Kinzer
Mammy
Kinzer here.
So I don't know if it's just me, but there are some things that I don't recall getting their own thread, they are too recent of discoveries to have actually got it's own thread (and probably nothing major enoguh to warrent its own thread), or it doesn't even have a dedicated "mini-guide" to help others understand the physics behind the technique.
If I can just have a couple of moments of your time to post your speculations on some of this that would be really appreciated.
As for further research on some of these things, we'll either wait for somebody to post what they know on the subject, or hopefully take the time to read more into what it is. This thread is here for the sake of compressing it all into one place and having the more brainy Sonic's break it down.
Up throw guaranteed combos/pseudo-followups:
This should be self-explanitory; if you've been playing Sonic long enough you must have at least figured out one or two possible follow-ups, or ones that are guaranteed to work no matter what, or at least at low percent. Now for those that aren't quite aware let's take a look at the basics.
Up-Throw does 12% damage undiminished, and continues to be Sonic's best damaging throw for another 3 before Forward Throw does more damage (9%). Now considering Sonic's Speed, it is very easy to get a grab going and at around 0-50% reading your opponent's reaction out of the throw's hitstun becomes second nature.
Mainly effective on the fatties/heavies/fast-fallers, if you are feeling too uncomfortable to risk trying to read your opponent's landing and go for another Up throw (or sometimes they react by jumping/doing something else), you usually have enough of a positional advantage to Up air, Back air, (possibly) Forward air, (lolno) Neutral air, and in the extreme cases Up tilt, with the latter working at a very low percent; perhaps no more than 10%. That's being generous.
Now it also depends on where your opponent goes/what he does after that varies how you choose to continue a chain from an Up throw. Take for example an Up tilt follow-up, nevermind that a certain damage condition has to be met as well as the opponent's character having the right attributes, usually you have to check to see which way they went. You should all be aware that the opponent can use Directional Influence to change their trajectory, and if your opponent is any good they will be sent behind you.
Excuse me, that's really only at unusually high percents, at a low percent like 0-10%, the opponent would have you guess which way to Up tilt (again, assuming they want to keep you on your feet and make you guess/adapt). Sadly yes an Up tilt is not 100% guaranteed and you either need to turn-around accordingly to have the Up tilt connect, or the opponent could simply not apply any Directional Influence and in which case you just want to Up tilt the way you were facing when you initiated the throw. If successful you should have racked up a nice ~25% on them from one simple Up throw to Up tilt combo.
Now at a higher percent that will start to deteriorate; perhaps Up tilt will only connect with the last hit (not too bad), or it won't connect all-together. In this case it's probably a good idea to chase with aerials. Without having done thorough research on the whole cast, I can assume somewhere around 60-75% is when the aerial strings would stop working. Even then they can't really be guaranteed. It may also depend on the character itself, take for example Meta Knight has a really fast and length Down air and something like a Forward air would simply not work on him. However a perfectly spaced Up air or a well-timed Back air should be able to get around the sword and push Meta Knight away with some more tacked on damage. Meta Knight is also a light character so you may have to double jump in some cases. That is assuming the Meta Knight chooses to throw out a Down air in hopes if hitting you out of a failed attempt of an aerial chain. If he chooses to jump simply nothing will happen and you two are back at neutral position... Or somewhere close to it, it will take him a while to get back to the ground, in which case you could test your luck by reading his landing, or spaced SHFFUairs to keep juggling him.
It may also be worthy to mention that even though having to jump seems a bit slow, and double-jumping moreso, I find a lot of these strings to work despite how much reaction time there is inbetween. Or maybe it's just my imagination thinking that it's all so slow and maybe some of these aerial strings/switch-ups actually do work. Again without a thorough list it is difficult if not impossible to know what will work in what situation with what character. Hopefully with more time that will be fixed, but for now we need people to start paying attention and experimenting.
*insert anymore data that might've not been mentioned, or any new possible things that may come up with time here.*
*Insert big list of character attributes and at the least minimum guaranteed combos and their respective working %ages and damage outputs here.*
Invincible Spin Dash Roll on transformation transactions:
As far as I know, this is something very new and requires that people look really well into this.
