Wavedash - DISCONFIRMED!

[GreenKirby]

that's not true at all. mewtwo had a good wavedash but he still sucks. Meanwhile peach has a tiny *** little wavedash and she's really good

While Luigi and the Ice Climbers would be bad without wavedashing.

And this isn't aimed at you (unless you said it), but whoever says that Brawl will suck only because wavedashing is removed should do us all a favor and just kill yourself. >_>

 

[Kryptonite X]

If WDing really is gone, then I'm not going to be angry because I can't use it, but because the developers removed something that they had no real reason to remove. It's not like it was some huge game breaking glitch that could ruin the game for casual players. And even without WDing pros will still destroy casual players, so it's not like they're making tournaments accessible to everyone. Removing advanced tactics in a game like Brawl just seems like a giant undeserved punch to balls of everyone in the competitive scene.

Even with WDing gone, there is still plenty of hope left for advanced play. It would be impossible for a handful of developers to find and fix every exploit/glitch in the game. There should be a half a dozen advanced tactics discovered by February 10.

How does removing wavedashing NOT make the game more accessible? And as I said before, not pissing off tournament players is at the bottom of the list in terms of priority for brawl.

 

[BentoBox]

How does removing wavedashing NOT make the game more accessible? And as I said before, pissing off tournament players is at the bottom of the list in terms of priority for brawl.

Most of the emo carebears on these forums have yet to realise that.

 

[h1roshi]

in or not, the smash community will figure out new advanced stuff in brawl. its inevitable. we'll adjust to the new metagmae and everything will be fine. it ok guys. brawl will be amazing. but it WOULD be hot if wavedashing was in...peace

-hiroshi

 

[Kryptonite X]

Thank god for reasonable posters in this thread, I swear 90% of the people who post in the general brawl forums have no common sense whatsoever nowadays. Wavedashing is by no means critical, but it adds an extra level of detail into the game by introducing new and more advanced mindgames into the equation. The people who complain about wavedashing as being difficult havent sat down for 2 hours to take the time to learn it. It isn't hard, get over it.

I'm hoping really really hard that this post was sarcasm, but incase it isn't.....



Did anyone NOT notice this ironic part in his post?

The people who complain about wavedashing as being difficult havent sat down for 2 hours to take the time to learn it. It isn't hard, get over it.

XD, that gave me quite the laugh good sir, it's almost siggable.

 

[Mambo]

So was Yoshi doing a diagnal dodge in the Yoshi vs. Pit fight? Was he doing an arrial dodge at the ground, but it now has it's own animation?

 

[limitbreak]

I just read a little bit of the first page of this thread and I have to say ... until its announced that wavedashing is gone then im going to beleive that it will be in brawl. You cant just decide by a video of them not wavedashing!

 

[PeeP]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WAvedash is awesome. =(
Well at least luigi will suck if hes put in now. lol i hate luigi.

 

[Nekora]

Ever notice how tourney players have extremely arbitrary rules for what's OK in a match and what's not?

Example: Final Destination is the only stage you can really play on competitively. Because platforms and other complex stage features are 'unfair' and give advantages to certain characters, apparently.(There's some tourney players who like Battlefield though, I'm aware, but there's an entire class of tourney players who hate playing on anything besides FD)

But wavedashing is in. Because it most certainly does NOT give advantages to certain characters, and most certainly is NOT an abuse of the physics engine, and is actually an intentionally designed element of the game, unlike those dumb platforms.

Turning off the snark, I'm personally glad that Wavedashing is gone. I can do it, and I've been known to do it every so often, but I've always thought it was pretty lame. Kind of like how you used to be able to make Custom Combos unblockable in one of the Street Fighter Alpha games, although it's not nearly as game-breaking as that. It was part of competitive play, sure. Was it indended? No. It was actually pretty lame, but if you wanted to win, you had to do it, because everyone else did. That's the situation with Wavedashing.

