We need Wavedashing, we must take action to assure it

[Hawk Eye]

wow..i think i just read about 200 of these posts trying to catch up on what everyones opinons are on the matter. i actually havent posted anything since september of last year..but this feels like the kind of topic to come back on.

so many people are complaining about how radically different brawl is gonna be when compared to melee. but does anyone remember when melee first came out, what the first week or two was like. "why do my grab and throws suck".."wtf did they do to pikachu and kirby".."why isnt my opponent dying at 70%". I personally remember playing melee for a couple a weeks and saying this game sucks, im just gonna play smash 64. it didnt take long at all for me to adjust to melee and enjoy it for what it really is.

so many people are complaining about what they're taking away. so instead of trying to understand a change like this or how it'd improve the game, so many people are complaining about it and immediately jumping to saying "they're just dumbing the game down for the scrubs".

what ive heard and read the most was without WD and L canceling (more specifically WD), the competitiveness is going to be gone. the way i look at it is its gonna be harder for the great people to be great. without WD it becomes harder to seperate yourself from the pack thus creating a stronger drive to be the best.

now i ask you fellow smashers "eveing the playing field and making it harder to be the best"..isnt this the definition of competitiveness?

without WD its going to be harder to be the best. i dare any skeptics here to say outright..making a game harder to be the best at makes it less competitive.

i for one am not gonna complain about WD because it was in MELEE. many people are forgetting that Brawl is its own game and wont be Melee 2.0 (i forgot who originally said this but props for the good analysis). i wont say WD didnt add depth to the game, of course adding a different form of movement to a game will add depth. however, there is just as likely a chance that Brawl will have techs all its own. so just like melee had WD, Brawl will have..well..i guess we'll have to wait and see

 

[slikvik]

Seriously slikvik this has been argued alot of times already... search for it on the brawl boards...

Basically, ppl agreed that L-canceling added technical depth to the game however it doesn't add strategical depth to it. So keeping L-cancels or not are a matter of what skills you want to prioritize in your game... strategy or tech.

true we did discuss this, i disagreed with you but respected your opinion on it...but why do want me to search the brawl boards. are you trying to torture me?

 

[BigRick]

no, just use the search feature

 

[ohpistachios]

i have to agree that there doesnt seem to be a sensible reason to take wavedashing out.

it definitely does make the game deeper, and more importantly, wavedashing is FUN.

 

[Formless]

i have to agree that there doesnt seem to be a sensible reason to take wavedashing out.

it definitely does make the game deeper, and more importantly, wavedashing is FUN.

I think it's evident that wavedashing was not a technique that was specifically put there by the developers, but discovered by the SSBM community.

 

[Mama]

i have to agree that there doesnt seem to be a sensible reason to take wavedashing out.

it definitely does make the game deeper, and more importantly, wavedashing is FUN.

It makes Melee deeper yes. But Brawl is not Melee. I agree that its fun and theres no reason to target it specifically but whos to say they were thinking of removing it when they changed the dodge mechanics? Brawl is running on a new engine which brings a lot of momentum based things (like the wave land-esque slide after certain aerials that have momentum) Making the dodge momentum based is most likely due to the physics engine. Wave Dashing was simply caught in the crossfire.

Brawl is not Melee. Brawl = deep

Brawl + WD = nothing since we don't even know what Brawl has to offer.

 

[Percon]

I agree very much with HawkEye.

Brawl is it's own game, will have it's own techniques, and will play differently than melee.

 

[Rash]

The wavedash is a consequence of the air-dodge. I doubt it was actually "taken out" deliberately. The momentum-dodge was a design choice for Brawl, and it just happened to remove wavedash-potential from the game. At the same time, added mechanics (like being able to attack after an M-dodge) have been added to the game as well. That's what people are talking about. One thing gone, another thing added in its place.

And this will not be the only example of such a change/replacement.

 

[alphameric]

10 chars...

 

[-West Coast Wes-]

Lets make a petition. M2K is right to worry about this,

Of course the game may be perfect as is, but what if its not. Then everyone cries because nobody took the responsibility to fix it. This is one of those situations where everyone just needs to be pessimistic, because nothing bad can come out of it. like Global Warming or something.

