We may all disagree with Sakurai's decision to move away from Melee's gameplay but...

[Snakeyes]

When they make another smash, it will be based on brawl. Brawl not only sold better than melee

You can't really compare the two sales figures directly. If we consider the fact that the Wii has sold nearly 4 times the amount Gamecube did, Melee is actually a more successful game based on the attach rate. 1 GC owner out of 3 owns Melee versus about 1 out of 9 Wii owners for Brawl. Of course the game will sell more if the platform it's on is more successful.

Why would Nintendo risk losing millions of dollars to cater to a group that barely registers as a blip on their financial radar?

How would they lose money?

 

[Summonedfist]

or an alternative, future smash could be like mvc3 and include a "simplified mode" while keeping the competitive aspect/idea of the game for "normal/standard", for example.

sadly enough, mvc2 --> mvc3 already had a super simplified button input system... so idk how that works out for the community

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

dang, I'm a big EB fan, and that certainly sounds a crime, with nintendo's reply finally (i've been aware of the mother 3 port and starmen project and such for along time now).

that said...

i still think we have a chance. especially if we can challenge them on their own terms i.e. about their own gaming philosophy in relation to what really matters (what makes a game 'fun'), and their decision and actions to design brawl the way they did, and such.

 

[Johnknight1]

I blame Sakurai's staff for Brawl's shortcomings, not Sakurai. Sakurai had a new staff consisting of three companies, many of whom had never been involved in making a fighting game.

Also, Mother 1-3 needs to be on the 3DS, Wii, DS, and Wii U VC. I love those games...

 

[DerfMidWest]

And make Pichu damage himself less, maybe.

his moves only deal like 1 or 2% to him though (except stupid fair...)

 

[Snakeyes]

As for the next Super Smash Bros being more competitive . . . maybe Nintendo will respond to the criticism in a way that improves competitive play. If they really want to make the game appealing to both competitive and non-competitive play, they should make the options menu more complex, adding sections for hitstun percentage, shield absorbtion rate and gravity under the same area as knockback, while the default settings are more welcoming to new players. All they would need to do is to make it possible to save the settings to a Wiimote/community/WiiUPad/downloadable file and the fanbase could then decide on prefered settings without the developers needing to patch the game.

Oh God no. You're entitled to your opinion, but I feel that the last thing we need is more customization options to further divide players. Melee was extremely accessible to everyone out of the box, with its default settings. In four years of playing casually with items on, I've never heard anyone complain about the game being difficult to get into.

What we need is a game that will bring both sides together with a more natural progression from casual to competitive. Take Melee, slow it down a tiny bit and remove questionable stuff like being helpless after an airdodge. With these two steps, we've already eliminated the two main complaints casual players had about the game.

Most importantly, get rid of unnecessary execution barriers like L-canceling. Two of the most fun aspects of competitive Smash is learning to string your attacks together in creative ways and pressuring your opponent. Getting to that stage should be easier for newcomers so they can start enjoying the more serious side of the game with the rest of us quicker.

 

[ShroudedOne]

If you're suggesting that we make aerials easier to cancel, then I highly disagree. Casuals that I've talked to have no problem with the way Melee is no (save some fall speeds and airdoding, I guess), and they certainly don't care about L cancelling. This lowers the entry barrier for competitive Melee (which really should be high, because this game takes a LOT of dedication on the competitive level), and that is not a good thing. We shouldn't remove what makes the game fun for competitive players in our efforts to make it more accessible.

IMO, all we'd need to do would be to change Melee physics (tone them down a bit), I guess give more airdodges (with a limit on how many times you can directional airdodge)...that's all I can think of right now, actually.

 

[Anth0ny]

If you're suggesting that we make aerials easier to cancel, then I highly disagree. Casuals that I've talked to have no problem with the way Melee is no (save some fall speeds and airdoding, I guess), and they certainly don't care about L cancelling. This lowers the entry barrier for competitive Melee (which really should be high, because this game takes a LOT of dedication on the competitive level), and that is not a good thing. We shouldn't remove what makes the game fun for competitive players in our efforts to make it more accessible.

IMO, all we'd need to do would be to change Melee physics (tone them down a bit), I guess give more airdodges (with a limit on how many times you can directional airdodge)...that's all I can think of right now, actually.

