We ought to look at some things.

[Kinzer]

Kinzer here.

So I don't know if it's just me, but there are some things that I don't recall getting their own thread, they are too recent of discoveries to have actually got it's own thread (and probably nothing major enoguh to warrent its own thread), or it doesn't even have a dedicated "mini-guide" to help others understand the physics behind the technique.

If I can just have a couple of moments of your time to post your speculations on some of this that would be really appreciated.

As for further research on some of these things, we'll either wait for somebody to post what they know on the subject, or hopefully take the time to read more into what it is. This thread is here for the sake of compressing it all into one place and having the more brainy Sonic's break it down.

Up throw guaranteed combos/pseudo-followups:

This should be self-explanitory; if you've been playing Sonic long enough you must have at least figured out one or two possible follow-ups, or ones that are guaranteed to work no matter what, or at least at low percent. Now for those that aren't quite aware let's take a look at the basics.

Up-Throw does 12% damage undiminished, and continues to be Sonic's best damaging throw for another 3 before Forward Throw does more damage (9%). Now considering Sonic's Speed, it is very easy to get a grab going and at around 0-50% reading your opponent's reaction out of the throw's hitstun becomes second nature.

Mainly effective on the fatties/heavies/fast-fallers, if you are feeling too uncomfortable to risk trying to read your opponent's landing and go for another Up throw (or sometimes they react by jumping/doing something else), you usually have enough of a positional advantage to Up air, Back air, (possibly) Forward air, (lolno) Neutral air, and in the extreme cases Up tilt, with the latter working at a very low percent; perhaps no more than 10%. That's being generous.

Now it also depends on where your opponent goes/what he does after that varies how you choose to continue a chain from an Up throw. Take for example an Up tilt follow-up, nevermind that a certain damage condition has to be met as well as the opponent's character having the right attributes, usually you have to check to see which way they went. You should all be aware that the opponent can use Directional Influence to change their trajectory, and if your opponent is any good they will be sent behind you.

Excuse me, that's really only at unusually high percents, at a low percent like 0-10%, the opponent would have you guess which way to Up tilt (again, assuming they want to keep you on your feet and make you guess/adapt). Sadly yes an Up tilt is not 100% guaranteed and you either need to turn-around accordingly to have the Up tilt connect, or the opponent could simply not apply any Directional Influence and in which case you just want to Up tilt the way you were facing when you initiated the throw. If successful you should have racked up a nice ~25% on them from one simple Up throw to Up tilt combo.

Now at a higher percent that will start to deteriorate; perhaps Up tilt will only connect with the last hit (not too bad), or it won't connect all-together. In this case it's probably a good idea to chase with aerials. Without having done thorough research on the whole cast, I can assume somewhere around 60-75% is when the aerial strings would stop working. Even then they can't really be guaranteed. It may also depend on the character itself, take for example Meta Knight has a really fast and length Down air and something like a Forward air would simply not work on him. However a perfectly spaced Up air or a well-timed Back air should be able to get around the sword and push Meta Knight away with some more tacked on damage. Meta Knight is also a light character so you may have to double jump in some cases. That is assuming the Meta Knight chooses to throw out a Down air in hopes if hitting you out of a failed attempt of an aerial chain. If he chooses to jump simply nothing will happen and you two are back at neutral position... Or somewhere close to it, it will take him a while to get back to the ground, in which case you could test your luck by reading his landing, or spaced SHFFUairs to keep juggling him.

It may also be worthy to mention that even though having to jump seems a bit slow, and double-jumping moreso, I find a lot of these strings to work despite how much reaction time there is inbetween. Or maybe it's just my imagination thinking that it's all so slow and maybe some of these aerial strings/switch-ups actually do work. Again without a thorough list it is difficult if not impossible to know what will work in what situation with what character. Hopefully with more time that will be fixed, but for now we need people to start paying attention and experimenting.

*insert anymore data that might've not been mentioned, or any new possible things that may come up with time here.*

*Insert big list of character attributes and at the least minimum guaranteed combos and their respective working %ages and damage outputs here.*

Invincible Spin Dash Roll on transformation transactions:

As far as I know, this is something very new and requires that people look really well into this.

Here's a couple of video examples for those who prefer to learn visually:

First.

Second.

(If the links are dead, take a look at these links, both 40 seconds into them):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpCKlSdQQ2c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiQ0zCUIJjk&feature=related

September 20th edit:


Now apparently possible on Frigate as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ44YkkJngU

Notice how Sonic's Spin Dash Roll became an Airdash despite there not being a 45 degree angle which is usually the condition that needs to be met in order to initiate an iSDR/Airdash?

If this works on Castle Siege, there shouldn't be any reason this can't work on Delfino Plaza OR FRIGATE. Unfortunately as of April 25th, 2010, there is no documentary of it working. Tails had made a sort of video as for the visual queue, but I can't find it at the moment... Will fix at a later time.

Once again, for anybody that knows anymore about this, it is highly recommend you fill everybody in on what's the deal. So far it's that there seems to be a strict window of opportunity.