Most of the tourney players have somehow convinced themselves that Wavedashing is NOT a lame exploit of the physics system, but is actually a COOL FEATURE that adds DEPTH to the game. I'm not entirely sure how they managed this, but sometimes people get so used to something awful that they just can't imagine living without it anymore. (I'm looking at you, too, Windows; I'm guilty of this one too)

Wavedashing actually REMOVED depth from the game by making it less about predicting what you're opponent's going to do, by giving certain characters a degree of mobility they really shouldn't have had (Lessening the mindgame aspect), and it arguably limited the number of characters most people consider suitable for tournament play (Notice that lots of popular tournament characters have great wavedashes, or, lacking that, enough other features to MAKE UP for the lack of a good wavedash). Neither of these things has a positive effect on game depth.

As for the so-called positive influences on game-depth? As other have mentioned in the thread before, adding a complex button-sequence for simple movement does NOT add depth. It only promotes carpal tunnel.

Seriously, people, give up the Wavedash. There will be other strategies in Brawl. Yes, it's being made more accessible. That doesn't mean that the better players won't be able to reliably beat the n00bs. What it DOES mean is that you won't be able to use Luigi to get a burst of speed across a floor while charging a smash by using some arcane and nonsensical button-formula, which is obviously broken. Now start practicing your SHUFFLing some more.

On a different note, this is my first post here. I'm a longtime melee player; I'd put myself at the top end of the 'casual player' spectrum, where I can beat the vast majority of other casual players, and get lucky against the midling-range tourney players now and then. You'll probably start seeing more of me lurking around the forums.

Nekora

 

[Crispy4001]

Ever notice how tourney players have extremely arbitrary rules for what's OK in a match and what's not?

Example: Final Destination is the only stage you can really play on competitively.

Ever notice how non-tourney players like to make up arbitrary rules they think competitive players follow?

Yeah I noticed too.

 

[Hydde]

Hey but no one have proved if is gone or not.

Ill wait until tomorrow becaue even hwne INfil seems to be a good guy.. i have not seen specific proof!.

 

[Nekora]

Ever notice how non-tourney players like to make up arbitrary rules they think competitive players follow?

Yeah I noticed too.

Notice that I said that not all tourney players are like that. You might not insist on FD, but there's quite a few tourney players I know who actually DO insist on it.

Perhaps you think people who insist on FD are lamers, but such people DO exist, according to my entirely anecdotal statistcal sample based on my experience with tourney players, they're at LEAST a significant minority of tourney players. It's not the most scientific assertion, but unless someone goes out and does a real study on this, I dare you to come up with any non-anecdotal evidence contradicting it.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

nekora is dumb, everyone point and laugh now

*points and laughs*

just so you know, we dont have to defend our rules, our rules have been constantly improving (and even now are still improving) to ensure the most balance possible over a period of more than 5 years, i'm sorry but your silly assumptions you thought up in 10 minutes aren't correct, and i'm not goin to bother throwing the complete history of smash in your face to contradict what you are saying lol

 

[bluebomber22]

Ever notice how tourney players have extremely arbitrary rules for what's OK in a match and what's not?

Example: Final Destination is the only stage you can really play on competitively. Because platforms and other complex stage features are 'unfair' and give advantages to certain characters, apparently.(There's some tourney players who like Battlefield though, I'm aware, but there's an entire class of tourney players who hate playing on anything besides FD)

But wavedashing is in. Because it most certainly does NOT give advantages to certain characters, and most certainly is NOT an abuse of the physics engine, and is actually an intentionally designed element of the game, unlike those dumb platforms.

Turning off the snark, I'm personally glad that Wavedashing is gone. I can do it, and I've been known to do it every so often, but I've always thought it was pretty lame. Kind of like how you used to be able to make Custom Combos unblockable in one of the Street Fighter Alpha games, although it's not nearly as game-breaking as that. It was part of competitive play, sure. Was it indended? No. It was actually pretty lame, but if you wanted to win, you had to do it, because everyone else did. That's the situation with Wavedashing.

Most of the tourney players have somehow convinced themselves that Wavedashing is NOT a lame exploit of the physics system, but is actually a COOL FEATURE that adds DEPTH to the game. I'm not entirely sure how they managed this, but sometimes people get so used to something awful that they just can't imagine living without it anymore. (I'm looking at you, too, Windows; I'm guilty of this one too)

Wavedashing actually REMOVED depth from the game by making it less about predicting what you're opponent's going to do, by giving certain characters a degree of mobility they really shouldn't have had (Lessening the mindgame aspect), and it arguably limited the number of characters most people consider suitable for tournament play (Notice that lots of popular tournament characters have great wavedashes, or, lacking that, enough other features to MAKE UP for the lack of a good wavedash). Neither of these things has a positive effect on game depth.

