Wavedash - DISCONFIRMED!

[SiD]

Well Frostbyte, look at a game like Streetfighter 3. That game doesn't have any crazy techniques, just attacks, specials, grabs, and blocks. And parrys. But it's still a competitive game. Sides, this gives us new techniques while removing an old one, it isn't just getting rid of everthing and giving nothing back.

 

[BentoBox]

Sigh times 9000.

 

[SirroMinus1]

can someone please post the video from youtube

 

[bluebomber22]

A good player should be able to play with and without wavedashing.....

now continue the flaming....wait..*grabs protoman's shield*.....NOW continue the flaming..........

 

[Pookiez]

A good player should be able to play with and without wavedashing.....

now continue the flaming....wait..*grabs protoman's shield*.....NOW continue the flaming..........

It highly depends on the character.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

This thread is ********, I still don't see what the video proves.

If WD is out, so be it imo.

 

[Eaode]

A good player should be able to play with and without wavedashing.....

now continue the flaming....wait..*grabs protoman's shield*.....NOW continue the flaming..........

Yes, we can play without it. That's totally a good reason to take out a technique that adds movement options and depth to the game.

We can also live without clothes, cars, or currency.

 

[StevenM]

I blame Dylan Tnga for this.

If he hadn't spazzed out all the time and called people "****ing scrubs", then tournament players wouldn't be lumped together with tournytards and you wouldn't be sitting here trying to justify engine exploits. Oh, and the raids too.

 

[S2]

Even if WDing is out...

I think we can be pretty confident that over the next few years, as we get used to Brawl, new advanced techs that weren't possible in Melee will start to emerge.

Newbs who wanted WDing out can celebrate all they want. Fact is, they aren't nearly as good as the tournament players and WDing or not, the tournament crowd will find new techs that the newbs can't use because they actually require skill.

 

[FrostByte]

Who cares how easy the tech skill is. Melee's at the point where like THE COMPETITIVE SCENE has the tech skill mastered, but that doesn't mean everyone is just as good. All that determines how good a player is is how smart the player is. Good tech skill is pretty much assumed now. All easier tech skill does it enlarge the pool of competitive players. I'd rather 90% of my opponents have the tech down than only like 50%. It's not as fun facing someone who constantly misses his L-cancels.

I'm not talking about how much "techskill" players have. I'm saying that while the prediction (or how smart the player is) is still there, the punishment may not be executed due to the lack of options one mignt have at given situation.

The poster below you has a good point though.

 

[bluebomber22]

It highly depends on the character.

obviously, but im talkin about it being in the game in general

Yes, we can play without it. That's totally a good reason to take out a technique that adds movement options and depth to the game.

We can also live without clothes, cars, or currency.

Its not a good reason to take it out, but it is a good reason not to cry about it.

The previous 2 smashes have been highly competitve. Im sure this one will be too. If sakurai took it out, he prolly had a good reason. i have no idea what it is, but hey deal with it..

 

[brandutt845]

Even if WDing is out...

I think we can be pretty confident that over the next few years, as we get used to Brawl, new advanced techs that weren't possible in Melee will start to emerge.

Newbs who wanted WDing out can celebrate all they want. Fact is, they aren't nearly as good as the tournament players and WDing or not, the tournament crowd will find new techs that the newbs can't use because they actually require skill.

That should earn post of this THREAD!

 

[Nintendude]

I'm not talking about how much "techskill" players have. I'm saying that while the prediction (or how smart the player is) is still there, the punishment may not be executed due to the lack of options one mignt have at given situation.

The poster below you has a good point though.

The punishment may not be there because of the possibility of removed advanced techs? That doesn't even make sense. Yes, removing an advanced tech removes a little depth, but it's nowhere near that extreme.

 

[Demon_machinE]

I blame Dylan Tnga for this.

If he hadn't spazzed out all the time and called people "****ing scrubs", then tournament players wouldn't be lumped together with tournytards and you wouldn't be sitting here trying to justify engine exploits. Oh, and the raids too.

The people he called scrubs were using terms like ''cheap'' and johning in every way immaginable. I dare you to find one post where dylan flamed a casual player who wasn't a scrub.

Don't know what scrub means? Look it up. Its a valid term and its so ****ing applicable to the brawl section its unbelievable.