Here's a couple of video examples for those who prefer to learn visually:
First.
Second.
(If the links are dead, take a look at these links, both 40 seconds into them):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpCKlSdQQ2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiQ0zCUIJjk&feature=related
September 20th edit:
Now apparently possible on Frigate as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ44YkkJngU
Notice how Sonic's Spin Dash Roll became an Airdash despite there not being a 45 degree angle which is usually the condition that needs to be met in order to initiate an iSDR/Airdash?
If this works on Castle Siege, there shouldn't be any reason this can't work on Delfino Plaza OR FRIGATE.Unfortunately as of April 25th, 2010, there is no documentary of it working. Tails had made a sort of video as for the visual queue, but I can't find it at the moment... Will fix at a later time.
Once again, for anybody that knows anymore about this, it is highly recommend you fill everybody in on what's the deal. So far it's that there seems to be a strict window of opportunity.
Platform Jab-lock/follow-up set-ups:
This one's pretty easy to get the idea of.
Have you ever noticed that when you shield an attack near the edge of a platform that you get pushed off, and if you hit the floor you get put into the position to be jab-locked? Perhaps you're more familiar with being pushed onto the ledge and hanging from there because that's usually what catches you, if there isn't any ground to stop you from falling off. Regradless if you weren't already familiar with this concept you should be thinking of ways to get that perfect set-up on your opponent from a platform and right into your jabs which lead directly to a nicely timed and powerful Forward smash.
Sometimes what may happen with multi-hit attacks such as Forward air is that you push your opponent off and instead of attacking his/her shield he/she is now taking the rest of the unused hits. At least this if the opponent wasn't somewhere near the middle of the platform and the move doesn't end soon enough. Same thing with Up smash.
However here's the thing. What if your opponent doesn't get knocked off? Is there enough time for another attempt at knocking them off? What about possible counters for being too slow? It's a gamble, with something like Up smash and you have to bare with the move's end lag and the opponent wasn't sent flying away or knocked into the tumbling state.
It works best with Bair air/Neutral air thanks to their superior shield pushback and for the most part their short landing lag.
Just food for though, some of you may probably already be well-aware of this, but it should get it's own mention on this forum which I have yet to see, and it's always nice to discuss more in-depth with others.
Aerial to grounded follow-ups:
At low percentages and thanks to Sonic's aerials having for the most part quick recovery time when done properly, it is sometimes possible to get some strings going with an aerial in the right place with the right percents. Have you ever done a first hit Up air into an Up tilt, or perhaps a Back air into a Dash attack or Forward or Down tilt? That's the idea. Neutral air if it hits is probably the easiest to link attacks with thanks to it's relatively low knockback (with either the strong or weak hits), even at a medium percent.
Sometimes it may even be a good idea to Forward air with the intention of going into the "fish-flop" state so that your opponent isn't sent away by the strong hit and thus follow-up into something that's quick and packs a punch, usually into a grab or an up tilt. Beware though for if the opponent sees it coming you could be the one who gets punished hard.
Once again, this all depends on the opponents' characters, and who they will react to these strings. Sometimes it will work like it should, other times it won't be as effective, if it even achieves some success.
*Insert a more concrete list of character attributes and at the least guaranteed combos here.*
Wall Jab-Lock:
Visual demonstration
Most, if not everything you need to know about this in detail is in the description box of the video given, but it will also be below as follow:
With Sonic's Jab dealing insignificant knockback, it's almost difficult to be able to properly apply it in your game. Though limited in where it can appear and how it can be set up, it's because Sonic's Jab being so weak that this technique works at all.
If you have an opponent against a wall in your jab combo, you can link more full jab combos onto one another for a reasonably long while, and rack up a considerable amount of damage without much risk taken and little room for error on your part. Just be careful that you aren't too slow and give your opponent enough time to shield the next jab barrage and counter with whatever is appropriate for them.
Although the effectiveness can vary from character to character, once it starts it works the same way for one character as it would any other. It may also help to have the jab-combo weakened enough and the opponent be at a low enough percent to where they won't get sent into the tumbling state and have no choice but to continue taking blows.