As for the so-called positive influences on game-depth? As other have mentioned in the thread before, adding a complex button-sequence for simple movement does NOT add depth. It only promotes carpal tunnel.

Seriously, people, give up the Wavedash. There will be other strategies in Brawl. Yes, it's being made more accessible. That doesn't mean that the better players won't be able to reliably beat the n00bs. What it DOES mean is that you won't be able to use Luigi to get a burst of speed across a floor while charging a smash by using some arcane and nonsensical button-formula, which is obviously broken. Now start practicing your SHUFFLing some more.

On a different note, this is my first post here. I'm a longtime melee player; I'd put myself at the top end of the 'casual player' spectrum, where I can beat the vast majority of other casual players, and get lucky against the midling-range tourney players now and then. You'll probably start seeing more of me lurking around the forums.

Nekora

this post is full of win

 

[Kimosabae]

Wow. The level of childish, unimaginative, illogical, ethnocentric SCRUBBERY has pitched to obscene depths of stupidity with the current flux of casual players. Once Brawl releases, I may have to stop coming to these forums.


-SynikaL

 

[gnosis]

That's why accepting it into the pantheon of intended abilities is not the obvious course of action you seem to view it as. If the developers include it as part of the intended playstyle (the predicted playstyle the game is going to be balanced around), then the Smash series ceases to be about simplicity like it was supposed to and starts to turn into a whole different kind of game.

I think I've found your post's problem that was causing my misinterpretation. You're saying 'simple', when what you mean is 'intuitive'. Wavedashing is a simpler technique than SHFFLing, from a control perspective. However, SHFFLing is more intuitive. So your real problem with wavedashing, from a design perspective, isn't that it's hard to do, but that it isn't obvious... since clearly, SHFFLing is more of both of those qualities.

Since you were saying that Smash is about simplicity and ease of control, when you mean to say it's about intuitive gameplay, I had to correct you on the difficulty of the techniques you were accepting and how the one you let in was actually harder than the one you let out. It lead to a contradiction. Now that I see what you're really meaning, there's no problem so long as one accepts your premises.

Though I have no idea where you got your info in the first part of that quote; I said absolutely nothing about my opinion on what wavedashing's future should be or is going to be. I only said that SHFFLing was harder than wavedashing, so if we're eliminating techniques based on technical difficulty like your original post was implying, SHFFLing would go first.

Your lengthy posts and over-explaining things to make sure people get what you're saying reminds me of me.

 

[KirbySSB]

(There's some tourney players who like Battlefield though, I'm aware, but there's an entire class of tourney players who hate playing on anything besides FD)

No. The 4chan/Encyclopediadramatica exaggerations of the tournament scene are completely false, and anybody who refuses to play any stage other than FD is looked down upon in the tourney scene.

 

[GOTM]

Ever notice how tourney players have extremely arbitrary rules for what's OK in a match and what's not?

Example: Final Destination is the only stage you can really play on competitively. Because platforms and other complex stage features are 'unfair' and give advantages to certain characters, apparently.(There's some tourney players who like Battlefield though, I'm aware, but there's an entire class of tourney players who hate playing on anything besides FD)

Have you ever been to a tournament? I have seen more than enough tournament matches on Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield, Dreamland, Yoshi's Story, Pokemon Stadium, Poke Floats, Mute City, and Brinstar. In fact, most of them are included in the Random stage selection at every tournament. Get your facts straight bro before you start making assumptions.

 

[Zauron]

I think I've found your post's problem that was causing my misinterpretation. You're saying 'simple', when what you mean is 'intuitive'. Wavedashing is a simpler technique than SHFFLing, from a control perspective. However, SHFFLing is more intuitive. So your real problem with wavedashing, from a design perspective, isn't that it's hard to do, but that it isn't obvious... since clearly, SHFFLing is more of both of those qualities.