These scrubs would get called scrubs by any tournament player, please stop being lazy with the whole Dylan_Tnga scapegoat thing, it's 4chans fault, not his.

We don't know if wavedashing is in or out till tomorrow. Gimpyfish will tell us.

I honnestly can't believe this game is replacing melee. Everything about smash disgusts me now.

I mean a new game, fine. But does that merit the death of the old tournament scene for a great game (melee) apparantly, because everyone I talk to says they're quitting melee for brawl. At this rate the only people thatll be left playing melee will be me dylan and my sister, and George.

A sad day for my crew indeed, who loved and cherished melee. Well, it'll be sad tomorrow when gimpyfish tells us just how bad brawl is, which of course will be interpreted as good by most of you since you have no clue how to play smash, at all.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I used to like Shail Hulud.

on topic: lol, I hadn't thought of it like that.

Why don't you like me anymore?

Or are you talking about the hardcore band? My name is in reference to Dune, not the band...

But yeah, a lot of competitive players can't pivot. Wavedashing was a much easier solution than pivoting and had the same basic functionality (spacing), so few characters in Melee really benefited from pivoting, particularly because their wavedashes tended to be longer than their dashes. The main exception would be Marth, but still, most Marth players don't pivot.

The loss of wavedashing is still sad because I am a very technical player and a Fox main...I wouldn't be interested in playing Fox without all the stupid flashy shine turn arounds etc. That's why we play, right? I also second ICs, who are going to be trash without a wavedash. But I'll find a new main, or can go back to Captain Falcon.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I blame Dylan_Tnga for communism.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

The people he called scrubs were using terms like ''cheap'' and johning in every way immaginable. I dare you to find one post where dylan flamed a casual player who wasn't a scrub.

Don't know what scrub means? Look it up. Its a valid term and its so ****ing applicable to the brawl section its unbelievable.

These scrubs would get called scrubs by any tournament player, please stop being lazy with the whole Dylan_Tnga scapegoat thing, it's 4chans fault, not his.

We don't know if wavedashing is in or out till tomorrow. Gimpyfish will tell us.

I honnestly can't believe this game is replacing melee. Everything about smash disgusts me now.

I mean a new game, fine. But does that merit the death of the old tournament scene for a great game (melee) apparantly, because everyone I talk to says they're quitting melee for brawl. At this rate the only people thatll be left playing melee will be me dylan and my sister, and George.

A sad day for my crew indeed, who loved and cherished melee. Well, it'll be sad tomorrow when gimpyfish tells us just how bad brawl is, which of course will be interpreted as good by most of you since you have no clue how to play smash, at all.

You really need to stop breaking out the oil for Dylan. Dylan got exactly what he deserved. If you're too blind to see that, then I pity you. Besides if Dylan is nearly as good as he says he is, wave dashing will NOT matter to him or to you. You, with the skills you and him state you have, will no doubt eventually find a better technique to take scrubs out with anyways, so why does it matter? Don't the real pros adapt to new techniques anyways?

 

[Crispy4001]

Wavedashing was fun and added an extra bit of depth to the game. Those are two good reasons to be disappointed if indeed it has been removed.

This is really not an issue of whether or not the best smash players will play well without it (which they will). It's about loosing a technique that for many people heightened their enjoyment of competitive play.

 

[T Bird]

Brawl simply

Part of what makes Melee so much more respectably competitive than the original is the speed of the game, in fact most of it is the speed. Not just faster frame rates, but faster movement and wavedashing is an integral part of that. I agree the game COULD still be good, but it doesn't have to be just 'cause it's smash, at least not competitively. Wave dashing and l-canceling make the game faster, it's not that you need to do them in order to win, cause everyone eventually will be able to do them, it's the speed it adds. I can wave dash and I can l-cancel, but my reaction time isn't that great, but slow down the game enough and I will be able to play my more practiced friends. Why?
Because mind games are easier to see through when they take twice as long to pull off and I know meta game, I just can't react fast enough. Understanding your opponents play style is less important as the game slows down.
To you who says melee was not balanced with wd in mind I would like to point out that melee was not balanced, with anything in mind, as far as I can tell. Maybe Pichu PWNZERS in coin matches, I don't know, but I do know in regular matches taking WDing out of the game would cause the game to be OMFG$)(*%)$ broken. Wavedashing made more characters viable than it did place characters so high above others as to be broken.
Because this game is created for everyone, and because most people use all stages and items the game will most likely have characters balanced for low level item play, meaning the game won't be any more balanced than melee. Oh well.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Why don't you like me anymore?