I'm sure a petition would work, but they just wouldn't credit us for it. BUT I do think its not wise to think that wavedash is the only thing that makes the game worth it, because we don't even know what is in brawl. While we need the wavedash and L-canceling, what we really need is to just let Nintendo know that we care about the games depth on a competitive level. Part of me says that I can trust nintendo with this but I also think we should do everything we can to make sure we are noticed.

 

[BigRick]

The wavedash is a consequence of the air-dodge. I doubt it was actually "taken out" deliberately. The momentum-dodge was a design choice for Brawl, and it just happened to remove wavedash-potential from the game. At the same time, added mechanics (like being able to attack after an M-dodge) have been added to the game as well. That's what people are talking about. One thing gone, another thing added in its place.

And this will not be the only example of such a change/replacement.

Can I kiss you?

 

[brawlpro]

be my guest.

 

[PyrasTerran]

I don't see why this pleases you.

And I don't see why this displeases you.

The game will still have tiers. It's a fighting game. It's inevitable.

I doubt they will be as massive in gaps as they are in Melee. Consider that heavy characters are no longer low-tier fodder thanks to now being able to unleash attacks without flinching from a jab of a weaker character. Also notice the improvements made to Link, from an edge-homing hookshot to a charge-able spin slash.

Whether or not Tiers will be around, Sakurai is doing his best to balance the characters out as much as possible, which means we'll be seeing a MUCH bigger variety of fighters, instead of just a big group of Fox/Falco/Shiek/Marth fighters.

There will always be some sort of trick that more dedicated players will take the time to learn. Just because casual players don't make use of these techniques does not mean they should be removed.

It's not a trick more than it's a glitch. Wavedashing and such are no different from the Iceclimber frozen grab glitch, really, only difference is that wavedashing doesn't disrupt competition in an unfair way, per say.

This is like saying that you should take any combo strings that require more than 10 buttons out of street fighter because casual players will never use them since all they really do is button mash.

The problem with this, though, is:

Wavedashing =/= combo strings. Combo strings were INTENTIONALLY put there. Wavedashing is taking advantage of a loose slip in the fighting system.

I'm sorry, but I don't see wavedashing in any official Nintendo guide to playing Smash Bros., or even any player's guide you can pick up.. That tells me it's not intentionally there, and that's probably why it's so hard to use for some people. The lack of wavedashing = Sakurai tightening the controls of the game.

What's so displeasing about that?

The wavedash is a consequence of the air-dodge. I doubt it was actually "taken out" deliberately. The momentum-dodge was a design choice for Brawl, and it just happened to remove wavedash-potential from the game. At the same time, added mechanics (like being able to attack after an M-dodge) have been added to the game as well. That's what people are talking about. One thing gone, another thing added in its place.

And this will not be the only example of such a change/replacement.

Very well put. There are so many new factors put into the game, including the footstool jump, strategies will no longer have to rely so heavily on how well you can wavedash or L-cancel.

While we need the wavedash and L-canceling

NO...

No one NEEDS wavedashing and L-cancelling, especially if they're not in Brawl.

People will rely on NEW techniques and strategies.

It's not like the good Smashers will suddenly suck if wavedashing and L-cancelling are taken out. You work around your limits and improve your skills to compensate. It's as simple as that.

 

[GaryCXJk]

If you really rely on wavedashing to win a match, you are a definite scrub.

 

[brawlpro]

If you really rely on advanced techs to win a match, you are a definite scrub.

Spoiler

SYKE!

 

[Wiseguy]

Lets make a petition. M2K is right to worry about this,

Of course the game may be perfect as is, but what if its not. Then everyone cries because nobody took the responsibility to fix it. This is one of those situations where everyone just needs to be pessimistic, because nothing bad can come out of it. like Global Warming or something.

I'm sure a petition would work, but they just wouldn't credit us for it. BUT I do think its not wise to think that wavedash is the only thing that makes the game worth it, because we don't even know what is in brawl. While we need the wavedash and L-canceling, what we really need is to just let Nintendo know that we care about the games depth on a competitive level. Part of me says that I can trust nintendo with this but I also think we should do everything we can to make sure we are noticed.

Or maybe we should trust Sakurai to make Brawl the best game possible. From what I hear, he knows a thing or two about how to make a Smash Bros game.