Since you were saying that Smash is about simplicity and ease of control, when you mean to say it's about intuitive gameplay, I had to correct you on the difficulty of the techniques you were accepting and how the one you let in was actually harder than the one you let out. It lead to a contradiction. Now that I see what you're really meaning, there's no problem so long as one accepts your premises.

Though I have no idea where you got your info in the first part of that quote; I said absolutely nothing about my opinion on what wavedashing's future should be or is going to be. I only said that SHFFLing was harder than wavedashing, so if we're eliminating techniques based on technical difficulty like your original post was implying, SHFFLing would go first.

Your lengthy posts and over-explaining things to make sure people get what you're saying reminds me of me.

I strongly believe SHFFLing is also going away, to be replaced by, well, SHFFLing but without the requirement that you press L. Making it easier to do with 1 less button press.

 

[gnosis]

Notice that I said that not all tourney players are like that. You might not insist on FD, but there's quite a few tourney players I know who actually DO insist on it.

Perhaps you think people who insist on FD are lamers, but such people DO exist, according to my entirely anecdotal statistcal sample based on my experience with tourney players, they're at LEAST a significant minority of tourney players. It's not the most scientific assertion, but unless someone goes out and does a real study on this, I dare you to come up with any non-anecdotal evidence contradicting it.

Uh, tournament rules in pretty much any Smashboards tourney post-East-Coast's-FD-only? Tournament rules in the biggest, most attended Smash tournaments ever, from FC to OC to MLG?

Boy that was hard.

These "tourney players" you're citing can hardly be called part of the tourney community at large, considering they go against the community's rules for the past handful of years.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

this post is full of fail

Fixed.

Nekora fails.

I don't even need to explain myself.

 

[Nekora]

No. The 4chan/Encyclopediadramatica exaggerations of the tournament scene are completely false, and anybody who refuses to play any stage other than FD is looked down upon in the tourney scene.

Funny story: I'd never seen an ED entry on tourney players before, nor do I hang out on 4chan, so after I read your post, I went and checked out the ED entry.

The highlight? A screenshot of a post from what appears to be this very forum explaining the rationale of why all but 5 or 6 stages in Melee have been banned by most tournaments for various reasons.

QED.

Regardless, I didn't get this opinion of tournament players from some obscure 4chan meme, but rather by playing with as many Melee players as I could in the dorms at college. Sorry to bust your bubble.

 

[smasher32]

this may just be me being a noob, but I honestly don't see it. could someone explain it a bit more in depth

 

[BananaNut]

Super smash brothers brawl isn't melee 2, and I'm glad there are changes to it. Everyone will just have to quit whining and calling other people noobs, Scrubs, ext. and start dealing that WDing is gone. Period.

 

[Zek]

I just read a little bit of the first page of this thread and I have to say ... until its announced that wavedashing is gone then im going to beleive that it will be in brawl. You cant just decide by a video of them not wavedashing!

Are you being dense intentionally or do you really not understand what he's saying? We have video proof of a player holding right on the control stick while pressing the dodge button in mid-air and not doing a directional airdodge. In other words, directional airdodging is out. Wavedashing is impossible without directional airdodging, and anyone with the slightest idea how it works should know this.

 

[KirbySSB]

Funny story: I'd never seen an ED entry on tourney players before, nor do I hang out on 4chan, so after you read your post, I went and checked out the ED entry.

The highlight? A screenshot of a post from what appears to be this very forum explaining the rationale of why all but 5 or 6 stages in Melee have been banned by most tournaments for various reasons.

QED.

Regardless, I didn't get this opinion of tournament players from some obscure 4chan meme, but rather by playing with as many Melee players as I could in the dorms at college. Sorry to bust your bubble.

funny how you know exactly what article I am referring to along with the fact you know about the 4chan meme.

 

[Kryptonite X]

Hey but no one have proved if is gone or not.

Ill wait until tomorrow becaue even hwne INfil seems to be a good guy.. i have not seen specific proof!.

Except for the proof in the first post and various other threads, videos, and posts?



Stage 1 is a rather hard barrier to cross, but it can be done.