Although I can't be bothered to give character and damage/decay-specific frame-data, there are still plenty of situational set-ups and follow-ups from this. If the opponent doesn't tech or attack after a jab-combo makes them go into a tumble, it's the perfect regular jab-lock set-up, which racks up even more damage and possibly gives you a guaranteed Knockout punch. It is also possible to stop the jab-combo shortly before the opponent goes into a tumble and grab them, then rack up damage from there on out with pummels and a throw afterwards, which that in itself may set-up for a jab-lock if the opponent is really out of it (probably best with Forward Throw and the occasional "Why is this working again?" D Throw).
This even has its own set-up, somewhat. Yes, the opponent needs to be up against a wall, yes they need to be at the right percent, but if you manage to grab somebody against a wall and ground grab-release them it can put them right into the position to get wall jab-locked. Do a bit of research though, this will not work on some characters, due to having an attack just as fast, if not faster than Sonic's 3-frame jab, and moreso than not a spotdodge can help them avoid it. At least with a spotdodge though it leaves them in a predictable defensive maneuver and you can time that t get them into the wall-lock. It's very nice to be able to Rapid Jab by just the holding of the A button.
The best of all this is that if the opponent does get caught in this, it's basically guaranteed until 60% if you manage to do it before then. Not even SDI can save them from the blunt beating.
The Flying Battery:
The Flying Battery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTnly7rFOfw
A neat little trick that any character who can walljump do on Frigate's second transformation.
What makes me give this little technique it's name is probably because Sonic is best capable of making this work. It isn't Sonic-specific, but anyway, if you take a look at the video, you'll see that there are two specific spots below the stage from which you can constantly walljump from one side to the other. A recovery/stalling technique if you would.
As with all batteries, they eventually run out of juice. This technique cannot be done forever, being that with every wall-jump performed, the height gained becomes less and less. Now because the stage stops Sonic from going up any higher than given, what you need to worry about is how long and how low you can go before you have to land back on the stage or plummet downwards. The practical walljump limit is Twenty. I have managed to get more, but by then I had to mash/time my walljumps. Also if you're not fast enough, you'll sink too low to reach the "wall" part and by then something has to happen.
Sonic can access the wall-jumping parts easy, being that he has an excellent recovery, and Homing Attack provides for more leeway. Do note however that this technique does not keep Sonic from being invulnerable. Characters with flexible projectiles like Ness or Snake can still very well reach him and hit him out. Other characters like Meta Knight or Pit can simply go up to Sonic and swat him, and still have enough leeway to make it back to the stage themselves. Be especially careful when you find that you've reached the walljump limit and you're trying to make it back to the ledge. There are a lot of ways to make it safer, for one, Homing Attack. Second, you can walljump off the wall that has the ledge. Spring also goes a ways up but if you get cypher-gimped that's no good.
If you find yourself stuck and unable to get back to the ledge while you're Homing Attack Stalling, be sure to use B-Reversing. You won't have your second jump however, so make sure you don't mess that up and accidentally Spindash to your doom.
I'm not sure if it's possible to do the Flying Battery from one side to the other along with Homing Attack stalling. I tried but as you will see I failed to do so. It may not be at all possible, or perhaps because the other Sonic was there it was throwing off the Homing Attack's lock-on and sending me back to the last side.
Treadmill-canceled Up-Smash (into) Back-Air (TCUSBA):
TCUSBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZfz3CIrAQQ
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
As for what this is, when you commit to a ground attack on the treadmill on the electric part of Pokemon Stadium II, you will be relieved of any sort of lag due to being pushed off from the ground into the air. The essentially makes things such as Forward smash lagless and leads into some pretty wicked combos that normally wouldn't be possible.
"Super Sonic Stadiums:"
Super Sonic Stadiums
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lumj9kYOYhc
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
In short, There's some pretty crazy stuff you can do on Pokemon Stadium I and II...
The Physics of Yoshi's Isle: Melee:
SDRUT:
SpinDash Roll Uber-Turnaround.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mv2f4KQug
Dashing Drop Down:
Dashing Drop Down (DDD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETKnWyQzFvQ
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
ASC-PDT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwPdEq9LY3E&feature=channel
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
Some discussion of this technique:
So I don't know if it's just me, but there are some things that I don't recall getting their own thread, they are too recent of discoveries to have actually got it's own thread (and probably nothing major enoguh to warrent its own thread), or it doesn't even have a dedicated "mini-guide" to help others understand the physics behind the technique.
