Wario's Match-Ups!

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You can jump to avoid dsmash lol

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

what nickriddle said

 

[xzx]

@-LzR-: Wario will take damage from it and fall of the bike/take the hitstun from the d-smash. As long as Wario doesn't get hit by it while on the bike (also the d-smash hits the front part of the bike, without hitting Wario), he will avoid its damage and effect.

ZSS has good aerials against us with good range and slight disjoints (well, not up-air; it has a GREAT disjoint), but Wario has good aerials too, making trading at least possible from both sides. ZSS has that plasma whip so it's hard to compete with that range - it's just better to avoid her up-b and side-b, as well as her other plasma whip attacks. Her d-smash is among her best tools (damage racker, combo starter etc...). After a d-smash she can: d-smash again > grab-release us > aerial (not dair). That means that she can do sick follow ups. Remember to bike away after a grab-release to avoid an incoming d-smash. She can't grab-release infinite us nor infinite us with d-smash to regrab (pivot grab), luckily. If she grabs you, be aware of jumping as soon as possible or possible nair, so she can't do another grab/d-smash. If she d-smashes us while we are on the bike, we will take damage and get off the bike at earlier percents, and at later percents we will receive the damage and get hitstun from it. Sometimes we can even recieve 22% (her d-smash normally does 11% damage) when she d-smashes us on the bike. Odd... (Maybe we get hit from both hitboxes, but I dunno really why it happens.) She can do many things out of a single d-smash so be careful.

If Wario gets hold of her armor pieces, Wario enters **** heaven. Armor pieces are like tires, except better. They have greater priority, gives more knockback and is really good at edge guarding/stage controlling. The tires bounce more times than the armor pieces though and deals the same amount of damage. But tires are also great against ZSS, especially for edge guarding her. Don't underestimate them. Wario normally kills better than ZSS. The wafts are really effective against her. Wario should predict her recovery and try to punish her as much as possible, because it will really pay off. Try to punish with waft, especially if she is going to use her down-b. Try to hang on the ledge so she can't use her side-b or up-b right away. Try to get her away from the ledge as much as possible and then hang on the ledge, edge hogging her. Watch out for her up-b, so she don't take you with her! If she uses her down-b, try to punish it.

I also love using the bike in this MU, but don't be predictable with, since her side-b will knock us off the bike, as well as other stuff like she has.. Poke much. Nair, fair and dair are really good against her, especially fair and nair. I would say this MU is even, if both know what to do. But it is ZSS who has a little more trouble in this MU, since Wario is heavy and she is light + Wario's strong power. This could be +1 in Wario's favour, but as said, if both knows how to play the MU, it's anyone's game. Or so it feels. So even, 0.

-------------------------------------------------------------

TheReflexWonder: +1
Xonar: +1
DrSoussou: +1
Jebu-95: 0
NickRiddle: +1
Sensei Seibrik: +1
xzx: 0

 

[xzx]

Any more inputs on this MU?

 

[Lord Chair]

i would but ive been in paris for 4 days and am too tired to write something now

It's a fairly intricate MU that kinda forces you to really really smartly use fair, its very easy to misuse it and I could probably talk just about an hour about how to apply it. At any case, you have to stress the horizontal part of the MU even though her bair is... super broken.

There's going to be a couple of Quiksilver v. Glutonny vids going to be uploaded and they should give a very nice insight on this overlooked MU. Even though Glutonny loses (and imo he played the MU wrong >>> too little fair) it's a nice watch.

 

[xzx]

Ratio? Too little have given a ratio.

TheReflexWonder: +1
Xonar: +1
DrSoussou: +1
Jebu-95: 0
NickRiddle: +1
Sensei Seibrik: +1
xzx: 0

 

[Lord Chair]

+1

+1+1+1+1+1

 

[Croi]

+1+1+1+1+1

 

[Labernash]

Don't know this one very well, but I'd say +1.

+1+1+1+1+1++++++1111111

 

[Nicks]

i dont know if it has already been decided what the next matchup is that we are going discuss or not.
But if it hasnt been decided i would like to request that we discuss game&watch next.

that matchup is weird/hard

 

[DMG]

I think the MU played well on both sides couldn't be more than 5 MAYBE 10 points Wario's favor leaning more towards 5. It's a lot closer than I used to think. (ZSS that is)

Pika is the same couldn't be more than 5 points Wario favor imo.

