Wasted Smash Bros. Moveset Potential

[Perkilator]

In your opinion, what is wasted potential in Smash Bros. when it comes specifically to a character’s moveset? Not the general gameplay or other content, just a playable character’s moveset.

The first thing that comes to my mind (that people haven’t said already) is Greninja’s Substitute. Greninja’s pretty fun otherwise but Substitute just being another counter is lazy. A more creative way they could’ve implemented Substitute into Greninja’s moveset is to have Greninja throw the Pokémon Doll onto the stage, then pressing down and B again would have Greninja appear where the doll is; think of it like Donatello’s Smoke Bomb is NASB 2.

 

[fogbadge]

Off the top of my head Sora and Joker. Now Sora was at least likely due to being at the end of development but Joker feels oddly unflashy for him. They both have plenty of cool moves but it feels like they went with the most basic

 

[Quillion]

Zelda outright losing her light arrows instead of reworking them into her base moveset.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I feel like Mega Man's moveset leans way too far into the "accuracy" element to the point where he has little to no personality and his moveset feels weird in kind of a bad way, leading to basically nobody playing him. If his "accuracy" schtick were to a similar degree to, say, Simon (similar looks and animations but with plenty of personality and some unique elements), I think it could work - think akin to Marvel vs. Capcom! But... the way he is at the moment, he ironically feels like an emotionless robot - which is literally the antithesis to his actual character.

 

[UserKev]

F.L.U.D.D is a disservice in Mario's moveset, not the actual character himself. Pls give Mario his Smash 64 Tornado spin back.

Pikachu needs iron tail. Wario should have his Wario Land moveset.

 

[Quillion]

F.L.U.D.D is a disservice in Mario's moveset, not the actual character himself. Pls give Mario his Smash 64 Tornado spin back.

Pikachu needs iron tail. Wario should have his Wario Land moveset.

Wario's Wario Land moveset amounts to a shoulder tackle and that's it, and that's in Smash already (after it disappeared for a game). There is NOTHING that Wario Land can fill up that the "Ware" Wario already has.

 

[fogbadge]

Wario's Wario Land moveset amounts to a shoulder tackle and that's it, and that's in Smash already (after it disappeared for a game). There is NOTHING that Wario Land can fill up that the "Ware" Wario already has.

have you actually played the land games?

 

[Perkilator]

Another one I just thought of was Little Mac; I’ve already shared TKOWL’s revamp of Mac’s aerials but I was also thinking that his counter should’ve been a perfect implementation of the Stars from the NES and Wii games; every successful counter would earn you a Star, which would change your neutral special depending on how many you have.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Not necessarily outright moveset potential, but I feel like not giving Sheik the Goddess Harp as a taunt is a big missed opportunity. Sure, if you were only to give them one song, I reckon Zelda's Lullaby is the obvious candidate (to save on development), but it'd also be fun to give them different songs depending on the context. (For instance, the Song of Time when up against a Link, the Requiem of Spirit when on Gerudo Valley, etc.)

That aside, I do also think it'd be nice if Young Link had a Fairy Ocarina taunt in the same vein? Given he's pretty obviously based specifically on OoT as opposed to MM, it'd make more sense than the actual Ocarina of Time. That said, I think his Lon Lon Milk taunt is really fun, so I wouldn't say it's as big an issue of missed potential as Sheik having a harp taunt would be.

 

[Perkilator]

Not necessarily outright moveset potential, but I feel like not giving Sheik the Goddess Harp as a taunt is a big missed opportunity. Sure, if you were only to give them one song, I reckon Zelda's Lullaby is the obvious candidate (to save on development), but it'd also be fun to give them different songs depending on the context. (For instance, the Song of Time when up against a Link, the Requiem of Spirit when on Gerudo Valley, etc.)

I'll do you one better: a Goddess Harp medley with the different Warp songs should've been Sheik's Final Smash.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I'll do you one better: a Goddess Harp medley with the different Warp songs should've been Sheik's Final Smash.

See, on the one hand, this would be incredibly cool visually - but on the other hand, I don't really think it'd be well-suited to Smash to represent the Goddess Harp as an outright offensive tool (given, if memory serves, the only time that's ever happened was in Hyrule Warriors - which was very cool, but also kind of its own distinct thing.) Admittedly, I say this whilst being on the fence about Sheik's actual Final Smash - I think it looks pretty cool and certainly gets the Sheikah idea across, but it's not really a reference to anything (even if I don't think it should have to be a reference to anything; see my post on Mega Man.)