Platform Jab-lock/follow-up set-ups:

This one's pretty easy to get the idea of.

Have you ever noticed that when you shield an attack near the edge of a platform that you get pushed off, and if you hit the floor you get put into the position to be jab-locked? Perhaps you're more familiar with being pushed onto the ledge and hanging from there because that's usually what catches you, if there isn't any ground to stop you from falling off. Regradless if you weren't already familiar with this concept you should be thinking of ways to get that perfect set-up on your opponent from a platform and right into your jabs which lead directly to a nicely timed and powerful Forward smash.

Sometimes what may happen with multi-hit attacks such as Forward air is that you push your opponent off and instead of attacking his/her shield he/she is now taking the rest of the unused hits. At least this if the opponent wasn't somewhere near the middle of the platform and the move doesn't end soon enough. Same thing with Up smash.

However here's the thing. What if your opponent doesn't get knocked off? Is there enough time for another attempt at knocking them off? What about possible counters for being too slow? It's a gamble, with something like Up smash and you have to bare with the move's end lag and the opponent wasn't sent flying away or knocked into the tumbling state.

It works best with Bair air/Neutral air thanks to their superior shield pushback and for the most part their short landing lag.

Just food for though, some of you may probably already be well-aware of this, but it should get it's own mention on this forum which I have yet to see, and it's always nice to discuss more in-depth with others.

Aerial to grounded follow-ups:

At low percentages and thanks to Sonic's aerials having for the most part quick recovery time when done properly, it is sometimes possible to get some strings going with an aerial in the right place with the right percents. Have you ever done a first hit Up air into an Up tilt, or perhaps a Back air into a Dash attack or Forward or Down tilt? That's the idea. Neutral air if it hits is probably the easiest to link attacks with thanks to it's relatively low knockback (with either the strong or weak hits), even at a medium percent.

Sometimes it may even be a good idea to Forward air with the intention of going into the "fish-flop" state so that your opponent isn't sent away by the strong hit and thus follow-up into something that's quick and packs a punch, usually into a grab or an up tilt. Beware though for if the opponent sees it coming you could be the one who gets punished hard.

Once again, this all depends on the opponents' characters, and who they will react to these strings. Sometimes it will work like it should, other times it won't be as effective, if it even achieves some success.

*Insert a more concrete list of character attributes and at the least guaranteed combos here.*

Wall Jab-Lock:

Visual demonstration

Most, if not everything you need to know about this in detail is in the description box of the video given, but it will also be below as follow:

With Sonic's Jab dealing insignificant knockback, it's almost difficult to be able to properly apply it in your game. Though limited in where it can appear and how it can be set up, it's because Sonic's Jab being so weak that this technique works at all.

If you have an opponent against a wall in your jab combo, you can link more full jab combos onto one another for a reasonably long while, and rack up a considerable amount of damage without much risk taken and little room for error on your part. Just be careful that you aren't too slow and give your opponent enough time to shield the next jab barrage and counter with whatever is appropriate for them.

Although the effectiveness can vary from character to character, once it starts it works the same way for one character as it would any other. It may also help to have the jab-combo weakened enough and the opponent be at a low enough percent to where they won't get sent into the tumbling state and have no choice but to continue taking blows.

Although I can't be bothered to give character and damage/decay-specific frame-data, there are still plenty of situational set-ups and follow-ups from this. If the opponent doesn't tech or attack after a jab-combo makes them go into a tumble, it's the perfect regular jab-lock set-up, which racks up even more damage and possibly gives you a guaranteed Knockout punch. It is also possible to stop the jab-combo shortly before the opponent goes into a tumble and grab them, then rack up damage from there on out with pummels and a throw afterwards, which that in itself may set-up for a jab-lock if the opponent is really out of it (probably best with Forward Throw and the occasional "Why is this working again?" D Throw).

This even has its own set-up, somewhat. Yes, the opponent needs to be up against a wall, yes they need to be at the right percent, but if you manage to grab somebody against a wall and ground grab-release them it can put them right into the position to get wall jab-locked. Do a bit of research though, this will not work on some characters, due to having an attack just as fast, if not faster than Sonic's 3-frame jab, and moreso than not a spotdodge can help them avoid it. At least with a spotdodge though it leaves them in a predictable defensive maneuver and you can time that t get them into the wall-lock. It's very nice to be able to Rapid Jab by just the holding of the A button.

The best of all this is that if the opponent does get caught in this, it's basically guaranteed until 60% if you manage to do it before then. Not even SDI can save them from the blunt beating.

The Flying Battery:

The Flying Battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTnly7rFOfw

A neat little trick that any character who can walljump do on Frigate's second transformation.

What makes me give this little technique it's name is probably because Sonic is best capable of making this work. It isn't Sonic-specific, but anyway, if you take a look at the video, you'll see that there are two specific spots below the stage from which you can constantly walljump from one side to the other. A recovery/stalling technique if you would.