So... Brawl with manual L cancelling?



Getting rid of L cancelling makes it more accessible for new players, and takes nothing away from the game. Adding air dodges and changing the physics does.

 

[Beat!]

You can mess with your opponents L-cancel timings a little by alternating the size of your shield, potentially getting a grab. I think it would take awaya a little and that it should stay in the game...

 

[Life]

If you're going to keep l-canceling, there should be some sort of penalty attached so it's a decision you have to make, not something you do automatically. Maybe l-canceling an aerial stales it more or something.

 

[Beat!]

A better "penalty", in that case, would in my opinion be to add more endlag than usual to an aerial if you try to L-cancel and miss.

 

[Massive]

How would they lose money?

It's very easy to make a game substantially less fun to a casual player by making it more competitive. Starcraft II has units that are only accessible in single player mode because they would off-balance multiplayer. Many Street Fighter and King of Fighters games neuter their boss characters so they can be played competitively.

Many people complained that melee was too "touchy" for them to enjoy because the controls were excessively responsive. Some of the only bad reviews of the game were casuals complaining about how fast the gameplay/controls are by comparison to other, easier games. If the game was made to appeal directly to hardcore gamers only, they could easily lose large sums of money by making the game less appealing to casual players.

It's also completely acceptable to compare sales numbers; from a marketing standpoint Nintendo could care less if the game is competitive, it has little effect on their bottom line. They do not see competitive gaming as worth any money because it is not (not for their games anyway, the smash scene is far too small to matter financially to them). Competitive gaming in the US is still in its infancy, and aftermarket tournaments don't net Nintendo jack **** besides the occasional resale of a copy when yours breaks.

Nintendo will care about gaming competitions when they start getting paid a cut of them or are advertising for them, they have never shown any interest in doing either, (since the Wizard came out, lol) why would they start now? Especially when almost all of their existing ventures are PRINTING MONEY.

 

[iffy525]

Project M is not the answer. It's great that so many people are putting effort into it, and it's a great idea, but in reality it is just not viable for tournament play. The game needs to be ready out of the box, not requiring hacks.

 

[Summonedfist]

^^ you only really need a memory stick and a hacked wii (which most are nowadays anyways)

once it reaches a stable version i could see it being semi viable

 

[ShroudedOne]

So... Brawl with manual L cancelling?



Getting rid of L cancelling makes it more accessible for new players, and takes nothing away from the game. Adding air dodges and changing the physics does.

No. Brawl physics are bad.

I honestly don't see why competitive play should be more accessible. It is COMPETITIVE. That means that it is DIFFICULT. Removing L-cancelling takes away that extra determining factor of skill. If you are going to remove that, you're either going to make aerials too safe (reduce the lag on all of them to compensate for no manual L cancel) or too unsafe (leave them as they are, which cripples shield pressure).

And I'm sure no one here wants to get into a debate about exactly how much lag we should leave on aerials.

 

[Kal]

ShroudedOne, whether you personally find L-Canceling to be a valuable skill to test is up to you, but it's a little absurd to suggest that the removal of it will make aerials too safe or too unsafe. The removal of L-Canceling in Melee done by reducing the lag of aerials across-the-board by half would have almost no impact on the safety of aerials, because L-Canceling is a skill that is quite accessible and consistently done by the vast majority of competitive players.

For this reason, I find it an unnecessary technical skill. I acknowledge that it's difficult to draw the line between unnecessary technical skill and necessary technical skill (e.g. if we acknowledge that L-Canceling is unnecessary, what about short hopping? What about having combos finished automatically after a successful approach?), but I personally think the game would be just as good, only more accessible, were L-Canceling made unnecessary.

Of course, if you think testing a player's ability to successfully press L/R/Z at the correct times is a worthwhile skill, you would view the the loss of L-Canceling to outweigh the gains in accessibility. I don't view this particular skill as valuable, but I understand that such an opinion is arbitrary and subjective. Everyone has their opinion on technical barriers and what is worthwhile, so I'm not at all trying to say that L-Canceling "should" be removed.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The removal of L-Canceling in Melee done by reducing the lag of aerials across-the-board by half would have almost no impact on the safety of aerials, because L-Canceling is a skill that is quite accessible and consistently done by the vast majority of competitive players.