I mainly bring up the idea for a taunt because Sheik doesn't really... have much to work with? So it feels like a more obvious and logical move to have it as a taunt given it's one of the only things they're specifically known for actually doing as opposed to using it in a way it was never actually intended to be used and only got adapted to in one spinoff game (even if that was pretty cool.) Though, admittedly that's just my own take - I can totally see the appeal!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Diddy Kong always felt like a character that was halfway there, with the Peanut Gun and Jet Pack feeling like worthy inclusions from DK64. The Monkey Flip and Banana Peel though even beyond not feeling all that satisfying, always reeked of generic monkey moves rather than anything from the Country series, which could have easily filled out the reset of his special moves. Animal Buddies are easy elements to pull from, but given I'd prefer to save that for Dixie, even just basic stuff like a minecart/skull head for a Forward Special and then for the down special Diddy pulling out a barrel that can be uniquely used would have gone a long way. You adjust both to fit Diddy's play style; just make him a character that's in the neighborhood of feeing like he came from DK games.

 

[Laniv]

Peach could have really leaned into the heart motifs for her normals and neutral B

 

[UserKev]

I forgot to mention another wasted potential regarding Mario. Mario desperately need his Ground Pound from Mario 64. It works perfectly for his Down B and would be excellent reliability.

 

[FazDude]

Why doesn’t Peach, a character with emphasis on air mobility, have a Down B that works in the air?

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

Wario's Wario Land moveset amounts to a shoulder tackle and that's it, and that's in Smash already (after it disappeared for a game). There is NOTHING that Wario Land can fill up that the "Ware" Wario already has.

I think it’s maybe a little too far to say there’s nothing Wario Land can add to his moveset but I definitely agree there’s really not much Wario Land content that needs to be in his moveset. There’s stuff like transformations or his charged shoulder bashes that could be cool but having them all in his moveset feels much less cohesive and fitting of his real personality than what he already has.

 

[cashregister9]

Why doesn't Steve use a bow?

This is a minor one in the whole grand scheme of things but that one really bothers me for some reason.

 

[Mamboo07]

There's so much potential involving Kirby's moveset and it doesn't show his copy abilities.

 

[Quillion]

There's so much potential involving Kirby's moveset and it doesn't show his copy abilities.

Given that Mega Man's moveset is an incoherent jumble of ideas as stated by KneeOfJustice99 , perhaps it's for the best that Kirby is the way he is now.

 

[TheLastMaverickHunter]

I feel like Mega Man's moveset leans way too far into the "accuracy" element to the point where he has little to no personality and his moveset feels weird in kind of a bad way, leading to basically nobody playing him. If his "accuracy" schtick were to a similar degree to, say, Simon (similar looks and animations but with plenty of personality and some unique elements), I think it could work - think akin to Marvel vs. Capcom! But... the way he is at the moment, he ironically feels like an emotionless robot - which is literally the antithesis to his actual character.

This ^
With how many weapons they had to pick from, I feel like it's a waste having 3/4 of his Specials be from the same game.

 

[Quillion]

This ^
With how many weapons they had to pick from, I feel like it's a waste having 3/4 of his Specials be from the same game.

I mean, if they're going to pick any, might as well pick the ones from the most iconic game that set the standard for future ones that largely act the same.

If anything, his problem is that he has so many ideas for specials that the team tried to shoehorn them into his normals instead of picking and choosing the best representatives.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Most of Mario's moves are good and all for an all-round character, I'd argue basically none of his normals should be changed... but not only are Cape and F.L.U.D.D. weird picks from a theming standpoint, they're not very intuitive for newcomers to the series that are just learning the controls.

I'd replace Cape with the Dive tackle from Mario's 3D outings to give him a little more horizontal burst mobility, and Down-B with a ground pound. I think they'd be more intuitive for beginners too; "oh, side + B makes him do an attack that jumps forward! down + B makes him go down!", etc. I think Mario being a character that's very expressive with his movement would be very fun and thematically appropriate.

I'd also replace Super Jump Punch with the Galaxy Spin, which would function like a hearty 3rd jump + attack and it would also reflect projectiles, so Cape's functionality is still there in spirit.

 

[Louie G.]

There's so much potential involving Kirby's moveset and it doesn't show his copy abilities.

I'm not gonna lie, I really don't agree with this. I think Kirby's moveset is good - Fighter and Suplex make up the majority of his normals, which is fitting. We have a few other copy abilities here and there, but I feel like piling them on to make him a Mega Man styled reference machine really weakens the core element of the character... his Copy Ability. What's so special about getting another fighter's power if he already has a ton of crazy fire powers, needles sticking out of his head, a sword, a magic wand etc etc. Mega Man has access to all of these after defeating an opponent and can switch at will. Kirby doesn't.

