We may all disagree with Sakurai's decision to move away from Melee's gameplay but...

[Life]

^

Consider the following hypothetical situation

In this fantasy world, in order to L-cancel, you have to press L, Y, A, and right on the C-Stick within the same time window as standard L-Canceling (6 frames before landing). Does this make the game better?

(I might sig this BTW)

 

[Qzzy]

Masahiro Sakurai, Melee's designer, reflects upon the differences in Melee and Brawl in this article. Long story short, Melee was too time intensive to design because he was a perfectionist about it (which shows in the gameplay), while it was not accessible to everyone in his own opinion. He foresees all future Smash titles being brawl-esque because he doesn't want only hardcore gamers to play.

Personally, I don't agree as the best part of melee is anyone can pick it up and start playing, but after playing for a year you can still move some of the more technical moves. O well, I guess we must be content with melee forever...

http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

Pretty good article.

I don't know why anyone from this competitive scene expects a fast melee game again from a guy (and company) that makes KIRBY games, which are usually awesome. The guy makes great casual fun games, and he made a CASUAL ACCESSIBLE FIGHTING GAME. That's kind of crazy. The fact the melee turned out the way it did is kind of a black swan. It ain't happening again, not from them. Ever.

Yeah, before I was occasionally down about smash never having melee 2.0 or whatever, but then I saw and touched Project M. And if not project m, probably the attempt after that. Seriously, at this point we, the community, are the best bet for the sequel game we wanted.

I don't expect Smash 4 to be anything melee or awesome, but I hope it's better than brawl. I don't know why, but i didn't even enjoy it on a casual level. I wouldn't mind a portable smash to play with my casual friends; something to mix up from mario kart and drinking mario party.

 

[Kal]

Wow. Mistakes everywhere. Shouldn't have compared L-cancelling to an actual movement option. My bad.

That being said, I agree with Acryte. Even though Kal has a good point (like always).

Well yeah, we all agree that there needs to be some tech skill involved. We're not playing Rock-Paper-Scissors. The debate is on how much tech skill is appropriate. Such a question is obviously going to be answered subjectively.

Personally, I enjoy technical barriers. I don't enjoy absurd technical barriers, like jump-cancel shines, but I think practical ones that make me work hard are fun, such as shffling dair into shine with Fox. I also enjoy that it somewhat prevents lots of people from picking up the character and using him in a high-pressure situation, adding an air of "uniqueness" to my choice to pick Fox (though this is probably nonsensical, since 250% of players play Fox). However, I do think that most people don't feel this way, and I'm willing to settle with this particular loss in technical skill for an increase in accessibility and, therefore, tournament attendance.

 

[Varist]

hold up wait, what do you mean absurd technical barriers like JC shines?

 

[XkaruX]

Getting rid of L canceling so new players can enjoy more serious matches quicker? lol
L canceling is an awesome technique, it's simple, rewarding, and makes you feel accomplished once you master it. Unnecessary? That's subjective... but it is for sure that it adds some depth to the game, and from a competitive point of view that's a good thing.
Melee is a game that has managed to be very deep without being too complicated. I don't think it should be any easier or harder.


Also

If L-canceling were made automatic, certain characters like Fox, Falco, Marth, Jiggs, and Falcon would become even more dominant due to what would be a very large reduction in vulnerability inherent to their play-styles. The small but noticeable difference between very good players and really good players would almost immediately vanish.

Overall, the game would lose some depth.

This.

 

[gm jack]

But there is never a reason to not L cancel. It's a technical barrier for the sake of having one. The only possible exception to this is ICs being able to put out 2 different sized shields to try and mess up their timing.

 

[XkaruX]

But there is never a reason to not L cancel. It's a technical barrier for the sake of having one. The only possible exception to this is ICs being able to put out 2 different sized shields to try and mess up their timing.

Kind of like SSF4 input timing, there's never a reason to press a button earlier or later if you want to perform a combo. Why isn't it like other games like MvC3 where you can just press the button combination even if the animation isn't even showing yet? "Oh, it's a technical barrier for the sake of having one."?

It just make the game what it is. Why would you like Melee to be easier? As I said, it already is a pretty simple game (compared to others) with a great depth.

And.. What Massive said.

 

[Massive]

But there is never a reason to not L cancel.

I agree with you.

It's a technical barrier for the sake of having one.

This is only a half truth. It is definitely a technical barrier but again, it is quite possible to mess up someone's game by altering their L-Cancel timing. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Fox's dair > shine, for example, becomes nearly nonpunishable if you don't flub the L-cancel (watch a video of mango ruining someone's day by doing this). You do not see people doing this willy-nilly, it is not easy (dair has a lot of hits and the L-cancel timing is not uniform) and it can be punished if messed up (which it frequently is). Fox not needing to L-cancel this or nair > shine or bair > shine or any other list of moves would permanently reduce his vulnerability. There would be fewer openings to punish him and he would become harder to beat.

