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Wario's Match-Ups!
- Thread starter xzx
- Start date
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
I find this matchup pretty easy for wario, a +1 even without grab release and bike, even not thinking about the gimping, wario just has better options and has a better air game than ness. with grab release I say it's a 1.5 (like someone earlier said) or a 2. ness AR to spike doesn't work at all as long as you jam toward the stage, I've done it tons of times. be prepared to tech is you mess up the timing though, as you might need to do that. and then there's silly bike shenanigans, whenever I fight a ness and I knock him out to the point that he may need to PKT, I jumping bike and bounce that thing off the stage while running to ledgegrab. if anything the bike isn't for stealing the bolt, it's for making ness scared/delaying his use of PKT and making it unsafe. then it's just a matter of falling nair or waft or ledgehogging.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
this MU is +2 EASY
doubt ur gona see shaky come in here and talk on his own so i'll text him and see if i can get him to share his input
imo ness's worst three MU in order are
DDD, Mk, Wario
if u take out the shenanigans that marth has on him
doubt ur gona see shaky come in here and talk on his own so i'll text him and see if i can get him to share his input
imo ness's worst three MU in order are
DDD, Mk, Wario
if u take out the shenanigans that marth has on him
Iota: +1/+2
Flame Hyenard: +1
Nido: +1
Croi: +1/+2
Jamwa: +1
Luco: +1
R e d X: +1
xzx: +1
waldorf2007: +2
Sensei Seibrik: +2
Lol, Wario is Ness's third worst MU? How about Marth and G&W? Wario is not any worse for Ness than what G&W and Marth are. And saying this MU is +2 is kinda extreme. Stop overrate Wario's MUs. =P
Flame Hyenard: +1
Nido: +1
Croi: +1/+2
Jamwa: +1
Luco: +1
R e d X: +1
xzx: +1
waldorf2007: +2
Sensei Seibrik: +2
Lol, Wario is Ness's third worst MU? How about Marth and G&W? Wario is not any worse for Ness than what G&W and Marth are. And saying this MU is +2 is kinda extreme. Stop overrate Wario's MUs. =P
Why would G&W beat him badly? I don't see it. :/
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
yeah i dont see that either lol
i just think this mu is stupid cuz we can get free grabs into fsmash and that builds up soooo fast
and we can avoid literally everything he has in the air
i just think this mu is stupid cuz we can get free grabs into fsmash and that builds up soooo fast
and we can avoid literally everything he has in the air
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
I go to wario against GnW lol, I move away from DK for it because wario has more mobility.
yeah and like seibrik said, you can just grabsmash and you can use it as a kill OR as damage. just grab regrabbing grab fsmash like 3 times, and you won't have used clap (so it's perfect as a kill move).
yeah and like seibrik said, you can just grabsmash and you can use it as a kill OR as damage. just grab regrabbing grab fsmash like 3 times, and you won't have used clap (so it's perfect as a kill move).
Lord Chair
Smash Master
He does better at chasing us in the air than like 90% of the cast. Not strictly because he'll end up ****** us all the time but because he doesn't have to commit to anything too odd if he wants to apply bits of pressure and attempts at doing so will net him some sort of an advantage.
Iota: +1/+2
Flame Hyenard: +1
Nido: +1
Croi: +1/+2
Jamwa: +1
Luco: +1
R e d X: +1
xzx: +1
waldorf2007: +2
Sensei Seibrik: +2
(S!C): +1
@TRW: Well, G&W can suck up the PKT1 with his bucket. He can also up-air Ness during the recovery, meaning that Ness will fly up high with the PKT1 still in the same position. I think his nair and bair eliminate his PKT1, as well as other aerials. Also, Ness is so light that he dies from a smash attack around 70-80% I think? Well, I don't know, but for me it feels like G&W is worse for Ness than what Wario is. G&W has dat range too. Marth is definetily worse for Ness than what Wario is.
@Sensei Seibrik: I agree that this MU is more +2 than 0, but it's not so bad that it is +2. =P
Anyway, should we move on to Pokémon Trainer? I think we should include inputs and ratios to all the three Pokémon too. But in the OP I will only list Pokémon Trainer since all three Pokémon can't be separated individually (without hacks). For example: Squirtle +1, Ivysaur +2, Charizard +2 ---> Pokémon Trainer +2. What I mean is that even if (for example) Wario has +1 against all three Pokémon, the Pokémon Trainer MU could still be considered as +2 for Wario.
Without further addition, I want TheReflexWonder to share his inputs and ratios in this MU for obvious reasons and hope he does so. Because this MU is maybe what we have the lowest amount of experience in...