If the Brawl team decided that removing directional air dodging (and by association, wave dashing) makes the game better, I'm enclined to trust them.

 

[PyrasTerran]

Listen to Wiseguy. Predictions aside he knows what he's talking about :D

Besides, now, air-dodging won't leave you an immobile lump in the air. I know there are many people who have accidentally air-dodged the wrong way at an edge and find themselves falling to their doom because of it.

And being able to move(and attack?) after air-dodging allows for a new strategy: airdodge > counterattack.

 

[-West Coast Wes-]

Yeh I understand. As long as the game has its own stuff it will be awesome.
And since the engine has so much stuff to it it has to leave in many strange things just like melee did. It would be nice to have something fresh anyway. Another melee would be too boring I suppose.

 

[Kelexo]

I've always wanted to say this:

Wavedashing was never intentional. Wanna know why?

Because there isn't a single stupidass person in this world who thought "Hey guys, lets make a technique that requires you to randomly slam buttons, pressing jump and then air-dodging diagonally into the ground. It'll make you slide slightly, but can be used several times to slide across levels and will be used for minor situational advantage. Then, lets not tell anyone about it."

Yeeeeeeeah.

 

[brawlpro]

but it would not be another melee if wavedashing was in. New characters, stages, music, statistics for characters, more fawkin modez

btw: your Wes?!?!?!

 

[njr1489]

Lets just do what everyone else does elsewhere. Something gets removed, we play for hours on end and find new ways to play. I have to say wavedashing with luigi was fun though.

 

[brawlpro]

waveshining was fun too

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

A thing to consider is that Sakurai has had over a year in development to decide whether wavedashing was a glitch or something he wanted to keep in its current form. For all intents, it seems like he decided the latter. Who are we, then, to argue with that? We must take the game at face value.

Gimpyfish at least seems to be having a ball with it. I for one am a bit upset that Yoshi has lost DJC, however its not the end of the world, and may actually help him in some way that I cant fathom at the moment, we'll just have to see.

The only people who love the game enough to do that.

 

[DSB]

I don't care that much about WDing really... Seems like Brawl is more like SSB64 but with more options and SSB64 is pretty crazy without WDing. The combos on 64 are sick.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

We need this back, we need to all write to Nintendo/Sakurai and tell him that what he's doing is a BIG mistake that needs to be fixed.

No, we really don't. This is patently silly, and I'm glad Sakurai is willing to try to grow and evolve the basic Smash design. You can argue that removing wavedashing is a 'devolving' of it, but I'd in turn respond: "Have you really thought it through? Does the absence of wavedashing make other parts of the physics engine more prominent?"

Removing wavedashing is not a mistake. It is trying something new. It is seeing what happens to the basic game philosophy of Smash when you emphasize other features. I'd even argue that wavedashing was never part of the game's design goal.

Let me put it a little more bluntly: Sakurai's job is game designer. He designs the game, he puts conscious thought into what happens when he does X or Y. I'm absolutely, completely certain he has thought about the ramifications of the decision to remove wavedashing, and I'm also certain he believes it's in the best interest of the game's mass appeal.

Regardless of its impact on play in Melee, wavedashing is aesthetically unpleasing, and it is counterintuitive. Games should be intuitive, the choices the player makes should feel natural to him. Wavedashing is not intuitive, it is an acquired taste.

This thread has actually convinced me to take the opposite approach. Rather than writing a letter to Nintendo criticizing wavedashing's removal, I'll send one praising them for being willing to experiment and see what happens.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

We dont need wavedashing.

Just because people are USED to do WD in MELEE they want it back.

You know bringing back WD would bring lots of unbalance.

Also this isnt Melee, we're supposed to get a new game, we're supposed to play without WD because its not really a part of what Sakurai wanted.

If you are trully proffesional smasher. You should be able to handle playing without WD.

So I say NO to WD...

Because of course, you know what a professional smasher should be like. Especially as compared to, I don't know, the best player on this planet.

 

[Tony_]

QFT, it's as if most SWF members don't even know other fighting games.

Agreed and SWF members should search out Evo videos for SF matches on Youtube, specifically Daiga matches.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

does anyone wonder why wavedashing was taken out, what good does it bring?

and im pretty sure they changed the airdodge in order to remove wding and not that it just happened to work out that way


to: Izaw
How does wding make the game unbalanced when every character can do it.. what shud every advanced technique in any game be removed because it gives someone who uses it an advantage...?