For this reason, I find it an unnecessary technical skill.

Explain to me why, please. And without L canceling, how are our aerials cancelled? How much lag will Link's down aerial have, if we remove L cancelling? Do we just make them all lag free, so that you need less skill when approaching?

Casual players don't care about advanced techniques. Those who are competitive will either learn them, or not. That is there decision. Removing L cancelling isn't going to do anything to add to the game, it'll only make it easier for those who don't want to work as hard to do well (why shouldn't you work hard for success?). Look at Brawl.

 

[Sixonesix]

No. Brawl physics are bad.

I honestly don't see why competitive play should be more accessible. It is COMPETITIVE. That means that it is DIFFICULT. Removing L-cancelling takes away that extra determining factor of skill. If you are going to remove that, you're either going to make aerials too safe (reduce the lag on all of them to compensate for no manual L cancel) or too unsafe (leave them as they are, which cripples shield pressure).

And I'm sure no one here wants to get into a debate about exactly how much lag we should leave on aerials.

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you here. To me, a good indicator of skill is when two players have all of the same tools at their disposal, but one player uses those tools more effectively than the other. What you're describing is more akin to strength. Or to put it another way, say Melee were like a swordfight. Except most of the swords available to you were heavy and unwieldy. Now, everyone enjoys a fight between two dudes waving horsecleavers like wooden canes, but most people don't even want to try it themselves because it takes many months of weight training to even lift the swords.

imo removing L-cancelling would decrease the "strength" required to play without affecting "skill" at all (since the optimal decision in Melee is ALWAYS to L-cancel everything possible), and that's why I agree with sentiments in this thread against its requirement.

 

[Bones0]

Explain to me why, please. And without L canceling, how are our aerials cancelled? How much lag will Link's down aerial have, if we remove L cancelling? Do we just make them all lag free, so that you need less skill when approaching?

Casual players don't care about advanced techniques. Those who are competitive will either learn them, or not. That is there decision. Removing L cancelling isn't going to do anything to add to the game, it'll only make it easier for those who don't want to work as hard to do well (why shouldn't you work hard for success?). Look at Brawl.

I feel like you don't understand how L-cancelling works when you say stuff like "how much lag will Link's down aerial have?" All it does is cut lag in half, so if you just made everything automatically L-cancel, it would be the same thing . Good players don't base decisions off of the anticipation of them or their opponent missing an L-cancel. I believe L-cancelling does add a bit of depth to the game (compensating for shields and hitlag, forcing you to commit to an option mentally), but overall, Melee would be MUCH more accessible without L-cancelling, and would only lose a very small amount of depth. I know personally that I'm at a point where L-cancelling is no longer a concern of mine because I rarely miss them. If L-cancelling were removed, I wouldn't play any differently.

Your second paragraph pretty much explains how all L-cancelling really does is make the game harder to get into. I think way too many people place value on tech skill, despite how meaningless it is. Sometimes when something is really hard to perform it makes it balanced because you can't just spam it. Multishining is a good example of something that would be pretty dumb if it was easy (like if you only had to hold B and you would repeatedly shine). However, with the added difficulty it becomes much more balanced and still maintains a large amount of skill to use it.

Hopefully someone can hack Melee to remove L-cancels just to show people what it's like. Veterans wouldn't really care either way (I would probably still L-cancel out of habit LOL), but at least now new players don't have to feel handicapped just because they need to learn a nearly pointless habit. They'll still be getting destroyed, but at least it will feel like they are losing because the other player is smarter, not because they are more adept at pushing a button that makes everything in the game faster.

 

[Varist]

at first I agreed that L-canceling was a good competitive thing to have.

Then I read

Hopefully someone can hack Melee to remove L-cancels just to show people what it's like. Veterans wouldn't really care either way (I would probably still L-cancel out of habit LOL), but at least now new players don't have to feel handicapped just because they need to learn a nearly pointless habit. They'll still be getting destroyed, but at least it will feel like they are losing because the other player is smarter, not because they are more adept at pushing a button that makes everything in the game faster.

and now I know it isn't.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ok, Bones. I take the first point. I was wrong there, lol. It seems so dumb obvious.