As with all batteries, they eventually run out of juice. This technique cannot be done forever, being that with every wall-jump performed, the height gained becomes less and less. Now because the stage stops Sonic from going up any higher than given, what you need to worry about is how long and how low you can go before you have to land back on the stage or plummet downwards. The practical walljump limit is Twenty. I have managed to get more, but by then I had to mash/time my walljumps. Also if you're not fast enough, you'll sink too low to reach the "wall" part and by then something has to happen.

Sonic can access the wall-jumping parts easy, being that he has an excellent recovery, and Homing Attack provides for more leeway. Do note however that this technique does not keep Sonic from being invulnerable. Characters with flexible projectiles like Ness or Snake can still very well reach him and hit him out. Other characters like Meta Knight or Pit can simply go up to Sonic and swat him, and still have enough leeway to make it back to the stage themselves. Be especially careful when you find that you've reached the walljump limit and you're trying to make it back to the ledge. There are a lot of ways to make it safer, for one, Homing Attack. Second, you can walljump off the wall that has the ledge. Spring also goes a ways up but if you get cypher-gimped that's no good.

If you find yourself stuck and unable to get back to the ledge while you're Homing Attack Stalling, be sure to use B-Reversing. You won't have your second jump however, so make sure you don't mess that up and accidentally Spindash to your doom.

I'm not sure if it's possible to do the Flying Battery from one side to the other along with Homing Attack stalling. I tried but as you will see I failed to do so. It may not be at all possible, or perhaps because the other Sonic was there it was throwing off the Homing Attack's lock-on and sending me back to the last side.

Treadmill-canceled Up-Smash (into) Back-Air (TCUSBA):

TCUSBA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZfz3CIrAQQ

Credit goes to Tesh for the video.

As for what this is, when you commit to a ground attack on the treadmill on the electric part of Pokemon Stadium II, you will be relieved of any sort of lag due to being pushed off from the ground into the air. The essentially makes things such as Forward smash lagless and leads into some pretty wicked combos that normally wouldn't be possible.

"Super Sonic Stadiums:"

Super Sonic Stadiums

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lumj9kYOYhc

Credit goes to Tesh for the video.

In short, There's some pretty crazy stuff you can do on Pokemon Stadium I and II...

The Physics of Yoshi's Isle: Melee:

Spindash cancel utilt/usmash are just easy buffers. When sonic hits that slope right, you can do whatever you want. He is just sliding in a neutral position.

YI:M has been my favorite stage for a while, so I made a vid after the new ruleset came out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_7oKz1aws8

Sonic is SO fast on this stage, spindash becomes almost as versatile as running due to being able to cancel it all over the stage. He also has iSDR on the pipes.

But, yea people probably won't take this stage seriously.

Run-cancel into Spin Charge:

Kind of random, but an overlooked tidbit that I just confirmed for myself today:

You can down-b out of fulldash
..lol


Like, the screech stop animation has some IASA frames for say, jab, but you can cancel bypass the screechstop at by doing a down-B during fulldash.

So basically,
instead of
Run > screechstop > downB ...
you can do
Run > downB ...

It isn't that there's IASA during screechstop moreso than a "Run state can turn into down-B"

This also means that you can, for example, run, singlecharge down-B and release, and it's pretty similar to dash attack, except with more commitment and comboability.

Implications:
- alternative to dash attack
- pressure game tool: you don't have to commit to SC until right before you have to hit with it - you can run to your desired spot then downB. It's similar to doing the same with side-B except minus the hop, so you lose the invincibility frames but get faster reach from out of range.

Also, it's as close as Sonic can get in Brawl to running and hitting down to roll XD

Platform-Canceling:

So thanks to the Falcon boards, I am messing around with an old, overlooked Brawl AT known as platform cancelling.

Basically, if you're holding down as you're rising through a moving platform and release at the right time, you'll immediately land on it. No fall time.

Further more, if you buffer a movement, you'll have a better chance of clinging to the platform and perform it (ex: neutral air will become a jab). testing edit: If you use an action to land, you can hold down the whole time and just worry about timing the action correctly!

So I was messing around on SV doing this with Sonic (the pure, hold/release [down] method) and it was meh - not so consistent. However, airdodging also counts as an action that helped him cling to the platform and it buffers shield - so I'm using this to aid my terrible reflex and get this thing down.

However, all this is pretty showy and I'm not very consistent.

This is all leading up to where I am right now, where I'm currently trying to see if you can spring > platform cancel.

List of possible moves (Tried and Tested)
Assume that I'm using airdodge to cling onto the platform and not uber-reflex [release down]. However, I have managed to pull them all off at least once without any aid, so all of these are possible regardless of the input method you use to do them:
FH > platform cancel
Footstool Jump > platform cancel
Ledge jump (hanging > hit jump) > platform cancel
VSDJ/SDJ > platform cancel
DJ > platform cancel
Side-B > DJ > platform cancel
SPINSHOT > platform cancel LOL
Drop down > DJ > platform cancel
Drop down > side-B > DJ > platform cancel
Jump through platform > fall through platform > DJ > platform cancel
FH/DJ/Ledge jump > Platform Cancel with down B*

* is special because it's easy, considering how (if you're planning to PC with an action, it'll work as long as you're holding [down]. How convenient ^^;

At some point, they get redundant (I mean hey, they're almost all DJ so far lol), but this shows the range of movements you can do, so you can get a better range of possibilities.
I wish I had better reflexes lol.