G^W 5 points either character. Wario has an easier time eating damage and trading. G^W is overall scarier at killing. It's a hard MU for Wario in that G^W is a pretty safe character overall vs Wario, but it's made easier due to how telegraphed/unable to extensively wall like Peach Marth MK and how darn light he is.

 

[(S!C)]

zss 65 : 35 Wario > : (

 

[Iota]

Is the horizantal spacing similar to how you play against Marth?

I'm really unfamiliar with this MU so I'm not gonna put down a ratio..

 

[ViperGold42]

I think the MU played well on both sides couldn't be more than 5 MAYBE 10 points Wario's favor leaning more towards 5. It's a lot closer than I used to think. (ZSS that is)

Pika is the same couldn't be more than 5 points Wario favor imo.

G^W 5 points either character. Wario has an easier time eating damage and trading. G^W is overall scarier at killing. It's a hard MU for Wario in that G^W is a pretty safe character overall vs Wario, but it's made easier due to how telegraphed/unable to extensively wall like Peach Marth MK and how darn light he is.

I would declare that Wario's MU against ZSS is just EVEN, I can't really see one over the other. its hard to kill Wario and vice versa. but that's my input from a ZSS player now picking up Wario.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Difference is that ZSS will die much earlier than Wario, and Wario deals more damage with each hit.
Sure, whiffing will cause him eat a string by ZSS, but an aggro wario would have advantage.

I'd say +1 Wario.

 

[Lord Chair]

Difference is that ZSS will die much earlier than Wario, and Wario deals more damage with each hit.
Sure, whiffing will cause him eat a string by ZSS, but an aggro wario would have advantage.

I'd say +1 Wario.

you cannot play this MU aggro

 

[xzx]

TheReflexWonder: +1
Xonar: +1
DrSoussou: +1
Jebu-95: 0
NickRiddle: +1
Sensei Seibrik: +1
xzx: 0
Lord Chair: +1
Croi: +1
Labernash: +1
ViperGold42: 0
kyokoro_pamuyo: +1
(S!C): ...

+1 it is. Let's move on. Lucario's next!

 

[DMG]

you cannot play this MU aggro

^^^

Or rather, ZSS is mobile and more than decent enough at waling Wario in the air that it's hard to be aggro on her. If you're playing aggro as either character in this MU then you're doing it wrong, unless you are significantly behind. Also don't Side B over and over as ZSS in that MU you're better off not committing to an option, unless you're trying something tricky like b reversed side B or random short hop side B out of nowhere. Spamming it usually leads to wasted time/worse position for her or getting hit.

Actual fighting vs Lucario is hard and scary. I usually only win that MU if I get the stock lead because he literally will come down weaker than he was at 90+ on that other stock and have the worst time in the world trying to kill me... so I time him out. Once Lucario players realize that the best way to deal with this is to move around on the ground to catch Wario instead of throwing aerials helplessly in the air as I'm aloof, they'll do a lot better.

The hard part is getting Lucario to stop moving. Stationary Lucario is a big mistake, you need to be moving and not letting Wario in close even if it means playing boring and using rolls/retreated aerials. Oh yeah, do whatever it takes to avoid Fsmash. Seriously even if you need to approach, I'll wait a minute or more if possible to find an opening to avoid that move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Lucario is boring and dumb. I don't know what to put, number-wise.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Just a last note about ZSS.
Her shield is pretty weak, if you harrass her until she is forced to use it, you'll get a great advantage.
Keep mixing it up, abusing your mobility, mindgames and doing stuff with your tires.
That's pretty much all I can say about it.

 

[ViperGold42]

TheReflexWonder: +1
Xonar: +1
DrSoussou: +1
Jebu-95: 0
NickRiddle: +1
Sensei Seibrik: +1
xzx: 0
Lord Chair: +1
Croi: +1
Labernash: +1
ViperGold42: 0
kyokoro_pamuyo: +1
(S!C): ...

+1 it is. Let's move on. Lucario's next!

if you ever say my name again, I will cut you.

 

[LOE1]

good lucario players can be scary. i get a stock lead, they come out guns(or shadow balls) blazing. they have 1 stock 100% you have 1 stock 0%, i find that tough unlike all of wario's other mu's. they will try to avoid getting hit by attacks alot more, and hit you for major damage each hit. i can get lucario down pretty easy, but trying to kill him can be pretty tough

 

[DrSoussou]

Lucario is boring and dumb. I don't know what to put, number-wise.