If I can just have a couple of moments of your time to post your speculations on some of this that would be really appreciated.
As for further research on some of these things, we'll either wait for somebody to post what they know on the subject, or hopefully take the time to read more into what it is. This thread is here for the sake of compressing it all into one place and having the more brainy Sonic's break it down.
Up throw guaranteed combos/pseudo-followups:
This should be self-explanitory; if you've been playing Sonic long enough you must have at least figured out one or two possible follow-ups, or ones that are guaranteed to work no matter what, or at least at low percent. Now for those that aren't quite aware let's take a look at the basics.
Up-Throw does 12% damage undiminished, and continues to be Sonic's best damaging throw for another 3 before Forward Throw does more damage (9%). Now considering Sonic's Speed, it is very easy to get a grab going and at around 0-50% reading your opponent's reaction out of the throw's hitstun becomes second nature.
Mainly effective on the fatties/heavies/fast-fallers, if you are feeling too uncomfortable to risk trying to read your opponent's landing and go for another Up throw (or sometimes they react by jumping/doing something else), you usually have enough of a positional advantage to Up air, Back air, (possibly) Forward air, (lolno) Neutral air, and in the extreme cases Up tilt, with the latter working at a very low percent; perhaps no more than 10%. That's being generous.
Now it also depends on where your opponent goes/what he does after that varies how you choose to continue a chain from an Up throw. Take for example an Up tilt follow-up, nevermind that a certain damage condition has to be met as well as the opponent's character having the right attributes, usually you have to check to see which way they went. You should all be aware that the opponent can use Directional Influence to change their trajectory, and if your opponent is any good they will be sent behind you.
Excuse me, that's really only at unusually high percents, at a low percent like 0-10%, the opponent would have you guess which way to Up tilt (again, assuming they want to keep you on your feet and make you guess/adapt). Sadly yes an Up tilt is not 100% guaranteed and you either need to turn-around accordingly to have the Up tilt connect, or the opponent could simply not apply any Directional Influence and in which case you just want to Up tilt the way you were facing when you initiated the throw. If successful you should have racked up a nice ~25% on them from one simple Up throw to Up tilt combo.
Now at a higher percent that will start to deteriorate; perhaps Up tilt will only connect with the last hit (not too bad), or it won't connect all-together. In this case it's probably a good idea to chase with aerials. Without having done thorough research on the whole cast, I can assume somewhere around 60-75% is when the aerial strings would stop working. Even then they can't really be guaranteed. It may also depend on the character itself, take for example Meta Knight has a really fast and length Down air and something like a Forward air would simply not work on him. However a perfectly spaced Up air or a well-timed Back air should be able to get around the sword and push Meta Knight away with some more tacked on damage. Meta Knight is also a light character so you may have to double jump in some cases. That is assuming the Meta Knight chooses to throw out a Down air in hopes if hitting you out of a failed attempt of an aerial chain. If he chooses to jump simply nothing will happen and you two are back at neutral position... Or somewhere close to it, it will take him a while to get back to the ground, in which case you could test your luck by reading his landing, or spaced SHFFUairs to keep juggling him.
It may also be worthy to mention that even though having to jump seems a bit slow, and double-jumping moreso, I find a lot of these strings to work despite how much reaction time there is inbetween. Or maybe it's just my imagination thinking that it's all so slow and maybe some of these aerial strings/switch-ups actually do work. Again without a thorough list it is difficult if not impossible to know what will work in what situation with what character. Hopefully with more time that will be fixed, but for now we need people to start paying attention and experimenting.
*insert anymore data that might've not been mentioned, or any new possible things that may come up with time here.*
*Insert big list of character attributes and at the least minimum guaranteed combos and their respective working %ages and damage outputs here.*
Invincible Spin Dash Roll on transformation transactions:
As far as I know, this is something very new and requires that people look really well into this.