Needs more testing done, or needs a dedicated guide/write-up!

SDRUT:

SpinDash Roll Uber-Turnaround.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mv2f4KQug

Dashing Drop Down:

Dashing Drop Down (DDD)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETKnWyQzFvQ

Credit goes to Tesh for the video.

A bit of help on platforms.

Double post, I don't quite understand the airdodge cancel >B. I don't see the shield come up and I don't see a drop down animation. I also am 100% certain I only pressed shield once so it can't be a shield drop down airdodge (which would require Z twice). So >B can pull you off of platforms after you shield cancel it. This might mean you can reverse over B and drop off of platforms facing backwards. Perhaps low edgeguarding with back air's disjoint.

Aerial Spin Charge Platform Drop Through:

ASC-PDT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwPdEq9LY3E&feature=channel

Credit goes to Tesh for the video.

Some discussion of this technique:

Also this deserves some special attention I think. Could be a useful way to approach people hiding under platforms?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwPdEq9LY3E&feature=channel

I don't even know how you're doing that lol.

Care to explain for those who are too slow like me?

I read somewhere (may have been the Yoshi boards) that you can drop through platforms directly from your shield. Its just a shieldcancel then a platform drop. But when I slowed it down, I never actually saw his shield come up.

I've managed to do it a few times. (practiced on the platform of YI.) You buffer a ledgedrop before you land with your shield.

So its a buffer before you hit the ground huh? Definitely going to experiment with this.

If you figure out a good way of doing that, let me know. If you notice in the video, I always double jump then ASC. I was having alot of trouble timing it right with my double jump.

I actually didn't move my control stick to do the platform drop down. I just pressed a smash to buffer an aerial as I hit the platform. When I was too early, I was buffering a double jump aerial. When I was too late I would always spotdodge or roll (and it was much easier to do right with Up Air).

The timing is a little difficult but with practice can be learned and perfected. The height from the buffer in which you have to input the buffer looks to be about at Sonic's standing height, maybe a little lower than that like where his eyes are or something.

One problem I was encountering after a successful drop was doing an aerial w/o fastfalling on accident. Just tap down once for the buffer then release the control stick and if done right, you can do any aerial without being cut short by the land lag. With the exception of fair and dair.

Easiest way for me to do it is as soon as you release the ASC, hold shield. Then it's all in timing and placement.

Yea I was having trouble fast falling as well, I still have yet to successfully go through the entire ASC drop down uair autocancel. And the hitbox on back air doesn't even come out if you fast fall on the battlefield platforms.

Yeah, but if you manage to not fastfall when you bair, it comes out beautifully like a normal SH bair

This is the thread from the yoshi boards. Apparently the window for a drop down oos is small and the input must be somewhat "gentle". http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279572

I applied the "gentle" input and I've gotten the timing down to being able to do it nearly every time now.

I even practiced it on the platform on SV and tried other mixups using the platform drop.

If only I could record so I could make a vid of this. Nevertheless, it would be nice if we could get some clarifications on the placement and the number of frames you have to do it by. Sadly, I lack the resources to get exact calculations on that plus I'm just plan bad at it XP.

Yeah, although I don't see it being as useful as the BF platforms or the YI platform, there may be some tricks that can develop with at least the mobility of SV's platform.

OMG that move is lookin cute as fk. No lie.

also, you guys didnt even notice... if youre landing and dropping through a platform, that means instead of just aerialing, you get your double jump back. Which is HUGE.

I think BF just became a sonic counterpick.

At the end of the video, you can see I double jump ASC-spinshot. It looks cool, but you get your double jump back the moment you land. I don't see much of a reason you drop down (thus losing your first jump) then double jump. Unless you are positioning yourself to shield poke someone on the platform.

You can ASC, drop down, spinshot, platform cancel and then attack from the other side of the platform. Sort of like a way to cross-up by going under. I don't think I have the tech skill to manage that, but I'd love to have it on video.

If you want to land a double hit ASC then drop down, you have to slide the control stick from down to forward then gently back down. But for a single hit, if you knock them off the platform, you may be able to beat them to the ground and jablock. Perhaps even a good way to dair semi spike people from on stage (ASC drop down-dair as they fall off the platform).

I doubt it. Sonic's double jump doesn't seem to be that high.

Edit: This platform dropping from an ASC business is murdering my palms. I've been struggling to pull it off, but I've gotten it here and there.

I'll try the c-stick method Tesh mentioned, but I've been doing what Rave's been doing. I just buffer a down input right before I land, and it works.

It's just tough to learn the timing for it.

Yeah, I can land it almost every time now in training mode. But in the heat of a match I can't ever seem to find the correct moment or timing to pull it off.

I may try it in a match at my tourney tomorrow, or at least practice using it in a match.