 

[veil222]

The reason I believe wavedash is out is similar to what a few people have said on here, one, non intuitive, two, more than that it's unbalancing. SHFFL you can use effectively with ANYONE, wavedashing is bias twoards characters with low friction or fast jump frames (luigi, fox). Because of teir distinction in melee, it seems to me to make every character as playable, or close to, as any other this is something that needed to be severely modifyed or taken out. It always bummed me out that mewtwo was bottom/low teir, he's a cool origonal character, but a tourney fox, or worse, marth, will own him every time. So I think balance int he thing to look at here more so than disecting videos, though of course since direction air dodge seems out, wavedashing would at the least be a whole different thing if it even exists anymore.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

wavedash removing balance? o.O

these silly scrubs and their crazy theories lol

 

[Sundown]

veil222, that "smash n00b" thingy that says under your name describes you perfectly

Wavedashing helped BALANCE Melee, not unbalance it, for crying out loud, if you dont know your facts straight, then shut up.

 

[spikehappy07]

Why will you not play Brawl if WD is out? It makes no sense. I say just build a bridge and get over it. Besides, veteran players like yourself should be able to find new tactics to throw off your oppenents. Real players shouldn't fuss over little glitches like WDing. I say will PWN, with or without WD. That's all.

 

[veil222]

Productivity please gimpy? You aren't helping anyone by name calling. Are you saying that in melee characters with good wavedashes don't have an advantage over characters that don't? By the way, post count doesnt equal uber, just like steam ID doesnt equal veteran status, I very well could have played melee just as much as you.

 

[mrbiz]

I lack preference on whether I want WDing in or out, since this is an entirely new game. However I do believe the evidence so far is too lacking to be considered proof. We do not know how much the physics have changed, it is possible he wasn't DIing, but simply moving by momentum at that point. Instead I must agree that these topics are all just impatient arguments, seeing how definitive proof will be available very soon.

 

[KirbySSB]

Productivity please gimpy? You aren't helping anyone by name calling. Are you saying that in melee characters with good wavedashes don't have an advantage over characters that don't?

mewtwo has a great wavedash and he still sucks. it has nothing to do with how good a character is

 

[veil222]

Yup, you're right mrbiz, I can't wait to see a veteran play brawl and dissect it a bit, it'll be interesting to see the arsenal that well have to work with as far as techs/physics go.

 

[SwiftBass]

what are u serious? like i tought the guy actually tried it im not conviced yet, the guy did a ****ty air dodge. and how dont u know that diddy kong doesnt have link/bowser traction? this clip is a waste of time and i wont be convinced till i lpay it or see someone competent play it.

 

[bluebomber22]

Fixed.

Nekora fails.

I don't even need to explain myself.

All im sayin is SSB64 was fine without wavedashing. I dont see it as essential to the game. at least not like l-cancelling....

 

[veil222]

Mewtwo has slow jump frames, so his WD doesn't chain as well as fox/samus, it's a good dash, but more of mewtwo's problem is stats, I've seen some great mewtwo players and his WD is pretty redeeming, takes him out of bottom teir into low. That adds to my argument that a good wavedash shoves a character up the teir list, however, this isn't specifically what the topic is on, so.... back on subject before and off topic "zomgn00blawlz" war starts.

Wavedashing definately seems either out or really situational, to me though they're giving us alot more tools to get options for tactics elsewhere, and I actually like those alot more than the concept of WD'ing.

 

[KirbySSB]

Mewtwo has slow jump frames, so his WD doesn't chain as well as fox/samus, it's a good dash, but more of mewtwo's problem is stats, I've seen some great mewtwo players and his WD is pretty redeeming, takes him out of bottom teir into low. That adds to my argument that a good wavedash shoves a character up the teir list, however, this isn't specifically what the topic is on, so.... back on subject before and off topic "zomgn00blawlz" war starts.

mewtwo is still definitely bottom tier, probably worst character in the game

 

[Zek]

what are u serious? like i tought the guy actually tried it im not conviced yet, the guy did a ****ty air dodge. and how dont u know that diddy kong doesnt have link/bowser traction? this clip is a waste of time and i wont be convinced till i lpay it or see someone competent play it.

It doesn't matter how good he was. He was pressing a combination of buttons that should have resulted in a directional airdodge, but did not. Thus, directional airdodging is out.

Stage 1.