Or are you talking about the hardcore band? My name is in reference to Dune, not the band...

But yeah, a lot of competitive players can't pivot. Wavedashing was a much easier solution than pivoting and had the same basic functionality (spacing), so few characters in Melee really benefited from pivoting, particularly because their wavedashes tended to be longer than their dashes. The main exception would be Marth, but still, most Marth players don't pivot.

The loss of wavedashing is still sad because I am a very technical player and a Fox main...I wouldn't be interested in playing Fox without all the stupid flashy shine turn arounds etc. That's why we play, right? I also second ICs, who are going to be trash without a wavedash. But I'll find a new main, or can go back to Captain Falcon.

You dont actually believe this **** do you shai?

Come on, wait till gimpyfish plays it. Dont listen to IGN or this ****ing noob.

 

[FrostByte]

The punishment may not be there because of the possibility of removed advanced techs? That doesn't even make sense. Yes, removing an advanced tech removes a little depth, but it's nowhere near that extreme.

Let me give some examples as a Marth main.

I predict that a Samus will Wavedash backwards. I proceed to dash attack. Cannot be done without WD.

I predict a Falcon will Stomp on me from above. Due to the high shieldstun, I decide to lightshield, adding more stun, increasing the chance of him missing his l-cancel. I collect my grab. Can't be done without L-cancel or lightshield.

Falco is SHL-ing to approach. I powershield when he gets close and claim my grab, which could lead to death. Can't be done without powershield.

 

[Mama]

Well Frostbyte, look at a game like Streetfighter 3. That game doesn't have any crazy techniques, just attacks, specials, grabs, and blocks. And parrys. But it's still a competitive game. Sides, this gives us new techniques while removing an old one, it isn't just getting rid of everthing and giving nothing back.

Actually it is chock full of techniques. the parry is one of the biggest. It takes a lot of practice to master. Melee is an amateur when it comes to techniques if you compare it to a fighting game like Street Fighter or most other big fighting game franchises. And yes if anything Brawl would just shed one small technique that will probably have 0 effect and give us loads more things to mess with.

 

[BentoBox]

Yes, we can play without it. That's totally a good reason to take out a technique that adds movement options and depth to the game.

We can also live without clothes, cars, or currency.

Sakurai and the devs know about wavedashing. What they don't know is that a bunch of kids are willing to commit suicide if they don't keep it the same way in brawl. =]

 

[pablovirus]

Yeah, wavedashing was fun and only helped when used CORRECTLY.
I think instead of removing it they could give each character a different wavedash distance according to their needs... (i mean, they had enough time to think about it and alter the friction of each character wether it was necesary for his/her WD to be a little better to balance things...)
But removing it feels so.. wrong =(

 

[BentoBox]

Spoiled children taking everything for granted!

 

[Pookiez]

Actually it is chock full of techniques. the parry is one of the biggest. It takes a lot of practice to master. Melee is an amateur when it comes to techniques if you compare it to a fighting game like Street Fighter or most other big fighting game franchises. And yes if anything Brawl would just shed one small technique that will probably have 0 effect and give us loads more things to mess with.

watch them remove anything that might have slipped through them w/ content updates >_>

 

[BDawgPHD]

I blame Dylan Tnga for this.

If he hadn't spazzed out all the time and called people "****ing scrubs", then tournament players wouldn't be lumped together with tournytards and you wouldn't be sitting here trying to justify engine exploits. Oh, and the raids too.

Oh man, your face needs to take some smart pills to compensate for the fact that you're full of dumb and suck. By the way, what's a tournytard? Does it hurt?

Dylan Tnga might not have mercy for people who are wrong, but he's absolutely right. Some people seriously don't understand that "if it's in the game, ****ing use it". People have proven that wavedashing is just another strategy, and that it doesn't have any adverse effect on the balance of the game whatsoever. In fact, it adds a new dimension to the game that allows for less predictability, among other things, which is a very big step. Now, just like any other technique, if used improperly, it can be predictable and even useless. So it's not an automatic KO machine, even when used at its maximum efficiency. Saying wavedashing is cheap is like saying Marth's forward smash is cheap, and if you say that Marth's fsmash is cheap, you need to get off smashboards and play in traffic, because you're hopeless. My point is, that Dylan is right in thinking that people are *******es for wanting to change a game engine because they can't adapt to it.