On that note, removing L-canceling would almost instantly make every top tier character 'pick-up-and-1337'. The biggest technical barrier to space animals would be GONE. Shorthop-doubleshine-blahblah is fancy but L-cancelling is the difference between a scrub fox and a scary one. How is that superfluous? It would reshape and very likely remove a substantial competitive level from the game.

One could easily build an entire play-style around messing up someone else's L-cancels and punishing, in fact, I'm quite convinced this has already happened.

 

[Bing]

Pretty good article.

I don't know why anyone from this competitive scene expects a fast melee game again from a guy (and company) that makes KIRBY games, which are usually awesome. The guy makes great casual fun games, and he made a CASUAL ACCESSIBLE FIGHTING GAME. That's kind of crazy. The fact the melee turned out the way it did is kind of a black swan. It ain't happening again, not from them. Ever.

No one really expects a Melee 2.0 or anything like that, we all just pray that it happens, we have all read the articles and threads in regards to a new Melee.

Now because we know we are never going to receive a game like Melee again, we took it upon ourselves in the creation of Project M, now whether or people want to make the jump is entirely on them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You can't mess up some with with your shield if they know how to alter the timing of their L-Cancel. Which isn't that hard from what I've seen.

 

[Kal]

hold up wait, what do you mean absurd technical barriers like JC shines?

Pretty much: it's too hard.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think Massive brings up an excellent point. Spacies and Falcon become quite free without L-cancelling.

This next sentence is really biased, but I don't feel like Peach could ever win against Fox if L-cancelling was gone. But that isn't a reason to leave it in. Just refer to Massive's post.

 

[The Star King]

If Peach can't win vs Fox with automatic l-canceling, does that mean you're saying Peach must normally rely on Fox messing up his l-cancels to win? *rolls eyes*

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm only kidding, gosh. Peach can beat Fox if he never messes up an L-cancel. I'm only saying that makes it easier... >.>

Lots....easier.

 

[Massive]

You can't mess up some with with your shield if they know how to alter the timing of their L-Cancel. Which isn't that hard from what I've seen.

I guarantee you that nobody can get their L-cancel 100% of the time. It is not a possibility. They WILL mess up.

Watch a few high profile matches through the lens of l-canceling. See how many times a punish occurs from a flubbed l-cancel or from misreading the timing on someone else's l-cancel.

Players, even "pros", do not always L-cancel with the frequency people assume they do.

 

[Life]

Everything else you do in Smash is a decision (except maybe certain recovery situations). L-canceling is not. That is the difference.

Make L-canceling a decision and then I'll think it's good.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Getting punished for L-cancelling sounds really dumb, though....you might as well just take it out. I mean, getting punished for doing something correct? This isn't Brawl.

 

[Warhawk]

You can't mess up some with with your shield if they know how to alter the timing of their L-Cancel. Which isn't that hard from what I've seen.

I thought you could change what shield you use right before they hit your shield so as to throw off their timing slightly and create an opportunity for them to miss an l-cancel, especially if you're ice climbers...

 

[Varist]

Just spam Z and never miss your L-cancels guys wtf. if you can multishine you can slob l-cancel, dayum.

 

[Kal]

Getting punished for L-cancelling sounds really dumb, though....you might as well just take it out. I mean, getting punished for doing something correct? This isn't Brawl.

Why is it correct if it gets you punished? And I really think we should avoid this anti-Brawl elitism.

There's nothing inherently wrong with adding depth by forcing you to decide if reducing your lag in half is worth doing.

Take Peach vs. Marth: if Peach L-Cancels her fair, Marth's JC grab will get her because she will rise from her landing animation sooner. If she misses her L-Cancel (i.e., does not do it), Marth's JC grab will likely whiff. This is an example (probably the only one) where it's beneficial to not L-Cancel. This, in some minuscule way, adds depth to the game.

Anyway, the point is just that you're starting with the premise that it's correct to L-Cancel, then deciding that anything which works against this is a bad mechanic.

 

[Strong Badam]

I only miss like 3 or 5 L-Cancels per tournament.
Add like 5 if an Ice Climbers is in attendance.

Intentionally missing L-cancels to use your landlag animation to dodge something is cute but in the grand scheme of things largely insignificant.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

I have never ever heard of somebody purposely missing an L-cancel to dodge an attack.

 

[Varist]

bowser does that hardcore limbo **** when he lands

 

[ShroudedOne]

Why is it correct if it gets you punished? And I really think we should avoid this anti-Brawl elitism.