Here's a couple of video examples for those who prefer to learn visually:
First.
Second.
(If the links are dead, take a look at these links, both 40 seconds into them):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpCKlSdQQ2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiQ0zCUIJjk&feature=related
September 20th edit:
Now apparently possible on Frigate as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ44YkkJngU
Notice how Sonic's Spin Dash Roll became an Airdash despite there not being a 45 degree angle which is usually the condition that needs to be met in order to initiate an iSDR/Airdash?
If this works on Castle Siege, there shouldn't be any reason this can't work on Delfino Plaza OR FRIGATE.
Once again, for anybody that knows anymore about this, it is highly recommend you fill everybody in on what's the deal. So far it's that there seems to be a strict window of opportunity.
Platform Jab-lock/follow-up set-ups:
This one's pretty easy to get the idea of.
Have you ever noticed that when you shield an attack near the edge of a platform that you get pushed off, and if you hit the floor you get put into the position to be jab-locked? Perhaps you're more familiar with being pushed onto the ledge and hanging from there because that's usually what catches you, if there isn't any ground to stop you from falling off. Regradless if you weren't already familiar with this concept you should be thinking of ways to get that perfect set-up on your opponent from a platform and right into your jabs which lead directly to a nicely timed and powerful Forward smash.
Sometimes what may happen with multi-hit attacks such as Forward air is that you push your opponent off and instead of attacking his/her shield he/she is now taking the rest of the unused hits. At least this if the opponent wasn't somewhere near the middle of the platform and the move doesn't end soon enough. Same thing with Up smash.
However here's the thing. What if your opponent doesn't get knocked off? Is there enough time for another attempt at knocking them off? What about possible counters for being too slow? It's a gamble, with something like Up smash and you have to bare with the move's end lag and the opponent wasn't sent flying away or knocked into the tumbling state.
It works best with Bair air/Neutral air thanks to their superior shield pushback and for the most part their short landing lag.
Just food for though, some of you may probably already be well-aware of this, but it should get it's own mention on this forum which I have yet to see, and it's always nice to discuss more in-depth with others.
Aerial to grounded follow-ups:
At low percentages and thanks to Sonic's aerials having for the most part quick recovery time when done properly, it is sometimes possible to get some strings going with an aerial in the right place with the right percents. Have you ever done a first hit Up air into an Up tilt, or perhaps a Back air into a Dash attack or Forward or Down tilt? That's the idea. Neutral air if it hits is probably the easiest to link attacks with thanks to it's relatively low knockback (with either the strong or weak hits), even at a medium percent.
Sometimes it may even be a good idea to Forward air with the intention of going into the "fish-flop" state so that your opponent isn't sent away by the strong hit and thus follow-up into something that's quick and packs a punch, usually into a grab or an up tilt. Beware though for if the opponent sees it coming you could be the one who gets punished hard.
Once again, this all depends on the opponents' characters, and who they will react to these strings. Sometimes it will work like it should, other times it won't be as effective, if it even achieves some success.
*Insert a more concrete list of character attributes and at the least guaranteed combos here.*
Wall Jab-Lock:
Visual demonstration
Most, if not everything you need to know about this in detail is in the description box of the video given, but it will also be below as follow:
With Sonic's Jab dealing insignificant knockback, it's almost difficult to be able to properly apply it in your game. Though limited in where it can appear and how it can be set up, it's because Sonic's Jab being so weak that this technique works at all.
If you have an opponent against a wall in your jab combo, you can link more full jab combos onto one another for a reasonably long while, and rack up a considerable amount of damage without much risk taken and little room for error on your part. Just be careful that you aren't too slow and give your opponent enough time to shield the next jab barrage and counter with whatever is appropriate for them.
Although the effectiveness can vary from character to character, once it starts it works the same way for one character as it would any other. It may also help to have the jab-combo weakened enough and the opponent be at a low enough percent to where they won't get sent into the tumbling state and have no choice but to continue taking blows.