Facade-stepping is boring and dumb lol

good lucario players can be scary. i get a stock lead, they come out guns(or shadow balls) blazing. they have 1 stock 100% you have 1 stock 0%, i find that tough unlike all of wario's other mu's. they will try to avoid getting hit by attacks alot more, and hit you for major damage each hit. i can get lucario down pretty easy, but trying to kill him can be pretty tough

its called an aura sphere X/

Yeah, in that one-stock %-deficit situation, the game becomes one of avoiding Wario's premier kill moves and trying to fit in a few safe Dairs or aura spheres. Dair because it can be used once out of a shorthop and then retreated safely and easily. Also because all of Wario's "Up"-moves have standard hitboxes and Lucario's Dair gets significantly increased range and damage from aura bonus (if we're talking about 0% vs 100%).

Honestly don't know how I would classify this matchup, probably due in part to bias. In general, I feel like Lucario's strength lies in his aerial combos and Wario's aerial mobility dulls that edge. Wario also has a slightly better set of KO options and is significantly heavier with a much better recovery. Maybe a solid +1 for Wario.

 

[Tesh]

Facade-stepping is boring and dumb lol

its called an aura sphere X/

Yeah, in that one-stock %-deficit situation, the game becomes one of avoiding Wario's premier kill moves and trying to fit in a few safe Dairs or aura spheres. Dair because it can be used once out of a shorthop and then retreated safely and easily. Also because all of Wario's "Up"-moves have standard hitboxes and Lucario's Dair gets significantly increased range and damage from aura bonus (if we're talking about 0% vs 100%).

Honestly don't know how I would classify this matchup, probably due in part to bias. In general, I feel like Lucario's strength lies in his aerial combos and Wario's aerial mobility dulls that edge. Wario also has a slightly better set of KO options and is significantly heavier with a much better recovery. Maybe a solid +1 for Wario.

Aura doesn't increase Lucario's range. The only hitbox that gets bigger is Aura Sphere.

 

[DrSoussou]

lol you got me, I meant to type knockback there. but on that note, FP and I believe his ledge-attack do also get a boost, not just aura sphere.

 

[Croi]

Get Lucario to 80%ish, then run like a ****** and waft. You miss, wait and waft again. You hit, repeat for two more stocks.

Obviously there's more to this MU than just that. Not always is simply running away an option, but the general point is

Lucario is boring

Most of Lucario's attacks are fairly committal, so it's mostly just waiting to jump in and rack up some damage.

+1

 

[ViperGold42]

Get Lucario to 80%ish, then run like a ****** and waft. You miss, wait and waft again. You hit, repeat for two more stocks.

Obviously there's more to this MU than just that. Not always is simply running away an option, but the general point is



Most of Lucario's attacks are fairly committal, so it's mostly just waiting to jump in and rack up some damage.

+1

you're kidding right? waft and waft some more? ummm okay........

 

[Croi]

My point being it's not safe to hit him with anything else because if he doesn't die, he just gets stronger. With anyone else you can just uair for the kill or something at 120% and if he doesn't die, well, shucks. But if it's Lucario and he doesn't die then it's getting riskier to fight him, so it's better to just camp.

Alternatively, yes, waft and waft some more. It works with every other matchup, and it'll work with Lucario.

 

[DrSoussou]

boldly simple...so crazy that it JUST MIGHT WORK

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

All of Lucario's Aura moves get a % increase when he gets damaged/stocks behind. I thought everyone knew that by now...

You guys expect that we'll just wait around for 90 seconds for you to get another half-Waft charged up? Not likely...

Its true a lot of our moves have a lot of commitment, but we completely outrange you horizontally in the air and our FAir is quick.

A fresh Clap with perfect DI on the ground at neutrals will not kill us until we are over 135% I believe.

Spam DAir on us and we will Smash DI above you and hit you with our DAir.

Wario is obnoxious to us because of his weight and mobility.

This matchup is pretty much who can weave in safely and damage the other. Its been awhile, so I'm not sure what number to attribute this MU.

 

[hichez50]

Alternatively, yes, waft and waft some more. It works with every other matchup, and it'll work with Lucario.

Yeah do this. The match up in early to mid percents is rather even in my experience. I find that wario has move off a advantage on stages with platforms it seems that he can just chain things together better. The second lucario is hit off the stage though he is put in a very uncomfortable position. If lucario goes for the edge and makes it then he has to worry about all of wario's options to prevent him from getting on.

