Wario's Match-Ups!

[xzx]

I would also say that the MU between Luigi and Wario is even. Luigi has a powerful air game and he is good at juggling too (at lower percentages). Luigi's nair, bair and up-air have good range/hitbox placement and he can just interrupt strings with nair. Luigi can kill with a variety of moves and luckily he can't grab-release us to aerial Fire Jump Punch/up-angled f-smash. Don't even think of landing near Luigi! If Wario is recovering low, he can just use his cyclone to knock us off the bike (but recovering low is just bad overall). That is very situational though. Bite beats Luigi's Green Missile, so if Luigi is going for the edge or on the stage/still offstage we can predict that and strike with an attack, par example waft. The bike as a projectile is good at pressuring Luigi offstage. But I feel that Luigi shouldn't have too much trouble to recover anyway. His cyclone beats bite and many of our moves, IIRC. The cyclone is good at eliminating the tires too. Luigi also has some quick tilts and jab. Yeah, Luigi overall is quick in both aerials and ground game. He can kill, and so does Wario. Bite is a nice mix-up tool and both character's range isn't very threatening. Wario's air mobility compared to Luigi's is a huge difference - Wario's ability to weave back and forth is what Luigi has to struggle the most with IMO. Overall I have to say that this is an even MU.


LOE1: 0
xzx: 0

 

[DMG]

You camp the poo out of Luigi. For the love of God don't get hit by Upb.

 

[Iota]

From my experience playing Boss and a bunch of luigis online I'd say the MU is +1. I'll try to get a write up done later.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Weave around and B-Air a lot. Don't be too afraid to throw your bike up or down, as he has no reliable means of punishing it. The only way he should be able to catch you if you're camping is by using two jumps in quick succession so watch for that when he's directly underneath you. His bad horizontal aerial mobility makes our grab pretty useful, so weave and look for that when you're on the ground. The occasional tilt for a "mix-up" hitbox will work here and there, too.

Seriously, B-Air should be something like half your moves. Trades are fairly common, and you can also stuff his aerials in some situations.

He's easy to rack up damage on when he's recovering, so take advantage of that.

As long as you have a platform somewhere on the stage, you have an incredible amount of control in the matchup, and Waft isn't too hard to land on Luigi. You can usually wait for a Waft with little trouble, so unless time is running out, there's no reason not to wait for it.

We have a great deal of control over what moves Luigi must stick to, and camping is really rough on him. I'm pretty confident in +2. Worst-case scenario puts its at a REALLY strong +1. This comes from my being something like 2-0 in (old) sets against Boss's Luigi and a quite-high percentage of wins against BigLou. I feel like they have to work so much harder than I do to make things happen.

xzx, using Bite in this matchup will get you killed at 80%. Too great a risk for way too little a reward. Anytime Bite seems like it would be a good option, you're better off using a grab (perhaps pivot grab) or a strong aerial.

I want to stress that this is a matchup where you should mostly avoid strings that don't come from the passive pressure of being right outside his personal space. Individual hits will minimize the amount of times you get stuffed by N-Air, Jab, or Down-B, and it can also frustrate the opponent, potentially getting him to make more mistakes.

 

[boss8]

wario has slight advantage.....

he can jus fart on luigi's recovery......

that's like a huge chunk of the MU tooken away from us...lool

 

[Iota]

Reflex basically covered the bulk of the MU. To make a further note on Luigi's kill moves. You shouldn't be dying from something that isn't a bair/uair poke or b-throw. He's far too immobile to land his strong kill moves on us outside of a read/strong punish. I like to play this MU sorta like GW in that grabs, ledge walling, etc. are essential. I could never really see this MU as a +2. If it is, it's one of Luigi's easier +2s imo.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i just wanted to comment on the whole "pt shouldn't be +3 cuz that wut wolf/dk are and he has cg's on them"


IMO


having control over the approach battles in a MU is wayyyyy more important than the punish that one character can get on the other.


this is one of the reasons i dont think wario/ddd is THAT bad

and why wolf/dk can do well vs wario considering how well they both can space in the air and platform camp.

big punishes don't mean much if in top level play they are near impossible to land

 

[DMG]

Wolf yes, DK no. DK is a fattie and gets Bite --> Dash grabbed into CG. You gotta damage Wolf prior to CGing him, and he spaces against Wario easier. If you suck and get grabbed though DK will **** you. Wolf definitely does better, I wouldn't be scared of DK really.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

Even though wario has aerial speed on luigi, his fireballs keep you from camping. They're not hugely effective, they're just a disruption that forces you to do somthing.