Flame Hyenard: +1
Nido: +1
Croi: +1/+2
Jamwa: +1
Luco: +1
R e d X: +1
xzx: +1
waldorf2007: +2
Sensei Seibrik: +2
(S!C): +1
@TRW: Well, G&W can suck up the PKT1 with his bucket. He can also up-air Ness during the recovery, meaning that Ness will fly up high with the PKT1 still in the same position. I think his nair and bair eliminate his PKT1, as well as other aerials. Also, Ness is so light that he dies from a smash attack around 70-80% I think? Well, I don't know, but for me it feels like G&W is worse for Ness than what Wario is. G&W has dat range too. Marth is definetily worse for Ness than what Wario is.
@Sensei Seibrik: I agree that this MU is more +2 than 0, but it's not so bad that it is +2. =P
Anyway, should we move on to Pokémon Trainer? I think we should include inputs and ratios to all the three Pokémon too. But in the OP I will only list Pokémon Trainer since all three Pokémon can't be separated individually (without hacks). For example: Squirtle +1, Ivysaur +2, Charizard +2 ---> Pokémon Trainer +2. What I mean is that even if (for example) Wario has +1 against all three Pokémon, the Pokémon Trainer MU could still be considered as +2 for Wario.
Without further addition, I want TheReflexWonder to share his inputs and ratios in this MU for obvious reasons and hope he does so. Because this MU is maybe what we have the lowest amount of experience in...
In order for his gimping abilities to matter, G&W has to get Ness offstage, and G&W is awful at approaching most characters. I don't see how G&W would have the advantage on-stage, either, which is most important, especially considering the number of ways Ness can KO.
Ness isn't especially light, and he's definitely not light enough to die to a Smash at 70-80% without mediocre DI.
Wario beats PT really solidly; I'd say it's a strong +2...Perhaps +3 if Wario does everything in his power to pursue fatigue advantage, which is REALLY easy in this matchup.
Bite beats almost all of Squirtle's good spacing tools, and he is not fast enough to adequately punish a whiffed Bite most of the time. Squirtle can compete with Wario in the air, but because of the range issue and Squirtle's need to be precise, spotdodge -> F-Smash bull**** works extremely well. If you feel uncomfortable, airdodge safely and go for occasional grabs, as Squirtle can't adequately punish it. If you get in a bad spot (U-Throw, U-Tilt/U-Air juggles), SDI and do your best to get back to neutral position. Fatigue really screws Squirtle here, too, as he shouldn't be KOing Wario until ~180%, while Waft kills incredibly early.
Against Ivysaur, just move backward and force her to commit to stuff. You shouldn't be hit by anything unless you're overextending yourself or Ivysaur gets a hard read. When you want to go in, your primary option should be standing grabs. Throw Ivysaur up, then go to town. There's not much reason to play the poking game since Wario's defensive options DESTROY Ivysaur. If you have the percent lead, you've basically won the game unless they choose to switch (and consequently get punished for it).
Charizard can't really defend himself well from above (outside of a well-timed U-Smash), so smart D-Air approaches and standard combo stuff on fatties work well here. Again, Charizard can't really do much to give chase, and his standard walling game doesn't work well, because he's only really good at covering the space in front of him. He's incredibly easy to juggle, so take advantage of it.
tl;dr--None of the Pokémon can reliably deal with Wario's camping or with invincibility frames. Airdodge away, spotdodge on the ground, invincibility frames into grab or high-damage options. If you don't feel you have the advantage, return to neutral position, and you'll be in a good spot. U-Throw is low-risk, high-reward in all cases. If you overthink the matchup, you put much more risk on yourself for no good reason. Your mobility and high damage output on individual hits makes it so that PT is under constant pressure all the time.
As an aside, Zero Switching is easily punished by U-Smash, D-Smash, or Bite, so keep them in mind.
Super-easy matchup. You should never feel like you have to think if you play it correctly. Strong +2 or weak +3; I'm leaning toward +3. Wario's mechanics are tailor-made to abuse many of PT's largest issues.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
- I often stay grounded in this MU, if possible.
- Squirtle's F-tilt beats Wario's Bite (I believe a SH F-air can do it as well only if very well spaced), and ends before the end of his spotdodge (Frame 17 vs frame 25). Squirtle's F-tilt is a bit disjointed at the tip, so it's a pretty good move in this matchup considering that Wario hasn't any disjointed. A SH autocanceled N-air is a very good way to beat spotdodges and follow up at low %.
- In the air, it's pretty even if you ask me. They're both really good.