I'm open to a few more but I don't think Kirby's moveset potential is being wasted, I just believe he is simple by design to make his Neutral B the centerpiece of the character. And I do think people neglect the fact that his moveset is so heavily based off two copy abilities already, just more standard punchy kicky ones. I think his changes ought to be more in respect to how he feels to play, rather than overhauling his kit.

There is one strange omission though, and that's his slide. He has literally had it since day one, as one of the only things he can do without a copy ability, and other characters have received similar down tilts. Granted these kind of attacks did not exist until Smash 4, but now that they do there's really no excuse. I also think they could be flexible with his Side B but I dunno what I would change it to yet. I guess this one is okay.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

There's so much potential involving Kirby's moveset and it doesn't show his copy abilities.

Personally, I think the whole "Copy Abilities as part of the moveset" thing that people often bring up for Kirby... would probably work better for Gooey if he were ever included.

Kirby having a simplistic overall design makes a lot of sense given the design language of his series and whatnot, and aside from a few bits and pieces here (like the slide Louie G. suggested, or maybe giving Final Cutter its projectile back), Kirby's design does a pretty decent job at representing the general vibe for the series as well as his abilities (especially his Neutral B, which is a pretty massive part of his character overall).

Plus, Gooey does have prescedent for representing Copy Abilities from the actual Kirby series due to him being able to perform them, and being partially made out of Dark Matter, it also kind of makes more sense visually for him to, say, suddenly sprout needles from his body for a down smash compared to Kirby doing it. (Though I guess they're both kind of just blobs anyway.)

To be clear, I don't necessarily think Gooey is "essential" or anything like that, but Kirby's current design does a great job at being... Kirby?, and overcomplicating his moveset with references and in-series Copy Abilities would very quickly run the risk of making him feel kind of bloated and a bit too all-encompassing.

 

[Mamboo07]

Given that Mega Man's moveset is an incoherent jumble of ideas as stated by KneeOfJustice99 , perhaps it's for the best that Kirby is the way he is now.

I'm not gonna lie, I really don't agree with this. I think Kirby's moveset is good - Fighter and Suplex make up the majority of his normals, which is fitting. We have a few other copy abilities here and there, but I feel like piling them on to make him a Mega Man styled reference machine really weakens the core element of the character... his Copy Ability. What's so special about getting another fighter's power if he already has a ton of crazy fire powers, needles sticking out of his head, a sword, a magic wand etc etc. Mega Man has access to all of these after defeating an opponent and can switch at will. Kirby doesn't.

I'm open to a few more but I don't think Kirby's moveset potential is being wasted, I just believe he is simple by design to make his Neutral B the centerpiece of the character. And I do think people neglect the fact that his moveset is so heavily based off two copy abilities already, just more standard punchy kicky ones. I think his changes ought to be more in respect to how he feels to play, rather than overhauling his kit.

There is one strange omission though, and that's his slide. He has literally had it since day one, as one of the only things he can do without a copy ability, and other characters have received similar down tilts. Granted these kind of attacks did not exist until Smash 4, but now that they do there's really no excuse. I also think they could be flexible with his Side B but I dunno what I would change it to yet. I guess this one is okay.

Personally, I think the whole "Copy Abilities as part of the moveset" thing that people often bring up for Kirby... would probably work better for Gooey if he were ever included.

Kirby having a simplistic overall design makes a lot of sense given the design language of his series and whatnot, and aside from a few bits and pieces here (like the slide Louie G. suggested, or maybe giving Final Cutter its projectile back), Kirby's design does a pretty decent job at representing the general vibe for the series as well as his abilities (especially his Neutral B, which is a pretty massive part of his character overall).

Plus, Gooey does have prescedent for representing Copy Abilities from the actual Kirby series due to him being able to perform them, and being partially made out of Dark Matter, it also kind of makes more sense visually for him to, say, suddenly sprout needles from his body for a down smash compared to Kirby doing it. (Though I guess they're both kind of just blobs anyway.)

To be clear, I don't necessarily think Gooey is "essential" or anything like that, but Kirby's current design does a great job at being... Kirby?, and overcomplicating his moveset with references and in-series Copy Abilities would very quickly run the risk of making him feel kind of bloated and a bit too all-encompassing.

The problem isn't that his moveset doesn't represent what he does in his games.

It's the fact that they went about doing so in the most boring way possible.

Kirby has so many different weapons and powers at his disposal.