 

[nublet06]

when mew2king was playing mango with marth at super champ combo, i dont think he ever even dashed let alone wavedashed. he jumped in place with fair/nair and then landed with a quick neutral slash or tilt to prevent mango from approaching.

so why is he complaining so much LOL

 

[Dizzynin]

I don't know why I spent about half-an-hour reading through this entire thread... but I did.

Here are my thoughts:
WD'ing is removed = not a huge loss--yes, it provided depth, but there will be ways of making up for the things it did
L-cancelling = assuming that aerials are "auto lag-cancelled" now, then again, not a problem (and even makes things slightly more convenient--that's one less button we have to worry about)

I'm hoping that Sakurai and co. either just aren't aware of ATs, or unintentionally programmed stuff like wavedashing out (like, they only intended to modify how air-dodges worked)--if they actually intended to pull the plug on wavedashing, then we have a problem because we know what they're trying to do and where the game's gonna head. Pros don't need ATs to win--all they want for the game is depth. It should be the common fear of any pro smasher (who have grown with the game and spent hours with it and fell in love with the depth of Smash) that Sakurai is trying to "dumb down" the game and make it scrub-friendly, so that even your average 60-year old grandma can beat you at it. No matter what happens, Brawl will be a blast to play... but a big part of the fun is competition. No one can argue with that. The sad thing is, I think I once read somewhere that Sakurai disliked the idea of Smash being a competitive game... why oh why...

Thankfully, there's the edge hug and ink drop that have just been discovered... my only fear is that they will remove any and all ATs we discover now by the time the game is released. That would be just harsh on the part of the developers...

 

[peachori]

m2k is adamant for the inclusion of wd as a competitive tool that adds depth. to assert that competitive tools should be intuitive is ridiculous. although it may be warranted in some lets-all-love-each-other-and-be-equal sense, it simply is impractical when there is a competitive scene with monetary rewards. it is the equivalent of saying basketball players shouldnt use plyometrics, because it isnt natural for 6 foot people to be able to dunk on a 10 foot rim. unfortunately for some, brawl is not designed for the competitive gamer first, and thus we have momentum dodging. deal with it.

i dont understand why people are so adamant about the inclusion of wavedash when brawl, by almost all accounts, is not melee. sure, wavedash was great in melee. but who's to even say that it would be useful in brawl, when all the characters are revealed and an actual metagame has come forth? we likely look back and determine that wavedashing isnt nearly as useful as some other technique we unearth in brawl.

ultimately we competitive smashers need to accept that brawl, like melee, was not designed for us. the target is the masses, its US who make it into a competitive fighter. and i have faith that, again, we will make brawl into a competitive fighter.

i think the real disappointing issue is that brawl is slower in every aspect of the game, and those of us who loved the speed of melee may be out of luck.

 

[Shmooguy]

NO JOHNs .

 

[Ryuker]

I agree whe should take action. I've met different game designers and sadly they are good at designing games but always lack at competitive games. With smash it's just the same they don't see beyond it. I already got concerned when they announced they wanted it to be more arial based. I though huh we already play like 80 % of the time in the air :S. Now I realize after having experienced numerous casual n00bs play that they indeed play very ground based with smashes and such and special attack spamming... . If the designers can't think deep enough into the game then they just don't see the importance of certain techniques. I think they just don't know. They are trying their hardest creating the game but I think they are making a HUGE mistake. This will definetly impact the depth in this game.
To all the people saying the designers want the game to be more mindgame based stfu... they probably haven't even reached such a level. They just play the game casually.

Another point I see people bring up is they say this game will have all kinds of new techniques. That may be true but we know smash by now. There is only so much you can change about it and if you go to far you take away it's strongh point. This is why it is a different situation from ssb64. Sbb64 wasn't balanced at all. Melee was a lot deeper. Now we see possibilities removed that actually created more depth. This game should be adding depth not removing. We alreadt get evidence of this that if offence isn't rewarded as much the game will be a waiting game all the time. If you char jump frigging high landing on a platform fast will be a lot harder and will lose it's uses.