- Hydrograb to the edge will guarantee an U-Smash with the air release, which will kill at ~120% (or angled up F-Smash, or U-air for damage) so it's a pretty good tool in this matchup.
On the other hand, D-throw will kill at ~145% (fresh Squirtle) and ~190% when Squirtle is fatigued.
F-air is safe and awesome so it's probably our best killmove.
- We have some cool tricks with watergun against your bike.
- Our Jab > Your UpB.
- As Reflex said, you should play it defensively. You have the waft, we have the fatigue. But Squirtle is really fast and mobile so you'll have a bit of trouble to do it, we can chase you very well.
- Wario wins this MU because of his power (damage output and killing), but Squirtle can still be troublesome. +1 for you imho (more like +1.5 but meh, this ratio system was chosen for a reason).
- - Ivysaur outranges and outcamps Wario, but you're much more mobile than us.
- We can't deal with your pressure if you don't let us have the stage control.
- If you try to aircamp, we can catch you with an UpB so it's not really the best option imo.
- We have some GR shenaningans on you. For damage, GR to N-air to DJ F-air/U-air, turnaround N-air spike + Bullet Seed, mainly.
- Ivysaur's BS, which is invincible from frames 1 to 3, almost completely negate your N-air combos at most percents. Be careful, you don't want to take 30%.
- Ivysaur will most likely kill with a grab : grab release to U-air is guaranteed and will kill at ~120%. GR to F-Smash (angled up) is also a nice way to kill.
If we can't release you because of a platform, you have to be aware that U-throw will kill you at 175%. Don't get grabbed.
F-air, Dash Attack will both kill at like 140% and are our main other killmoves, as well as an F-Smash if we predict that you'll do a grounded move.
If we predict a spotdodge, our U-Smash will kill you at 80%. Be VERY careful.
- Wario wins the matchup but we can get a lot of damage/a kill with a read. Still, Ivysaur can't handle well such a mobile character. The PT player will probably switch to Charizard to avoid getting gimped + to avoid getting comboed hard with Zard. +2 for you.
- - Use U-air on us a lot. We have a VERY hard time landing against you.
- Don't challenge us on the ground except with a shield/grab. You're way better in the air.
- Your awesome aerial mobility and aerial game in general kind of negates our awesome shield grab. Be careful though, U-Smash is frame 6, has a good hitbox and can be done out of a dash or shield.
- Don't challenge RS, you don't have enough range.
- We can punish your spotdodges very well with N-air, FlameThrower, RockSmash and F-Smash. Avoid doing it too much.
- Bite is good.
- U-Smash and RS will often be staled so we'll have a hard time killing you. But even when staled, they're still really good killmoves.
Without a hard read, D-tilt, B-air and grab come to my mind.
D-Throw will kill you at 190% when Charizard is fresh and 205% when he's fully tired (yeah I know it's really strange, it's like this move almost doesn't care about the fatigue).
U-Throw will kill a bit earlier but unlike D-throw, it'll be staled.
A very frustrating matchup. +2 for you again.
Conclusion :
Quite a difficult matchup for PT, but Wario is not a hard counter. We still have the tools to annoy you, but you definitely win the matchup, since you can force approaches and you'll kill early.
will have to play a very precise and aggressive playstyle in order to win. will play it defensively and you'll have to pressure her after getting in to beat her soundly (you can also play defensively but it's not the best option if you ask me). is between Squirtle and Ivysaur, he'll probably shield a lot and use U-smash to cover your aerial approaches ; he'll be defensive, but not as much as Ivysaur since he's a much more mobile character.Also, as Reflex already said, Bite is one of the safest way to punish zero switching so keep that in mind.
tl;dr : Wario has much more power than PT and Ivysaur/Charizard will have a lot of trouble when trying to land. Juggle them to death.
- +2 Wario
Ivysaur's Up-B take 22 frames to come out. You should NEVER hit a Wario with it who has even a half-decent reaction time. If Wario jumps away, Ivysaur CANNOT DO ANYTHING about it, and Ivysaur can't adequately wall out Wario. It is reasonable to assume that Ivysaur will always be fatigued and will not KO before, like, 155%. Other than a lucky Bullet Seed read, all of Wario's hits do much, much more than anything Ivysaur will land.
I don't understand how that is realistically anything better for Ivysaur than a strong -3. Awful, awful matchup. Ivysaur only deal substantial damage if she can land stuff like hard read Bullet Seed, hard read N-Air, and pivot grabs, all of which only work if Wario is going out of his way to use moves with little range. It's much more likely that invincibility frames will avoid the move, and you'll eat a grab, F-Smash, or Waft.