Also im going to hit up Susa because i do think theres a way to cancel the ledge drop as well essentially making a perfect cancel. I think i just did it once let me try to recreate it. Susa used to do this crap all day.

Miss that guy.



EDIT: Japan does it again.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ar2M4iiB-g


When you get this down guys, try this. ASC PDT > platform cancel.
and for lolz platform cancel> instant platform drop> platform cancel> instant platform drop> etc. it looks freakin tyte.


*these are for moving platforms

It's easy Speed. I've gotten the SpinDash > Cancel & Platform drop down.
It's just a matter of sensitivity to the analog stick.

Also, platform cancels are pretty cool.

ASC PDT? Did I miss an acronym meeting, or something?

What Espy said. Although I'm still having difficulties when it comes to consistently doing it during a match. If I try to force myself to use it, I end up dropping into some nasty punishment. :l

 

[Chis]

Interesting Kinzer, just a few things.

First the up throw stuff. The opponent can also double jump at the last minute, making this seem not as reliable. Needs more talk about bait and punish options, Malcolm style :O

Also that platform push to jab lock. Can't they double jump while they're falling to avoid hitting the ground? I looked at that video, just after the power shield, before tails completely leaves the platform you can see a blue trail coming up into the platform. As if the hop was cut off by the appearance of the platform, hmmm...

Some stuff I did with that first hit of Uair > Utilt thing is fast fall through platforms and start the uair or run off them platform. It worked every now and then.

 

[Kinzer]

To be honest I'm not sure. I just got this idea from a time where even though I was trying to jump out of the tumbling state I still couldn't avoid hitting the ground. I'm thinking that stronger attacks with more shield pushback will have opponents stuck in the tumbling state longer; perhaps long enough to where they can't help but be put into the perfect position to be jab-locked. Again though since I'd rather not find out in the middle of a match (and because opponents aren't always knowledgeable/consistent), I'll see if I can find the time to boot up Debug mode and find out frame-by-frame.

Oh and there was one last thing I forgot to mention... sue me, it was late last night and I was tired. :X

Again, I've only just recently noticed this. Perhaps other people might've incorporated it into their game already, or they're more familiar with it than me, but regardless:

How often do you find yourself using the leanback from a charged Forward Smash to avoid an opponent's attack and to counter with a big fist up their butt?

No, I'm not talknig about Hypnosmash, but in a sense it does require that the opponent put themselves into a situation that can get them hit. I want to use Falco as my prime example since he falls so fast that he has to commit to an aerial/landing and if you just happen to be in the right spot I don't think he has much of a chance to avoid getting hit by it. However that's one example, and I wonder how often it could work. You can't do the same thing with Fox because he can just shine stall above you until the charge goes off by itself, Drill-Dair you into an USmash, and yeah... not a pretty picture.

Anybody? It's just a nice thing to know since FSmash is Sonic's strongest kill move, but that isn't saying much since Sonic doesn't have any set-ups into the attack, nevermind that it's average in killpower at best.

 

[Tenki]

I used to do a retreating F-smash way back. It's probably more effective than a stay-in-place F-smash.

[Back]-[forward+A]

Basically, it's like what 'd happen if you tried to do manually do a stutter step
( [back]-[Cstick forward] )

Shugo used it to beat OS in one of those early epic games - F-smash > retreating F-smash.

made me proud lol.

 

[Joemama8]

i use the reverse studder step fsmash too, with great success! (so good)

also u throw chains generally only work on baddies. I can only really get 2 or 3 off before anyone whos worth anything gets outta them (mine still needs some work thou) but i guess thats still 30%

also the dumb bush platform on PS1 produces the air ISDR as well as a stay in place ISDR on the other side. But i bet everyone knew that already...

 

[Kinzer]

Oh I just remembered something else.

we all know Sonic's Jab is garbage, but it's because it's so bad that it has this funny use if you ever get the opportunity to use it.

I have been able to lock people against a wall with a whole jab combo, usually the most it goes for is around 80% because by then Jab will deal enough knockback to send people into the tumbling state, but by then if your opponent doesn't try to DI out of it or tech it's a perfect jab-lock set-up.

I can get a video of it really quick, depending on how fast YT's uploading speed is, but just try it out in a real match. I wouldn't recommend training mode because the stale move counter isn't online in training mode and I think part of why the pseudo-lock works is because Sonic's full 1-2-3 punch combo is decayed. Even still it can work at at a low percent because again it's weak enough to make opponents go into the "gah, I've been hit! D:" state, but not so much the "wah~! I'm falling~! X<" state. Yeah excuse the emoticons.

I'll update this post and the OP with this new little piece of info along with a small demonstration video when I get it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy8Ol-5hyw

Here it is. I've also taken the liberty of adding more information into the description box, and I'm still adding some more stuff as I remember them. Learn this well guys.

 

[Joemama8]

neat find.

If I ever do this in a legit match I shall say, "So this kinzer guy taught me this..... pretty cheap right. I mean this is so ea..SURPRISE SAWNIK ABORTION!"