The biggest place you get luigi is offstage. Fart on the B-over, and wait for the cyclone, then punish in it's ending lag.

When he d-throws you, for the love of god, don't airdodge to the ground above 60%. Luigi's usually fast enough on the ground to dash and get the upB.

 

[Iota]

Fire balls are not going to force us to do anything, they're too slow, linear, and lack range compared to other projectiles.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

Slowness has the nice effect that they also hang around longer. It just adds another thing wario has to deal with.

If wario is in the air, he has to land: fireball. It's not aimed to hit, it's aimed to limit his landing spots. If wario is on the ground, usually you'll wanna shoot above him.

It's just another tool, it doesn't shut him down or anything.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Slowness has the nice effect that they also hang around longer. It just adds another thing wario has to deal with.

If wario is in the air, he has to land: fireball. It's not aimed to hit, it's aimed to limit his landing spots. If wario is on the ground, usually you'll wanna shoot above him.

It's just another tool, it doesn't shut him down or anything.

Wario's aerial mobility is far too great to even potentially trap him with a Luigi fireball. We could just...move away, as we're much faster than a fireball and can see it coming before it's released in the first place. Even if it were, it's easy to clank out with aerials or the Forward-B.

It's only useful for Luigi as a means of (slightly) limiting Wario's approach in this matchup.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

Well, I disagree, but I suppose you're the one with more experience here.

Croi, the fireballs, back me up here.

 

[Iota]

Croi, back him up and you will be smited.

 

[DMG]

COME AND I WILL USE MEWTWO!

 

[Croi]

Nah, I have to agree with them, the fireballs don't really mean d!ck.

 

[boss8]

hey.....that one fireball can force u to shield....

giving us a grab.....

if u don't airdodge after dthrow...free aerial/combo for us ^__^

if u do airdodge...its just gonna be a mixup game of rock/paper/scissors

can i call his airdodge?/can i land this aerial?/etc

but overall IMO i think this MU is

45/55 wario....

 

[BSP]

I would put this MU in Wario's favor as well. I've played Jnig in it a bit.

As far as racking % goes, I think Wario and Luigi are fairly even. Both of them have moves that hit hard, and they both have strings that can rack damage incredibly fast. Both of them also have methods of killing early off of reads. However, in general, I feel that Wario can remain safer while applying pressure and racking damage than Luigi.

I feel like I could say more, but the thing that makes the MU clear Wario favor IMO is how much less he has to commit. Wario's mobility allows him to control the flow of the match and fight at his own pace. Unless Luigi has a significant lead, I think Wario is essentially always in control. If Wario gets a lead and decides to camp, Luigi is in for a very long uphill battle. Wario can come into and leave Luigi's personal space at his own will, and safely threaten Luigi with pokes and grabs, while potentially having great reward off of confirms. Luigi just can't do the same. Every time he goes in, I feel like it's a major commitment that could very well end badly if Wario gains the upper hand in the confrontation.

That being said, don't sleep on Luigi. He can turn the match around in a few hits if you let him. However, Wario clearly controls the pace of this MU.

I agree with what Reflex said, especially w.r.t. to Luigi working harder, in addition to being less safe than Wario. The control + safety factor is big. The only reason it's not +2 imo is because of Luigi's absurd KO potential.

+1 wario for the ratio, although I could see +2 being argued.

 

[xzx]

LOE1: 0
xzx: 0
Iota: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1/+2
boss8: +1
BSP: +1


How about Luigi's general frame data compared to Wario in both the air and on the ground?

 

[Lord Chair]

luigi's frame data is broken as **** l0l

 

[Iota]

^This. Luigi is held back sooooo much by his horrible mobility.

 

[boss8]

luigi's frame data is pretty strong....

most of his moves come out pretty fast...