What do you hope to accomplish by removing L cancelling? Like I said, no one who doesn't want to learn it will feel compelled to learn it. Those who do, will.

I sat here for like 12 minutes trying to think of an adequate response to the second point more. I don't understand your statement about tech skill being meaningless. Why is it meaningless? Tech skill gives us way more movement options than what we would have without it. I.E. Wavedashing.

...

I guess I'm just old fashioned. When you look at it, it seems to be something that requires no thought, but I think it would remove some thought process from this game. Now it becomes less about how good your execution is....well, I guess I see your point either way, even though I do not want to really see your point. Same to you, Kal, and Sixonesix.

Spoiler

Anyone mind telling me how I'm supposed to punish Fox now? I being only half serious, but...

EDIT: Also. the player who is better knows how to push buttons well, and is smarter in that regard. Spamming tech skill and being a mindless robot gets you almost nowhere fast in this game, Bones. But I am SORELY outnumbered here, so...

 

[Strong Badam]

Tech skill isn't meaningless
But ShroudedOne
Consider the following hypothetical situation

In this fantasy world, in order to L-cancel, you have to press L, Y, A, and right on the C-Stick within the same time window as standard L-Canceling (6 frames before landing). Does this make the game better?

Your example, wavedashing, is not the same, because it is an option. Not L-Canceling an aerial is realistically not an option in competitive play. Wavedashing adds competitive depth because the player has to decide when to use it, and how to use it, and it makes the game better because of it. L-canceling... not so much. There is some merit to shield tilting to attempt to "mess up" L-Canceling timing, and the fact that **** Ice Climbers, but realistically, most relevant players never miss L-cancels

Project M is not the answer. It's great that so many people are putting effort into it, and it's a great idea, but in reality it is just not viable for tournament play. The game needs to be ready out of the box, not requiring hacks.

Lolol I love it when people say things like this as if it's some profound statement we've never heard before. Thanks, guy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'd co-sign wave-dashing adding more depth, and L-Canceling being just a tech barrier for the hell of it.

Since one has choice and the other does not.

 

[Frame Perfect]

Tech skill isn't meaningless
But ShroudedOne
Consider the following hypothetical situation

In this fantasy world, in order to L-cancel, you have to press L, Y, A, and right on the C-Stick within the same time window as standard L-Canceling (6 frames before landing). Does this make the game better?

your window is 7 frames! 6(air) + 1(ground).

l-cancel is not just unnecessary but an unbalanced mechanism. so...

l-cancel is meaningful: it means that with faster characters you have more opportunities to miss... approaching optimal levels. it's just way easier to have 4 misses with fox than peach. no matter the human.

 

[Kal]

I would say that most high level Fox players don't miss any L-Cancels. I know I hardly miss L-Cancels and my Fox is not very good.

However, even if you're correct, this only emphasizes that you think knowing how to press L at appropriate times is a worthwhile skill. I personally don't think it is, but such an idea is absolutely subjective. I know that I get something of a rush when I am on top of my tech skill with Fox, and very well understand a desire to retain technical skills of this sort.

ShroudedOne, Wavedashing is a move. We're not talking about moves. Strong Bad made a good point supposing you had to press additional buttons in order to L-Cancel, but we're not talking about the removal of L-Canceling, we're talking about the removal of the technical barrier. If we were to apply this in the same vein to Wavedashing, we would not say Wavedashing should be removed, we would say that it should be easier to execute (though I personally feel it is already very easy to execute).

Lolol I love it when people say things like this as if it's some profound statement we've never heard before. Thanks, guy.

I think you're interpreting it that way because you disagree with him. I did not read his post as particularly pretentious. Though this is coming from a guy who feels the need to hyperlink 90% of his posts to some cultural or academic reference.

 

[Frame Perfect]

However, even if you're correct, this only emphasizes that you think knowing how to press L at appropriate times is a worthwhile skill. I personally don't think it is, but such an idea is absolutely subjective.



.

not only is such an idea subjective, it never existed. you just pulled it out of your ***. im going make this as simple as possible so you don’t get sidetracked. me no like l-cancel.

 

[Bing]

Okay guys its obvious what must be done.

Occupy: Nintendo.

So Simple; get you sleeping bags everyone, lets pitch some tents, get some generators, and bring setups!