...You know, just forget about it... you're kind of right.
(People who redesign Smash movesets kind of clog it with reference cramming)

 

[BonafideFella]

if wario’s moveset was designed around the warioware bomb , instead of the waft - i’d likely appreciate it much more

 

[Louie G.]

if wario’s moveset was designed around the warioware bomb , instead of the waft - i’d likely appreciate it much more

I actually absolutely love this idea, it's crossed my mind before too.

It might not be exactly the way you're thinking, but if anyone has ever played Darkstalkers or MVC3 - Hsien-Ko has a bomb she can toss out with a set detonation time. It can be cartoonishly whacked around and then when it hits 0 it explodes. I feel like this kind of tool on Wario would like... drastically change his playstyle, but I love the thought of having a tool like that in Smash that not only applies some interesting stage pressure but also creates a minigame in itself mid-match, where you may find yourself whacking a bomb back and forth before time runs out.

Alternatively, would be pretty interesting if the Waft itself came up on a timer, and Wario had a set amount of time to use it before it expires like a minigame. Kinda hard to retroactively apply something like that when it's otherwise been very forgiving and even carries over into other stocks, but maybe a shorter timer and a slightly weaker hit on top of this new mechanic would balance it out. Just thinking out loud at this point.

 

[Perkilator]

I actually love the idea of a 10-second Wario Bomb being Wario’s down special and now I’m sad that it isn’t.

As for Kirby, the most egregious example of wasted potential is with how Kirby’s “inhale then spit out” mechanic was translated. In the words of TV Tropes (under YMMV, Underused Game Mechanic):

“On paper, this gives Kirby an option against projectiles, something he's struggled with since Melee. In practice, it falls completely flat. Unlike Dedede's Inhale, which just spits the projectile back towards the opponent, Kirby can only actually spit out a star if the projectile was powerful enough - "powerful enough" generally means "fully-charged Charge Shots or Snake missiles." Against anything weaker, a.k.a. the attacks opponents will actually try to camp you with, Kirby is forced to swallow it, which heals 1% and leaves Kirby in a laggy animation, letting him get hit by another projectile or, worse, the opponent's combos. If anything, the newly-added ability only puts Kirby in a worse spot most of the time he uses it, meaning most players will rarely use it and leaving Kirby just as bad against projectiles.”

Why Sakurai didn’t just have Kirby only spit out physical projectiles is honestly beyond me. He’s the one who came up with the idea of Kirby inhaling things and spitting them out even back in 1992, so you’d think this is the most obvious thing to translate from the series that he created.

 

[BonafideFella]

I actually absolutely love this idea, it's crossed my mind before too.

It might not be exactly the way you're thinking, but if anyone has ever played Darkstalkers or MVC3 - Hsien-Ko has a bomb she can toss out with a set detonation time. It can be cartoonishly whacked around and then when it hits 0 it explodes. I feel like this kind of tool on Wario would like... drastically change his playstyle, but I love the thought of having a tool like that in Smash that not only applies some interesting stage pressure but also creates a minigame in itself mid-match, where you may find yourself whacking a bomb back and forth before time runs out.

Alternatively, would be pretty interesting if the Waft itself came up on a timer, and Wario had a set amount of time to use it before it expires like a minigame. Kinda hard to retroactively apply something like that when it's otherwise been very forgiving and even carries over into other stocks, but maybe a shorter timer and a slightly weaker hit on top of this new mechanic would balance it out. Just thinking out loud at this point.

no , absolutely! it’d recontextualize wario’s combo-heavy playstyle in a really fascinating way , i was thinking the bomb would function like the waft except it has a set detonation time either way - that’d deal recoil! plays with both a crucial element of warioware and wario’s ability in the “wario land” series to survive exaggeratedly bizarre punishment

i love your idea though , that kind of hot potato would rlly emphasize wario’s aerial mobility (!!)

 

[Kirbeh]

no , absolutely! it’d recontextualize wario’s combo-heavy playstyle in a really fascinating way , i was thinking the bomb would function like the waft except it has a set detonation time either way - that’d deal recoil! plays with both a crucial element of warioware and wario’s ability in the “wario land” series to survive exaggeratedly bizarre punishment

i love your idea though , that kind of hot potato would rlly emphasize wario’s aerial mobility (!!)

Honestly I really like the idea for a hot potato Wario Bomb. I think it fits well with a lot of the moves he already has like swatting it away with f-tilt or poking it with down tilt.

Maybe it could even have a different use if you eat it with Chomp.

One possibility perhaps being to hold in in his mouth with Chomp and then being able to spit back out as a combo ender. All the while you have to try and make sure you spit out on time to maximize damage with the explosion and avoid holding for too long lest it explodes on Wario instead.