 

[xzx]

@TRW: When I meant using bite in this MU I sorta meant that we could punish Luigi with it. Like, Luigi can't do much if he is hit while shielding. If he has a habit of dodging instead, a bite will punish that. Sorry for not stating that before but yeah. Maybe it's better to grab him after all. Thank you for the tips (especially the tip by using bair a lot)! n_n

---

I also feel like even if Luigi sucks at approaching/having bad speeds overall he doesn't really need to approach (the only that can happen is that Wario is charging his waft and maybe even get free tires). Luigi can perform three aerials per jump (if I'm not mistaken) and his up-air is good at blocking Wario's approach (not saying that Wario necessarily needs to approach) and Wario is going to approach sooner or later. It's going to happen. Three aerials in a jump sure sounds like a good tool to use in this MU... As with Luigi's frame data, I honestly think that with that reason solely this MU isn't as bad as one might think it is. I sometimes feel that we are comparing Wario's strong sides with Luigi's (or some other characters maybe) weak sides, but whatever. Maybe it's just me.

However, I can now see why this MU could be +1 to Wario by Wario having great tools against Luigi offstage - punishing his recovery (cool down) with a waft is something I didn't thought of. That's why I think this MU COULD be +1 to Wario. I'm still not convinced though, as that reason solely can't convince me. Luigi still has got dem weird tools. Luigi's aerials are too freaking good. And I think that Luigi is underrated (he is at the bottom of Middle Tier, I mean wth?). So yeah. =P Hehe..


LOE1: 0
xzx: 0/+1
Iota: +1
TheReflexWonder: +1/+2
boss8: +1
BSP: +1

 

[boss8]

this MU is pretty fun anyways....

 

[Iota]

You shouldn't be approaching predictably enough that you're getting stuffed with uairs and u-tilts. Luigi can only do three aerials with fair, any other combination can only be done twice. Even though Luigi's frame data is amazing his mobility makes it really hard for him to be safe when he's commiting to attacks. Luigi does not like Wario waft charging and getting out tires, it can make his life fairly rough.

I agree with Boss.

 

[boss8]

doesn't wario hafe to come near us anyways?

we can jus wait all day.....

fart isn't really a threat.....you hafe to come near us to land a fart...

which is what most luigi mains want you to do...APPROACH US!!

 

[(S!C)]

-1 for wario

 

[boss8]

-1 for wario

its even or SLIGHT wario advantage IMO....

+1/0

 

[Iota]

..Meh. We can be relatively safe when approaching as long as we don't do something stupid anyway. Only instance I can think of where it's more difficult is when you're under a plat. Main thing to know about this MU is we can damage you more safely most of the time. I will never agree to 0, that's just how I am.

 

[Lord Chair]

wario can set up safe approaches on nigh every stage but BF with tires

 

[Iota]

LC, can you give a ratio for this MU?

 

[boss8]

ban flat stages -_^b

 

[Iota]

Ban YI/BF.

 

[boss8]

i personally don't mind playing on any stage.......

cept gimmick stages..

 

[LOE1]

ban YI vs luigi

i have had some terrible, terrible experiences with that...

as for cping goes, i personally like delfino. frigate with luigi is meh. luigi is pretty darn good there...

i still think this mu is even due toracking up damage and stage control. like boss said, we will need to approach one time or another

 

[Iota]

You're underestimating how good Wario is at approaching in this MU. It isn't the end of the world just because we're forced to approach.

Frigate is pretty good if you can get stage control of the middle or left side depending on what part you're on. PS1, FD, Delfino, and Frigate are your best bets in this MU. We don't really have a hugely polarizing stage in this MU though outside of Brin/Rc which are usually banned.

Luigi is overrated on YI imo.

 

[Croi]

I dunno. The only Luigis I play will only play me on SV/BF.

+1 I guess.

 

[boss8]

This MU is even/+1....

for only skill can determine who beats the other person...

 

[SSGuy]

Luigi's only weakness in this match up is his lack of decent horizontal movement in the air. He becomes very easy to chase down in many scenarios.

Luigi seems heavier than he should and he hits like a truck if you become punishable.

I say this match up is +1. Luigi has a lot to work for in this match up but that shouldn't be the reason it would be considered +2 Wario.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If the goal is just to get a general consensus on a number, we're through with Luigi. Next!