 

[~TBS~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy8Ol-5hyw

yee kinzer. i was wondering if i was actually trapping someone...i caught multiple people with this(yes recently/in the past), but i thought that i was continuing the chain on them because they just wasnt sheilding...but thanks for figuring out you can catch people with this.

hmm...is it weird thati feel weird watching my own vids? (its a weird question, i know, but i feel reaaalllly weird watching my own vids. :< )

 

[Joemama8]

hmm...is it weird thati feel weird watching my own vids? (its a weird question, i know, but i feel reaaalllly weird watching my own vids. :< )

I like to watch my own vids so that I can see what I did right/wrong, but I always feel like my sonic is 10000000x slower than other pplz when I go from other vids to mine.....

 

[Kupo Rose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy8Ol-5hyw

I remember seeing this in Muhsoce's combo video (the fox clip). Didn't really know if that was an actual trap or if someone had bad SDI lol.

Cheers for goin into detail though :)

 

[Kinzer]

hmm...is it weird thati feel weird watching my own vids? (its a weird question, i know, but i feel reaaalllly weird watching my own vids. :< )

No it's not just you, I feel giddy watching what few (good) videos I do have, even if it isn't much because I still lose to Vegas' best. I'm working on that though.

Oh BTW, I'm pretty sure if you manage to hit somebody with the hitbox at the tip of Down Tilt, that works as another set-up because of the way the angle sends them and how Sonic moves forward along with it. Also pretty good to know that with fastfallers, you could probably get them with the hitbox on the leg and still get the silly thing to work; just make sure they don't SDI behind you.

 

[ElDominio]

Oh I just remembered something else.

we all know Sonic's Jab is garbage, but it's because it's so bad that it has this funny use if you ever get the opportunity to use it.

I have been able to lock people against a wall with a whole jab combo, usually the most it goes for is around 80% because by then Jab will deal enough knockback to send people into the tumbling state, but by then if your opponent doesn't try to DI out of it or tech it's a perfect jab-lock set-up.

I can get a video of it really quick, depending on how fast YT's uploading speed is, but just try it out in a real match. I wouldn't recommend training mode because the stale move counter isn't online in training mode and I think part of why the pseudo-lock works is because Sonic's full 1-2-3 punch combo is decayed. Even still it can work at at a low percent because again it's weak enough to make opponents go into the "gah, I've been hit! D:" state, but not so much the "wah~! I'm falling~! X<" state. Yeah excuse the emoticons.

I'll update this post and the OP with this new little piece of info along with a small demonstration video when I get it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy8Ol-5hyw

Here it is. I've also taken the liberty of adding more information into the description box, and I'm still adding some more stuff as I remember them. Learn this well guys.

It does work, I did this on TWiNK and I usually get him, but I screw up my timing after some time...

I did this online on a Wolf on Corneria and got him to about 150, then just clean F-Smashed

 

[Tenki]

does anyone still punish airdodges with double hit ASC?

XD while back, I had this idea for a 0 -> 40%+ on stages like BF -
U-throw/F-throw > full hop ASC (charge) > They airdodge / miss attack > punish landing lag (they land on a platform above you) / airdodge with double hit ASC > aerial

 

[Joemama8]

does anyone still punish airdodges with double hit ASC?

XD while back, I had this idea for a 0 -> 40%+ on stages like BF -
U-throw/F-throw > full hop ASC (charge) > They airdodge / miss attack > punish landing lag (they land on a platform above you) / airdodge with double hit ASC > aerial

hmmmm, don't know if this is a secret pwn combo that will instantly make me a better player, but I am definitely going to try this one out. Doubt It would work against MK though since he would either not lag and punish your punish, or simply fly away. Ima try this next time I play. Cool share!

 

[B.A.M.]

u know bair jab and tipper dtilt all setup for jablocks at certain percents. Learn perfect asc for punishing spotdodges in dash grab situations. spindash>footstool or spin-dash>footstool spring (*at lower percents) leads into a tech chase (imagine that). SHFFuair>utilt trap is **** when spaced.

You know itd be nice to know some frame advantage and disadvantage with decay included one day for sonic. So much other characters have that data. However it just seems to elude us. Thats what we should be looking into. O and BDacus with sonic seems unpunishable and potentially combos into tipper dtilt, as well as good for alot of follow ups. Discuss.

 

[Tenki]

THIS TENKI KID AND HIS SPINDASH lol

Kind of random, but an overlooked tidbit that I just confirmed for myself today:

You can down-b out of fulldash
..lol


Like, the screech stop animation has some IASA frames for say, jab, but you can cancel bypass the screechstop at by doing a down-B during fulldash.

So basically,
instead of
Run > screechstop > downB ...
you can do
Run > downB ...

It isn't that there's IASA during screechstop moreso than a "Run state can turn into down-B"

This also means that you can, for example, run, singlecharge down-B and release, and it's pretty similar to dash attack, except with more commitment and comboability.