By the way, do you know the definition of "exploit"? If you did, you'd realize that an engine exploit could be anything from wavedashing to spot-dodging to shielding to dropping through platforms to jumping out of your shield to double jumping to attacking and to basically do anything that can directly cause you to move closer to your final goal (which is usually to kill someone). So yea, we all use engine exploits, and if you don't, then you're full of nub and suck.

 

[Demon_machinE]

You really need to stop breaking out the oil for Dylan. Dylan got exactly what he deserved. If you're too blind to see that, then I pity you. Besides if Dylan is nearly as good as he says he is, wave dashing will NOT matter to him or to you. You, with the skills you and him state you have, will no doubt eventually find a better technique to take scrubs out with anyways, so why does it matter? Don't the real pros adapt to new techniques anyways?

When did dylan ever say he was good at melee? Thats the whole point, both me and him JUST got good, as in good enough to COMPETE without being 4 stocked every match by the power ranking dudes.

We put two years into melee, and for what now? No more tournaments ever. Excuse me if that pisses the living **** out of me, im suprised Im among the only ones that are pissed about this.

And incase you haven't notice, brawl even if hypothetically it has wavedashing, itd still ****ing suck.

LOOK AT IT. just LOOK at brawl. Tell me its not a simplified, wii'd out, nubbed out ****tier version of melee with 50x the flash and 50 times less gameplay.

Automatic this, automatic that, gliding, moves that leave behind recovery items and springs, zamus is a ****ing item, and who the hell knows whether or not the smash ball can be turned on or off, or if it even will be in tournaments.

Melee is dead, but I'll keep playing it with the only 2 people I have left to play it with. I step out of the competitive smash scene and into the casual scene, and it bothers me. But at the root of it all, at least I'm still going to have someone to play my FAVORITE game with, and not some watered down **** imitation that has you all brainwashed.

 

[Evilagram]

The video proves nothing.

For those who can't see, The diddy kong is DIing (directional influencing) to the right, meaning the player should be holding right on his joystick/D-pad. However the effects noted are a lot less overt than in melee. In melee diddy kong would have flown a lot further to the right.

This suggests one of two things.

1. DIs have incredibly reduced power in the new game. and you're correct or . . .

2. The movement to the right was due to previous influence from having jumped into the air. (ie. he jumped, started moving to the right and let go of the control then with no button pressed he did and air dodge, or something else occurred, causing him to start that animation.)

Based upon other videos of gameplay the second theory is holding more merit and yours is holding none.



I have a connection in real life who has had access to a beta version of the game (by the way, for those worried, sonic isn't overpowered.) I'm not certain how soon I'll be able to get results, but I should be able to get information on the validity of this within anywhere from a day to a week, possibly more, but definitely before the launch of the game.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Hey everyone.

You'd think I'd write something, but I'm not going to.

I hate you.

 

[chkenparm]

NO WD! Smash is ruined forever, no one should buy it. If you can't abuse a physics engine then the whole game is teh suck. Everyone should boycot the game because the game is only for Johns, scrubs, and noobs now. What a crappy game, I can't believe how bad it's going to be now. At least there's still edgehogging, I can still be cheesy and call myself a pro, but what's the point, my life is over without wavedash. Sakurai should just cancel the whole project, he's a jerk. waaaaaaaah.

 

[FrostByte]

Heh, I can imagine them giving out secret characters and costumes when you decide to give up an adv tech.

Item: Peach-Wedding gown
Description: Make the world feel the wrath of your Downsmash!
Cost: L-cancel

You'll be able to buy it back off the wii shop channel for >9000 wii points.

 

[Evilagram]

Hey everyone.

You'd think I'd write something, but I'm not going to.

I hate you.

Aaaaaaaw! We utterly despise you also!

 

[Pookiez]

chken, your cheesy sarcastic approach isn't any better than the people whom you are trying to mock.

 

[Eaode]

Hey everyone.

You'd think I'd write something, but I'm not going to.

I hate you.

OH MY GOD that was mindgames. I saw "Last post by Dylan_Tnga" and I was like "OH **** something's about to go down!!!!"