If you're dealing large amounts of damage as Ivysaur against Wario, Wario is playing the matchup really, really, terribly. Air mobility neuters all of Ivysaur's useful tools, and Wario is the king of aerial mobility.
I don't understand how that is realistically anything better for Ivysaur than a strong -3. Awful, awful matchup. Ivysaur only deal substantial damage if she can land stuff like hard read Bullet Seed, hard read N-Air, and pivot grabs, all of which only work if Wario is going out of his way to use moves with little range. It's much more likely that invincibility frames will avoid the move, and you'll eat a grab, F-Smash, or Waft.
If you're dealing large amounts of damage as Ivysaur against Wario, Wario is playing the matchup really, really, terribly. Air mobility neuters all of Ivysaur's useful tools, and Wario is the king of aerial mobility.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Vine whip can be used :
- If you predict a double jump
- To punish a landing on a platform like Smashville's
- To condition the Wario to be afraid of being at this specific range and airdodge (which can be punished with an U-Smash).
Wario hasn't got 5 double jumps. He's forced to land sooner or later.
I agree that Ivysaur hates characters that are very mobile in the air, but I don't see how she can't do anything. If I had to chose between Ivysaur and Charizard against Wario, I'd chose Ivysaur without a doubt.
My playstyle is based on reading habits and punishing them so I don't know maybe that helps me against Wario. But I really doubt it.
Also the PT should start as Squirtle and since Squirtle is so good at racking up damage after he gets a kill, Ivysaur will most likely kill before he's fatigued. Or, if you already lost your stock before killing Wario, he should be at high %. So I have to disagree about Ivysaur always being fatigued.
But since you're the best PT of the world and one of the best Wario (I seriously can't decide between you, Gluto and Abadango. ) and I have played no Wario that knows the MU well (just a friend of my level who seconds Wario but since we always play together it's special) I'll have to trust you. I wish I could play with you though, but you'll probably never get the chance to show me how bad this matchup is.
- If you predict a double jump
- To punish a landing on a platform like Smashville's
- To condition the Wario to be afraid of being at this specific range and airdodge (which can be punished with an U-Smash).
Wario hasn't got 5 double jumps. He's forced to land sooner or later.
I agree that Ivysaur hates characters that are very mobile in the air, but I don't see how she can't do anything. If I had to chose between Ivysaur and Charizard against Wario, I'd chose Ivysaur without a doubt.
My playstyle is based on reading habits and punishing them so I don't know maybe that helps me against Wario. But I really doubt it.
Also the PT should start as Squirtle and since Squirtle is so good at racking up damage after he gets a kill, Ivysaur will most likely kill before he's fatigued. Or, if you already lost your stock before killing Wario, he should be at high %. So I have to disagree about Ivysaur always being fatigued.
But since you're the best PT of the world and one of the best Wario (I seriously can't decide between you, Gluto and Abadango.
) and I have played no Wario that knows the MU well (just a friend of my level who seconds Wario but since we always play together it's special) I'll have to trust you. I wish I could play with you though, but you'll probably never get the chance to show me how bad this matchup is.
No, it can't punish any of those things. The opponent has one-third of a second to react to it. Ivysaur goes into a very obvious animation during the start-up, so it's not like it can be mixed up with something like F-Air in those positions.Vine whip can be used :
- If you predict a double jump
- To punish a landing on a platform like Smashville's
- To condition the Wario to be afraid of being at this specific range and airdodge (which can be punished with an U-Smash).
Wario hasn't got 5 double jumps. He's forced to land sooner or later.
I agree that Ivysaur hates characters that are very mobile in the air, but I don't see how she can't do anything. If I had to chose between Ivysaur and Charizard against Wario, I'd chose Ivysaur without a doubt.
My playstyle is based on reading habits and punishing them so I don't know maybe that helps me against Wario. But I really doubt it.
Also the PT should start as Squirtle and since Squirtle is so good at racking up damage after he gets a kill, Ivysaur will most likely kill before he's fatigued. Or, if you already lost your stock before killing Wario, he should be at high %. So I have to disagree about Ivysaur always being fatigued.
But since you're the best PT of the world and one of the best Wario (I seriously can't decide between you, Gluto and Abadango.
You will NEVER land a U-Smash against a Wario player who knows the matchup, because Wario will never hang out next to you for 26 frames unless he's going for a grab (in which case you won't be able to punish with it). Wario has no reason to spotdodge against Ivysaur, because Ivysaur can't adequately threaten Wario unless Wario stays in place. Why would the character with the best horizontal aerial mobility do that? It's much more helpful for him to roll backward or just jump away, especially since Ivysaur's grabs are so slow and low to the ground.
