani issue that needs to be resolved is the random threads that lead to no true purpose. Unfortunaely that can't be policed, so it has to be someting we all agree to by ourselves.

 

[SonicX580]

This is true but we also must remember that unlike Sonic, MK is safer in his behavior.
He can very well avoid the lag on the ground by simply jumping FH and then pressuring.

Also if you try to break their shield they will probably counter with moves like drill rush tornado.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Drill rush isn't an issue and tornado can be ran away from. Its everything else you worry about. @_@

 

[SonicX580]

Like the unpredicatable shuttle loop? or his dimesional cape?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Shuttle Loop OoS is terribly annoying. Dimensional Cape... Lol what's the use beside stalling?

 

[Tenki]

This is true but we also must remember that unlike Sonic, MK is safer in his behavior.
He can very well avoid the lag on the ground by simply jumping FH and then pressuring.

Okay, let's try this situation:

MK's FH rising F-air.

FAIR

frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
duration: 39
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
aerial cooldown: 25 <--- right there
landing lag: 15
autocancels on: 21

If it's a FH, you shield the 3 hits, and there you have it, at the worst, even taking into account shield drop or reaction time, 15 frames. At the best, you can jump right after it hits (I believe it has 1-2 frames of shieldstun), then have 20 frames to start an aerial.


I'd be more worried about the SHFF rising F-air:

SHFF
1-4 jump startup
5-30 airtime
31-34 landing lag

duration: 34 frames
air time: 26 frames
landing lag: 4 frames

F-air autocancels on frame 21 apparently, and that's less time than a SHFF. There'd be a 14-15 frame dead time (assuming 1-2 frames of shieldstun, and 4 frames of landing lag) after it hits, 16 frames of opening if he missed. You can drop shield and F-tilt, jump up and F-air, etc.

 

[Trillion]

I think this thread was founded in a good spirit. Talking about how to unite the Sonic board to work for a common good is a great idea. We have a community of extremely intelligent smash players who happen to be dedicated to sonic. It's perfect. The problem is that we are not all working toward common goals. Look at the potential we have. Say, we pick a problem that we need to solve or some information that we need to compile. If we have Tenki, Terios, KID, ShadowLink, etc. (sorry not to list everyone here, i think you get the point) basically EVERYONE working together, then we can compile info faster, solve sonic's problems sooner, and develop new combos/techs/whatever even faster.

We have the talent we need, now let's get some team work!

ShadowLink, good idea, but some of your word choice is somewhat contradictory to your own idea. You can't say hey lets get along, but at the same time say that you're not going to get along with KID. BOTH of you need to chill out IMO. The arguments you guys seem to be having is based on perspective. Don't accuse each other of lying or say the other is giving useless or false info. Neither of you would PURPOSELY do something that would hurt the sonic boards, right? A difference of opinion should stay just that. If you are talking about the usefulness of information regarding sonic, then debating it is perfectly fine, just don't get personal about it. You are both here for a common cause. Rather than be at each others throats, you two should be able to work together for the better of everyone, each other included.

 

[R4ZE]

So what do we do? Should we simply let bygones be bygones?
Do we ignore each other to avoid further issues?
Or should we address the issues at hand?

What do I do to ignore them behind me
Do I follow my instincts blindly
Do I hide my pride from these bad dreams
And give in to sad thoughts
that are maddening
Do I sit here and try to stand it
Or do I try to catch them red-handed
Do I trust some and get
fooled by phoniness
Or do I trust nobody and
live in loneliness
Because I can't hold on when
I'm stretched so thin
I make the right moves but I'm lost within
I put on my daily facade but then
I just end up getting hurt again


If I turn my back I'm defenseless
And to go blindly seems senseless
If I hide my pride and let it all go on
Then they'll take from
me'till everything is gone
If I let them go I'll be outdone
[ Find more Lyrics at www.mp3lyrics.org/Uu ]
But if I try to catch them I'll be outrun
If I'm killed by the
questions like a cancer
Then I'll be buried in the
silence of the answer



end... in regards to mk... mk is top tier . sonic is bottom... we need to just make ONE EFFIN THREAD for this topic and stop bringing it everywhere else. because it has this viral way of infecting every effing thread we have,

 

[Tenki]

I think we should stop talking about the OP and discuss that MK F-air situation that ShadowLink brought up earlier.

I want more people to try it

;/

 

[da K.I.D.]

for a guy who names himself after a gun you seem to have a very peaceful attitude.

ive said before that i know that the arguments are based in perspective, i just dont think hes respectful enough to people that he disagrees with...


as far as workign together goes, try to help me out with that down tilt information that i asked for, remember I dont have a wii.

EDIT looking at the comments that got in before mine.
i realised why we are so off the wall.
tenki over here wants us to test stuff with MKs f-air
Im out there asking for stuff about down tilt
and than 580 shows up with something madd random. we are just all over the place and we cant focus our energies into one place..
@tenki, if you are worried about punishing f-air and down smash and all that, i have some thing in my thread is perfect for this situation

 

[Trillion]

we are just all over the place and we cant focus our energies into one place..

That's what I'm talking about. Let's push in one direction, or at least if we are trying meet several goals, then lets have multiple people working on them rather than just one person trying to compile info. I don't have anyone that I can get to help me with frame data stuff on the metaknight fair situation. Also, nobody I know plays metaknight. So, I don't know if I can do much to help with that. I'll see if there is anyway that I can though.

 

[Tenki]

EDIT looking at the comments that got in before mine.
i realised why we are so off the wall.
tenki over here wants us to test stuff with MKs f-air
Im out there asking for stuff about down tilt
and than 580 shows up with something madd random. we are just all over the place and we cant focus our energies into one place..
@tenki, if you are worried about punishing f-air and down smash and all that, i have some thing in my thread is perfect for this situation

-I asked SL84 to name a situation that Sonic's weaknesses are apparent, and he mentioned MK's FH F-air.

-dNES can take care of your D-tilt business (err, frame data?), but just have patience since this is finals week for alot of us.