Although I can't be bothered to give character and damage/decay-specific frame-data, there are still plenty of situational set-ups and follow-ups from this. If the opponent doesn't tech or attack after a jab-combo makes them go into a tumble, it's the perfect regular jab-lock set-up, which racks up even more damage and possibly gives you a guaranteed Knockout punch. It is also possible to stop the jab-combo shortly before the opponent goes into a tumble and grab them, then rack up damage from there on out with pummels and a throw afterwards, which that in itself may set-up for a jab-lock if the opponent is really out of it (probably best with Forward Throw and the occasional "Why is this working again?" D Throw).
This even has its own set-up, somewhat. Yes, the opponent needs to be up against a wall, yes they need to be at the right percent, but if you manage to grab somebody against a wall and ground grab-release them it can put them right into the position to get wall jab-locked. Do a bit of research though, this will not work on some characters, due to having an attack just as fast, if not faster than Sonic's 3-frame jab, and moreso than not a spotdodge can help them avoid it. At least with a spotdodge though it leaves them in a predictable defensive maneuver and you can time that t get them into the wall-lock. It's very nice to be able to Rapid Jab by just the holding of the A button.
The best of all this is that if the opponent does get caught in this, it's basically guaranteed until 60% if you manage to do it before then. Not even SDI can save them from the blunt beating.
The Flying Battery:
The Flying Battery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTnly7rFOfw
A neat little trick that any character who can walljump do on Frigate's second transformation.
What makes me give this little technique it's name is probably because Sonic is best capable of making this work. It isn't Sonic-specific, but anyway, if you take a look at the video, you'll see that there are two specific spots below the stage from which you can constantly walljump from one side to the other. A recovery/stalling technique if you would.
As with all batteries, they eventually run out of juice. This technique cannot be done forever, being that with every wall-jump performed, the height gained becomes less and less. Now because the stage stops Sonic from going up any higher than given, what you need to worry about is how long and how low you can go before you have to land back on the stage or plummet downwards. The practical walljump limit is Twenty. I have managed to get more, but by then I had to mash/time my walljumps. Also if you're not fast enough, you'll sink too low to reach the "wall" part and by then something has to happen.
Sonic can access the wall-jumping parts easy, being that he has an excellent recovery, and Homing Attack provides for more leeway. Do note however that this technique does not keep Sonic from being invulnerable. Characters with flexible projectiles like Ness or Snake can still very well reach him and hit him out. Other characters like Meta Knight or Pit can simply go up to Sonic and swat him, and still have enough leeway to make it back to the stage themselves. Be especially careful when you find that you've reached the walljump limit and you're trying to make it back to the ledge. There are a lot of ways to make it safer, for one, Homing Attack. Second, you can walljump off the wall that has the ledge. Spring also goes a ways up but if you get cypher-gimped that's no good.
If you find yourself stuck and unable to get back to the ledge while you're Homing Attack Stalling, be sure to use B-Reversing. You won't have your second jump however, so make sure you don't mess that up and accidentally Spindash to your doom.
I'm not sure if it's possible to do the Flying Battery from one side to the other along with Homing Attack stalling. I tried but as you will see I failed to do so. It may not be at all possible, or perhaps because the other Sonic was there it was throwing off the Homing Attack's lock-on and sending me back to the last side.
Treadmill-canceled Up-Smash (into) Back-Air (TCUSBA):
TCUSBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZfz3CIrAQQ
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
As for what this is, when you commit to a ground attack on the treadmill on the electric part of Pokemon Stadium II, you will be relieved of any sort of lag due to being pushed off from the ground into the air. The essentially makes things such as Forward smash lagless and leads into some pretty wicked combos that normally wouldn't be possible.
"Super Sonic Stadiums:"
Super Sonic Stadiums
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lumj9kYOYhc
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
In short, There's some pretty crazy stuff you can do on Pokemon Stadium I and II...
The Physics of Yoshi's Isle: Melee:
Run-cancel into Spin Charge:Spindash cancel utilt/usmash are just easy buffers. When sonic hits that slope right, you can do whatever you want. He is just sliding in a neutral position.
YI:M has been my favorite stage for a while, so I made a vid after the new ruleset came out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_7oKz1aws8
Sonic is SO fast on this stage, spindash becomes almost as versatile as running due to being able to cancel it all over the stage. He also has iSDR on the pipes.
But, yea people probably won't take this stage seriously.