His mobility prevents Ivysaur from keeping up with him if he mixes up horizontal movement even a little bit. He also has a useful fastfall to mix it up, and if Ivysaur is using Up-B against a landing Wario, Wario can fastfall through the platform or fastfall airdodge through the Up-B and get a free grab. Ivysaur is too slow to adequately cover Wario's landings.
If Wario moves backward, Ivysaur has to take enormous risks just to potentially deal damage. Ivysaur is also easily the worst at keeping Wario out when you consider the reward that it gets you.
Wario is one of the most dynamic characters in the game. If he's playing the matchup correctly, there won't be obvious patterns to catch, except for his moving backward, which you can't do anything about. Ivysaur should always be fatigued, as she cannot approach Wario at all. The thing that makes Ivysaur struggle against good characters tends to be the idea that Ivysaur needs time and openings to deal heavy damage. If characters like Snake and Falco just keep hitboxes out, Ivysaur can't get into position in order to deal substantial damage.
I don't feel like Ivysaur and Charizard need to worry about fatigue as much. Just playing safe and accepting later kill options can work with them because they have power. How late to Ivy's GR options and Charizard's rock smash/bair kill when fatigued.
also the only time i would up b with ivysaur is with that lagless platform trick. its definitely punishable if wario airdodges it (which he easily can) and just drifts into you for a free grab.
also the only time i would up b with ivysaur is with that lagless platform trick. its definitely punishable if wario airdodges it (which he easily can) and just drifts into you for a free grab.
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Well, that's your point of view and I understand it.
But you act like Wario is going to avoid perfectly every attack, make no mistakes, won't be punished during his landings and won't be read... If he wants to actually damage Ivysaur, he can punished. Nothing is 100% safe in Brawl.
@Tesh : Below a platform, SH UpB + buffered shield platform drop-through (+ U-air/AD for instance) is quite safe.
But you act like Wario is going to avoid perfectly every attack, make no mistakes, won't be punished during his landings and won't be read... If he wants to actually damage Ivysaur, he can punished. Nothing is 100% safe in Brawl.
@Tesh : Below a platform, SH UpB + buffered shield platform drop-through (+ U-air/AD for instance) is quite safe.
^ Reflex is talking about whats relatively reliable for each character and there is a big gap there he is trying to point out. Although its not as bad as a super mobile character with range, Wario only takes 1 or 2 hits to put ivysaur in his worst positions.
Iota
Smash Lord
Probably. I'm going to say +2 Wario. Squirtle is annoying but the other two are free. Basically all the stuff Reflex has said also. 
she is only a girl by the same logic that ash is a girl. people just say that because its a female voice actor.
They're your Pokémon. They can be male or female. Whatever you want them to be.
Croi
Smash Lord
+1 Squirtle, +2 the others Luigi now
Why many say that Ivysaur is a girl is because Ivysaur sounds feminine in the Japanese version of Brawl (I think). The thing is that we can't actually know if the Pokémon in Brawl are feminine or masculin, with the exception of Pikachu and Lucario. However, I still believe Ivysaur to be a boy! =P
OnTopic: I agree with what Reflex said, Wario's aerial mobilty wrecks PT. Wario has the tools to make the Pokémon fatigued and if they want to switch, Wario can easily punish it with dangerous stuff. Squirtle is the best Pokémon to use against Wario, IMO, since Squirtle is small and nimble and has great frame data and mobilty. Wario's range isn't dangerous for Squirtle either. The "only" problem is that Wario kills Squirtle early and Squrtle has problem with killing Wario (if Squirlte doesn't (hydro) grab Wario over the edge of the platform/stage). Bite is a good mix-up tool too. +1 for Wario.
Ivysaur is super-easy to gimp - just pressure her/him to the edge and try to get her/him offstage. If you have a bike it's almost a free gimp. Just watch out for the razor leaves when you hang on the ledge, but they should not be a problem to avoid. Just gimping Ivysaur should NOT be a problem at all. Watch out for its grab, since a grab-release can hurt (Ivysaur is the only Pokémon in Brawl that can grab-release Wario 100% of the time). I also think that Ivysaur's bair is good at spacing Wario, but I don't know really. I hate that I don't have experience against PT. But really, everything Ivysaur has is easily avoided by Wario. +2 for Wario, or possibly +3...