It's stuff like this that may seem fun from a design point of view but I think it's very important we inform them about the impact the competitiveness takes from this. It might just be they didn't realise it. The designers are working so hard on this and definetly want to make this awesome. If we can warn them about changes it can actually become awesome and we might actually be able to convince them. It would be a shame too see brawl be succesfull but not continue in the tournament circuit cause it is too shallow.

 

[Mama]

does anyone wonder why wavedashing was taken out, what good does it bring?

and im pretty sure they changed the airdodge in order to remove wding and not that it just happened to work out that way


to: Izaw
How does wding make the game unbalanced when every character can do it.. what shud every advanced technique in any game be removed because it gives someone who uses it an advantage...?

Simply changing something like air dodging to eliminate wave dashing doesn't make sense. As I said before its more likely that the air dodge was changed and as a result wavedashing is now gone or just changed.

 

[maxpower1227]

I'm hoping that Sakurai and co. either just aren't aware of ATs, or unintentionally programmed stuff like wavedashing out (like, they only intended to modify how air-dodges worked)--if they actually intended to pull the plug on wavedashing, then we have a problem because we know what they're trying to do and where the game's gonna head. Pros don't need ATs to win--all they want for the game is depth. It should be the common fear of any pro smasher (who have grown with the game and spent hours with it and fell in love with the depth of Smash) that Sakurai is trying to "dumb down" the game and make it scrub-friendly, so that even your average 60-year old grandma can beat you at it. No matter what happens, Brawl will be a blast to play... but a big part of the fun is competition. No one can argue with that. The sad thing is, I think I once read somewhere that Sakurai disliked the idea of Smash being a competitive game... why oh why...

I'm pretty sure they didn't intentionally remove wavedashing per se. As I said in another thread, I think they meant mainly to fix the air dodge (you can no longer get artificial momentum in midair by dodging; now you simply twist your body in midair but retain your momentum). If they intended to remove wavedashing specifically, they would have kept the directional airdodge, but fixed its behavior when you hit the ground. As it stands now the removal of wavedashing is just a side effect of them fixing the air dodge.

Frankly, I applaud this move. They made the air dodge more realistic in two ways: you can't artificially change your momentum, and you're no longer required to fall helplessly to the ground after performing it. I consider both of those to be improvements.

For those upset about wavedashing being gone: get over it. The game will be fine, and it will have an appropriate level of depth. People who argue in favor of WD seem to be saying that they want depth for the sake of depth. Depth or not, it's an unnatural movement that just makes the game seem silly, and there will still be enough depth without it.

I should stop posting on the subject now. I'm far more concerned with all of the downright AMAZING aspects of this game. People need to get over their obsession with one technique and pay attention to all the epic greatness and attention to detail that is being put into this game.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

This thread is so funny. Such a great read.

 

[Sandwich]

Didn't SSB64 have no wavedashing?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Simply changing something like air dodging to eliminate wave dashing doesn't make sense. As I said before its more likely that the air dodge was changed and as a result wavedashing is now gone or just changed.

how doesn't it make sense. changing air dodging is the most convenient way to eliminate it with out making the physics too weird. Why woul dthey randomly decide to change air dodging anyway, there was no controversy over that whereas there was alot of controversy over wavedashing. So it makes more sense for that to be the focus.

and at maxx power i dont think they care too much about making the game real... if they did they wud remove many other thing such as double jumping..

 

[Eight Sage]

we need to all write to Nintendo/Sakurai and tell him that what he's doing is a BIG mistake that needs to be fixed.

LMAO!!! I laughed so loud when I read this...

[Sarcasm]Yeah Sakurai, you're wrong! even though there is a development team of Melee fans, You're doing this wrong![/Sarcasm]

Wavedashing = Bug ---> Now it's fixed. You can't enjoy something that wasn't planned and ruin the strategy and feel of the game.

 

[Nintendude]

LMAO!!! I laughed so loud when I read this...

[Sarcasm]Yeah Sakurai, you're wrong! even though there is a development team of Melee fans, You're doing this wrong![/Sarcasm]

Wavedashing = Bug ---> Now it's fixed. You can't enjoy something that wasn't planned and ruin the strategy and feel of the game.

Why should it matter if something is a bug or not if it added a lot to the game?