There's nothing inherently wrong with adding depth by forcing you to decide if reducing your lag in half is worth doing.

Take Peach vs. Marth: if Peach L-Cancels her fair, Marth's JC grab will get her because she will rise from her landing animation sooner. If she misses her L-Cancel (i.e., does not do it), Marth's JC grab will likely whiff. This is an example (probably the only one) where it's beneficial to not L-Cancel. This, in some minuscule way, adds depth to the game.

Anyway, the point is just that you're starting with the premise that it's correct to L-Cancel, then deciding that anything which works against this is a bad mechanic.

Fine. No more anti-Brawl

Spoiler

for you, Kal.

? I'm fairly sure Marth could grab her either way. She doesn't duck that low...

And haven't you all been the ones saying that there is NO reason to L-cancel? Therefore, isn't it NEVER incorrect to L-cancel, by that logic?

The argument that people are using against L-cancelling is that there is never a reason to NOT do it. So that means that it is the optimal solution in all scenarios where you have a decision between not cancelling the aerial at all (no AC) and L-cancelling the aerial.

Everything else you do in Smash is a decision (except maybe certain recovery situations). L-canceling is not. That is the difference.

Make L-canceling a decision and then I'll think it's good.

This is what I'm referring to. Let me rephrase it better. Why should I be punished for something that I have no choice in doing (as you all have stated), and for something that is ONLY ever a good thing?

 

[Kal]

I'm fairly sure Marth could grab her either way. She doesn't duck that low...

If Marth does a JC grab, it will whiff. I'm 90% sure of it. Marth's standing grab is quite high.

And haven't you all been the ones saying that there is NO reason to L-cancel? Therefore, isn't it NEVER incorrect to L-cancel, by that logic?

I've presented a single (and likely the only) situation where it's incorrect to L-Cancel. I still stand by the statement that there is "no" reason not to L-Cancel, though I think it's clear there that I mean that it's almost universally better to L-Cancel.

The argument that people are using against L-cancelling is that there is never a reason to NOT do it. So that means that it is the optimal solution in all scenarios where you have a decision between not cancelling the aerial at all (no AC) and L-cancelling the aerial.

This is what I'm referring to. Let me rephrase it better. Why should I be punished for something that I have no choice in doing (as you all have stated), and for something that is ONLY ever a good thing?

Again, I refer you to my example. You're assuming, in the first place, that it's only ever a good thing. We're in agreement, with the way L-Canceling is programmed into the game, that there really is no situation where you should not L-Cancel.

What some of us are saying is that, if there were situations where it would be pertinent to know not to L-Cancel, then the mechanic would be worth having, because it would not just be an "unnecessary" technical skill. As we currently have it, there is virtually no situation where you should not L-Cancel, and so it becomes an "unnecessary" technical skill.

However, the point still stands: if you're being punished for it, then it's not necessarily the correct thing to do. Keep in mind, though, that once you've introduced a mechanic which makes L-Canceling punishable, you've changed the game altogether, so it's no longer correct to say that L-Canceling is "only ever a good thing."

 

[ShroudedOne]

*grrrrr*

Again. Darn you Kal. Well played.

But...cutting the lag from your aerials...why should that ever be a bad thing? That's what I want to know.

 

[Kal]

Well, whether it should be a bad thing is for you to decide, personally. I would probably agree that there should not exist a mechanic where intentionally reducing the lag of your aerials gets you punished, but I have no justification for such a stance. It's entirely subjective.

But, if you simply want an example of how it can be a bad thing, I refer you to the example I gave. You can even generalize it: suppose every time you L-Canceled, you got up sooner, and this allowed your opponent to attack you sooner (suppose further that this was taken into consideration when the characters' attacks were programmed). Then you would need to decide if L-Canceling a whiff'd move would be worth doing.

 

[kirbypox369]

Personally i find l cancel useless unless its a really slow character (bowser or ganon). I kind of find ur argument amusing because there are so many other tactics that would make a better argument, such as wave dashing vs rolling, character cheapness, etc. But i also love this site because i swear 1/4 of the people on this site are english proffesors, how do u write 5 paragraghs on l-canceling...haha

 

[Kal]

cuz we r english proffesors

 

[Pengie]

I don't get why people complain about L-canceling and say nothing about Peach's Float Cancels. Is there any situation where she wouldn't want to FC? Pretty sure the answer is no, so going by that logic we should make all of Peaches aerials have a frame landing animation right?

 

[Kal]

When people say they want L-Canceling removed, they usually mean that they want the technical motion to be removed. In other words, they still want aerials to have half lag, they simply don't want to force people to press L within 6 frames of landing. With Float Canceling, she has to be floating. You're asking for a fundamental change in the mechanics of how Peach plays. All those who want L-Canceling removed are asking for is one fewer button press.