We juggle Charizard hard with up-air and he is easy to combo. However, Charizard has a somewhat good range in his attacks (grab, up-smash, Rock Smash and his tail attacks come in mind) that we must be careful about. Tires and the bike as a projectile + bite is good tools against Charizard I think. Just play safe against the dragon and make him get tired. Don't know what more to add (like, zero experience here...). +2 for Wario.
To sum it up: We can outcamp PT and make his Pokémon fatigued. If they want to switch, we can punish that. Wario's aerial mobilty is too much for PT and thus making this MU hard for PT. Wario doesn't need to approach - he can camp all day and poke and punish too. Wario should be playing defensively (maybe with the exception of Glutonny) and safe. Wario's grab and bite can punish hard and are therefore nice tools to use in this MU. One thing that PT "should be thankful for" is that Wario doesn't have dangerous range, but his mobilty kinda "reverses" that. Least to say, Wario's aerial mobilty >>> Pokémon Trainer. Easily +2 for Wario, and I understand what TRW means by that this MU could be +3 for Wario. I still feel that if a Wario (or another counter-character) loses to a PT, it is due to one having no experiences against PT... That is his (also the PT's) best strength IMO... Which is kinda sad... But as said, I think PT is the character that most people have the less experience in.
TheReflexWonder: +2/+3
Myollnir: +2
Iota: +2
Croi: +2
xzx: +2
OnTopic: I agree with what Reflex said, Wario's aerial mobilty wrecks PT. Wario has the tools to make the Pokémon fatigued and if they want to switch, Wario can easily punish it with dangerous stuff. Squirtle is the best Pokémon to use against Wario, IMO, since Squirtle is small and nimble and has great frame data and mobilty. Wario's range isn't dangerous for Squirtle either. The "only" problem is that Wario kills Squirtle early and Squrtle has problem with killing Wario (if Squirlte doesn't (hydro) grab Wario over the edge of the platform/stage). Bite is a good mix-up tool too. +1 for Wario.
Ivysaur is super-easy to gimp - just pressure her/him to the edge and try to get her/him offstage. If you have a bike it's almost a free gimp. Just watch out for the razor leaves when you hang on the ledge, but they should not be a problem to avoid. Just gimping Ivysaur should NOT be a problem at all. Watch out for its grab, since a grab-release can hurt (Ivysaur is the only Pokémon in Brawl that can grab-release Wario 100% of the time). I also think that Ivysaur's bair is good at spacing Wario, but I don't know really. I hate that I don't have experience against PT. But really, everything Ivysaur has is easily avoided by Wario. +2 for Wario, or possibly +3...
We juggle Charizard hard with up-air and he is easy to combo. However, Charizard has a somewhat good range in his attacks (grab, up-smash, Rock Smash and his tail attacks come in mind) that we must be careful about. Tires and the bike as a projectile + bite is good tools against Charizard I think. Just play safe against the dragon and make him get tired. Don't know what more to add (like, zero experience here...). +2 for Wario.
To sum it up: We can outcamp PT and make his Pokémon fatigued. If they want to switch, we can punish that. Wario's aerial mobilty is too much for PT and thus making this MU hard for PT. Wario doesn't need to approach - he can camp all day and poke and punish too. Wario should be playing defensively (maybe with the exception of Glutonny) and safe. Wario's grab and bite can punish hard and are therefore nice tools to use in this MU. One thing that PT "should be thankful for" is that Wario doesn't have dangerous range, but his mobilty kinda "reverses" that. Least to say, Wario's aerial mobilty >>> Pokémon Trainer. Easily +2 for Wario, and I understand what TRW means by that this MU could be +3 for Wario. I still feel that if a Wario (or another counter-character) loses to a PT, it is due to one having no experiences against PT... That is his (also the PT's) best strength IMO... Which is kinda sad... But as said, I think PT is the character that most people have the less experience in.
TheReflexWonder: +2/+3
Myollnir: +2
Iota: +2
Croi: +2
xzx: +2
You're all using your best judgment, but it is clear to me that none of you actually know what either character is capable of in the matchup.
Squirtle's lack of range is a huge boost for Wario, since trades are usually way in Wario's favor. If you mash out of a Hydrograb at the edge quickly enough, Wario is ground-released and you both fall off the stage, putting Squirtle in a bad position.
Wario doesn't gimp Ivysaur especially well. Ivysaur has nothing that deals serious damage outside of a grab setup or a hard read with an aerial (which is only happening when Ivysaur is getting juggled, which makes it even harder for Ivysaur).
Wario's horizontal aerial mobility and generally bad ground game means that Charizard will have almost no opportunities to Rock Smash outside of B-Reverse/wavebouncing in order to throw off spacing. Charizard is also pretty bad at walling from above, so Wario is able to harass him without much trouble.