Platform-Canceling:Kind of random, but an overlooked tidbit that I just confirmed for myself today:
You can down-b out of fulldash
..lol
Like, the screech stop animation has some IASA frames for say, jab, but you cancancelbypass the screechstop at by doing a down-B during fulldash.
So basically,
instead of
Run > screechstop > downB ...
you can do
Run > downB ...
It isn't that there's IASA during screechstop moreso than a "Run state can turn into down-B"
This also means that you can, for example, run, singlecharge down-B and release, and it's pretty similar to dash attack, except with more commitment and comboability.
Implications:
- alternative to dash attack
- pressure game tool: you don't have to commit to SC until right before you have to hit with it - you can run to your desired spot then downB. It's similar to doing the same with side-B except minus the hop, so you lose the invincibility frames but get faster reach from out of range.
Also, it's as close as Sonic can get in Brawl to running and hitting down to roll XD
Needs more testing done, or needs a dedicated guide/write-up!So thanks to the Falcon boards, I am messing around with an old, overlooked Brawl AT known as platform cancelling.
Basically, if you're holding down as you're rising through a moving platform and release at the right time, you'll immediately land on it. No fall time.
Further more, if you buffer a movement, you'll have a better chance of clinging to the platform and perform it (ex: neutral air will become a jab). testing edit: If you use an action to land, you can hold down the whole time and just worry about timing the action correctly!
So I was messing around on SV doing this with Sonic (the pure, hold/release [down] method) and it was meh - not so consistent. However, airdodging also counts as an action that helped him cling to the platform and it buffers shield - so I'm using this to aid my terrible reflex and get this thing down.
However, all this is pretty showy andI'm not very consistent.
This is all leading up to where I am right now, where I'm currently trying to see if you can spring > platform cancel.
List of possible moves (Tried and Tested)
Assume that I'm using airdodge to cling onto the platform and not uber-reflex [release down]. However, I have managed to pull them all off at least once without any aid, so all of these are possible regardless of the input method you use to do them:
FH > platform cancel
Footstool Jump > platform cancel
Ledge jump (hanging > hit jump) > platform cancel
VSDJ/SDJ > platform cancel
DJ > platform cancel
Side-B > DJ > platform cancel
SPINSHOT > platform cancel LOL
Drop down > DJ > platform cancel
Drop down > side-B > DJ > platform cancel
Jump through platform > fall through platform > DJ > platform cancel
FH/DJ/Ledge jump > Platform Cancel with down B*
* is special because it's easy, considering how (if you're planning to PC with an action, it'll work as long as you're holding [down]. How convenient ^^;
At some point, they get redundant (I mean hey, they're almost all DJ so far lol), but this shows the range of movements you can do, so you can get a better range of possibilities.
I wish I had better reflexes lol.
SDRUT:
SpinDash Roll Uber-Turnaround.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mv2f4KQug
Dashing Drop Down:
Dashing Drop Down (DDD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETKnWyQzFvQ
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
Aerial Spin Charge Platform Drop Through:A bit of help on platforms.
Double post, I don't quite understand the airdodge cancel >B. I don't see the shield come up and I don't see a drop down animation. I also am 100% certain I only pressed shield once so it can't be a shield drop down airdodge (which would require Z twice). So >B can pull you off of platforms after you shield cancel it. This might mean you can reverse over B and drop off of platforms facing backwards. Perhaps low edgeguarding with back air's disjoint.
ASC-PDT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwPdEq9LY3E&feature=channel
Credit goes to Tesh for the video.
Some discussion of this technique:
Also this deserves some special attention I think. Could be a useful way to approach people hiding under platforms?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwPdEq9LY3E&feature=channel
I don't even know how you're doing that lol.
Care to explain for those who are too slow like me?
I read somewhere (may have been the Yoshi boards) that you can drop through platforms directly from your shield. Its just a shieldcancel then a platform drop. But when I slowed it down, I never actually saw his shield come up.
I've managed to do it a few times. (practiced on the platform of YI.) You buffer a ledgedrop before you land with your shield.
So its a buffer before you hit the ground huh? Definitely going to experiment with this.