So lucario is on the edge what can he do? Your fsmash along covers most of our edge options alone. If we jump and you read it,not that hard to do, then we have will take some damage anyway. If we air dodge... umm yeah we shouldn't. Then in the event that we are at high percents trying to recover from being hit off stage fart is king. If we air dodge we get hit. If we don't air dodge we get hit. We can really on try to be super aggressive or do some risky extreme speed gimmick.

I guess lucario likes FD/yoshi's and the other typical lucario stages. When I play a GA Wario player named miceales(correct my spelling) I tend to perform best on these stages. Wario ground game doesn't really work all that well vs. us and it transitions into a short burst of air dominance before we have to back down again.

So essentially this match-up is defined by killing potential. Wario can camp better than lucario. So if wario is just running away it is pretty bold of us to just chase you guys around. All the wario I play love the landing upair and lucario can't really do much except get out of the way. And if they read that then lucario is in trouble.

+1 Wario favor

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

But our Dair comes out on frame 4, their Clap comes out on frame 8. Plus I think we outrange it by a smidge. So, yeah...

 

[hichez50]

When I said landing clap I mean we are below them. I understand that it wasn't very clear.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think it's hilarious that "Lucario is boring" is what keeps getting quoted from me.

 

[hichez50]

What makes lucario boring? Wario camps everybody.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Unpunishable rolls, mostly. Being able to do all your awesome defensive options while permanently charging Aura Sphere is also highly underrated and is dumb, too.

Consistency with Lucario is abusing invincibility frames and basically-unstoppable movement to the fullest, like King Dedede. Consistency with Wario is usually being able to make your own pressure. Gluttony and myself are rather good because we can be pretty aggressive at the right times and can make the most of it.

 

[hichez50]

You have totally lost me with your consistency statement. I don't understand what you are talking about. Lucario abusing invincibility frames? I haven't noticed any lucario I have watched doing this. And making your own pressure? Can't everyone do this technically?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

His awesome rolls and safe offensive options make it incredibly difficult for most characters to land a clean KO move, which makes the aura boost very effective. Aura boost is fine, but, that doesn't make chasing Lucario for seven minutes any less boring, and it certainly makes it more frustrating when you keep getting pelted by F-Airs and Aura Spheres here and there.

Oh, and his fantastic foxtrot helps tremendously, too. It's his plethora of safe and unpredictable options on the ground, compounded with his ability to just not get hit whenever he wants that makes him good. Lucario can go in, but, it's not the ideal strategy against most characters. He's not anywhere close to broken--It's just that if he doesn't want to get hit, he won't get hit, and that's boring, because being able to go in via outsmarting the opponent should always be a thing, and if the Lucario player understands all his options, that's not really a thing for the bad characters a majority of the cast.

Either way, I hate fighting against Wario more than Lucario, so, try not to take it too personally. I shouldn't derail the thread.

I'll go with +1 Wario, I guess. As Croi said, Waft is the key. Waft is dumb.

 

[hichez50]

Thanks for the explanation. You never really explaned the wario statement though.

On a side note if you hate getting pelted with attacks how do you tolerate falco players?

 

[Lord Chair]

All of Lucario's Aura moves get a % increase when he gets damaged/stocks behind. I thought everyone knew that by now...

No one denied that.

You guys expect that we'll just wait around for 90 seconds for you to get another half-Waft charged up? Not likely...

You don't have much of a choice unless you want to commit to unsafe stuff.

Its true a lot of our moves have a lot of commitment, but we completely outrange you horizontally in the air and our FAir is quick.

Every character outranges us with everything. Throwing out advancing aerials loses to a lot of options we have, retreating aerials give up stage control. You can't just wall us without risking getting zoned, you're not Marth.

Spam DAir on us and we will Smash DI above you and hit you with our DAir.

Spam dair on us and we do the same thing lmao. Your logic is flawed, no one is going to spam dair on you and if anyone does they'd be smart enough not to try to hit the full thing.

Wario is obnoxious to us because of his weight and mobility.

This matchup is pretty much who can weave in safely and damage the other. Its been awhile, so I'm not sure what number to attribute this MU.

But our Dair comes out on frame 4, their Clap comes out on frame 8. Plus I think we outrange it by a smidge. So, yeah...

Wario's uair can handle Lucario's dair just fine. Timing is tight but that doesn't mean you don't have to fear it.

Thanks for the explanation. You never really explaned the wario statement though.

On a side note if you hate getting pelted with attacks how do you tolerate falco players?

You're never supposed to tolerate it, you only have to respect it.