 

[MasterCheef]

I would much rather Palutena have very low airspeed ( think .55 = waay lowest in game )& base run speed of 1.70 with
Angelic missile as her side special with diagonal options &
her up special be Jump Glide,
Her Down special would be Super speed
Her neutral special would be explosive flame

 

[Gorgonzales]

I would much rather Palutena have very low airspeed ( think .55 = waay lowest in game )& base run speed of 1.70 with
Angelic missile as her side special with diagonal options &
her up special be Jump Glide,
Her Down special would be Super speed
Her neutral special would be explosive flame

They really gave her the most boring options for all of her special moves huh

 

[Kirbeh]

Gotta be honest, while some reworks on Palutena would be nice, Angelic Missile and Super Speed are probably among my least favorite moves from her pool of options.

I'd personally like to see some more new options for her but in regards to old custom moves specifically, I'd like to see Celestial Firework as a damage dealing taunt and Heavenly Light back as I like the idea of an AOE move. Also turn Reflect Barrier into more of an Aegis Reflector type of move.

 

[Perkilator]

New Power Suit and Dread abilities aside, you know what I’d like to see with Samus next game? Swapping between the Power Suit and Zero Suit on the fly with Shield + B.

 

[Kirbeh]

New Power Suit and Dread abilities aside, you know what I’d like to see with Samus next game? Swapping between the Power Suit and Zero Suit on the fly with Shield + B.

So essentially just turning her into a Zelda/Sheik situation?

Would this include reworks to both to give some synergy/reason to swap or is it leaving the two relatively untouched?

 

[Perkilator]

So essentially just turning her in a Zelda/Sheik situation?

Would this include reworks to both to give some synergy/reason to swap or is it leaving the two relatively untouched?

Yeah, they'd have to be reworked significantly to make the swapping more seamless and encourage it.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah, they'd have to be reworked significantly to make the swapping more seamless and encourage it.

They could always make Samus lose the suit if she's dealt a strong hit and force you to recover abilities one by one in true Metroid fashion.

Joking aside, how do you feel about the whip and rocket boots? Should they be retained or replaced?

Granted, she doesn't have much to work with when down to the Zero Suit which is why those exist in the first place, but given the chance, do you think there are better alternatives for fleshing out her moveset?

 

[Perkilator]

They could always make Samus lose the suit if she's dealt a strong hit and force you to recover abilities one by one in true Metroid fashion.

Joking aside, how do you feel about the whip and rocket boots? Should they be retained or replaced?

Granted, she doesn't have much to work with when down to the Zero Suit which is why those exist in the first place, but given the chance, do you think there are better alternatives for fleshing out her moveset?

That's okay, the whip and rocket boots are A-OK in my books.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

Not really moveset-specific, but I think Steve's general design and vibe - as much as it's funny to have him look like he was literally green-screened out from some actual Minecraft gameplay - would have worked a lot better if it were based on the concept art and promotional materials for Minecraft content. It'd still be a good way of representing the series, but it'd make Steve fit in a little bette visually whilst still being unique overall. Plus, moveset-wise, having that slightly greater range of movement whilst still keeping the sort of angular feel would be a good way to make his attacks more visually obvious, which could perhaps work in his favour (at least a little) when it comes to balancing.

I'll admit I think Steve's complexity means he has a few other more pressing issues, but this is an obvious one that springs to mind, for me at least. (I do see the appeal of his current look, though. Like I said, it is pretty funny.)

 

[FazDude]

Not really moveset-specific, but I think Steve's general design and vibe - as much as it's funny to have him look like he was literally green-screened out from some actual Minecraft gameplay - would have worked a lot better if it were based on the concept art and promotional materials for Minecraft content. It'd still be a good way of representing the series, but it'd make Steve fit in a little bette visually whilst still being unique overall. Plus, moveset-wise, having that slightly greater range of movement whilst still keeping the sort of angular feel would be a good way to make his attacks more visually obvious, which could perhaps work in his favour (at least a little) when it comes to balancing.

I'll admit I think Steve's complexity means he has a few other more pressing issues, but this is an obvious one that springs to mind, for me at least. (I do see the appeal of his current look, though. Like I said, it is pretty funny.)

This Steve render by Smashified is what I'd want to do for Steve - Still captures the nature of Minecraft's visual style and animations while bringing them up to a modern standard (such as layering for things like Steve's clothes). Perfect balance between Minecraft's promo art and its actual graphics.

(Video on the subject by the render's creator.)