Lack of experience shouldn't be a factor in matchups. If that were the case, then what's the point of doing matchup ratios in the first place, since players can always have varying amounts of understanding of the matchup?
Squirtle's lack of range is a huge boost for Wario, since trades are usually way in Wario's favor. If you mash out of a Hydrograb at the edge quickly enough, Wario is ground-released and you both fall off the stage, putting Squirtle in a bad position.
Wario doesn't gimp Ivysaur especially well. Ivysaur has nothing that deals serious damage outside of a grab setup or a hard read with an aerial (which is only happening when Ivysaur is getting juggled, which makes it even harder for Ivysaur).
Wario's horizontal aerial mobility and generally bad ground game means that Charizard will have almost no opportunities to Rock Smash outside of B-Reverse/wavebouncing in order to throw off spacing. Charizard is also pretty bad at walling from above, so Wario is able to harass him without much trouble.
Lack of experience shouldn't be a factor in matchups. If that were the case, then what's the point of doing matchup ratios in the first place, since players can always have varying amounts of understanding of the matchup?
Croi
Smash Lord
e: ten nvms
@TRW: I thought Ivysaur was easily gimped by like everyone... But for me it should not be THAT hard to gimp Ivy if one know what to do. But as said, I have very little experience against PT, so if Ivysaur isn't easily gimped by Wario, I have had wrong. Yeah, I agree that I don't have much experience against PT, but that doesn't mean that I don't know some aspects of the MU. I'm not saying that my views on the aspects are entirely correct, but I can still state something in the MU. If what I write is false, I want someone (for example you) to correct me, so I learn from that and can advance. But do you disagree with what I/we have written about PT or do you disagree with the ratios everyone has stated? Because we all know that you are the person who knows the most about PT. Do you think the MU is +2 or +3?
I disagree with a lot of your points; the matchup-related ideas in my previous post were mostly in response to you.
If we maximize our ability to abuse PT's weak points, I'd say it's +3. It's...really rough for PT as long as Wario stays patient. PT cannot adequately catch you, can't adequately avoid Waft, is extremely easy to grab, is pretty easy to juggle, and should always struggle to KO you at anything lower than 150% (and sometimes much later!). With the exception of a couple things (Squirtle D-Throw, Charizard U-Smash), power moves will only land if you let them. He's in a constant state of pressure due to the combination of Waft, fatigue, and his poor approaching tools (in this matchup), and it's easy and effective to exploit.
If we maximize our ability to abuse PT's weak points, I'd say it's +3. It's...really rough for PT as long as Wario stays patient. PT cannot adequately catch you, can't adequately avoid Waft, is extremely easy to grab, is pretty easy to juggle, and should always struggle to KO you at anything lower than 150% (and sometimes much later!). With the exception of a couple things (Squirtle D-Throw, Charizard U-Smash), power moves will only land if you let them. He's in a constant state of pressure due to the combination of Waft, fatigue, and his poor approaching tools (in this matchup), and it's easy and effective to exploit.
Iota
Smash Lord
Can we go to Luigi now?
I mean, I'm completely outnumbered. May as well.
@TRW: Oh okay. I see. If I have wrong then I admit it, and I want correction to adjust myself. However, I don't like to underestimate what Wario can do and I don't like to overestimate either what Wario can do. The same applies for PT. Theoretically Wario wrecks PT, but practical this wrecking is much "softer". Do you get what I mean? ICs are like really broken theoretically, but practically they are less "broken". But of course, since this is a theoretical discussion we can only proceed from that. I think that this MU is much less extreme than it is theoretically. (I don't mean to say against you or anything. I just want you to know that Wario cannot be played perfectly, even if he has the tools to do so. Or else Wario shouldn't get hit by almost everything and Wario should also never be grabbed. I think you know that too.)
Should we carry on to Luigi or do you guys feel that we should discuss PT a little more?
TheReflexWonder: +3
Myollnir: +2
Iota: +2
Croi: +2
xzx: +2
Should we carry on to Luigi or do you guys feel that we should discuss PT a little more?
TheReflexWonder: +3
Myollnir: +2
Iota: +2
Croi: +2
xzx: +2
Right, but I'm telling you from lots and lots of experience that it isn't about perfect play--It's about Ivysaur's Up-B being incredibly slow, PT's moves only lasting a small number of frames, and a lot of other things. PT is just very limited in ways that Wario is especially good at capitalizing on.