If you figure out a good way of doing that, let me know. If you notice in the video, I always double jump then ASC. I was having alot of trouble timing it right with my double jump.
I actually didn't move my control stick to do the platform drop down. I just pressed a smash to buffer an aerial as I hit the platform. When I was too early, I was buffering a double jump aerial. When I was too late I would always spotdodge or roll (and it was much easier to do right with Up Air).
The timing is a little difficult but with practice can be learned and perfected. The height from the buffer in which you have to input the buffer looks to be about at Sonic's standing height, maybe a little lower than that like where his eyes are or something.
One problem I was encountering after a successful drop was doing an aerial w/o fastfalling on accident. Just tap down once for the buffer then release the control stick and if done right, you can do any aerial without being cut short by the land lag. With the exception of fair and dair.
Easiest way for me to do it is as soon as you release the ASC, hold shield. Then it's all in timing and placement.
Yea I was having trouble fast falling as well, I still have yet to successfully go through the entire ASC drop down uair autocancel. And the hitbox on back air doesn't even come out if you fast fall on the battlefield platforms.
Yeah, but if you manage to not fastfall when you bair, it comes out beautifully like a normal SH bair
This is the thread from the yoshi boards. Apparently the window for a drop down oos is small and the input must be somewhat "gentle". http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279572
I applied the "gentle" input and I've gotten the timing down to being able to do it nearly every time now.
I even practiced it on the platform on SV and tried other mixups using the platform drop.
If only I could record so I could make a vid of this. Nevertheless, it would be nice if we could get some clarifications on the placement and the number of frames you have to do it by. Sadly, I lack the resources to get exact calculations on that plus I'm just plan bad at it XP.
Yeah, although I don't see it being as useful as the BF platforms or the YI platform, there may be some tricks that can develop with at least the mobility of SV's platform.
OMG that move is lookin cute as fk. No lie.
also, you guys didnt even notice... if youre landing and dropping through a platform, that means instead of just aerialing, you get your double jump back. Which is HUGE.
I think BF just became a sonic counterpick.
At the end of the video, you can see I double jump ASC-spinshot. It looks cool, but you get your double jump back the moment you land. I don't see much of a reason you drop down (thus losing your first jump) then double jump. Unless you are positioning yourself to shield poke someone on the platform.
You can ASC, drop down, spinshot, platform cancel and then attack from the other side of the platform. Sort of like a way to cross-up by going under. I don't think I have the tech skill to manage that, but I'd love to have it on video.
If you want to land a double hit ASC then drop down, you have to slide the control stick from down to forward then gently back down. But for a single hit, if you knock them off the platform, you may be able to beat them to the ground and jablock. Perhaps even a good way to dair semi spike people from on stage (ASC drop down-dair as they fall off the platform).
I doubt it. Sonic's double jump doesn't seem to be that high.
Edit: This platform dropping from an ASC business is murdering my palms. I've been struggling to pull it off, but I've gotten it here and there.
I'll try the c-stick method Tesh mentioned, but I've been doing what Rave's been doing. I just buffer a down input right before I land, and it works.
It's just tough to learn the timing for it.
Yeah, I can land it almost every time now in training mode. But in the heat of a match I can't ever seem to find the correct moment or timing to pull it off.
I may try it in a match at my tourney tomorrow, or at least practice using it in a match.
Also im going to hit up Susa because i do think theres a way to cancel the ledge drop as well essentially making a perfect cancel. I think i just did it once let me try to recreate it. Susa used to do this crap all day.
Miss that guy.
EDIT: Japan does it again.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ar2M4iiB-g
When you get this down guys, try this. ASC PDT > platform cancel.
and for lolz platform cancel> instant platform drop> platform cancel> instant platform drop> etc. it looks freakin tyte.
*these are for moving platforms
It's easy Speed. I've gotten the SpinDash > Cancel & Platform drop down.
It's just a matter of sensitivity to the analog stick.
Also, platform cancels are pretty cool.
ASC PDT? Did I miss an acronym meeting, or something?
What Espy said. Although I'm still having difficulties when it comes to consistently doing it during a match. If I try to force myself to use it, I end up dropping into some nasty punishment. :l