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

that sounds like we would just lose focus on our cause and focus on games.
good idea( no sarcasm)
edit: cold hand johns

 

[Twinkles]

I also thought L-canceling was a rather unnecessary tech skill barrier, but...

You can mess with your opponents L-cancel timings a little by alternating the size of your shield, potentially getting a grab.

...now I'm not so sure. Discuss?

 

[Pi]

we'll know if smash 4 is a viable fighting game as soon as tripping is or isn't announced

 

[Bing]

we'll know if smash 4 is a viable fighting game as soon as tripping is or isn't announced

I heard they were thinking about adding air tripping...


*goes to second jump, air trips, falls to death*

ggs

 

[Kal]

not only is such an idea subjective, it never existed. you just pulled it out of your ***. im going make this as simple as possible so you don’t get sidetracked. me no like l-cancel.

Sorry, I just misunderstood the point you were making with Fox's L-Cancel being easier to mess up. No need to be hostile.

 

[Massive]

Shield size isn't really a good way to mess up L-cancels, but using a directionally influenced shield is.

This actually exists in modern metagame, but people very, very rarely mention it because most people do it subconsciously. You will sometimes notice that some people seem to get free shield grabs or have more time to punish certain moves than you do, and it is many times due to them having some better ability with shield influence than you do.

If L-canceling were made automatic, certain characters like Fox, Falco, Marth, Jiggs, and Falcon would become even more dominant due to what would be a very large reduction in vulnerability inherent to their play-styles. The small but noticeable difference between very good players and really good players would almost immediately vanish.

Overall, the game would lose some depth.

 

[Strong Badam]

your window is 7 frames! 6(air) + 1(ground).

You can't L-Cancel the frame you land and get it. It's 6 frames.

 

[Acryte]

I don't get why people think that L-cancels are extraneous. In basketball, if you foul someone who makes a shot, not only does he get the basket, and a free throw, but the other player is also issued a foul. Why not just give them 1 point and not have them shoot the free throw? Or why give the free throw or point if they made the shot? They are triple punished, as the foul penalty is enough in itself. In basketball, the free throw is there because hell, at the end of the game you can't just give him the points, its a physical sport and he has to be able to make the shot. It's not just a game of strategy, it has a performance element to it as well. If someone messes up something that is routine, it can still become a turnover that could cost them the game etc. L-cancelling exists as a routine performance element that when messed up provides an opportunity for vulnerability that isn't there simply from reducing the landing lag of all aerials by half...

and guess when most people most often make mistakes? ITS WHEN THEY ARE UNDER PRESSURE. It's an opportunity that could earn you a stock or cost you one. So it's not as if it doesn't hold sway in a match. Its the whole gaming element, hand-eye coordination, physical performance, mental performance, and endurance. This isn't just a game of chess where your physical ability to perform a move under pressure doesn't come into play, where its mainly an issue of mental performance and stamina. Just like competetive sports, a physical aspect helps make the game even better because it's not just about whether you're smart enough, but also whether you can go out there and execute your strategies... and that in my opinion is what makes this game so great.

 

[Kal]

Acryte, it's subjective. Some people might think that the free throw very well should be dropped in favor of simply scoring one point. To each his own; some people think testing a player's ability to execute moves is so much less important than his ability to successfully choose the correct moves that they favor the removal of L-Canceling.

 

[Acryte]

I prefer to have the best of both worlds my man.

 

[Strong Badam]

lolol I don't see how pressing a button is comparable to shooting a basket but w/e

 

[gooftroop13]

Masahiro Sakurai, Melee's designer, reflects upon the differences in Melee and Brawl in this article. Long story short, Melee was too time intensive to design because he was a perfectionist about it (which shows in the gameplay), while it was not accessible to everyone in his own opinion. He foresees all future Smash titles being brawl-esque because he doesn't want only hardcore gamers to play.

Personally, I don't agree as the best part of melee is anyone can pick it up and start playing, but after playing for a year you can still move some of the more technical moves. O well, I guess we must be content with melee forever...

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

 

[ShroudedOne]

Wow. Mistakes everywhere. Shouldn't have compared L-cancelling to an actual movement option. My bad.

That being said, I agree with Acryte. Even though Kal has a good point (like always).