There is no theory behind the stuff I've said so far. Talking about tagging Wario with Ivysaur Up-B is not something that happens among players who know the matchup. You may -think- that there's a large disparity between theory and experience in this matchup, but how much matchup experience do you have to feel confident in saying that in the first place?
There is no theory behind the stuff I've said so far. Talking about tagging Wario with Ivysaur Up-B is not something that happens among players who know the matchup. You may -think- that there's a large disparity between theory and experience in this matchup, but how much matchup experience do you have to feel confident in saying that in the first place?
Player-1
Smash Legend
reflex should just play against himself so we have something to relate to in a practical sense
It's not uncommon for me to lose to my older brother's Wario in the matchup, even though I'm a significantly better player overall and he doesn't regularly use Wario.
He's familiar enough with how both characters work that he's able to abuse the issues PT has and force me to do risky options in order to potentially deal damage, but that's only when he's embracing the weave-to-grab and camping potential instead of just coming at me.
That's not what leads me to suggest +/-3 (I play the matchup from both sides more often than anyone else, I'm sure), but it sure helps to illustrate that the abuse is very realistic.
He's familiar enough with how both characters work that he's able to abuse the issues PT has and force me to do risky options in order to potentially deal damage, but that's only when he's embracing the weave-to-grab and camping potential instead of just coming at me.
That's not what leads me to suggest +/-3 (I play the matchup from both sides more often than anyone else, I'm sure), but it sure helps to illustrate that the abuse is very realistic.
Yeah, I understand, and you're right. I'll admit that I don't have much experience in this MU (like the other Waros I think) so therefore you have right in what you're saying. I can understand why you think this MU is +3 for Wario, but for me it kinda gets screwed over when, according to the MUs, DeeKay/Wolf should be "harder" for Wario. I mean, the chaingrabs wreck those characters. Therefore I have a little trouble to think that PT is easier... But I know that one in the first place can't compare MUs like that. But don't take me wrong - I understand why you think this MU is -3 to PT, and to be honest I could think that this MU is -3 to PT as well, but just that I feel that it is a little "extreme". I do feel that this MU is between +2 and +3 ("+2,5"), but yeah, this MU rating system fails IMO. I would rather see a +5_0_-5 system. Then this MU would easily be +3 (out of +5) in Wario's favour. Too bad it isn't that way... I feel though that more should have said that this MU is +3 (not meaning that I have "entirely right" when I say this MU is +2).
School was hard yesterday.
We should not be comparing matchups to each other; one matchup should not go up or down a point only because you feel another matchup "should be" harder.
Donkey Kong and Wolf (especially Wolf) have reasonably strong spacing tools that prevent the chaingrab from being especially powerful ("+3 powerful," I mean). PT lacks many tools to make Wario think twice about going in or moving away, and fatigue is very crippling against a character with such high damage output and KO potential (not to mention the ability to run the clock for fatigue). DK and Wolf both have fairly common situations where Wario will have trouble keeping pressure outside. PT does not. DK and Wolf both greatly benefit from counterpicking and limiting the stage choice Wario has. PT does not.
I think more people should be able to elaborate on their reasoning if they're confident enough to actually throw out numbers, and that it should be more than a gut feeling. :/
As for your reasoning, a person could just as well say "well, I think +2 doesn't really show how rough it is for PT, so I'll vote +3" in the same way you did the opposite. Moving to a lower number isn't inherently better, especially if the "between +2 and +3" is more like "+2.8." >_>
I mean, everyone has a right to think what they want. It's just in poor taste to be adamant about a rating if you don't actually have much experience in it and can't adequately argue against a person who does.
We should not be comparing matchups to each other; one matchup should not go up or down a point only because you feel another matchup "should be" harder.
Donkey Kong and Wolf (especially Wolf) have reasonably strong spacing tools that prevent the chaingrab from being especially powerful ("+3 powerful," I mean). PT lacks many tools to make Wario think twice about going in or moving away, and fatigue is very crippling against a character with such high damage output and KO potential (not to mention the ability to run the clock for fatigue). DK and Wolf both have fairly common situations where Wario will have trouble keeping pressure outside. PT does not. DK and Wolf both greatly benefit from counterpicking and limiting the stage choice Wario has. PT does not.
I think more people should be able to elaborate on their reasoning if they're confident enough to actually throw out numbers, and that it should be more than a gut feeling. :/
As for your reasoning, a person could just as well say "well, I think +2 doesn't really show how rough it is for PT, so I'll vote +3" in the same way you did the opposite. Moving to a lower number isn't inherently better, especially if the "between +2 and +3" is more like "+2.8." >_>