 

[sHy)(gUy]

When did dylan ever say he was good at melee? Thats the whole point, both me and him JUST got good, as in good enough to COMPETE without being 4 stocked every match by the power ranking dudes.

We put two years into melee, and for what now? No more tournaments ever. Excuse me if that pisses the living **** out of me, im suprised Im among the only ones that are pissed about this.

And incase you haven't notice, brawl even if hypothetically it has wavedashing, itd still ****ing suck.

LOOK AT IT. just LOOK at brawl. Tell me its not a simplified, wii'd out, nubbed out ****tier version of melee with 50x the flash and 50 times less gameplay.

Automatic this, automatic that, gliding, moves that leave behind recovery items and springs, zamus is a ****ing item, and who the hell knows whether or not the smash ball can be turned on or off, or if it even will be in tournaments.

Melee is dead, but I'll keep playing it with the only 2 people I have left to play it with. I step out of the competitive smash scene and into the casual scene, and it bothers me. But at the root of it all, at least I'm still going to have someone to play my FAVORITE game with, and not some watered down **** imitation that has you all brainwashed.

Dont get mad at the fact there coming out with a new smash game and it doesnt look up to your standards. I mean at least wait till you play it before you bash it. Melee is still gonna be played widely across the world, its not like any one is taking it away from you. Melee will never die no matter how good brawl is.....

 

[Kryptonite X]

You dont actually believe this **** do you shai?

Come on, wait till gimpyfish plays it. Dont listen to IGN or this ****ing noob.

When did dylan ever say he was good at melee? Thats the whole point, both me and him JUST got good, as in good enough to COMPETE without being 4 stocked every match by the power ranking dudes.

We put two years into melee, and for what now? No more tournaments ever. Excuse me if that pisses the living **** out of me, im suprised Im among the only ones that are pissed about this.

And incase you haven't notice, brawl even if hypothetically it has wavedashing, itd still ****ing suck.

LOOK AT IT. just LOOK at brawl. Tell me its not a simplified, wii'd out, nubbed out ****tier version of melee with 50x the flash and 50 times less gameplay.

Automatic this, automatic that, gliding, moves that leave behind recovery items and springs, zamus is a ****ing item, and who the hell knows whether or not the smash ball can be turned on or off, or if it even will be in tournaments.

Melee is dead, but I'll keep playing it with the only 2 people I have left to play it with. I step out of the competitive smash scene and into the casual scene, and it bothers me. But at the root of it all, at least I'm still going to have someone to play my FAVORITE game with, and not some watered down **** imitation that has you all brainwashed.

Stage 2: Anger


Just let go dude, I don't see how the promise of a fresh new meta doesn't excite anyone.

Why people want to keep the same boring status quo surprises the crap out of me.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Aaaaaaaw! We utterly despise you also!

No you don't. Everything Im known for is a lie, the only thing consistent with my reputation is that I hate brawl.

I hate brawl because I love melee. Maybe a little too much but when it comes to melee, I'm about as far from a tourneytard as you can get.

To anyone that still plays melee : I will play you items on, items off, any stage, any character, any setting, but I dislike handicaps for obvious reasons.

I love melee, and it's dying. This makes me extremly sad since melee is hands down my favorite game, and I expressed my sadness in anger (10 months ago now, and counting. What a memory you guys have!) which was a mistake.

As for wavedashing, lol I used to care but I don't anymore. Brawl will just suck even more without it but even wavedashing cant save it.

Brawl's tournament scene will replace melee's. This is why brawl sucks to me.

Wavedashing? Who cares. My favorite game is being destroyed.

Why people want to keep the same boring status quo surprises the crap out of me.

Can you beat mew2king? That's why. 98% of the smash training has many many many more years of training to go before they are actually even scratching the surface of melee's TRUE potential.

I've been working at it for two years, and Im still probably only playing 75 perecent of the true game.

 

[Dan-E]

what the eff am I supposed to do if I've used up my second jump and am heading down right towards Ike charging up a smash??? momentum airdodge = lose. unless they reduce the lag time on certain recovery moves by a LOT then this is going to force players to go under the stage to use their upB. this limits recovery mindgames so much.

auto L cancels, auto sweetspotting, and now this...

 

[BentoBox]

Cry more, nobody gives a **** if your life revolves around a game. This is as bad as people believing in the value of e-credentials. Go out.