Implications:
- alternative to dash attack
- pressure game tool: you don't have to commit to SC until right before you have to hit with it - you can run to your desired spot then downB. It's similar to doing the same with side-B except minus the hop, so you lose the invincibility frames but get faster reach from out of range.

Also, it's as close as Sonic can get in Brawl to running and hitting down to roll XD

 

[Trent]

Kind of random, but an overlooked tidbit that I just confirmed for myself today:

You can down-b out of fulldash
..lol


Like, the screech stop animation has some IASA frames for say, jab, but you can cancel the screechstop at any point by just doing a down-B.

This also means that you can, for example, run, singlecharge down-B and release, and it's pretty similar to dash attack, except with more commitment and comboability.

Implications:
- alternative to dash attack
- pressure game tool: you don't have to commit to SC until right before you have to hit with it - you can run to your desired spot then downB. It's similar to doing the same with side-B except minus the hop, so you lose the invincibility frames but get faster reach from out of range.

Also, it's as close as Sonic can get in Brawl to running and hitting down to roll XD

I already do this in most of my matches. A little too much I'm afraid that it becomes predictable.

 

[Kinzer]

...I like it!

Now I don't need to worry about being immediately punished for my DA which has a set path. Tenki I'm just going to put that entire post in the OP, let me know if you want me to take it down or something.

 

[Tenki]

I already do this in most of my matches. A little too much I'm afraid that it becomes predictable.

Of course.

It's the same issue with dash attack, isn't it?

If you dash attack whenever you run towards people, of course it'll get predictable lol.

But as mentioned, this is an alternative to dash attack.

lol it feels so obvious (and heck, I've done downB out of run before), but I just realized that you actually skip the screech stop altogether if you do the downB input while in fulldash.

 

[infomon]

Kind of random, but an overlooked tidbit that I just confirmed for myself today:

You can down-b out of fulldash
..lol

Tenki, I remember when you discovered that. In 2008.

You yourself have just failed at the hands of: "anything anyone finds out about Sonic was already discovered by Tenki."

I'll find you the post if you want.

It's probably in your own thread.

 

[B.A.M.]

^ ^ this man speaks the truth

 

[Tenki]

I mean to highlight not the action of doing a fulldash > downB

but the fact that doing it skips the screechstop animation (thus, is faster than I previously thought) XD

 

[infomon]

oic.

all hail king tenksalot.

 

[Tenki]

So thanks to the Falcon boards, I am messing around with an old, overlooked Brawl AT known as platform cancelling.

Basically, if you're holding down as you're rising through a moving platform and release at the right time, you'll immediately land on it. No fall time.

Further more, if you buffer a movement, you'll have a better chance of clinging to the platform and perform it (ex: neutral air will become a jab). testing edit: If you use an action to land, you can hold down the whole time and just worry about timing the action correctly!

So I was messing around on SV doing this with Sonic (the pure, hold/release [down] method) and it was meh - not so consistent. However, airdodging also counts as an action that helped him cling to the platform and it buffers shield - so I'm using this to aid my terrible reflex and get this thing down.

However, all this is pretty showy and I'm not very consistent.

This is all leading up to where I am right now, where I'm currently trying to see if you can spring > platform cancel.

List of possible moves (Tried and Tested)
Assume that I'm using airdodge to cling onto the platform and not uber-reflex [release down]. However, I have managed to pull them all off at least once without any aid, so all of these are possible regardless of the input method you use to do them:
FH > platform cancel
Footstool Jump > platform cancel
Ledge jump (hanging > hit jump) > platform cancel
VSDJ/SDJ > platform cancel
DJ > platform cancel
Side-B > DJ > platform cancel
SPINSHOT > platform cancel LOL
Drop down > DJ > platform cancel
Drop down > side-B > DJ > platform cancel
Jump through platform > fall through platform > DJ > platform cancel
FH/DJ/Ledge jump > Platform Cancel with down B*

* is special because it's easy, considering how (if you're planning to PC with an action, it'll work as long as you're holding [down]. How convenient ^^;

At some point, they get redundant (I mean hey, they're almost all DJ so far lol), but this shows the range of movements you can do, so you can get a better range of possibilities.
I wish I had better reflexes lol.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

It's nice to see someone finally Looked into the smaller details of sonic's metagame. I've myself have been trying to figure out some things about sonic that we don't really pickup on during matches but i never have the time, nor the right way to explain it too ppl. ATm i'm trying to figure out how soon you can Can the turn around animation when running becuz you can cancel it with a very quick duck and then go straight into a full speed run again. This could cut some time spacing and timing for certain moves and when we can attack out of turnaround. Then theres vertical spin jumps which i feel have alot of potential in being used for some mindgames. But ether way nice finds Kinzer.

 

[Kinzer]

I don't claim to have found these things, it's just a more recent thread dedicated to the small stuff. >_>

 

[Tenki]

*worked on your spacing
smashpuns

It's nice to see someone finally Looked into the smaller details of sonic's metagame. I've myself have been trying to figure out some things about sonic that we don't really pickup on during matches but i never have the time, nor the right way to explain it too ppl.