 

[Varist]

Personally i find l cancel useless unless its a really slow character (bowser or ganon). I kind of find ur argument amusing because there are so many other tactics that would make a better argument, such as wave dashing vs rolling, character cheapness, etc. But i also love this site because i swear 1/4 of the people on this site are english proffesors, how do u write 5 paragraghs on l-canceling...haha

pristine specimen, he even mains kirby.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't get why people complain about L-canceling and say nothing about Peach's Float Cancels. Is there any situation where she wouldn't want to FC? Pretty sure the answer is no, so going by that logic we should make all of Peaches aerials have a frame landing animation right?

That implies Peach can always float lol.
Also much harder to automate a mechanic that can have such dynamically different timing and still work

 

[Pengie]

When people say they want L-Canceling removed, they usually mean that they want the technical motion to be removed. In other words, they still want aerials to have half lag, they simply don't want to force people to press L within 6 frames of landing. They don't want all aerials to have full lag.

I'm aware of that. what I'm trying to say is that there is an inherent hypocrisy in criticizing L canceling and leaving Float Cancel out of the criticism. Both are options that are far better than their alternatives; L canceling is strictly better than not L canceling and, like I said, I can't imagine a situation where Float Canceling is a worse option than L canceling or not a Float or L Canceling all together. In this vein, they are extremely similar and I don't see why people suggest that landing lag be automatically cut in half, but never suggest that Peach's aerials automatically have 4 frames of landing lag because you would always want to float cancel so why not make it always happen for Peach.

Just felt like pointing out what I thought was an interesting difference of perspective on two similar things.

 

[Strong Badam]

Float Canceling changes your momentum and limits options while at the same time opens them up upon landing. It's also a time commitment, and in many cases standard rising aerials are a better option. It is not a "Do every time" situation like with L-Canceling. Not even close.

 

[Kal]

Sorry Pengie, I've had a string of reading comprehension problems in this thread. Anyway, I edited my original post to better explain why I think there is a distinction between L-Canceling and Float Canceling: all you're doing with the former is pressing L during a 6 frame window of any aerial. With the latter, you have to float first. The mechanic is entirely different. It's not an unnecessary technical skill by any means (unless you think floating could somehow be made easier).

If you were to correctly apply our logic to Float Canceling, you would say something like "it is always ideal to Float Cancel, so there should be no technical input required at the end of a floated aerial." However, Float Canceling required no such input. This is likely from where you derived the incorrect "by that logic" statement.

 

[Life]

Float Canceling can be justified as being a mechanic that differentiates Peach from the rest of the cast.

 

[Snakeyes]

Kind of like SSF4 input timing, there's never a reason to press a button earlier or later if you want to perform a combo.

Sure there is. You can drop a combo/blockstring and go for a grab if the opponent is not paying attention. You can decide to block mid combo if you think that the opponent is mashing reversal and punish.

Plus, combos where you cancel normals into specials are not very hard. Sure, there are 1-frame link combos but most people don't attempt them even in tournaments if they don't have to. Why do you think the top players use Sagat, Fei and Yun for?


About the shield DI thing: what if shielding at the right time when pressing a direction made the opponent's aerial have more recovery or push you to a safe distance? That would reward a player for anticipating the opponent's aerial without the need for an unnecessary barrier like L-canceling.

 

[Jolteon]

I don't get why people complain about L-canceling and say nothing about Peach's Float Cancels. Is there any situation where she wouldn't want to FC? Pretty sure the answer is no, so going by that logic we should make all of Peaches aerials have a frame landing animation right?

Floating implies a commitment (i.e. something that has certain disadvantages), not really the same logic whatsoever.

 

[rawrimamonster]

OP, unless you can get a mass amount of players (hundreds of thousands) INCLUDING the casuals who WANTED brawl the way it is to sign a mass petition bigger than anything the starmen could have. Then you're not even gonna get sakurai's attention. Sakurai's aim was to destroy competitive smash at the melee standard (though he didn't word it like that, that was the deeper intent) and he half succeeded by splitting the community. I doubt after succeeding he'd go back and "fix" his "mistake" and make another wonderful game like melee. If anything he'll take what competitive elements are left in smash that were obvious in brawl and destroy that too...though idk what else he can take away.

I really gotta think back to the time when smash players were invited to test brawl, it was such a cleverly designed trap. They knew immediately competitive players would weed out advantageous elements in brawl and use them to their advantage, and that was just what they wanted. But how could those players have known...

Next time we get invited to a smash test, don't say anything at all...maybe something good will get left in.