[1] ATm i'm trying to figure out how soon you can Can the turn around animation when running becuz you can cancel it with a very quick duck and then go straight into a full speed run again. This could cut some time spacing and timing for certain moves and when we can attack out of turnaround.

[2] Then theres vertical spin jumps which i feel have alot of potential in being used for some mindgames. But ether way nice finds Kinzer.

[1] Make sure it's not brawl+ lol

[2] Recently, I've only used VSDJ to mask what direction I'm really facing (ex: I want to B-air, so I run, B-reverse>VSDJ). I haven't actually used it to hit people, but if I recall correctly, it was still an option out of u-throw, one that I keep forgetting about lol.

---------
Has anyone messed with the platform cancel tricks?

They're kinda minor, but hey, Sonic's floaty. Clinging to at least the platform in smashville sounds pretty cool.

 

[B.A.M.]

yeah ive been cancelling platforms for a bit since Susa showed me late 08 early 09. ive done uair platform cancel utilt. sometimes SH FFuair> FH platform cancel into a jablock since they dont get as much time to to land properly if they land on the platform. Juggling the opponent till the SV platform comes around to platform cancel fsmash or dsmash. Even ASC perfect combo>platform cancel> virtually any ground attack with decent frame speed ( ive jablocked outta this too VERY SITUATIONAL). We got some sick combos sometimes out of it lol.

 

[Tenki]

^ lol cool.


Some other 'thing' to look at - from the Tier List thread:

Wolf's bair can't hit a pikachu from above whilst crouching?

I forgot what prompted that quote, but a followup brought up this point:
No, Wolf can't hit a crouching Pikachu with a rising aerial of any sort.

Now, I don't honestly think that crouching as Sonic will win you any immunity from any important attacks, but the important implication that I wanted to check out in relation to Sonic was that this situation (as Pikachu) would force Wolf to use an aerial in a way that would cause landing lag.

I wonder if there are any situations that we can use this in - and since shielding would force you to return to standing height, it'd actually create a larger area to powershield.

 

[darkNES386]

^ lol cool

I wonder if there are any situations that we can use this in - and since shielding would force you to return to standing height, it'd actually create a larger area to powershield.

Are you saying crounch->powershield? That sounds brilliant.
But does crouching at a lower percentages serve a similar purpose as in Melee?

 

[Espy Rose]

You mean like crouch-canceling?
I don't think so, if that's the case.

And holy gods, DNES, it's been AGES.

 

[darkNES386]

I just got back from China... crazy times, watched some of your vids. Can't wait to see your skills in MLG... yes you're going right Espy?

yes, crouch-canceling... but this would be more to force a miss on an aerial that is timed earlier to avoid lag (like tenki said).

Back on topic though... this should all be discussed in detail and then shortened into a nice educational video.

 

[Espy Rose]

Oh.

Yeah, MLG Dallas most likely.

Also, yeah, the crouch on Sonic does avoid certain attacks. It works well when the opponent is used to attacking from above.

I've done my fair share of crouch dodging.

 

[darkNES386]

Oh.

Yeah, MLG Dallas most likely.

Also, yeah, the crouch on Sonic does avoid certain attacks. It works well when the opponent is used to attacking from above.

I've done my fair share of crouch dodging.

How do you deal with a toon link/peach who obviously knows how to space and abuse aerial priority moves with minimal lag?

 

[Espy Rose]

Put pressure on them and push them towards one of the edges. Makes them more likely to mess up since they have less breathing room.
Also, z-catching bombs and turnips helps.

 

[darkNES386]

Put pressure on them and push them towards one of the edges. Makes them more likely to mess up since they have less breathing room.
Also, z-catching bombs and turnips helps.

You'll have to be more descriptive about how Sonic puts pressure on Toon Link/Peach

 

[Espy Rose]

Toon Link needs room to jump around and pull out bombs, boomerangs, in his chain. When you get inside of him (not too close because most of his attacks out range and out speed yours), he'll retreat to create more space.

Force him to the edge by slowly making your way closer, and you'll be in range to punish most of his moves.

Alternately, you could camp and wait for him to approach. That might be difficult because you'll be dodging several attacks at once on several occasions.

Peach. Just play keep away with bair until she's hit towards the edges. It limits her options. She's also very slow in the air compared to Sonic's ground speed, so it's easy to avoid damage if you lose control and they attack back.

 

[Kinzer]

Kinzer casts: Phoenix down!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTnly7rFOfw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ44YkkJngU

*Will update the video, this post, and the OP later.*

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

u guys should looking in SCCSD(Spin charge cancelled sliding Dsmash) and SCCSU(spin charged cancelled sliding utilt) on Yoshi's island melee. I was testing it out and it works just my doing a spin charge and then after releasing press the attack button and do a uptilt or dsmash. i guess u keep the momentum from the spin charge for a little bit and it carries u up the slopes on those stages. this is also used on PS1 on the fire stage but hasn't rly seen much use. I just felt like pointing these 2 things out.

 

[BSP]

No ones going to take YI melee seriously unfortunately.